Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
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sableye is annoying and broken, disable prot is cheese and basically forces you to counter it to make a "viable" team in this crushed meta.

mew should really be explored more with its movepool before we go any further with looking into banning it or not.

moody? inconsistent af and is really just a cheese joke in competitive pokemon /shrug

:rs/sableye: :rs/mew: :rs/glalie:
How exactly would exploring mew’s moveset make it less suspectable? Mew already is at the levels of absurdity with its ability to do basically anything it wants, with any playstyle, to beat any mom, with its base set suffocating a huge amount of the metagame.
 

pqs

dog
is a Pre-Contributor
How exactly would exploring mew’s moveset make it less suspectable? Mew already is at the levels of absurdity with its ability to do basically anything it wants, with any playstyle, to beat any mom, with its base set suffocating a huge amount of the metagame.
ah yes
it can do anything it want, but it loses out on other matchups and some of its sets are significantly wrose than others when trying to counter-team. i'm just saying i want mew to be explored more before we come to a conclusion of if we want to ban this mom or not.
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
icecat
Why would Sableye use Trick, why would Sableye run Choice item, same with Whimsicott running Choice Specs + Switcheroo
Only other viable mon with Switcheroo is Obstagoon, which already gets Trick
Mental Herb isn't great for shutting down Taunt and Encore, you just get Taunted/Encore again unless you're running weird stuff like Taunt yourself, even then Mental Herb + Taunt Corviknight is worse than regular Sitrus Berry
And stall's already viable, Corviknight is capable of beating many hyper offensive Pokemon and can even PP Stall Choice Scarf Dragapult. Stall already beats many Choice item users, Trick is just a nice tool to have when you don't have a STAB super effective move
 
1. You left out Switcharoo, the most notable user being Whimsicott. So it is silly to say that Trick isn't broken because it can't beat Whimsicott who is also capable of abusing an identical move. If we ban Sableye, then Whimsicott and Grimmsnarl will just take its place.

2. For Trick shutting down stall, Taunt and Encore can be countered with Mental Herb, but there is no item this gen to prevent Trick. Banning Trick, Switcharoo, and Mew should be enough to make some stall sets viable.
I feel like you forgot what Sableye is actually capable of. Sableye is also running Disable and Encore to invalidate Choice users as well as Stall. Neither Whimsicott nor Grimmsnarl can do that and Whimsicott should be running SubSeed anyway.
 
Trick is a viable on Sableye because unlike Encore it is permanent and not blocked by mental herb.

For disable Dragupult plays that role well, so I guess those 3 Pokemon can replace the roles that Sableye does. Sorry I forgot Grimmsnarl only gets Taunt not Disable.
 
Trick is a viable on Sableye because unlike Encore it is permanent and not blocked by mental herb.

For disable Dragupult plays that role well, so I guess those 3 Pokemon can replace the roles that Sableye does. Sorry I forgot Grimmsnarl only gets Taunt not Disable.
dragapult can't give its opponent a choice item unlike sableye. whimsi and grimm can't fulfill the same role at all. also none of those pokemon have access to recovery outside of rest, meaning even if it worked (which it doesn't) it would be wildly inconsistent
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
Trick is a viable on Sableye because unlike Encore it is permanent and not blocked by mental herb.
The purpose of Trick is to Trick on a Choice item. Sableye can't use Trick because it'd need to run a Choice item. This would incapacitate it, being forced to Trick against many Pokemon before it could use its other moves comfortably. Its reliability against Choice item users would also decrease because it would need to survive a hit before Disabling.
 
The purpose of Trick is to Trick on a Choice item. Sableye can't use Trick because it'd need to run a Choice item. This would incapacitate it, being forced to Trick against many Pokemon before it could use its other moves comfortably. Its reliability against Choice item users would also decrease because it would need to survive a hit before Disabling.
Trick on Sableye allows it to win against essentially any Pokemon that Can't OHKO it. It has fling to deal with Choice Users as well. Trick is its best set by quite a good margin, as it's more reliable in more matchups than disable + encore.
 
Trick is not universal, and most Pokemon that have it are not viable. Take a look:
Many Pokemon here that are viable are not primarily viable for their Choice item (and therefore Trick) sets: :trevenant:, :sableye:, :reuniclus:, :mimikyu:, :mew:, and :grimmsnarl:. Other Pokemon are niche: :gardevoir:, :gengar:, :rotom: formes, and :obstagoon:. This leaves three notable Trick abusers: :indeedee: (both male and female, similar enough), :chandelure:, and :togekiss:.

Trick's use is inconsistent in beating SubSeed and setup, as zmasta has claimed. The best SubSeeder, Whimsicott, can easily avoid Trick through its Prankster priority by using Substitute/Taunt, plus scout for attacking moves using Protect. Setup Pokemon like Swords Dance Mimikyu can 2HKO many, if not most, Pokemon on the Trick list. Alternatively, if setup Pokemon outspeed the Trick user, they have free choice after the Choice item is Tricked onto them. This means that they can choose an attacking move after they Trick their Choice item on you, and they might even get a notable stat boost on their attack!

Does Trick create mind games? Yes. Are notable matchups 50/50s? No. Whimsicott easily scouts using Protect; SD Mimikyu can 2HKO most Trick Pokemon without a setup boost. There is enough counterplay, and there is only a select few: Trick is not broken. We move on to the second criterion for bans: is Trick uncompetitive? I've already explained, Trick doesn't considerably decrease the effect of the interaction between player choice and game outcome in a high number of scenarios. This leaves the third criterion: unhealthiness. The only strategy that Trick shuts down regardless of how well the opponent plays is stall. But if Trick 3-0s your pure stall team, so probably will Taunt, why are you using three pure stall Pokemon on the same team?

Trick is just a strategy that a select few Choice item users can use to defeat stall.
Whimsicott is the only sub-seeder that beats trick. You even listed Trevenant as a viable Pokemon that prefers sets other than trick. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

SD Mimikyu again is a very specific example. Most Mimikyus don't even run swords dance, and what about mons like BU Corvinite and Shell Smash Crustle? Sure, you can run protect to make the trick matchup more manageable, but then your sacrificing coverage for other threats that your team likely needs.

Another problem with trick, like you said, is that it allows choice mons to beat stall. You can't just say it loses to taunt anyway, because choice mons aren't supposed to be able to use taunt, that's part of the trade-off of the items. This removes a large function of stall mons, which are typically good counters to choice item users.

I do think we will need to let the post-Mew meta develop before making a final verdict, especially since trick is a fantastic Mew check, but as of right now I still think it could be problematic going forward.
 
Most Mimikyus don't even run swords dance,
this is a lie.
most mimikyus are running Life Orb with Play Rough + Shadow Sneak + Swords Dance + Phantom Force / Shadow Claw atm, as curse has poor matchups against the top tier pokemon. Swords dance is key to this set as it allows it to wall break relatively well. Could potentially be slashed for taunt, but SD is the best option
 
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Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
If you really want it, here's a table of major Trick users vs some SubSeeders, and if they would beat them without Trick:
WhimsicottTrevenantFerrothorn
Indeedeeyes (Hyper Voice)no (usually tanks)yes (Mystical Fire)
Togekissno (usually tanks)yes (Air Slash)yes (Fire Blast)
Chandelureyes (Infiltrator)yes (Fire move)yes (Fire move)
Sableyeyes (no Prankster vs Dark)yes (Taunt)yes (Taunt)
The major Trick users can beat SubSeeders without Trick. The Pokemon that really benefit from Trick beating SubSeed are niche ones like Choice Scarf Rotom and Choice Band Obstagoon. But those are rarer matchups, so the argument's link to instances of player skill is weakened.

Again, Trick doesn't invalidate stall as a playstyle on the whole; it just invalidates a few matchups. Trick prevents your skill from mattering if you're stall... even if you choose . Remember, a core part of 1v1's tiering philosophy is that we do not judge by playstyle (from Gen 7, but still applies):
3) We do not judge by playstyle since this is 1v1. If a Pokemon defeats a stall team in 1v1 it shouldn't be looked into due to them having a lot of choices to pick from and being having only two-third of the team stallish doesn't stop the last member from defeating a more offensive Pokemon. Ex: If Mega Charizard Y defeats a stall team made of Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Mandibuzz it's not the Pokemon that is broken, the team doesn't synergize to defeat common threats in the metagame which is your fault, same goes to offensive teams that loses to Chansey. They are S ranked for a reason.

zmasta is Trick broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy? How does Trick reduce the skill component of Gen 8 1v1?

As ladder stats are useless due to the Dynamax era, I looked up Start Up Tour Round 1 usage stats to see how Mimikyu is used. It's not much, actually, considering it was used only once, as much as Phantom Force or Shadow Claw. The replay list is here, and you can go to http://replaystats-eo.herokuapp.com/ to compile usage stats:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020270692
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020271612
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020273380
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020273802
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020296019
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020297316
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020298311
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020654079
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020656155
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020655574
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020655293
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020745008
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020791775
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020797927
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020799102
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020819706
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020821657
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020824158
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1020827277
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021456921
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021460900
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021463473
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021470166-rjl81m637ebu7jk96gl3zfx6sjmee6gpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021473733-af0k90jf9qzs21uz51dqbcbxrpuctkopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021476563-tgjn6ibgpx06g2dcfwny6c05afoxhnjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021478892-sm25eaveory7vkzh5nr3q0fgbwttoxcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021621761
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021623049
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021623725
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021624482
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021280436
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021281404
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1021291755
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023011346-op7gzjcbnfsb9t4ilg5c87th3xxpyxhpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023007620-z4azsco3f5za3xi99ol6c7346bmjg2tpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023005806-gdv8aib3i1huxd39ge9qyyyqughvi3fpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023003400-v58d036u7h7dv715es6wmrmyimobwjlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023004864-z0e4lerkisa6z0xvncp301d3lw3mrvcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023078888
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023079494
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023080549
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023082318
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023107094
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023108555
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023111624
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023113057
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023567688-c3s72j18xsivdd05ene918peuhq3sznpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023570191-2ucnolg2r5uxnxwq3m5x8n2wto1ehtipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023572071-fqmsvjkxly5tbmsjukjkgd3i4cbevf3pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1023573951-mdyqbwbsjsw9whgpylykewchd4he8cppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1024454023
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1024456254
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1024805774
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1024806339
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1024807238
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1024807985
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025032195
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025033340
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025035347
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025036501
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025047060-zva8n4hyi6h7l9zkgnapzg6hq2bnlutpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025057155
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025058409
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025201575
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025204741
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025206369
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025207323
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025406724
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025407368
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025413340
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025417950
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025740544
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025743142
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025744572
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025746014
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025961156-jw3hrr0yblfx4rty1bb77zyinnvj011pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025962128-kvstnjp4yqnmt5kioixf3y4htwtu7typw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025962955-dz8hkctesxmv9h30purw5x2y5tv2p4cpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1025964066-pvgq8ha5h9cgkmhfrcj3ylxg8g55432pw
 
I think the Trick/Switcheroo discussion is kind of ridiculous. It is incredibly easy to play around even with some stall sets.

Sabeleye is worth a suspect in my opinion. It flat out beats a majority of the metagame with one set and there has been a rise in otherwise niche mons such as Hatterene just to beat it.

Mew may be worth a suspect but I’m on the fence so I’ll just list what I believe are the best for/against arguments.

For
-It’s versatility is ridiculous. It can beat a vast majority of things in the metagame and with it soon potentially gaining recovery it will be even better gain access to bulky sets.
-Its stats are pretty damn solid in the current metagame. While none of them are individually impressive they combine to form a speedy tank.
-Imprison+Transform is the best speed trapper in the tier. A reliable 100 base speed speed trapper(adios Jumpluff) is crazy.
-It can tack on many items to deal with usual checks. Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Kasib Berry being the most notable.
-The meta has clearly shifted around Mew since it is such a solid pick.
-Makes team preview difficult as Mew has so many viable sets.
Against
-While Mew has the potential to beat most things it can’t run every set at once.
-It has reliable checks in Golscipod, Mimikyu(usually), Aegislash, and some Dragapult sets. Gengar is also worth mentioning but it is not great in the current meta and is mostly just a check to Mew without much other use.(And loses to scarf)

Non-Arguments
-If Mew runs X then it can beat Y and this is true for everything!
Mew can’t always run X. It only has one item slot and four move slots. Mew very rarely 3-0s a team right out the gate, if it does you’ve been c-teamed or you have a flawed team.
-I have to run a check for Mew!
Yes as with most metagames you will have to run a check for a top threat.
-We should only ban X on Mew!
Frowned down upon and for good reason.

Edit: Forgot about Moody. A gimmick. I honestly see no reason for it staying but I won’t be outraged if it does.
 
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With the coming of the new generation, I was really excited to hear that the Pokedex would be cut down, because that means that Pokemon of old and new generations would be able to shine. I was also excited about 1v1, as a new meta would form around the lucky few who were able to avoid Dexit. Little did I know that Mew gained Imprison in Generation 8, allowing it to effectively suffocate a vast majority of the meta game. In this post I will explain my personal reasoning as to why I believe Mew is unhealthy for the meta and 1v1 tier as a whole, and why I believe Mew should be banned.

1. Imprison + Transform
Mew's combination of the move Imprison and Transform allows for it to function as one of the best stall breakers in the game, and for bad reasons. The ability to cripple your opponent in two turns is a frightening prospect. It's existed before in the form of Smeargle, but it was not very good due to Smeargle's frailty and lackluster speed stat. Meanwhile due to Dexit, Mew is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier when unscarved, and one of the only Pokemon with a dizzying BS100 in every stat. This means that a Max speed, max HP set has the potential to become the most disruptive Pokemon in the meta. By no means is Mew banworthy for this reason alone, but it leaves Mew in the unique position of invalidating Pokemon who encourage unique gamestyles and laying waste to the remarkably slower metagame than last generation.

2. Vast movepool
Mew gets access to one of the largest overall movepools in the game. This means that Imprison Transform Mew has access to two extra move-slots, which allows for Mew to run coverage moves. This makes Mew an even larger threat because it allows for it to shutdown it's most common check, Taunt. Slower taunt users can't rely on Taunt to shut down Imprison Mew because it becomes trapped by Imprison, and in conjunction with a Mental Herb has the potential to shut down faster Taunt users, and most importantly, Sabeleye who is undoubtedly also one of the best Pokemon in the meta at the moment. The last slot can be used to cover substitute, or run an attacking move, which is problematic for reasons I'll get into later.

3. Offensive & Defensive Potential
Mew can take full advantage of the comparatively more frail metagame due to the previously mentioned BS100 in each stat. This means that you can run a full wallbreaker Choice/Specs set and demolish anyone who expects Imprison Mew, or Pokemon built around other metagame threats. Since Mew is also hard to knock out on the defensive side, if you invest you can beat some of Mew's hardest counters, such as Dragapult and Hydregion by soaking up a hit and returning with a Choiced Play Rough or one boosted by Weakness Policy, depending on personal preference.

Technically any Pokemon in the metagame can do this over their most common sets, but Mew does it to a degree where it can fit on almost any team, and not in a manor which encourages creativity. As an example of a very good Pokemon who encourages creativity, let's look at the MegaZard Twins of yester-gen. While I detest the Zard Twins for their unpredictability, I can't deny that they are both not banworthy. The existence of Z-Moves allowed for creative sets which could counter the Zard Twins, such as Torrent Primarina, Torrent Greninja, Outrage Zeraora, and other off meta picks which could beat most Zard Twin sets. These Pokemon were diverse in the ways they took care of each Zard, such as Primarina's typing being just right, Zeraora's speed and offensive coverage clicking all the right boxes, and Torrent Greninja having a really powerful offensive niche. Not to mention the Zard Twins could not run an item, so their omnipresence was less predictable past the Mega Evolution. Not to mention the Zard twins hardly had much coverage outside of their Fire, Dragon and Flying STABs, which allowed for proper preparation.

That being said, composing a Mew set is largely uncreative because of how Mew fits on a team. A Mew counter's primary objective is to play around Imprison in some shape or form, either by preventing the move from activating, or being able to overtake Mew through the effects of Imprison. Not only is this linear in terms of teambuilding, but a Pokemon designed to beat Imprison Mew can either be OHKO'd by Choice Mew, or be so specifically dedicated to beating Mew that it lacks coverage against a vast majority of the meta. (There are few exceptions to this at the moment, but upon looking at the roster, it doesn't look like many will present themselves) If the Zard-twins attempted to deviate too far from the well beaten path, they would stumble into unviable territories. Meanwhile Mew has the bulk and offense to function as whatever it so pleases.

4. The Shape of the Meta
While the meta is always changing, I feel Mew will encourage the meta to not change because of what it demands and what it offers. Sabeleye can defeat almost every choice user in the game due to Protect --> Disable, who also beats many non-choice Pokemon if running Trick --> Disable. This encourages Fairy and Dark type coverage in order to deal with Sabeleye. Dark types such as Hydregion have the best chance against Mew, but lose if Mew carries any shape or form of fairy coverage (dark pulse can flinch though, which can clutch out a win on occasion). Not a single Fairy Type in the tier can reliably defeat Mew, except for Mimikyu and Specs Sylveon. Maybe Trick Togekiss can beat Mew, but it functions entirely on hax to defeat most opponents. Sylveon doesn't have a chance unless it's specs, which leaves it vulnerable to Sabeleye's Disable. Mew can tank a Modest Max SpAttk Pixilate boosted Hyper Beam, Imprison, Transform, then tank the subsequent Struggles if Sylveon lacks Specs. Other dedicated Mew counters are usually dedicated to Imprison Mew, so Mew has a different set that can counter that and many other metagame threats simultaneously. (Please note that if Mew's sets to counter it's own counters were bad against the rest of the meta game, then this would be a non issue). Mew synergizes perfectly with uncreative strategies, encourages hax, and can be edited to beat some of its counters depending on what's on ladder. I may change my mind on this ban if in the coming months a definite flaw in Mew's game plan is identified and capitalized on, but as it stands currently, Mew seems too centralizing for my taste.

In conclusion (tl;dr):
Mew is unhealthy due to its unique roll of having great bulk, a win condition against most of the Meta, and sets which can counter Mew's most common counters. Mixed with the frailty of the Meta game, Mew can function as a sweeper with a choice item or be the ultimate anti stall, while simultaneously functioning as a stall Pokemon if it isn't OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. It also synergizes perfectly with Pokemon like Sabeleye, who encourage boring strategies to beat Mew's counters. It also encourages Togekiss usage, which inadvertently encourages hax as a predominant strategy. If Mew stays unbanned, so be it, I'll deal, but I don't think it's within our best interests as a community.

Bias Check: I am an adamant hater of stall in this format, as I feel it isn't a fun way to play. However, I see valor in stall's use defensively in conjunction with offense, like Milotic or Serperior in Gen 7. I also hate unpredictability to the extent that laddering is Inherently random in itself, so additional randomness makes teambuilding especially difficult. As of making this post I am ranked #4 on the ladder at 1673 ELO, so I feel I am at least somewhat qualified to give my input on this matter. (Although everyone's input is valuable at the end of the day, the requests of the few carry little weight over the requests of the masses). I should also mention I was active in Gen 7 for a while as well, which is where I got my fill of the Mega Zard Twins.

Edit: Fixed some grammar and fixed an error I made in my explanation
Edit 2: Fixed a mixup on my part and elaborated further.
 
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I'd also like to more briefly weigh in on the Sabeleye argument. I glazed upon the issue of Sabeleye in my Mew analysis, and while I don't like Sabeleye, I can't decide if it's overpowered or not.

Prankster Protect --> Disable is not ban worthy yet imo. While I cited it in my Mew post about encouraging waves in the meta I'm not a fan of, that's mostly because Sabeleye isn't ran to "beat" a single Pokemon, it's ran to beat a item. The sad truth about that strategy is that it will almost always beat Galarian Darmanitan, unless it's Zen Mode, which I predict will not become more popular than Gorilla Tactics. Sabeleye's role as a Pokemon who's purpose is to defeat an item rather than having good or bad matchups makes it complicated to judge.

That is why I'm going to play devil's advocate and make a case both for and against Sabeleye being banned.

For: Sabeleye's access to Protect --> Disable as well as Trick --> Disable removes skill from the game, as a Sabeleye in team preview could result in an automatic loss given you don't have a Dark Type or Alcreamy. One could claim that this is the mark of a top tier Pokemon, but to that I say that Mega Charizard never won instantly from team preview, not unless your team was either extremely off meta or was poorly built in general. Meanwhile the spirit of battling is crushed, as there is no counterplay other than running a different Pokemon. It sucks the soul out of calcs if existing is a counter, and also makes chosing teammates for Sabeleye as simple as covering the weaknesses of your given set. Meanwhile, Grimmsnarl and Whimsmicott (Prankster Pokemon who are blocked by dark types) both have Fairy coverage, which means they may always have STAB, giving pause to anyone with the hope of instantly winning because they have a Scrafty or a Hydregion. There's at least some sort of exchange, hope of a crit, something out of left field. Sabeleye encourages cteaming and has the potential to break the spirit of 1v1 as a whole.

Against: People saying Sabeleye is insanely broken are ignoring the vast amount of holes in Sabeleye's game plan. Trick --> Disable requires Sabeleye to survive with awful bulk. Sylveon can win if it doesn't run specs, and requires clever strategy on both ends to win, making it more than just a blanket counter. People also fail to mention that Sabeleye is weak to Pokemon who run more than one attacking move, as Protect --> Disable can be played around, exposing Sabeleye's pitiful bulk and lack of utility past Disable. Not to mention, it's too soon to say if Choice items will be in vogue this generation. Hard counters to Sabeleye have utility versus other metagame threats as well. People are ignore the fact that Charizard retained the same 50/50 approach to win it's battles, yet it too saw high usage and had counters to both sets, like Primarina or Torrent Greninja. Just because a strategy may be stall doesn't mean it's uncompetitive. It calls upon teams to have more than just offense, and also encourages running more unique sets that don't rely on wallbreaking alone. It isn't bad, just different. There's always a counter play. Assault Vest can even be ran, as the lack of power creep leaves an enticing bulky void in the meta that has yet to be filled.

I hope I brought good points to each side of the argument. If I had to choose right now, I would probably say keep, as there's no reason we can't wait for the meta to develop and bring this discussion up at a later date. Please give your own thoughts! I know my arguments probably have holes in them. I just want what will be the healthiest for the format.

Edit: Changed the preface to more accurately represent the body paragraphs.
Edit 2: adjusted wording and fixed some grammar
 
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While Mew and Sabeleye are still being discussed as potentially broken it is undeniable that they are top threats. There has been a increase in usage of Dark types that went unmentioned until the rise of Mew and Sabeleye. Question is are any of these Dark type mons viable outside of checking Mew and Sabeleye?
I'll bold what I think is actually worth looking at.
Umbreon
Tyranitar
Shiftry
Sabeleye(of course)
Crawdaunt
Skuntank
Drapion
Liepard
Scrafty
Bisharp
Mandibuzz
Hydregion

Pangoro
Malamar
Silvally-Dark
Thievul
Grimmsnarl
Obstagoon

Morpeko
248.png
Tyranitar is seeing basically no usage at the moment. But it is Ttar, it will see usage at some point but I think right now Sawk and CB Mew with CC are too common. It will likely run band, AV, and WP. Will edit in more stuff once I've laddered with it.
Sabeleye has already been talked about in the forum. Fails to check itself unless you're running CM+Sub. Most sets beat all Mew sets excluding Switcheroo v Specs/Scarf Dazzling Gleam.
Bisharp is wack. It basically only deals with Sturdy mons outside of Mew&Sabeleye. Steelix and Crustle w/ EQ destroy it. It's frail and not strong enough to carry its bad typing, mediocre speed, and lack of useful ability. Bisharp has the niche of strong Sucker Punch but it's not enough to carry it to being worthwhile unless your team really struggles with Mew/Sabeleye.
Mandibuzz is a stall mon. It's not a top threat but it gets the job done with good bulk and reliable recovery. Its speed tier is also decent for a stall mon. It can serve as a special or physical wall but it's a better physical one because it has STAB Foul Play and Iron Defense.
Hydregion is actually interesting. 98 is a good speed tier and 125 spatk is pretty solid. Specs and Scarf seem pretty solid. Scarf murks a lot of top threats like Dracovish, Dragapult, Darmanitan-Galar and Aegislash. It also has a solid movepool and decent enough bulk to live some hits. Offensive Mew can kill you if its running CC or Gleam but Scarf is rare and Hydregion kills Mew otherwise, will add calcs later.
D86516B6-0531-4FBF-A5B7-894655099BC3.jpeg
Silvally-Dark worth mentioning as it is one of the only mons that actually checks all Mew sets. Even CB CC fails to kill and 120bp Multi-Attack murks Mew. Icy Wind Helps with the additional chip need to secure the KO. But therein lies the issue. 95 atk/spatk is quite mediocre. I doubt Silvally-Dark will have much use even with its good movepool because its just too weak.
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Grimmsnarl is a prankster mon that doesn’t rely on cheese to win. Bulk Up comes to mind as its best set. Screens also works. Its typing is very good and it has decent bulk along with 120 atk allows it too beat a lot of things in the tier. Sucker Punch finishes off anything that may threaten a 2HKO on Grimmsnarl. By no means a top tier threat but it has a niche.
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Obstagoon is was being sleep on in almost every tier until people realized how good it is. 95 base speed with Guts boosted 90 atk is nothing to scoff at. Obstruct allows you to beat some threats you may not usually. Although, my issue is that Guts takes a turn to activate. Imprison Mew can actually beat it which is disappointing. Obstagoon is worth taking a look at imo but I doubt it will become a sleeper pick like it is in other tiers.

Those are quick thoughts on the Dark types in the tier. Of course time will tell of these mon’s viability but I though it was a good idea to talk about them as most teams now feature one in the current meta. I plan to edit in calcs and sets later once I’ve actually tested some that I haven’t already.
Edit: SlickL7690 has also mentioned viability for Scrafty, see his post for an explanation.
RunWithTheScizors also mentioned Crawdaunt. Their posts are below mine. I now have even less faith in Obstagoon as well.
 
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I think this is a great post! I'd just like to talk about Scrafty briefly, as I believe Scrafty fulfills a niche that no other Dark type in the meta does, and that is being able to check most sets of Darmanitan due to having access to Intimidate. The secondary fighting type also allows it to be able to check many dark types popular in the meta with investment. Losing Knock Off access does hurt Scrafty in such a Knock Offable meta, but Crunch fulfills that STAB role for beating key Ghost types, which is another niche it can fill. Aegislash can't block Taunt through King's Shield, so after a taunt it will be locked into attack form and be liable to being Crunched to death (I recommend a Sitrus or Aguav berry for this role, as Sacred Sword bypasses any defense boosts, so Intimidate is pulling all the work here. Fast Aegislash should also be feared). Cursola also only runs Eviolite, so a Taunt is pretty much guaranteed and Night Shade is ineffective. If a completely Defensive Scrafty is more your speed, then Scrafty gets access to Counter as well. Defensive Choice Band is also an option due to Scrafty having no chance of checking any fairy in the tier, so just go ham on the ones it can win against. Also, because it's part fighting, it can run intimidate against Bisharp and survive an Iron Head, granting the opportunity to KO. It can also try to run Poison Job for Whimsmicott but you'll probably get hit by a Moonblast in the end anyway. Also Fake Out is great chip. I'm done.
 
I think this is a great post! I'd just like to talk about Scrafty briefly, as I believe Scrafty fulfills a niche that no other Dark type in the meta does, and that is being able to check most sets of Darmanitan due to having access to Intimidate. The secondary fighting type also allows it to be able to check many dark types popular in the meta with investment. Losing Knock Off access does hurt Scrafty in such a Knock Offable meta, but Crunch fulfills that STAB role for beating key Ghost types, which is another niche it can fill. Aegislash can't block Taunt through King's Shield, so after a taunt it will be locked into attack form and be liable to being Crunched to death (I recommend a Sitrus or Aguav berry for this role, as Sacred Sword bypasses any defense boosts, so Intimidate is pulling all the work here. Fast Aegislash should also be feared). Cursola also only runs Eviolite, so a Taunt is pretty much guaranteed and Night Shade is ineffective. If a completely Defensive Scrafty is more your speed, then Scrafty gets access to Counter as well. Defensive Choice Band is also an option due to Scrafty having no chance of checking any fairy in the tier, so just go ham on the ones it can win against. Also, because it's part fighting, it can run intimidate against Bisharp and survive an Iron Head, granting the opportunity to KO. It can also try to run Poison Job for Whimsmicott but you'll probably get hit by a Moonblast in the end anyway. Also Fake Out is great chip. I'm done.
Yeah that. I was going to add Scrafty but I didn't know its niche but it seems to be a good physical wall and a Dark type which can actually beat Aegislash, neat!

To avoid making a one-liner I want to talk about Hydregion. Hydregion has a very good speed tier for 1v1 being able to run both scarf and specs. 125 spatk is also very good. Scarf especially tears apart all mons currently in S and A+.
I've also seen a decent amount of Crawdaunt however I really fail to see its niche. It is incredibly strong however I think it's too slow and too frail to work, also only being strong on Water/Dark isn't optimal as it limits coverage.
 
Yeah that. I was going to add Scrafty but I didn't know its niche but it seems to be a good physical wall and a Dark type which can actually beat Aegislash, neat!

To avoid making a one-liner I want to talk about Hydregion. Hydregion has a very good speed tier for 1v1 being able to run both scarf and specs. 125 spatk is also very good. Scarf especially tears apart all mons currently in S and A+.
I've also seen a decent amount of Crawdaunt however I really fail to see its niche. It is incredibly strong however I think it's too slow and too frail to work, also only being strong on Water/Dark isn't optimal as it limits coverage.
I’ve used Crawdaunt, so I can speak for him I guess. First things first, he absolutely crushes stall and slow mons. Choice band adaptability knock off claps mew extremely hard, assuming it’s not like, tbolt. Sableye fears this thing. Any fast, offensive threat can beat him though.
 
I’ve used Crawdaunt, so I can speak for him I guess. First things first, he absolutely crushes stall and slow mons. Choice band adaptability knock off claps mew extremely hard, assuming it’s not like, tbolt. Sableye fears this thing. Any fast, offensive threat can beat him though.
Also CC or Gleam from Mew. I’ll add Crawdaunt and Scrafty to the post. It’s no question that Crawdaunt is incredibly strong but if I had to rank it would be somewhere in C or D. C+-B for Scrafty.
 
(Posted this on VR earlier on accident)

Something that I haven't seen discussed much is a good core for 1v1, apart from your obligatory sableye+mew.
So here's one that I've used to decent sucess.

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- King's Shield
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
(Aegislash isn't really optimised, can definitely be better)

Yes, it's an OU core, doesn't mean it isn't good.
They cover each other's weaknesses perfectly, as in they all resist/are immune to types the other mon doesn't.

Hydreigon deals with Mew/Sableye, as well as Dragapult (Non-Scarf), Galarian Darm and Dracovish (Unless like, haban berry).

Aegislash deals with Pesky Fairies and other mons that think they win because they have super effective moves thanks to weakness policy.

Up to now, this team is kinda weak against bulky water mons, so personally I'd run an electric or grass type in the third slot.
 
Been a lurker for a long time but since this is the first metagame that I've actually really enjoyed and had success laddering with, wanted to share a set that I found really useful.

Weezing-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam/Dazzling Gleam
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt

Originally added it to my team to counter Mimikyu, but then I found out that Neutralizing Gas doesn't get rid of Disguise, which was dissapointing. But it's been very useful as a fairy type that takes out Dragons as well as it hits surprisingly hard against water types and counters Sableye and Grimmsnarl very well.
 

Cantius

I COULD BE BANNED!
Been a lurker for a long time but since this is the first metagame that I've actually really enjoyed and had success laddering with, wanted to share a set that I found really useful.

Weezing-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam/Dazzling Gleam
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt

Originally added it to my team to counter Mimikyu, but then I found out that Neutralizing Gas doesn't get rid of Disguise, which was dissapointing. But it's been very useful as a fairy type that takes out Dragons as well as it hits surprisingly hard against water types and counters Sableye and Grimmsnarl very well.
Welcome! I've made an optimized set before to beat more threats:
Weezing-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 28 SpA / 76 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Sludge Wave
- Overheat
- Thunderbolt

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 96 Def Weezing-Galar: 282-332 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 76+ SpD Weezing-Galar: 282-332 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Speed is for Corviknight.
Overall I think Galarian Weezing is more disappointing than I thought when I was analyzing it. It only has a little more than 300 SpA after a Choice Specs boost which is pathetic. It has nice coverage to beat the top threats but it relies on super-effective moves, and its bulk is less satisfying than you'd think it would be. Its matchups represent an anti-meta Pokemon whose niche is too small to be solid, but nonetheless it can win some matchups against the A tier:
Darmanitan-Galar: win (unless Band)
Dragapult: win (unless Substitute + Disable)
Mew: lose
Dracovish: win (unless Band)
Sableye: win (Neutralizing Gas negates Prankster)
Aegislash: lose
Mimikyu: win
Galarian Corsola: lose
Corviknight: win (unless Sitrus Berry + Protect)
Crustle: win
Haxorus: win
Sawk: win
Sylveon: win
Whimsicott: win
As you can see, it's very set-dependent against the more powerful attackers, once again due to its wanting bulk and limited offensive capabilities.
 
Welcome! I've made an optimized set before to beat more threats:
Weezing-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 28 SpA / 76 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Sludge Wave
- Overheat
- Thunderbolt

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 96 Def Weezing-Galar: 282-332 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 76+ SpD Weezing-Galar: 282-332 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Speed is for Corviknight.
Overall I think Galarian Weezing is more disappointing than I thought when I was analyzing it. It only has a little more than 300 SpA after a Choice Specs boost which is pathetic. It has nice coverage to beat the top threats but it relies on super-effective moves, and its bulk is less satisfying than you'd think it would be. Its matchups represent an anti-meta Pokemon whose niche is too small to be solid, but nonetheless it can win some matchups against the A tier:
Darmanitan-Galar: win (unless Band)
Dragapult: win (unless Substitute + Disable)
Mew: lose
Dracovish: win (unless Band)
Sableye: win (Neutralizing Gas negates Prankster)
Aegislash: lose
Mimikyu: win
Galarian Corsola: lose
Corviknight: win (unless Sitrus Berry + Protect)
Crustle: win
Haxorus: win
Sawk: win
Sylveon: win
Whimsicott: win
As you can see, it's very set-dependent against the more powerful attackers, once again due to its wanting bulk and limited offensive capabilities.
Sableye wins with Roseli berry
 
:weezing-galar:
Weezing-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Overheat
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt
I love this thing because it beats Banded Dracovish and Darmanitan-Galar. Bold is the way to go imo.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Weezing-Galar: 132-156 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Weezing-Galar: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

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