Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Quickban

I was originally going to try and sway opinions to keep this, but after playing with it for long enough and seeing its effects, I've concluded this thing has got to go. I agree with a lot of the thoughts being voiced in the thread and I think it's clear how unhealthy this is. The insane amount of 50/50s, the overcentralization, the lack of deep counterplay and status use, the list goes on. For 1v1, it's just not healthy. Everything converges to bulky offense.

That aside, the only real question in this thread is suspect vs quickban. Apprehensive council members will be quick to point towards the z detect fiasco as a clear reason against this, but there are a number of reasons why this is different: 1. Dynamax is broken, not uncompetitive 2. The community is more untied on the dynamax question 3. It's not coming out of nowhere. The reason that I urge a quickban is metagame development. Many experienced players are refraining from playing, laddering, or even building in a metagame they know will be completely upended fairly soon. In addition to this, banning dynamax would allow for competitive play to open up faster without the unease of the inevitable suspect looming. A suspect would end up in a ban, but there would be no point. There wouldn't be much backlash from a quickban and it would accomplish the same task much quicker. We could suspect an unban later, but for now get it out of here!
 
Quickban. I agree with all of the arguments above. However I also believe the issue will only get worse as the meta develops. It's only a matter of time before the best abusers are isolated and once that happens the meta might be dead already. There simply isn't any creativity in the meta right now and there won't be if we don't get rid of this shit. The highly optimized ev spreads that this meta specializes in are just kind of pointless right now. I don't see any reason to suspect this either. Everyone seems to agree that this has to go. A suspect is a waste of time, time better spent developing the meta in a positive way.
 
The reason that I urge a quickban is metagame development. Many experienced players are refraining from playing, laddering, or even building in a metagame they know will be completely upended fairly soon. In addition to this, banning dynamax would allow for competitive play to open up faster without the unease of the inevitable suspect looming. A suspect would end up in a ban, but there would be no point.
This is a great point by Synonimous and captures my uneasieness building in this metagame, when I feel like dynamax is going to be quickbanned soon anyway. The metagame is stalling because of this. So not only do I think we need to quickban because dynamax is inherently broken, but the ladder is suffering, and its sequestering players from 1v1, leaving many players such as myself in an awkward freefall, with 1v1 Classic and VG's Non Dynamax tour being the only things keeping me afloat in the sea of 1v1 interest.
 

Robyn

If you can read this, you are valid.
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
I strongly support a quickban for Dynamax.

At the start of this gen, I thought Dynamax was a quite interesting mechanic, and that with time people would realize it in fact did not overcentralize or negatively effect the meta in any strong way. Instead, what I've seen is the development of an extremely unbalanced metagame of 50/50s and guessing games.

Between the already present Excadrill mirrors (faster always wins!), the extremely random techs (random electric moves for Gyara... gyara starts running Wacan berry... etc.) I see no way that this will get better with time.

I agree with most of the other sentiments here as well, though I don't honestly see too much need to suspect it later. I think it's extremely clear how very unbalanced this mechanic makes the meta.
 
I would totally quickban Dynamax.
We never had something this centralizing. I currently played a total of 74 gen8 1v1 ladder games, which is super low considering that we have a new gen and the hype there was. In the 74 games I never saw a game without Dynamax and in General I have never seen a Gen8 1v1 battle without Dynamax, which on its own is hilarious. Banning the best abusers isnt a way for me because that wont Change anything. Doubled HP in 1v1 is just stupid and mostly the battle wont last Long enough to get back from Dynamax/to normal HP. I had more fun playing my second year of Gen7 1v1 with a ladder full of memes. With that being said pls ban this so we can constructively build and have People like me playing gen8 like the Nintendo Switch games derserve it.
 
Gonna say, a quickban looks in order. Dynamax has pretty much proven to invalidate the main focus of building and preparing in 1v1, and made everything overly centralized about certain abusers of the mechanic. It also invalidates a lot of strategy, since pretty much every Max move is superior to regular moves, and everything can get it. I feel that the match no longer relies on building, and that everything hinges on whether you can predict a Sub, which isn't really something I'd like to see in a healthy metagame.
 

Lkjc

Formerly Lkjchjdhbjidcgjhd
I’m all for Quickbanning dynamax

This mechanic is very restrictive of the entire metagame, removing a lot of possible variety that sets could have with just the basic 19 max moves and substitute constituting 95% of every move used during a battle. If you look at the sets that have been created during the dynamax meta, most are basically the same set with different coverage moves. Almost every set runs a way to stall out dynamax + random moves to attempt to take out as much as you can.
Ultimately a dynamax meta is not fun. Isn’t the whole reason we play this game to have fun?
 
Right now the majority of the people hate dynamax and want it to be quickbanned.
However, most broken mons like alcremie and grimsnarl are really bugged and will be fixed.
As a result, I think we should wait a bit, let the meta develop, and see if the bugs be fixed and then make this decision.
Also, the common argument that dynamax makes everything 50/50 is not true. I have proven this many times with my slow rhyperior.
 
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I say that we should QUICKBAN Dynamax because it is already broken. Doing a suspect test just gives more time for people to abuse the best Dynamax users. Dynamax takes out a lot of fun. What use is a metagame that isn't fun because people are using broken Dynamax pokémon? You could make the best decision in a hypothetical scenario and lose because they used their Dynamax. I DEFINATELY think QUICKBAN.
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
Right now the majority of the people hate dynamax and want it to be quickbanned.
However, most broken mons like alcremie and grimsnarl are really bugged and will be fixed.
As a result, I think we should wait a bit, let the meta develop, and see if the bugs be fixed and then make this decision.
If Dynamax is the inherent problem, what's the point of waiting for the strongest abusers to be fixed?
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
How is dynamax the inherent problem. I only said that the worst abusers are bugs.
If Dynamax is not the inherent problem, the strongest abusers are the biggest problem. Why don't we just ban the strongest abusers, then? Or maybe there's no problem at all in either Dynamax or the strongest abusers, which means that we shouldn't ban anything.
 
If Dynamax is not the inherent problem, the strongest abusers are the biggest problem. Why don't we just ban the strongest abusers, then? Or maybe there's no problem at all in either Dynamax or the strongest abusers, which means that we shouldn't ban anything.
First, I was saying how the strongest abusers are bugs, and are not that strong in reality. However if you would like, we can temporarily ban them.
 
If Dynamax is not the inherent problem, the strongest abusers are the biggest problem. Why don't we just ban the strongest abusers, then? Or maybe there's no problem at all in either Dynamax or the strongest abusers, which means that we shouldn't ban anything.
I'm sorry, what? The supposedly strongest abusers are not why Dynamax needs to go, it's just how broken the mechanic is in general. There's an endless amount of 50/50s and guessing games with your opponent as to if you should Dynamax or not, if they are subbing or not. A lot of people don't find it fun when a meta literally consists of bulky offense as in Max Moves + Max Guard (all status moves becoming max guard). Items in 1v1 are now nowhere near as relevant as in previous gens and now are used to counter specific mons, which makes at team preview one hell of a guessing game. No one wants to play a metagame where a lot of matchups aren't even guaranteed wins and require more guessing as to what your opponent is even using. I serously don't see how you're okay with Dynamax.
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
I'm sorry, what? The supposedly strongest abusers are not why Dynamax needs to go, it's just how broken the mechanic is in general. There's an endless amount of 50/50s and guessing games with your opponent as to if you should Dynamax or not, if they are subbing or not. A lot of people don't find it fun when a meta literally consists of bulky offense as in Max Moves + Max Guard (all status moves becoming max guard). Items in 1v1 are now nowhere near as relevant as in previous gens and now are used to counter specific mons, which makes at team preview one hell of a guessing game. No one wants to play a metagame where a lot of matchups aren't even guaranteed wins and require more guessing as to what your opponent is even using. I serously don't see how you're okay with Dynamax.
Out of context, read my post again. It was a response to maxy's proposal to wait for the strongest abusers to have their code fixed.
 
Right now the majority of the people hate dynamax and want it to be quickbanned.
However, most broken mons like alcremie and grimsnarl are really bugged and will be fixed.
As a result, I think we should wait a bit, let the meta develop, and see if the bugs be fixed and then make this decision.
Also, the common argument that dynamax makes everything 50/50 is not true. I have proven this many times with my slow rhyperior.
Except the issue that most people have is not the abusers but the mechanic of dynamaxing itself. The reasons have already been adequately explained in many posts but here's the short version: It's incredibly overcentralizing, stifles creativity, leads to a lot of 50/50s, isn't fun and adds nothing of value to the meta. There are other reasons too but these appear to be the main ones. The topic of abusers like Alcremie or Grimmsnarl hasn't really been mentioned (except in brief parts in a few posts including mine) because they really aren't the issue. It's like arguing that minimize should be allowed because we can just ban Chansey. It's missing the point entirely.

Also, stating that the 50/50 argument is false and justifying it with one example, of which you provided neither a set nor replays to demonstrate said set, really isn't a good argument.
 
We don't want one liners,
Out of context, read my post again. It was a response to maxy's proposal to wait for the strongest abusers to have their code fixed.
First, I was saying how the strongest abusers are bugs, and are not that strong in reality. However if you would like, we can temporarily ban them.
If Dynamax is the inherent problem, what's the point of waiting for the strongest abusers to be fixed?
If Dynamax is the inherent problem, what's the point of waiting for the strongest abusers to be fixed?

Guys, plz stop cluttering the thread thx
 
I'm sorry, what? The supposedly strongest abusers are not why Dynamax needs to go, it's just how broken the mechanic is in general. There's an endless amount of 50/50s and guessing games with your opponent as to if you should Dynamax or not, if they are subbing or not. A lot of people don't find it fun when a meta literally consists of bulky offense as in Max Moves + Max Guard (all status moves becoming max guard). Items in 1v1 are now nowhere near as relevant as in previous gens and now are used to counter specific mons, which makes at team preview one hell of a guessing game. No one wants to play a metagame where a lot of matchups aren't even guaranteed wins and require more guessing as to what your opponent is even using. I serously don't see how you're okay with Dynamax.
Building upon what is said here, it’s not just the strongest abusers which are the problem. It’s the mechanic in general. I suddenly realised I’m just repeating what was said here not building on it.

Anyway yeah, the strongest technique of beating Dynamax these days is subbing, and if they don’t dynamax then it’s simply down to mind games and 50/50s to determine the win. While I’m normally all for luck deciding the winner every time, 1v1 is primarily a game of skill (is it just me getting a sense of deja vu here). Dynamax just takes the skill element out of it, replacing all your sneaking ingenious move slots with for power shots, making it more like a game of who’s got the higher speed stat and the higher attack stat. If it’s not raw power determining the outcome, it’s Zarel who can stall better, or who can get the dynamax timing exactly right. Even simple wins like Grimmsnarl vs Dragapult can be put down to Substitute luck.

I have seriously run out of things to say and I don’t even know what the heck I’m talking about here so I’ll stop :blobthinking:

Guys, plz stop cluttering the thread thx
This man is a genius
 
i still dont know if it should be banned or not yet since i have been playing for a short period of time.\
however,i can think of 2 mons at the top of my head that got affected by dynamax
:mimikyu:
this guy can curse stall you the same way the previous gen,except he is more annoying,curse d1 and disguise breaks then sub until u r low then max and max guard.
:excadrill:
a good counter to mimikyu btw.anyway,exca has max rock slide paired with sand force and he can destroy alot of things,not to mention having scarf in his base form.
(also when r we gonna talk about gmax)
sorry for the short post i just had nothing to say but i felt like saying something anyway xd
 
i still dont know if it should be banned or not yet since i have been playing for a short period of time.\
however,i can think of 2 mons at the top of my head that got affected by dynamax
:mimikyu:
this guy can curse stall you the same way the previous gen,except he is more annoying,curse d1 and disguise breaks then sub until u r low then max and max guard.
:excadrill:
a good counter to mimikyu btw.anyway,exca has max rock slide paired with sand force and he can destroy alot of things,not to mention having scarf in his base form.
(also when r we gonna talk about gmax)
sorry for the short post i just had nothing to say but i felt like saying something anyway xd
mimikyu is much worse in the non dynamax meta(it only needs protect anywayz). Without flying dmax moves to boost speed and then killing, it will turn into the reason it was banned in the first place.
 
Except the issue that most people have is not the abusers but the mechanic of dynamaxing itself. The reasons have already been adequately explained in many posts but here's the short version: It's incredibly overcentralizing, stifles creativity, leads to a lot of 50/50s, isn't fun and adds nothing of value to the meta. There are other reasons too but these appear to be the main ones. The topic of abusers like Alcremie or Grimmsnarl hasn't really been mentioned (except in brief parts in a few posts including mine) because they really aren't the issue. It's like arguing that minimize should be allowed because we can just ban Chansey. It's missing the point entirely.

Also, stating that the 50/50 argument is false and justifying it with one example, of which you provided neither a set nor replays to demonstrate said set, really isn't a good argument.
my set is my rhyperior set:
asian (Rhyperior) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Solid Rock
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 104 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Wrecker
- Heat Crash
- Iron Tail

this is a replay of me beating a dragapult who used sub to bait my dynamax and then attacked me which i still won even when he crit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1019699957
 

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