Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Patricick]

Hey yall, none of yall probably remember me cause I was last active here like 3 years ago at this point, but I adored gen 7 1v1 and was an active member in the community during that generation for quite a while. I, much like Christ, have returned from a place that people thought you couldn't return from (employment) to this worldly, sinful world (Smogon forums)

You may be wondering, "who is this moron and what is he talking about", which, ouch, rude, but there is actually a reason I'm making this post. I'd like to get into this current gen of 1v1, but the sample team I tried literally had a banned pokemon on it so something tells me they aren't exactly up to date. Basically, I'm making this post to ask for some good starter teams to try out that aren't too specialized but provide a good matchup spread so I can get familiar with the metagame. I really hope I fall in love with this gen of 1v1 like I did gen 7, but I just don't know where to start right now.


P.S. It's good to see nothing and none of us are changed in the slightest. We're all still getting into heated debates over fictional characters in a children's game, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Btw, ban Draco (an opinion that was decided by a literal coin flip. Heads won.)

 

[Mentality]

Hey yall, none of yall probably remember me cause I was last active here like 3 years ago at this point, but I adored gen 7 1v1 and was an active member in the community during that generation for quite a while. I, much like Christ, have returned from a place that people thought you couldn't return from (employment) to this worldly, sinful world (Smogon forums)

You may be wondering, "who is this moron and what is he talking about", which, ouch, rude, but there is actually a reason I'm making this post. I'd like to get into this current gen of 1v1, but the sample team I tried literally had a banned pokemon on it so something tells me they aren't exactly up to date. Basically, I'm making this post to ask for some good starter teams to try out that aren't too specialized but provide a good matchup spread so I can get familiar with the metagame. I really hope I fall in love with this gen of 1v1 like I did gen 7, but I just don't know where to start right now.


P.S. It's good to see nothing and none of us are changed in the slightest. We're all still getting into heated debates over fictional characters in a children's game, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Btw, ban Draco (an opinion that was decided by a literal coin flip. Heads won.)

Here are the current samples
https://pokepast.es/ece1ef02d96927ff
https://pokepast.es/c5b40322eed418de
https://pokepast.es/406b0ea15f75a2f6
https://pokepast.es/9807bec08ecbcfee

 

[DEG]

I would genuinely like to hear if there are notable improvements to be made to the entire process that we just went through.

Yes.

I would like to address some ongoing concerns regarding the disconnect between the council and the community, particularly in light of recent issues such as the Regidrago complaints being ignored and the ORAS ruling, which goes against survey results. It is clear that there is a significant misalignment between the council's decisions and the feedback provided by the community, and this stems from an ineffective and disorganized process that fails to yield meaningful results.

Key questions arise in this context: What role do OTRs play? What purpose do surveys serve? How should metagame discussions be conducted, and where do they lead? At present, these community-oriented initiatives appear largely ineffective and, frankly, discouraging. When the community voices its concerns and those concerns are ignored—twice—it raises questions about the underlying causes. Is it a lack of understanding on the part of the council regarding their role, a disconnect in communication tools, or something else entirely?

I believe the concept of surveys and OTRs has been misunderstood within the 1v1 metagame. Unlike OU, where an active metagame discussion thread exists, surveys and OTRs are meant to gather community sentiment when no other discussions are taking place. They should serve as a tiebreaker when there is significant dispute. However, the current application of these tools seems to have caused more confusion than clarity.

Moving forward, I propose that the metagame discussion threads be revived as the central place for community discourse regarding problematic Pokémon. If the community is not actively posting, council members should take the initiative to encourage participation. In turn, the council's role should be to lead discussions and listen to the community, rather than dismissing their concerns outright, as happened with the Regidrago situation. The council must recognize that their purpose is to facilitate community-driven decisions, not to override them, as this erodes trust and participation.

Furthermore, surveys should not be the primary tool for gauging community opinion. They should only be used as a supplementary measure in situations where there is a clear need for a tiebreaker or when the council is comfortable enough to initiate a suspect test based on community input. Surveys should not be conducted if there is no intention of respecting the outcome, as this only undermines their validity and discourages further engagement.

Lastly, I believe the OTR should be retired in favor of revitalizing the metagame discussion threads. There is no need to have multiple threads serving the same purpose, especially when one is not as active as it could be. A single, well-managed discussion thread will ensure better organization and more meaningful engagement in the long term.

I trust that the council will consider these points carefully and take steps to restore the sense of collaboration and trust that is vital for the health of the 1v1 metagame.

tldr:
Discuss in metagame discussion > if one option > suspect (should have been the Drago case)
Discuss in metagame discussion > more than one option AND ready for tiering action > survey > if favorable results suspect

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Moving forward, I propose that the metagame discussion threads be revived as the central place for community discourse regarding problematic Pokémon. If the community is not actively posting, council members should take the initiative to encourage participation. In turn, the council's role should be to lead discussions and listen to the community, rather than dismissing their concerns outright, as happened with the Regidrago situation. The council must recognize that their purpose is to facilitate community-driven decisions, not to override them, as this erodes trust and participation.

Furthermore, surveys should not be the primary tool for gauging community opinion. They should only be used as a supplementary measure in situations where there is a clear need for a tiebreaker or when the council is comfortable enough to initiate a suspect test based on community input. Surveys should not be conducted if there is no intention of respecting the outcome, as this only undermines their validity and discourages further engagement.

Lastly, I believe the OTR should be retired in favor of revitalizing the metagame discussion threads. There is no need to have multiple threads serving the same purpose, especially when one is not as active as it could be. A single, well-managed discussion thread will ensure better organization and more meaningful engagement in the long term.

I trust that the council will consider these points carefully and take steps to restore the sense of collaboration and trust that is vital for the health of the 1v1 metagame.

I agree. On average, this discussion thread (which btw, is titled 1v1 Metagame Discussion and not specifically anything in regards to Gen 9) only gets maybe 4 total messages per month, which for a metagame discussion thread... is kinda sad. Currently this would be post #404, with the thread being opened as far back as SS 1v1 towards the end of the tiers life.
Another thing is that this metagame was transitioned to an Unofficial Metagame a few years back (or maybe months? idk i wasn't here for that). This only makes the issue of meta discussion a lot worse given that it's not even an official tier. It's not as popular as something like the Other Metas or Singles Tiers, so the only thing we as consumers and chatters can do is simply wait for someone to say something eventually. Even if it wasn't as popular before becoming a UM, many UMs--if not all of them--are not nearly as common as even some of the least popular official metas.

As for the survey concern:
The fact that the survey results had nothing in regards to Regidrago is kinda crazy to me. Yes, there are other mons that are perhaps more impactful and need to be addressed before Drago, but its controversy has stemmed as far back as DLC 1 with the Drago-Val-Firepon trio of "you cannot win"--maybe even further. This isn't to say Drago needs to be looked at--I fully trust the 1v1 tier leaders to go through the steps needed to address this metagame, but you can't deny the lack of action on it is definitely an eyebrow raiser. The recent survey however, was to look at Hoopa-Unbound and Pecharunt, as well as the ongoing suspect of Iron Crown. After this suspect, and maybe the banning of Iron Crown, then perhaps the SV 1v1 tier leaders will look at those 2 as well as Regidrago for future suspects. They also said that this wasn't the last time they'd look at it, and probably hinted at a future suspect test for it. Keep in mind however that Regidrago has been suspect tested before, and the result was to keep it in the tier. Hoopa-Unbound has been banned and unbanned, and is now an arising concern of it should stay banned. Pecharunt hasn't been suspect tested from my understanding, seeing as it was released in the DLC 2 and was partially overshadowed by things like Archaludon and Gouging Fire (who were both banned).

Let's hope for a better future in the coming months leading to November and the end of SV. There is 10 months and a few days for potential Drago action to be taken. If it is, then it will. If it isn't, then we'll just have to live with it. The same goes for Iron Crown if it stays in the tier, as well as Pecharunt and Hoopa-Unbound. I'll be posting more in this thread in regards to finding answers for these mons to try and make the situation seem more like an unfortunate moment than "Regidrago isn't getting suspected this tier is ass" and "Pecharunt is such an RNG fest that can't die I hate this thing"--or even "Hoopa-Unbound forces me to use U-Turn on everything man why is this thing here"

 

[Kala chasmah]

As for the survey concern:
The fact that the survey results had nothing in regards to Regidrago is kinda crazy to me. Yes, there are other mons that are perhaps more impactful and need to be addressed before Drago, but its controversy has stemmed as far back as DLC 1 with the Drago-Val-Firepon trio of "you cannot win"--maybe even further.

Ye that's where avalugg-hisui was born and I cteamed tgo and 1 more guy's ass in ladder.

The recent survey however, was to look at Hoopa-Unbound and Pecharunt, as well as the ongoing suspect of Iron Crown. After this suspect, and maybe the banning of Iron Crown, then perhaps the SV 1v1 tier leaders will look at those 2 as well as Regidrago for future suspects. They also said that this wasn't the last time they'd look at it, and probably hinted at a future suspect test for it. Keep in mind however that Regidrago has been suspect tested before, and the result was to keep it in the tier. Hoopa-Unbound has been banned and unbanned, and is now an arising concern of it should stay banned. Pecharunt hasn't been suspect tested from my understanding, seeing as it was released in the DLC 2 and was partially overshadowed by things like Archaludon and Gouging Fire (who were both banned).

Well for now and for future until there's no ban on any pokemon (except Regidrago) I feel like and won't make any problems having multiple checks without any issue. What hoopa runs is scarf/band/custap and all of these sets are countered by mons like landorus-t, valiant, Regidrago, Ursaluna, Hoodra, Haxorus, Ninetales-A and list goes on.....
Talking about pecharunt, Sets used are maranga/kee berry/clear amulet and choice band (murm op). It's just a bit annoying due to its ability poison puppeteer but it can be dealt just by using steel ground dark etc. types or leech seeders.

From my side these 2 pokemon's are not much of a problem in teambuilding and not even close/worth of ban.
There's nothing much left to say about this mon as well.... big chuchu, deg and crow crumbs have already explained it in https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ironic-iron-crown-suspect.3758337/

Till the end of SV these 3 mons will remain chill dudes creating no problem imo

 

[glitched]

sure u could run av and risk losing to thinks like ursa bloodmoon while still not beating strong fightings like speed tusk/ the shifus and lose to iron moth
sure u could run snarl and risk losing to any bulky phys attacker or any fast physical attacker
sure u could run wisp and lose to bulky spa
sure u can run scarf/specs but every attacker can run scarf/band or specs its not game breaking
some of these mons havent been tested in 2 years and the meta has changed alot since then with many new mons.
for reference nalei, smely, and rosa (yikes) were on council when this thing was banned
this is like if an ominipotent figure had to build a 1v1 team out of species on earth and looked at humans 200k years ago and decided they were worthless and never used them again even as we evolved and gained new technologies (idk if this analogy makes sense ngl but I thought it was clever)
and you didnt even give a reason why crown cant run specs when mons like sylveon/landorus/greninja run boosting items w worse spa

S Rank
Primarina
this looks like an easy matchup for the primarina to win, HOWEVER
1. you first have to run enough spdef to live modest specs beam
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Hyper Beam vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 324-382 (96.1 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
2. not only this, u have to run enough SpA to KO light screen WP chi yu, although that also loses to Encore Turn 1.
Chi-Yu @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 112 SpA / 112 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Hyper Beam
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse
mod lo prim after a light screen, jolly scarf gross eq, speed for volcanion / gross, rest in spa
3. However, if you DO use Encore turn 1, u have to live 2 modest specs psychics
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 195-230 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4. Your Hydro Cannon can just miss(?)
Chi-Yu @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 116 SpA / 112 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Hyper Beam
saves 4 evs, doesnt beat earth power volcanion



S- Rank
Iron Crown
Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 56 SpA / 172 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Hyper Beam
mod spa booster crown focus blast, def for jolly scarf gross eq, speed for ada gross and also some volcanion



A+ Rank
Corviknight
lol

Hoopa-Unbound
av hoopa wins vs all but idt it beats wp wisp. rest explode to variants of bulky specs etc



Iron Valiant
run chople + 2 fire moves to beat all val i think u lose to subreversal tho unfort

Metagross
good luck



Pecharunt
good luck



Regidrago
idt u beat av or scarf ever but the other sets get giga owned by specs beam


Ursaluna
20% flinch chance from dark pulse good luck
theres also this
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 152 HP / 164 SpD Ursaluna: 475-561 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
so i think u need le av ursaluna

A Rank
Goodra-Hisui
some av set prolly wins vs the fish

Landorus-Therian
av bulldoze / rock tomb + eq landot is prolly the most consistent mon vs chi yu, however u have to bulk this
+1 252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 244 HP / 72 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-Therian: 352-415 (92.6 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (93.8% chance to OHKO after burn damage)

+ setguess scarf since bulldoze doesnt actually ko 0 invest chi yu

+ u are getting flinched by dark pulse

Meowscarada
scarf chi yu


Ogerpon-Wellspring

Chi-Yu @ Passho Berry
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 212 HP / 168 SpA / 112 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Snarl
- Flame Charge
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse

ada oger wellspring cudgel, -1 steam eruption from mod volcanion into same thing at -2 so u can snarl snarl dark pulse, darkpulse twice vs specs. flame charge for oger. scarf volcanion wins.
- Oh but oger can run superpower! no it cant u still have to setguess Chi-Yu's item which is NOT REVEALED ON PREVIEW UNLIKE IRON CROWN



Raging Bolt
Chi-Yu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 8 SpA / 220 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ruination
- Dark Pulse
- Overheat
bulk tbolt tbolt clap from mod booster raging bolt, def for scarf gross, speed for ada gross, rest in spa. can remove speed if want. vs raging bolt ruination ruination dark pulse. last move can be physical eg flare blitz for like sylveon



Urshifu
Chi-Yu @ Chople Berry
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 28 HP / 248 Def / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Nasty Plot
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse

this is overkill but u outspeed non scarf, click wisp > plot > overheat, bulks 2 ada ccs into sucker after wisp best odds (around 5%)



Volcanion
volcanion first has to live a modspecs beam if they r not scarf to even TRY to beat chi yu:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Volcanion: 395-465 (108.8 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
for more detailed explanation read the ogerpon wellspring point. u also need to beat WP chi yu, which clicks light screen and OHKOS u if u dont OHKO them.


Volcarona
u are speed tie vs timid specs if u are max speed if not modest owns u


too lazy to do rest, important mons that beat chi yu are some wake, av shifurapid

 

[True Psycho]

Ye that's where avalugg-hisui was born and I cteamed tgo and 1 more guy's ass in ladder.


Well for now and for future until there's no ban on any pokemon (except Regidrago) I feel like and won't make any problems having multiple checks without any issue. What hoopa runs is scarf/band/custap and all of these sets are countered by mons like landorus-t, valiant, Regidrago, Ursaluna, Hoodra, Haxorus, Ninetales-A and list goes on.....
Talking about pecharunt, Sets used are maranga/kee berry/clear amulet and choice band (murm op). It's just a bit annoying due to its ability poison puppeteer but it can be dealt just by using steel ground dark etc. types or leech seeders.

From my side these 2 pokemon's are not much of a problem in teambuilding and not even close/worth of ban.
There's nothing much left to say about this mon as well.... big chuchu, deg and crow crumbs have already explained it in https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ironic-iron-crown-suspect.3758337/

Till the end of SV these 3 mons will remain chill dudes creating no problem imo

nuh uh not da lando!
136 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
-1 20 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Rock Tomb vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 39-47 (12.1 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO
-1 20 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Ice Punch vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 200-236 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hoopa-Unbound @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 236 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Psychic
- Rock Tomb

just for nerds who are like "umm actually you didnt use 252 atk!", stop talking nerds, here is 252
252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hoopa-Unbound: 328-388 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
-1 4 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Rock Tomb vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 39-47 (12.1 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO
-1 4 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Ice Punch vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (61 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hoopa-Unbound @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Psychic
- Rock Tomb


lando get cooked!
these are set comp lando, of course their bad, set comp i dont like, not real sets like no good hands

 

[Aco2PlaysShowdown]

S Rank
Primarina
this looks like an easy matchup for the primarina to win, HOWEVER
1. you first have to run enough spdef to live modest specs beam
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Hyper Beam vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 324-382 (96.1 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
2. not only this, u have to run enough SpA to KO light screen WP chi yu, although that also loses to Encore Turn 1.
Chi-Yu @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 112 SpA / 112 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Hyper Beam
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse
mod lo prim after a light screen, jolly scarf gross eq, speed for volcanion / gross, rest in spa
3. However, if you DO use Encore turn 1, u have to live 2 modest specs psychics
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 195-230 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4. Your Hydro Cannon can just miss(?)
Chi-Yu @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 116 SpA / 112 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Hyper Beam
saves 4 evs, doesnt beat earth power volcanion



S- Rank
Iron Crown
Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 56 SpA / 172 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Hyper Beam
mod spa booster crown focus blast, def for jolly scarf gross eq, speed for ada gross and also some volcanion



A+ Rank
Corviknight
lol

Hoopa-Unbound
av hoopa wins vs all but idt it beats wp wisp. rest explode to variants of bulky specs etc



Iron Valiant
run chople + 2 fire moves to beat all val i think u lose to subreversal tho unfort

Metagross
good luck



Pecharunt
good luck



Regidrago
idt u beat av or scarf ever but the other sets get giga owned by specs beam


Ursaluna
20% flinch chance from dark pulse good luck
theres also this
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 152 HP / 164 SpD Ursaluna: 475-561 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
so i think u need le av ursaluna

A Rank
Goodra-Hisui
some av set prolly wins vs the fish

Landorus-Therian
av bulldoze / rock tomb + eq landot is prolly the most consistent mon vs chi yu, however u have to bulk this
+1 252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 244 HP / 72 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-Therian: 352-415 (92.6 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (93.8% chance to OHKO after burn damage)

+ setguess scarf since bulldoze doesnt actually ko 0 invest chi yu

+ u are getting flinched by dark pulse

Meowscarada
scarf chi yu


Ogerpon-Wellspring

Chi-Yu @ Passho Berry
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 212 HP / 168 SpA / 112 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Snarl
- Flame Charge
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse

ada oger wellspring cudgel, -1 steam eruption from mod volcanion into same thing at -2 so u can snarl snarl dark pulse, darkpulse twice vs specs. flame charge for oger. scarf volcanion wins.
- Oh but oger can run superpower! no it cant u still have to setguess Chi-Yu's item which is NOT REVEALED ON PREVIEW UNLIKE IRON CROWN



Raging Bolt
Chi-Yu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 8 SpA / 220 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ruination
- Dark Pulse
- Overheat
bulk tbolt tbolt clap from mod booster raging bolt, def for scarf gross, speed for ada gross, rest in spa. can remove speed if want. vs raging bolt ruination ruination dark pulse. last move can be physical eg flare blitz for like sylveon



Urshifu
Chi-Yu @ Chople Berry
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 28 HP / 248 Def / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Nasty Plot
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse

this is overkill but u outspeed non scarf, click wisp > plot > overheat, bulks 2 ada ccs into sucker after wisp best odds (around 5%)



Volcanion
volcanion first has to live a modspecs beam if they r not scarf to even TRY to beat chi yu:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Volcanion: 395-465 (108.8 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
for more detailed explanation read the ogerpon wellspring point. u also need to beat WP chi yu, which clicks light screen and OHKOS u if u dont OHKO them.


Volcarona
u are speed tie vs timid specs if u are max speed if not modest owns u


too lazy to do rest, important mons that beat chi yu are some wake, av shifurapid

1. Im prim I click endure t1 vs chi yu
2. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 172 SpD Chi-Yu: 306-360 (97.7 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO. honestly u could have just idk ran max speed but u decided to pull out bs sets instead so
3. 252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 133-157 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 48 HP / 16 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-297 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 192 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 332-392 (132.2 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Could u win with chople maybe but hoopa should recover enough w drain punch
4. Scarf meow beats scarf shifu, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Meowscarada Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 270-318 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO should beat others besides maybe bulkier versions but they should drop to giga impact band
5. Chi yu loses to leech seed, 168+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 52 HP / 184 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 261-307 (83.1 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and while u do have snarl u dont do enough with snarl bc you destroyed ur spa with overheat. the only way you beet leech is with scarf which drops to ivy cudgel
6. yeah u win against raging bolt but ur just running a bad set atp
7. im scarf urshifu
8. forgive me bc I dont know what evs ur running but 8 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 109-129 (30 - 35.5%) -- 24.4% chance to 3HKO so u need a screen turn + 3 dark pulse and I just sludge wave t1+t2 and kill with steam t3 (if u give me evs proving me wrong ill delete this point)
9. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. +1 252 HP / 16 SpD Volcarona: 301-355 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
bulks after quiver dance and kills due to swarm (+1 64 SpA Life Orb Swarm Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 329-387 (131 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
so you beat 3 of the top mons consistently and the rest can win (without weird sets which u seem to be running at times to counter these) dont seem broken to me

 

[LongRat]

4. Scarf meow beats scarf shifu, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Meowscarada Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 270-318 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO should beat others besides maybe bulkier versions but they should drop to giga impact band

Scarf Meow is a joke and Specs is borderline unviable

Also most of ur sets that beat Chi-Yu are only one of many. Being funnelled into a couple sets because of one mon is practically the definition of a broken mon.

 

[Aco2PlaysShowdown]

Scarf Meow is a joke and Specs is borderline unviable

Also most of ur sets that beat Chi-Yu are only one of many. Being funnelled into a couple sets because of one mon is practically the definition of a broken mon.

scarf volcanion wins too but I didnt include it

 

[glitched]

1. Im prim I click endure t1 vs chi yu
2. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 172 SpD Chi-Yu: 306-360 (97.7 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO. honestly u could have just idk ran max speed but u decided to pull out bs sets instead so
3. 252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 133-157 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 48 HP / 16 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-297 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 192 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 332-392 (132.2 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Could u win with chople maybe but hoopa should recover enough w drain punch
4. Scarf meow beats scarf shifu, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Meowscarada Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 270-318 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO should beat others besides maybe bulkier versions but they should drop to giga impact band
5. Chi yu loses to leech seed, 168+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 52 HP / 184 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 261-307 (83.1 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and while u do have snarl u dont do enough with snarl bc you destroyed ur spa with overheat. the only way you beet leech is with scarf which drops to ivy cudgel
6. yeah u win against raging bolt but ur just running a bad set atp
7. im scarf urshifu
8. forgive me bc I dont know what evs ur running but 8 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 109-129 (30 - 35.5%) -- 24.4% chance to 3HKO so u need a screen turn + 3 dark pulse and I just sludge wave t1+t2 and kill with steam t3 (if u give me evs proving me wrong ill delete this point)
9. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. +1 252 HP / 16 SpD Volcarona: 301-355 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
bulks after quiver dance and kills due to swarm (+1 64 SpA Life Orb Swarm Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 329-387 (131 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
so you beat 3 of the top mons consistently and the rest can win (without weird sets which u seem to be running at times to counter these) dont seem broken to me

enduring vs chi yu is still a 5050 vs specs since they can psychic

imean i assumed that people already knew about maxmax chi yu so i gave examples of non maxmax but ok

pretty sure wisp plot chi yu wins since they have to knock into drain punch to remove ur wp

doesnt that die to spdef specs? its not exactly reliable as a beats all chi yu counter

click flame charge vs ogerpon wellspring

av was more real in flutter meta i agree but its still an example of how far stretched chi yu can be

the set i posted does live a scarf shifu cc and ohko back with overheat

use the wp set above, sludge wave 3x into steam is a 44% chance to ohko

u outspeed the volcarona and kill it

 

[Aco2PlaysShowdown]

enduring vs chi yu is still a 5050 vs specs since they can psychic

imean i assumed that people already knew about maxmax chi yu so i gave examples of non maxmax but ok

pretty sure wisp plot chi yu wins since they have to knock into drain punch to remove ur wp

doesnt that die to spdef specs? its not exactly reliable as a beats all chi yu counter

click flame charge vs ogerpon wellspring

av was more real in flutter meta i agree but its still an example of how far stretched chi yu can be

the set i posted does live a scarf shifu cc and ohko back with overheat

use the wp set above, sludge wave 3x into steam is a 44% chance to ohko

u outspeed the volcarona and kill it

my volcarona is 300 speed, urs is 299
if u psychic I calm mind/hydro cannon
wisp loses to specs, all chi yu lose to spa invest scarf
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 393-463 (156.5 - 184.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, u could run 252 hp 252 def to win but atp ur just running a bad set (which as we established w crown does not make smth good)
ok I trailblaze t1 with offensive pon and win
u win against urshifu (the dark one at least) but the opportunity cost is not worth running at all but now u lose to ursaluna which u countered earlier as well as losing to ogerpon (which again u countered earlier) and also losing to things like zapdos (which im pretty sure u beat earlier)

 

[crow crumbs]

This nonsense is being taken way more seriously than it deserves. Aco2’s argument is mainly based on the fact that the council members (who he shaded personally for no reason? like what?) during the ban are no longer on the current council.

Taking a moment to remember that Pokemon is a game played with Pokemon and not Smogon Members, it can be observed that the only major new hurdles for chi-yu are wellspring, raging bolt and probably hoodra. This issue is not even that all of these mons share a lot of checks like hands, max def luna, drago. It’s that they all win the matchup by statchecking chi-yu.

It is still very clear that the traditional ways of blanking strong attackers still fail against chi-yu. There is no way to setup on chi-yu. There is no way stall it out after tricking it. There are very few custap users that can reliably fight back. There is 1 subseeder that can handle most (but not all) chi-yu sets.

You can say that the sets jumping through 6 hoops to beat bolt/pon/prim are bad (and they likely are), but the reason that Chi-Yu is still able to do this against nearly the entire vr is indicative of a deficiency. Almost all of Chi-Yus checks can only give it 1 turn of action at most and they live or die on whether or not their move kos. The counterplay (and counter-counterplay) remains the same despite the passage of time.

Anyway I took the bait like a chump. Let’s go back to real 1v1 now ^_^

 

[Aco2PlaysShowdown]

This nonsense is being taken way more seriously than it deserves. Aco2’s argument is mainly based on the fact that the council members (who he shaded personally for no reason? like what?) during the ban are no longer on the current council.

Taking a moment to remember that Pokemon is a game played with Pokemon and not Smogon Members, it can be observed that the only major new hurdles for chi-yu are wellspring, raging bolt and probably hoodra. This issue is not even that all of these mons share a lot of checks like hands, max def luna, drago. It’s that they all win the matchup by statchecking chi-yu.

It is still very clear that the traditional ways of blanking strong attackers still fail against chi-yu. There is no way to setup on chi-yu. There is no way stall it out after tricking it. There are very few custap users that can reliably fight back. There is 1 subseeder that can handle most (but not all) chi-yu sets.

You can say that the sets jumping through 6 hoops to beat bolt/pon/prim are bad (and they likely are), but the reason that Chi-Yu is still able to do this against nearly the entire vr is indicative of a deficiency. Almost all of Chi-Yus checks can only give it 1 turn of action at most and they live or die on whether or not their move kos. The counterplay (and counter-counterplay) remains the same despite the passage of time.

Anyway I took the bait like a chump. Let’s go back to real 1v1 now ^_^

i didnt diss any members lol I was pointing out how since chi yu has been banned half the council has retired and that we have never thought to retest it. I provided evidence to disprove the claims made my glitched
I didnt even mention (for the most part) the good ground types/ rock types/ fighting types that beat this thing like boulder and a-hisui)

 

[Kala chasmah]

136 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
-1 20 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Rock Tomb vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 39-47 (12.1 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO
-1 20 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Ice Punch vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 200-236 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hoopa-Unbound: 328-388 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
-1 4 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Rock Tomb vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 39-47 (12.1 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO
-1 4 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Ice Punch vs. 8 HP / 196 Def Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (61 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bro thinks he cooked.... There's no use of bulking hoopa with max max hp def when u can't ko with ice punch after 1 speed drop on landorus-t.
Uh when I use basic mathematics, rock tomb + ice punch damage according to ur calc is 14.6 + 73.5 (highest rolls) = 88.1%.

 

[True Psycho]

Bro thinks he cooked.... There's no use of bulking hoopa with max max hp def when u can't ko with ice punch after 1 speed drop on landorus-t.
Uh when I use basic mathematics, rock tomb + ice punch damage according to ur calc is 14.6 + 73.5 (highest rolls) = 88.1%.

you dumbass we have rocky helmet

thats 16-17% damage + the 88.1%

thats 104% total damage, that lando got it's 100% LOL
104% > 100%
you dumbass, read that full set L

 

[abdiqate]

I hit high 1500s with this team like 3 times, specs pz is my goat i would kiss them if i could


Dondozo @ Choice Band
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Wave Crash
- Heavy Slam

Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Uproar

Iron Hands @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 152 HP / 84 Atk / 56 Def / 216 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Supercell Slam
- Close Combat
- Earthquake

 

[Kala chasmah]

you dumbass we have rocky helmet
View attachment 707440
View attachment 707441
thats 16-17% damage + the 88.1%
View attachment 707443
thats 104% total damage, that lando got it's 100% LOL
104% > 100%
you dumbass, read that full set L

naa this set is cringe! Me and Tgo used to use this when there was no u-turn shit in meta and we wanted to survive choice banded close combat move.
Now about the set ur talking, Not every Landorus-Therian needs U-turn to fight vs
Just to counter 1 mon (where winning chance is like 1-2%), you are just ruining other matchups with no assault vest or any choice item.
Banded/Life Orb/Av any sort of set can clap ur set.

Banded Landorus-T
0 Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hoopa-Unbound: 220-259 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hoopa-Unbound: 408-484 (112 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Damage In return by hoopa-u if u are able to outspeed even after 1 speed drop (WHICH ISN'T POSSIBLE)
-1 0 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Rock Tomb vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 48-57 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
-1 0 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Ice Punch vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 240-284 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

LO Landorus-T
No Need Of U-Turn when u can just win by clicking bulk up t1 or eq t1

AV Landorus-T
Buldoze + Earthquake and ur dead

Don't even think to disrespect again by saying walls it

Iron Hands @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 152 HP / 84 Atk / 56 Def / 216 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Supercell Slam
- Close Combat
- Earthquake

I would like to request you to add heavy slam in your iron hands set or else can be a problem. gz for reaching 1500!

my volcarona is 300 speed, urs is 299
if u psychic I calm mind/hydro cannon
wisp loses to specs, all chi yu lose to spa invest scarf
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 393-463 (156.5 - 184.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, u could run 252 hp 252 def to win but atp ur just running a bad set (which as we established w crown does not make smth good)
ok I trailblaze t1 with offensive pon and win
u win against urshifu (the dark one at least) but the opportunity cost is not worth running at all but now u lose to ursaluna which u countered earlier as well as losing to ogerpon (which again u countered earlier) and also losing to things like zapdos (which im pretty sure u beat earlier)

I would say the same thing what driplegend said that if u think chi-yu isn't that good/balanced, ask RADU to make 1 ubers chi-yu thread thing if it's possible (completely bad idea though lol). I would say start checking this metagame discussion thread from page 1 and you will see what sort of sets were made and why it got banned? The sets made are still viable and broken or not?
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/inferno-chi-yu-quickbanned.3714580/

 

[fruan]

Water types not named primarina seem extremely good right now (might be the most overrated pokemon in the tier).
and friends are insanely good. Blastoise especially. Run life orb and watch it delete stuff.

Blastoise @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 24 HP / 236 Def / 204 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Cannon
- Hyper Beam
- Substitute

this pokemon also fell of hard, is king again.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 116 HP / 48 Atk / 252 SpD / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Bulldoze
- Rock Tomb

my favorite set:

Corviknight @ Maranga Berry
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 204 HP / 224 SpD / 80 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Taunt
- Roost
- Iron Defense

I agree with bobobson that is top tier. Insane preview pressure and its choice sets are useable. Not a fan of overly quirky sets though, just play into the pokemons strengths and its solid.

is still stupid, mostly cause its ability is so rng-creating. Way too many dark type pokemon lose if they get a single confusion hit and given its a pecharunt its always getting at least 1 malignant chain off.

 

[RTM]

quick s to a-

S
- has a lot in terms of raw mus, extremely versatile, really useful matchup spread, nothing comes very close to hoopau.

S-

I think s- as a tier is pretty unnecessary. I'm okay with it existing, I just dislike placing anything s- personally. if something naturally ends up s- from A+ and S votes, i'm fine with it, voting s- just feels like fence sitting to me.

A+

- really solid, useful, practical matchups. prone to being teched which is usually circumvented by not running wp or spa booster.
- good matchups into meta, can change its moveslots/item to beat a lot in a similar vein to dragapult.
- like spectrier with less guaranteed core mus but has more options to beat whatever it wants.
- genuinely stupid strong. beats a ton between band, normal gem, lo, and liechi reversal. easy to disguise on preview and its sets have different counterplay.
- very good top tier mus and just strong in its own regard.
- band and specs being somewhat expected rn open it up to a lot of non-booster/choice options. definitely underexplored still.

A

- just regular strong. fairies aren't super good rn and things like hoopa, spect, zap, pult are seeing lots of usage. Still good because it naturally has its place on a lot of structures.
- has pretty strong matchups but has a pretty major downfall of all its sets losing to the same stuff, making it fairly techable.
- good staller because it's not too passive. can run offensive sets like av or nasty plot to catch people off guard.
- about the same as it was pre- drago ban. is stuck using spa booster which sucks for it.
- beats good stuff as is the norm for volcarona in 1v1.
- mid tier farmer, useful to build around and can run like 4 items viably.
- pretty bad vs top tiers, but good into what most people spam.
- specs is still pretty strong.
- idk how entei is still going under the radar. it beats a ton and punishes people running choice mons which is pretty common.

A-

- fell off pretty hard. i find it quite hard to justify using prim right now. it feels like you need 2x water move + moonblast + cm + icy wind + encore for any matchup to be reliable, which for the observant of us, is 6 moves.
- has its place in the meta, just not very strong into current trends. can still beat whatever but i think it genuinely faces pretty big opportunity cost deviating from encore + coverage.
- just dark here. water typing is nice to have but shifu dark beats most crown, spect, pult and pecha which gives it a huge edge.
- pao is in a nice place rn, choice kills the entire meta and lo can catch mons off guard in tours.
- mid tier farmer, fundamentally easy to build around, not super techable against.
- water types feel very strong rn, wake has a few strong options and generally can just ohko a lot of threats.
- great matchup spread that is a little unrealised due to people only running scarf.

 

[fruan]

One last thing: I am tired of the uncertainty that brings.
Yes this pokemon is beatable. Yes, its defense is terrible.
But when you're staring it down at preview unless you have a few very specific counters it never feels safe to click versus it.
It totally may be a skill issue on my end, but this pokemon is just not fun from a teambuilding and playing perspective.
Its raw versatility means that you can't outbulk it on the physical or special side and all it needs to do to 3-0 so many teams is just randomly slot in a coverage move or trick or something random, etc.

 

[Lumii]

One last thing: I am tired of the uncertainty that brings.
Yes this pokemon is beatable. Yes, its defense is terrible.
But when you're staring it down at preview unless you have a few very specific counters it never feels safe to click versus it.
It totally may be a skill issue on my end, but this pokemon is just not fun from a teambuilding and playing perspective.
Its raw versatility means that you can't outbulk it on the physical or special side and all it needs to do to 3-0 so many teams is just randomly slot in a coverage move or trick or something random, etc.

I was going to write a post about this thing tomorrow, but I'll just make a shorter one to say that I agree. Hoopa-U is way too versatile and it's not healthy when a lot of the argument for keeping this Pokemon comes down to it losing to random Bug-type moves. I really do not want to build in a metagame in which this Pokemon is likely the best Pokemon in the tier, and really would not want to see this thing be around for PL.

 

[Mentality]

I will probably write a more streamlined and expansive version of this later, but we don't need any action on Hoopa-U.

The versatility of a mon always has to be weighed with the opportunity cost of each set and the fact that it cannot be every set at once. People overcomplicate mons with any amount of set diversity, and this is no exception. Looking at its main sets (AV, Specs, Band, Custap, Scarf) all of them lose a good few core matchups while typically gaining less. You can reasonably split your hoopa checks to cover less likely sets, this mon loses all aura on preview immediately. Further, nicher sets (Things like fast taunt sets, mixed LO) are even worse at preserving core matchups. At that point, the ambiguity of its previews is directly a disadvantage for it.
It is obviously the best dark type in the tier and nearing the best psychic, and possibly the highest skill mon in the tier, but it's not broken and doesn't need action imo.

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

just ban Multiscale pls instead of Dragonite


Its basically complex ban territory but quite literally 2 mons get Multiscale (the other being fucking lugia) so I don’t really know why Dragonite is being gatekept like this zero reason

 

[LemonLime78]

just ban Multiscale pls instead of Dragonite


Its basically complex ban territory but quite literally 2 mons get Multiscale (the other being fucking lugia) so I don’t really know why Dragonite is being gatekept like this zero reason

Do we tell him?