More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

Do you support the testing of a Stealth Rockless metagame?


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a 50% HP moltres will not be surviving a +2 LO Quick Attack. It cannot come in safely on Scizor when Stealth Rock is in play.
Oh, Quick Attack... but wasn't Bullet Punch the reason why Scizor is in 2° place of Top Usage?

Yes, how dare we make Ninjask actually usable. It's still beatable by phazing
...if Ninjask not pass to a Pokémon with Suction Cups or Sound Proof, and a PHazer won't live for all the time of battle.

and that Focus Sash only works once
In fact, I said "Substitute/Focus Sash".

Oh, and how about a priority user? All of those speed boosts do nothing to stop Scizor's Bullet Punch from 2HKOing it before it can get the pass off.
The "most used" priority moves effective on Ninjask are Bullet Punch (Scizor, Metagross, Lucario) and Ice Shard (Mamoswine, Weavile, talking about most used Pokémon), if it don't use Substitute...

Or Haze it.
Haze? Who use Haze?

Or Perish Song it.
Remember that Ninjask is very fast.

Except Dragon Dance gives only a +1 boost, and Salamence's defenses aren't as good as chomp's.
Dragon Dance gives a boost also to Speed, and Salamence has Intimidate.

Mence does not have EQ STAB.
But an Earthquake of 604 Atk is powerful.

Mence is not immune to Thunder Wave.
Who can enter and paralyze it without being hurt?

And mence cannot make your attacks miss 20% of the time.
Sand Veil is activated only under the Sandstorm, and with Intimidate and more resistance Salamence can resist more than Garchomp, but there is Stealth Rock... moreover, with 448 Spd after a Dragon Dance, nothing can attack and fail on Salamence first to suffer a sharp loss.
 
Since the beginning of Diamond and Pearl I always had an apprehension about Stealth Rock. 12.5% off if you have no weakness or resistance to it. 25% off if you have one type weak too it and a whopping makes you almost completely unusable 50% off if you have two types weak to it.

In play I've thought it extremely harmful to pokemon selection because you have to always take into account it's "omni-presence" when team building and or damage calculations. One argument people have brought forth is "oh those pokemon who are weak too it, aren't that good anyway". That is not necessarily true because we don't know for an absolute fact unless we test it. I don't know how anyone can be against a "test". A test does not equal a ban.
 
i honestly dont think we should start banning TM's, attacks, tutor moves, or HM's. all because we tested to take out SR. we only took out some pokemon cause either of there amazingly high stats or because we cant find a solid counter. but we have a counter for it, its Rapid spin and we have good pokemon that can use it.

but maybe im wrong all i really think after we start testing it and the vote goes in for SR to get bann then we are going to want to bann other TM's.

then again im just a noob what the hell do i know.

-Haku16
 
I don't know how anyone can be against a "test". A test does not equal a ban.
From my perspective, if you want there to be a test, you have to prove that SR is breaking the metagame as it is right now. Otherwise, we would opening the door to testing whatever is just really good instead of testing what is actually broken. You could do that with Chomp and Deoxys, but you guys haven't proved that SR is breaking the metagame aside from saying that "we can't really use certain types/Moltres."

Stealth Rock takes on turn of set up, and punishes players for making the correct move.
That would only be true if using SR was the best move, regardless of the actual circumstances. Needless to say, that is not correct.
 
If some people are against Stealth Rock being used on 'suicide leads' Then why doesn't Doug or another Smogon Server Admin go in and change the priority of Stealth Rock.

That way no one can claim Suicide Leads make SR Broken as if you can taunt before they set up Stealth Rock first turn no matter your speed and the people who want SR to not be tested can still use it.

This would obviously only work on wifi but I think its a solution that everyone should have no or little problem with.
 
If some people are against Stealth Rock being used on 'suicide leads' Then why doesn't Doug or another Smogon Server Admin go in and change the priority of Stealth Rock.

That way no one can claim Suicide Leads make SR Broken as if you can taunt before they set up Stealth Rock first turn no matter your speed and the people who want SR to not be tested can still use it.
That would be altering the game mechanics which is an absolute no-no. If we could do that we might as well just halve the base damage of the move and call it a day. Not going to happen. Besides, in the scenario you mentioned, nothing is stopping a faster Taunt beat a slower Taunt.

This would obviously only work on wifi but I think its a solution that everyone should have no or little problem with.
I think you mean Shoddy. And no, it would be a huge deal that almost everyone would take issue with.
 
i originally voted for a test but after thinking about it and reading through the posts on this thread i think that i have changed my mind.

the main reason i feel this way is that i don't think anything significant can be learned through a test, surely the metagame would be different without stealth rock, but the metagame would be different without earthquake too and nobody thinks we should ban it.

tests should only be done when you have an over centralized or broken metagame and you are trying to figure out if a certain suspect is the cause, if you don't have a broken or over centralized metagame the test won't show you if the suspect was causing problems because there were no problems to start with.

i think we should stop trying to look for more things to ban (skymin, stealth rock, etc.) and focus more on testing current ubers in OU (lati@s, manaphy, ho-oh etc.) because this is a process which can work in a non-broken non-centraliized metagame
 
i originally voted for a test but after thinking about it and reading through the posts on this thread i think that i have changed my mind.

the main reason i feel this way is that i don't think anything significant can be learned through a test, surely the metagame would be different without stealth rock, but the metagame would be different without earthquake too and nobody thinks we should ban it.

tests should only be done when you have an over centralized or broken metagame and you are trying to figure out if a certain suspect is the cause, if you don't have a broken or over centralized metagame the test won't show you if the suspect was causing problems because there were no problems to start with.

i think we should stop trying to look for more tings to ban (skymin, stealth rock, etc.) and focus more on testing current ubers in OU (lati@s, manaphy, ho-oh etc.) because this is a process which can work in a non-broken non-centraliized metagame
Quoted for fucking emphasis.

I feel the same way. I voted for a test because I wanted to see what would happen, but really, the results of said test would just result in a "different but not certainly better" metagame... and unless it's the last thing we do to OU after we go through Stage 3, it'd be a waste of time; a game within a game, curiosity for curiosity's sake.

That said, I am personally EXCITED to test Lati@s & Manaphy.
 

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If you're really going to argue that you or me have as much knowledge and skill at Pokemon as ipl or Obi, good luck. This isn't a democracy - only who have demonstrated a competent knowledge of the metagame really deserve to have their opinions listened to, and that's how it works in gaming communities. While Smogon may be a community endeavor, it has a hierarchy and those who have a higher place in the hierarchy necessarily have a greater voice than those who are lower.
I'd rather have it be that ideas are judged on their own merit, not the merit of those who put the ideas forward.
 
The metagame is built on Stealth Rock. That goes without saying. If we took it away, that would be a bigger change then the introduction of Platinum.

Obviously, it keeps many threats in check, but it also prevents many from reaching their full potential. A SRless metagame would be very different then what we have now.

I, for one, would like to see what this SRless metagame would look like. But, adjusting to it would just take forever. Imagine all the changes in the tiers, and all the analysis rewrites. We're not even done editing the Platinum changes.

Although, I don't see why we couldn't have a seperate metagame without Stealth Rock. We have a seperate server for the CAP project, why not one for a SR-less metagame?

Bottom line, I don't think Stealth Rock is broken and I wouldn't want it removed from the official metagame, but I'd like to see it tested, and if people want to, we could perhaps have a seperate metagame without it.
 
From my perspective, if you want there to be a test, you have to prove that SR is breaking the metagame as it is right now. Otherwise, we would opening the door to testing whatever is just really good instead of testing what is actually broken. You could do that with Chomp and Deoxys, but you guys haven't proved that SR is breaking the metagame aside from saying that "we can't really use certain types/Moltres."
I honestly feel that Stealth Rock creates 2nd barrier for those pokemon who are weak to it to overcome it. The 1st barrier has to do with the initial typing of the pokemon that are weak to it in question. I'd rather have things played on a more even playing field. Stealth Rock's over-centralizing effects are quite apparent from my perspective. It's mentioned in almost every single analysis(either in damage calculations or if the pokemon is weak to it), it's always considered omni-present, and it's hardly punishable.

However due to the perspective based opinion on it, I don't think that a middle ground can be reached on the subject unless there is a test. Please don't tell me that all of those who voted on a test(not a ban a test) and gave opinions on the matter are worthless. With all this opposition surely a closer look should be taken...
 
This is why you guys need to sit down and do (learn?) math. Go look at the percentage of suicide leads and anti-suicide-leads leading in OU right now. Oh look, that's most of the metagame. All of that is dedicated to putting up, or preventing the putting-up, of rocks.

You say rocks don't centralize? You must not play OU much.
 
@ Haku

Rapid Spin isn't really a counter for Stealth Rock. It has already been said that the Rotom Forms make spinning hopeless for many teams. Meanwhile where on Earth did you get banning TM/Tutor/HM moves? There is a clear difference between Stealth Rock, and every other move in the game.

Stealth Rock takes on turn of set up, and punishes players for making the correct move. Unlike Spikes and Toxic spikes, no Pokemon is completely immune to it, and several types take more damage from it. Stealth Rock pretty much makes certain type combinations unusable. No other move does that.

And yes, maybe some people will want to ban other moves. However, the people in control are smarter than that. They don't put things as a suspect for the hell of it. They put things that are genuinely broken up as suspects.
yeah your probably right.

forget it, i just hate it when people cant get around something so there only hope is to test it for a possibillity of banning it.
 
I support a test of Stealth Rock. It's going to be hard to say something that hasn't been said, but I'm going to give it a shot.

First off, I don't see why so many people are so against a TEST. Test and ban are not synonymous. What is being proposed is a test on the ban of SR to see how the metagame will evolve, and I wholeheartdly agree with this.

...but the metagame would be different without earthquake too and nobody thinks we should ban it.
Yes, that is true. The metagame might be different if we banned growl in some tiny, insignificant way, but that doesn't merit banning it. Earth Quake isn't broken. It doesn't hit every single Pokemon in the game. It isn't a guaranteed 50% damage BEFORE THE ENEMY CAN DO ANYTHING attack. What makes SR so ridiculous is the fact that it takes one turn to set up and can easily do over 100% damage to a team. Spikes takes three turns to be set up to do 25% damage. SR can do 50% in one turn. That's very substantial. Especially if you consider that fact that a Jolly, Timid, Hasty etc. sweeper can then pick off said pokemon with ease after getting hit with SR.

Fire/flying, Ice/Flying, Bug/Flying all take 50% Damage from this on the switch in.

Charizard, Moltres, Ho-oh, Articuno, Delibird, Butterfree, Scyther, Ledian, Beautifly, Masquerain, Ninjask, Mothim, Vespiquen and Yanmega all take 50% Damage.

Now, if we were to look at the list of every pokemon that took 25% damage, we'd be here a while. This move is what I would define as broken. It is gauranteed major damage for a lot of common threats. 25% is substantial in a meta game that is defined by OHKOs and 2HKOs. Add another 25% damage in, and many more sweeper threats arise.

11/14 Teams on the front page of the RMT forum held a stealth rock user. At least 4 of them were leads. This has become a stapple of our Meta Game, and I feel it's not for the best.

Now, some might argue that other entry hazards exist, and we haven't banned/proposed a ban on them. Now, this is due to the simple fact that they are not nearly as powerful a tool as SR. Spikes, as I said, require 3 turns to set up. That's three turns to get blown to bits. If your opponent ever allows 3 turns to set up Spikes, they should be shot. And, even then, the spikes can't do as much as Stealth Rock. Stealth rock has almost wiped away the need for spikes/toxic spikes on most teams now. when DP came out, Spikes/toxic spikes were prominent on a lot of teams, but now, i find myself facing it less and less, because SR is just so superior.

I think that the test on SR will help to show diversify our Metagame. It will allow some threats that recieved a boost from the Advanced generation to stop being owned so hard by SR. It will open up the playing field, and allow an extra slot to explore other options than SR.

In conclusion, I find it important that we remember we are not proposing an outright ban, but a test to see how the Metagame would fare without SR. The metagame will change. That is given. It will change if we remove any move, because there will be at least one person that was using it. However, in the case of stealth rock, if RMT is anything to go by, 71% of the teams exploit SR. It's going to have a significant effect on the game, and who knows, it might be for the better, or for the worse. Only a test will tell, but I feel we will miss out if we don't explore this opportunity.

EDIT:

forget it, i just hate it when people cant get around something so there only hope is to test it for a possibillity of banning it.
This is not trying to bitch about not being able to get around something. SR is taking over the meta game! It is fair to say you are at a distinct disadvantage without SR. I'm going to allude to another game real quick.

In Super Smash brothers Brawl, Metaknight has a glitch where he can stay in his cape and become invincible for as long as he wants. the move was banned because it is obvious that it is broken. It wasn't banned because people couldn't find a way to get around it, it was banned because it was broken. That's what a test of SR will help us figure out. Is SR broken? Or is it just a dominant force in our metagame.
 
This is why you guys need to sit down and do (learn?) math. Go look at the percentage of suicide leads and anti-suicide-leads leading in OU right now. Oh look, that's most of the metagame. All of that is dedicated to putting up, or preventing the putting-up, of rocks.

You say rocks don't centralize? You must not play OU much.
if you read the thread you'd see that no one disagrees that SR is a gigantic force in the metagame. whether it's presence improves or threatens metagame stability is something no one itt can predict.

being important/having presence in the metagame doesn't make anything a suspect. by your logic heatran and earthquake merit suspect testing.
 
stop talking about how articuno would be used more without SR, its driving me insane. just look at the list of OU pokemon. heatran, scizor, salamence, zapdos are the top 4 most used. 3 of those 4 absolutely kill articuno while articuno doesnt like taking a LO DD outrage from sala. furthermore, blissey would still be much better of a special wall. blissey can spread more than 1 type of status (sing, Twave toxic) while articuno can only toxic.
 
I am in full support of a test on Stealth Rock. Whether or not it ends up doing anything to change the current metagame for the better should be tested.

Also, am I the only one that was surprised by this move when it was first encountered and thought it was a mistake? That this is too powerful to possibly even be included in the game? I consider Stealth Rock to be very similar to the idea of using Groudon or Kyogre in the standard metagame. Both of these pokemon have abilities that have similar properties to Stealth Rock (permanent weather) that have a much higher potential power than other abilities. We ban them without question regardless of their base stats.

I think this is definitely something to try at least.
 
Go look at the percentage of suicide leads and anti-suicide-leads leading in OU right now.
Put it this way, if you use a Suicide Lead to get SR up and maybe a Taunt, isn't that worth it to be having your team 5 instead of 6? You could of used something else in that place but used a Suicide Lead instead. Having only 5/6ths of a team is a good replacement for Stealth Rock.
And if the oppenent carries a Rapid Spinner, and switches it in early and you haven't got a ghost on your team, you've basically wasted 1/6 of your team on nothing.

And I saw this sentence earlier:

Charizard, Moltres, Ho-oh, Articuno, Delibird, Butterfree, Scyther, Ledian, Beautifly, Masquerain, Ninjask, Mothim, Vespiquen and Yanmega all take 50% Damage.
The only ones who take significant damage are Yanmega and that's it. The others you won't see in standard play and Ninjask is only ever used as a lead, so it won't be truely effected.

Finally, I wouldn't mind seeing SR tested, but only after Lati@s, OHKO clause etc as I feel as if we keep getting bogged down by things in the way.
 
This is why you guys need to sit down and do (learn?) math. Go look at the percentage of suicide leads and anti-suicide-leads leading in OU right now. Oh look, that's most of the metagame. All of that is dedicated to putting up, or preventing the putting-up, of rocks.
Well, to begin with, suicide leads are retarded, yet I would point out that the general objective for them is to set up rocks and then blow up on something. Under a suicide lead, the theory is that you sacrifice one of your own Pokemon, but you take out one of their Pokemon and get SR up, which gives you the advantage from the get-go, obviously. No one is denying that SR is a significant part of the metagame, after all.

Fire/flying, Ice/Flying, Bug/Flying all take 50% Damage from this on the switch in.


Charizard, Moltres, Ho-oh, Articuno, Delibird, Butterfree, Scyther, Ledian, Beautifly, Masquerain, Ninjask, Mothim, Vespiquen and Yanmega all take 50% Damage.
Oh, boo hoo, cry me a river. Everyone here who is saying that SR is broken needs to realize that just because Moltres loses from SR doesn't equal broken. Yes, certain types gain from SR, and certain types lose.

11/14 Teams on the front page of the RMT forum held a stealth rock user. At least 4 of them were leads. This has become a stapple of our Meta Game, and I feel it's not for the best.
15/18 teams on the front page of the RMT forum had a EQ user. Your point?

I think that the test on SR will help to show diversify our Metagame. It will allow some threats that recieved a boost from the Advanced generation to stop being owned so hard by SR. It will open up the playing field, and allow an extra slot to explore other options than SR.
So, you want the powerful Pokemon from the Advance generation (Gyara, Mence), to get a further boost by removing SR, yet you're convinced that this will diversify the metagame because now you might be able to use Moltres and Articuno. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

In conclusion, I find it important that we remember we are not proposing an outright ban, but a test to see how the Metagame would fare without SR.
Until you can prove that SR is breaking the metagame as it is right now, this isn't deserving of a test. And saying "I can't use Charizard" doesn't mean SR is broken - all of the 50% SR pokemon have huge flaws in their own right, after all.

It is fair to say you are at a distinct disadvantage without SR. I'm going to allude to another game real quick.
From what I've understood, there are people who have managed to get very high up the leaderboard without SR.

I consider Stealth Rock to be very similar to the idea of using Groudon or Kyogre in the standard metagame. Both of these pokemon have abilities that have similar properties to Stealth Rock (permanent weather) that have a much higher potential power than other abilities.
No, we didn't ban Kyogre and Groudon because of their ridiculous stats and moves - we banned them for their ability!!! :rolleyes:
 
Okay so let me see if I understand this... one side says we don't know its broken therefore we should not test it?

If anything is going to prove that side better it would be within a test to prove if it was broken or not, right?
 
MythTrainerInfinity said:
Okay so let me see if I understand this... one side says we don't know its broken therefore we should not test it?
No, one side says "there is no reason to believe this move is broken; therefore, there is no reason to test it."
 
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