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Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
SolarflareRo a few points here and there:
Kyurem-Black W/L (u lose to band u beat specs with yache u also beat scarf without anything)
Don't you just win a majority of the time by fishing for confusion with 2 or 3 Subs (50% confusion back in gen 5)?

Porygon-Z W/L (mostly L) scarf is a W but its a 50 50 vs custap and L vs specs
Specs can be bulked for but your particular set isn't so that's fair

Garchomp W
Dual Chop EZ

Haxorus W/L u beat scarf but u lose to band252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Whimsicott: 310-366 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after
Same deal as Kyub

Hydreigon W/L u go for protect and scout to see if he goes for fire blast or draco meteor and u sub if he goes for draco and if he fire blasts u die or survive (u lose if u are not occa)
The odds of them hitting all 5 Blasts are 44.37%

B-
Archeops L dies to head smash (u can sub untill he misses but its almost a 50 50 and u can miss too)
32.768% chance to hit all 5 Smashes

Durant L (just like archeops)
Indeed just like archeops (unless Swarm)

Scizor L
Only Banded/LO

Heracross L
Assuming the worst these run to hurt you with is Megahorn, it's the same deal as Hydreigon

Abomasnow W/L yache
This is a grass type

Dusclops W/L i saw ima use snatch dusknoir but idk
Snatch would only steal Substitute, still gets decked by Taunt

Quagsire
Didn't even say anything here-

Chandelure W/L
Should be a majority W, since Infiltrator suq in gen 5 and Fire Blast can miss, though Flamethrower is a stinky and maybe Taunt exists?

Toxicroak L
Needs Adamant Banded Poison Jab or Specs

D
Escavalier L
Same deal as Heracross
Encore is also a good move

That said, I don't really have too much stock in BW, having never played it much beyond a couple room tours, however, I will say that Whimsicott is a bit absurd in non-sm metagames where Taunt is actually an uncommon move and Sound moves don't bypass Sub. Bright Powder Grasswhistle is also slept on (c;), since even though it sacrifices the wins you had with the defensive berries, you now have a ~Focus Blast hitting chance of beating common offensive "counters" like Genesect, Volcarona, Victini, etc. And God forbid you go down the ORAS route of removing Species Clause-
 
victini depends on whether or not you protect twice. Don't forget banded Rock Blast Rhyperior, Crustle, and Icicle Spear Mamo/Cloyster which can do break sub then do direct damage. But, also don't forget grasswhistle exists to essentially turn every non grass type mu into a 55/45
You can also sub repeatedly on durant until x scissor misses, meaning whimsi wins 66% of the time, anyway. My personal list of real counters would be:
Ferrothorn
Breloom
Celebi
Shaymin
Venusaur
Virizion

Yeah I also think Whimsicott is busted and deserves a suspect test. A lot of the time, the best whimsicott answer on a team is going to be your own whimsicott, just sped crept up a bit so it can taunt first. That is not healthy at all.


I think there hsould be a suspect or something because it's quite broken. An your oponent can just play mind games on what you will pick just to counter whims. Litteraly covers the whole meta into 1 mon
 
I do not think whimsicott is good enough to be suspected for a few reasons but if it gets suspected the reason should never be it has too many sets because it clearly dosent the only thing u can switch is the item also the move set should always be leech seed,sub,protect and taunt u could replace taunt with grass whistle or cotton guard but that dosen't help u with anything big the only thing it does is beat a few kyub sets and 1 or 2 mons (band if u are cotton guard and specs if u are grass whistle but u have to guess the set and even if u do u wont win 100% of the time because u have to hit and hope it dosent wake up) while taunt helps u beat other whimsis and other taunt mons (jellicent,sableye non choiced keldeo and much more nicher mons )

also a better list of what syno did

(the set i use to determine if u lose or not)
Whimsicott @ Occa Berry/yache
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def 4 sp def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Taunt
(0 speed just evs just to put more in def)

W-win
L-lose
W/L- u win vs some sets

S
jirachi W u protect to scout the trick and taunt/sub if he does go for it if not just seed

A+
Dragonite W/L u lose to special but u beat band (life orb special d nite is better and more used imo )

Genesect L

Kyurem-Black W/L (u lose to band u beat specs with yache u also beat scarf without anything)

Porygon-Z W/L (mostly L) scarf is a W but its a 50 50 vs custap and L vs specs

Rhyperior W/L u get clapped by band rock blast and win vs rock wrecker
A
Cresselia W

Garchomp W

Heatran W/L (mostly L) u can get taunted if ur not careful u can also get overheated (but u can use occa) but even if u are occa u still die to fire gem/specs flame thrower

Latios W

Manaphy W

Meloetta W

Mew W just scout to see what set it is and if it isnt some ice beam+taunt set u win

Sawk W

Jumpluff W

Whimsicott W/L if u want to speed creep u should use more than 16 speed evs but even 12 is enought

A-
Alakazam L magic guard rof

Chansey W

Gengar L

Golem W

Jellicent W fuck the guy that was using mental herb jellicent on the ladder to counter this

Keldeo W u should protect and see if he taunts or secret swords and if he does show taunt u win bcs he can't taunt u and he cant 2 shot (if he is Fighting gem u could lose) but if he goes for secret sword and he is taunt it is a 50 50 its heavily in ur favour tho

Landorus-Therian W

Metagross W

Reuiniclus L (it has magic guard so he can't lose hp and u can't recover hp with leech seed

Tyranitar W unless some taunt set and then its a 50 50

Volcarona L u die to bug buzz so occa dosen't matter but u can win if ur opponent thinks bug buzz goes through sub and he goes for quiver dance (it dosent work like that in gen 5)

B+
Crustle W/L u lose to shell smash+rock blast but u beat non rock blast

Ferrothorn L

Gyarados W

Haxorus W/L u beat scarf but u lose to band252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Whimsicott: 310-366 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after

Hydreigon W/L u go for protect and scout to see if he goes for fire blast or draco meteor and u sub if he goes for draco and if he fire blasts u die or survive (u lose if u are not occa)

Magnezone W

Scrafty W

Suicune W

Terrakion W

Umbreon W

B
Bronzong W

Breloom L

Celebi L

Empoleon W

Excadrill W

Gastrodon W

Latias W

Registeel W

Starmie W

Victini L

B-
Archeops L dies to head smash (u can sub untill he misses but its almost a 50 50 and u can miss too)

Cobalion W

Durant L (just like archeops)

Landorus L 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Whimsicott: 372-439 (114.8 - 135.4%)

Murkrow W/L idk what spread it uses but if its max speed u can taunt whimsi

Politoed W/L i assume it ussualy uses specs 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Whimsicott: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers

Porygon2 W

Rotom-Heat W (occa berry/ subing vs overheat)

Sableye W

Scizor L

Shaymin L

Snorlax W

Venusaur L

Virizion L

Zapdos W/L it can be specs or life orb but if it isnt u win (u can also use occa)
252+ SpA Life Orb Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Whimsicott: 348-411 (107.4 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
C+
Amoonguss L

Blissey W

Carracosta W

Cofagrigus W

Darmanitan W/L u lose 100% unless occa and u have to hope he isnt life orb or band (the only set u beat is scarf)

Galvantula L

Heracross L

Hippowdon W

Kingdra W/L roll if u are not yache

Moltres L

Raikou W

Rotom-Wash W

Slowking W

Togekiss W

Tornadus-Therian L (it can miss

C
Abomasnow L

Arcanine W/L occa

Azumarill W maybe L cuz sap sipper do not use it tho

Charizard W/L occa (air slash dosent kill)

Dusclops W/L i saw ima use snatch dusknoir but idk

Infernape W/Locca

Krookodile W

Lapras W/L yache and it is a roll (no yache) but u can use ice gem or something 252+ SpA Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Whimsicott: 294-348 (90.7 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Mamoswine W/L ice gem vs no yache wins but its more likely a win

Salamence W/L if it is specs hp flying kills but it most likely is scarf or something else

Slowbro W

Smeargle W

Staraptor L

Tornadus L

Thundurus L it is faster and it can just use sub

Thundurus-Therian life orb or specs beat whimsi with sludge wave

Quagsire L

C-
Aron W

Chandelure W/L mostly w

Clefable W/L magic guard wins unaware loses

Hitmonlee W

Skarmory W u thank a brave bird from offensive scarf

Tangrowth L

Toxicroak L

D
Articuno W/l

Blastoise W

Escavalier L

Lanturn W

Milotic W

Ninetales W/L fire gem life orb or specs makes u win even if ur opponent is occa

Weavile W/L yache

Wobbuffet W

some other mons that arent ranked but i have been trying to use are roserade and espeon both beat whimsi u should try them
rof forgot magic guard. For Archeops I said consistently, which for me means at least more than a 50/50 lol. In addition to this, for things like Archeops and Victini that have 8 pp attacking moves you can run leftovers to beat them 100% consistently. Your points about the amount of sets just proves that this doesn't need a ton of sets to be incredibly powerful. All in all, with unnerfed prankster, the lack of powerful megas, the far better typing, the different mechanics of sound moves, and the overall slower metagame make whimsi far too strong and overcentralizing. Ban this.
 
victini depends on whether or not you protect twice. Don't forget banded Rock Blast Rhyperior, Crustle, and Icicle Spear Mamo/Cloyster which can do break sub then do direct damage. But, also don't forget grasswhistle exists to essentially turn every non grass type mu into a 55/45
You can also sub repeatedly on durant until x scissor misses, meaning whimsi wins 66% of the time, anyway. My personal list of real counters would be:
Ferrothorn
Breloom
Celebi
Shaymin
Venusaur
Virizion

Yeah I also think Whimsicott is busted and deserves a suspect test. A lot of the time, the best whimsicott answer on a team is going to be your own whimsicott, just sped crept up a bit so it can taunt first. That is not healthy at all.


I think there hsould be a suspect or something because it's quite broken. An your oponent can just play mind games on what you will pick just to counter whims. Litteraly covers the whole meta into 1 mon
roserade espeon xatu amoonguss genesect banded mamoswine.

mental herb jellicent too but I only run that, all ur points depend on "haha look 55% grass whistle" which is already a flawed argument in itself.
Whimsicott is nowhere near broken and should not be touched, solar has already made a massive post with w/l so I'm not going to bother making them myself.

Whims is a good meta threat which you always have to have a check to, but it doesn't mean its broken. A solid A+ mon
 

Alakazam

corrupt auth xd
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
So, we should suspect regular Blaziken in ORAS
and Fuck Blazikenite, that stays banned

I have no idea why regular blaziken is not unbanned in oras 1v1. It suffers from a severe 4MS syndrome, and, like Greninja, its situation is not improved through the lack of Species clause. Maybe back in the XY days, when people didn't know how to ev, it was crazy, but like, its nowhere near as diverse as gren, nor as unpredictable as Charizard.

Also, matchup wise, its not exactly stellar. You need four or five types of Blaziken actually get the scary coverage everyone seems to be worried about.
VR:
S+

Charizard-Mega-X L. Even without bulk, Char X wins more than 50% of the time against Adamant Life Orb stone edge Blaziken, and with anti-lop evs its a guaranteed win. You could probably 50/50 it with bulk up but then you have to give up either protect (meaning you autolose), or fire/fighting stab. Very much not worth it.
Charizard-Mega-Y MW with stone edge, L without
Gyarados-Mega ML, -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Gyarados: 348-411 (88.5 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO, obviously can get muddled with bulk up, or if you don't run tpunch

S

Kyurem-Black Inconsistent, scarf kyub tears through, needs double protect
Mawile-Mega MW, Blast Burn tears but Flare Blitz can lose against bulky
Porygon-Z inconsistent, needs double protect, because Adamant loses at +1, u need Jolly, which is probably not going to happen, since Blaziken is super weak with a speed boosting nature


A rank
A+

Dragonite L
Greninja MW (scarf gren)
Meloetta 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 352-417 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO, surely u can run bulkier/bulkier is ran


A

Garchomp L
Metagross-Mega 50/50 with sub, W with 4 attacks
Rhyperior L
Slowbro-Mega L
Whimsicott beats non-occa


A-

Aggron-Mega inconsistent, needs blast burn and hjk, aggron can just eq or metal burst.
Chansey W
Gardevoir-Mega L (trace)
Heatran W
Manaphy L
Pinsir-Mega 50/50 or less, needs protect, needs to predict whether they'll attack or SD
Venusaur-Mega ML, takes an L against Charm venu, as well as Sludge bomb, needs SD to


B rank
B+

Aegislash W with blast Burn, 50/50 without
Altaria-Mega L
Ampharos-Mega L
Crustle L
Genesect W
Golem L
Jirachi W
Jumpluff 50/50, protect on powder or attack on sub
Magnezone W with specs, L against custap
Mew L
Sawk L
Sylveon needs flare blitz, otherwise L
Togekiss ML, needs double protect and stone edge
Tyranitar-Mega W
Volcanion L


B
Azumarill L
Blastoise-Mega L
Diancie W (i think)
Ferrothorn W
Heracross-Mega W
Hoopa-Unbound W
Murkrow L
Porygon2 W
Swampert-Mega L
Victini L


B-

Archeops W if band, L if scarf
Diancie-Mega W(i think)
Donphan L
Empoleon W
Keldeo MW
Landorus L if scarf, mostly L if life orb / specs (unless hp ice, then its a 50/50 if they sub or not)
Latios L
Snorlax W
Talonflame Lmao


C rank:
C+

Banette-Mega I'm not gonna lie i don't remember what set banette runs. I'd assume like some disable shenanigans. Probably inconsistent anyway
Entei not sure, iirc they run av or something. If its banded max hp, then L, espeed 2hko and they tank stone edge
Landorus-Therian L
Latias-Mega L
Medicham-Mega W
Swampert L unless Swords Dance
Terrakion W

C
Avalugg L against band
Camerupt-Mega L
Cloyster W
Conkeldurr also a set i don't quite recall seeing. Banded Conkeldurr wins
Durant W
Excadrill inconsistent, nonscarf loses and u can double protect
Gallade-Mega 50/50, bulk up on protect or attack on their attack
Gengar-Mega Inconsistent, needs jolly to outspeed after +1, or double protect for +2, and subgar gives issue.
Hitmonlee W
Lucario-Mega ML, loses to sub reversal
Pidgeot-Mega W
Riolu W
Scizor-Mega W
Skarmory L
Steelix-Mega L
Suicune L
Thundurus-T W
Umbreon W


C-

Aerodactyl-Mega needs double protect
Alakazam-Mega L, trace
Aurorus W
Blissey W
Clefable lol don't know what clef runs, i don't think i ever saw it in og ORAS
Deoxys-Speed ML, needs SD against stall, L against specs
Dusclops L
Gliscor L unless HP ice
Jellicent L
Mandibuzz unsure, probably l unless SD
Relicanth L
Sceptile-Mega W
Scolipede L
Slaking W
Smeargle W
Stunfisk remove this from VR


D

Abomasnow-Mega W
Aron L
Cinccino W
Darmanitan needs double protect to beat scarf darm
Deoxys-Speed uh what is this doing here twice
Haxorus needs double protect to beat scarfn
Infernape W
Machamp L
Vivillon 50/50, protect on sleep powder or attack on sub
totals:
W / MW: 33
Inconsistent / 50/50 / depends on coverage: 21
L / ML: 45


From this matchup list alone its crazy to say its presence crushes the metagame. It hardloses more than it hard wins. In fact, based on this, the most optimal set would have to be:

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Protect
- High Jump Kick
- Blast Burn / Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge

with stone edge being replaceable by HP Ice, Tpunch, and SD.

Its life orb because band takes away all the matchups you could win with protect without any real benefits except maybe against bulky no speed victini.

Basically, blaziken is trash. I will concede that mega Blaziken is broken in ORAS 1v1, but not regular. Just pull a kanghaskhan and free the unmega form. Its a B+ rank mon.

Edit: I'm moving the mons you need to protect twice for into ML, as it turns out the chance of getting a double protect is 33%, not 50.
Source: /dt protect, The user is protected from most attacks made by other Pokemon during this turn. This move has a 1/X chance of being successful, where X starts at 1 and triples each time this move is successfully used.
 
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DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
On BW:
I don't have much time but what all of you fail to grasp is that the W/L table is only the surface of whatever you're trying to prove and shouldn't be the base. There's a lot of thing that should really be put out when you're trying to argue if a Pokemon should be banned or not. Your W/L matchup table showed that Whimsicott has counters but what it fails to show is how much they are viable, if they are easily SPLASHABLE on a team, and isn't it overcentralizing to HAVE to use them on a team to beat Whimsi?

I've built BW most of this PL for some people, and what I can say, it's true that Whimsi has counters but 1) they are just a few naming Victini, Volarona and Genesect and lot of bad grass types, and being forced to use them is called overcentralization and restriction of teambuilding. 2) Most of them counters can be nullified with the right teammates. 3) Whimsi is really splashable on most times, it can work out with most Pokemon as it can beat pretty much a lot of things, so not running it atleast once from game to game puts you in a huge disadvantage. And that's not even talking about the Grass Whistle set.

On ORAS:
ffs, can we not unban anything from ORAS, the gen is over and we're really going into gen 8 soon. Let's not touch ORAS. The only time it was suspected in ORAS it proved to be more problematic than we thought it would be, this is why using this VR thingy looks fancy but fails to check reality. Also if Blaziken gets unbanned the whole metagame gets shifted and you get a whole differenct VR due to metagame adaptations and stuff, let's not touch any unban from past gens and just focus on bans.
 
Aite me and the boys did a lot of oras vr changes (votes here)
Raises, with reasonings (because I think explaining why a mon is better in the meta is helpful
Mega Sableye: UR (oops supposed to be a-) -> A+ -- This thing is a beast. Very hard to build around without using a charizard or a fairy, though admittedly people do quite a bit of the former. Versatile, can run taunt + wisp, CM, metal burst, and beat a lot of stuff. Quite a consistent mon too and imo defines stall in ORAS.
Mega Venusaur: a- -> a -- Like sab, this fatmon is so hard to build against. Great typing, huge raw bulk, great movepool (though imo maybe besides zard or sab it has the worst 4mss in 1v1 because of how much good stuff it can run) and anti-meta too. Charm rocks, and can help beat very popular mons like zardx and chomp. Can do stuff like beat kyub too which is epic.
mega alt: b+ -> a- -- This thing is SO anti-meta. It owns Gyara, both zard (very good in this meta), Kyub, Dnite / dragons as a whole, Gren if you're spdef, etc. Also has an awesome movepool, and Cotton Guard and Confide both rock.
Azumarill: b -> a- -- Pretty big raise, but this thing deserves it - it's just so anti-meta, beating Gyara, both zards, kyub sometimes (what isn't sometimes vs kyub?) scarf pz, gren, etc. Being such a good blanket check vs a lot of dragons and special attackers rocks, but azu is really good when you consider its matchup vs high usage pokemon (ZARD, gren, etc). Great mon to build with.
Mew: b+ -> a- -- No brainer. Great, consistent stall mon, and stoss/amnesia can mess up a lot of matchups. Offensive is uncommon (though imo it has potential) but Kee berry + wisp is a mega consistent stall mon. Lower because it has to compete with sableye, and it loses hard to mega sableye.
Archeops: b- -> b -- I didn't personally agree and vote with this but I get it. Cool zard check and it's SO STRONG! Banded head smash is super nice for plowing through stuff like dragonite, meloetta, heatran, and you can also run stuff like switcheroo for chansey and outrage for garchomp.
Empoleon: b- -> b -- Another cool anti-meta mon. Water + steel is rad, and the matchups vs stuff like kyub, zardx, pz are just a few examples where water + steel proves to be really cool. Specs is awesome and yawn + whatever with torrent and peteya is pretty beast.
Terrakion c+ -> b- -- Anti-Meta mon. Destroying zard, pz, kyub, as well as being able to have a shot vs Gyara is just really cool in 2 slots with cc/edge. You can also use pjab to beat whims and double kick has a shot at beating zone while 100% beating pz (endure into hyper beam on a -1 spdef terrak can win). Has a pretty solid niche, if not being a little outclassed by TTar.
Clefable: c- -> c+ -- Not the most used mon ever, but ORAS really doesn't have a ton of good fairy types, but this is one of them. It gets Charm, CM, Amnesia, Encore (pretty underrated move), Twave, etc.
Mega Medicham: c+ -> b- -- I didn't vote for this either but this thing a) is super strong b) has good coverage and c) can be bulked if you want to.
Mega Gallade: c -> c+ -- You might think this mon's trash, then it beats your zard x. Bulk up is cool, and I always thought fighting types like Gallade had more potential than was used - fighting types can really be anti meta if they can beat zard and gyara, with a bonus of kyub too.
Volcarona: UR: -> c -- Great mon. Not only is it good vs steels, but it's also good vs a lot of fat stuff like psychics and venusaur and whatnot. Great vs stuff slower than it. Toad's bulky set is super good, and helps vs faster stuff like lopunny too.
Serperior: UR -> c -- Really cool mon. AV has gotten good usage in 1v1pl, and can beat stuff like heatran too. Also really cool vs slow/fat stuff like slowbro and whims. Mirror Coat is super epic for sludge bomb venusaur, too.
Deoxys-Speed: d -> c- -- Deod got banned, so if you wanna use stall use this one I guess (you probably shouldn't, crit rate is too high, just use amnesia mew). Specs is neat though, and you might be able to pull off some NP + screens set.
Staraptor: UR -> d -- Intim is cool. So is featherdance and its stats. You can run defensive which is pretty cool (though I'd rather use cotton guard alt) or band.
Salamence: ur -> d -- Defensive is usable (though I haven't seen it) but scarf / custap are where it's at. Scarf Rock Slide is really cool vs zard and you can run superpower for PZ and stuff. Scarf outrage is really nice for a bunch of other dragons.
Vivillion: d -> c- -- Sure, it's outclassed by Jumpluff, but vivv is a lot more consistent. Beats grasses too. Not a D rank mon. If you don't need pluff's speed but need to beat slower fat mons try this thing.

Drops, with reasoning on some
Dragonite a+ -> a -- I don't think dnite is an A+ mon. I think band is super flawed - it has a ton of bad matchups vs stallish/fat mons like slowbro, venusaur, and Mega Sab, but it also isn't even that good vs the top ranked mons. It beats like, Zardy, Wispless Zardx, and scarf pz. But other than that this mon has too many bad matchups and flaws in general to be an a+ mon, including losing to rough skin chomp sometimes. I think it's goodish, but not a+. It isn't anti-meta and the bottom stuff can beat it easily too.
Mega Aggron a- -> b+ -- If you want a steel type that has a decent zard matchup, use heatran. Besides just having a generally huge defense stat, Mega Aggron doesn't really have that much of a niche that other steels like Mawile, Metagross, and Heatran can't do better.
Golem B+ -> B -- Study is cool and all but this thing is #1 pretty weak and #2 outclassed by uh, I don't know, Rhyperior, TTar, Terrakion, Archeops, etc. Has a pretty bad zard MU to boot, too, wisp / air slash blows.

Avalugg c -> c- -- i can't think of this thing's niche.
Cloyster c- -> ur -- bad mon
Mega Pige c -> d -- featherdance is a worse mega alt
Suicune c -> c- -- cool in bw but doesn't really have a good niche in ORAS, not to mention pretty awful matchups around the board vs the top mons in the meta/vr.
Mega Aero c- -> ur -- use a different rock type like terrakion or archeops
Mandibuzz c- -> d -- outclassed by msab in pretty much every way
Gliscor c- -> ur -- use landot for offense and some other mon like whims for stall
Sceptile-Mega c- -> ur -- woat grass type
Cincinno d -> ur -- use mega lop or something
Jellicent c -> d -- you'll almost always wish you were msab instead. cursed body is pretty rad though and saves this thing. you still struggle with fairies just as much as Msab does.
Machamp d -> ur -- use like conk


Would love more noms, in this gen or BW or whatever! Also I don't think it's been formally announced on this thread but there's a PS room for 1v1 old gens. https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1oldgens
 
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Aite I've been meaning to post about this for a while but I think Slaking is broken in ADV 1v1 and should be banned.


Slaking has REALLY good stats, and before the power creep of later gens, pretty much nothing rivals 160 attack. Not only this but it has insane bulk, so it's really good at beating pokemon in 1 turn. It has a great offensive movepool to boot, too, including Hyper Beam, Earthquake, Brick Break, Shadow Ball, Counter and Rock Slide. Sturdy does not protect from anything but banned ohko moves like Sheer Cold in this gen, too.

252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Zapdos: 472-556 (122.9 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Metagross: 331-390 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (counter wins here anyway)
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Hariyama: 545-642 (110.7 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (bulky fighting mon :())

So maybe you're thinking "lol wow just use protect/sub/endure" or something. Well, that's exactly where amnesia + rest comes in. Slaking will sometimes run rest, amnesia, bulkup/counter and a normal move to prey on band's counterplay. And it does very well (look below at replays). This set, combined with band, makes for a super versatile mon with really good stats and movepool.

Counterplay to both sets really.. doesn't exist. You can certainly try but for the most part it's gonna be really niche. None of the popular mons can really do anything about both sets. The huge lack of power creep from later gens and lack of good, fast fighting types (like infernape or keldeo in later gens) to take care of slaking's 1 weakness sucks and makes it super broken. A mon like this is super unhealthy for the meta and the meta is much better off without it.

tldr band slaking is amazingly good and a bulky setup set exists alongside it to specifically feast off bands counterplay and overall broken and unhealthy.

Replays:
Offensive:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-842
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-729 (crit didnt matter at all)
Bulky:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-210
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-688
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-845

Would like discussion, but if none opposing this ensues then I'll get a council vote (council from adv 1v1 cup) to vote on a Slaking ban. Also working on the VR for adv and if you're interested PM me, help is appreciated.

edit @187fan yeah sure
 
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Aite I've been meaning to post about this for a while but I think Slaking is broken in ADV 1v1 and should be banned.


Slaking has REALLY good stats, and before the power creep of later gens, pretty much nothing rivals 160 attack. Not only this but it has insane bulk, so it's really good at beating pokemon in 1 turn. It has a great offensive movepool to boot, too, including Hyper Beam, Earthquake, Brick Break, Shadow Ball, Counter and Rock Slide. Sturdy does not protect from anything but banned ohko moves like Sheer Cold in this gen, too.

252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Zapdos: 472-556 (122.9 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Metagross: 331-390 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (counter wins here anyway)
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Hariyama: 545-642 (110.7 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (bulky fighting mon :())

So maybe you're thinking "lol wow just use protect/sub/endure" or something. Well, that's exactly where amnesia + rest comes in. Slaking will sometimes run rest, amnesia, bulkup/counter and a normal move to prey on band's counterplay. And it does very well (look below at replays). This set, combined with band, makes for a super versatile mon with really good stats and movepool.

Counterplay to both sets really.. doesn't exist. You can certainly try but for the most part it's gonna be really niche. None of the popular mons can really do anything about both sets. The huge lack of power creep from later gens and lack of good, fast fighting types (like infernape or keldeo in later gens) to take care of slaking's 1 weakness sucks and makes it super broken. A mon like this is super unhealthy for the meta and the meta is much better off without it.

tldr band slaking is amazingly good and a bulky setup set exists alongside it to specifically feast off bands counterplay and overall broken and unhealthy.

Replays:
Offensive:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-842
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-729 (crit didnt matter at all)
Bulky:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-210
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-688
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/amethyst-gen31v1-845

Would like discussion, but if none opposing this ensues then I'll get a council vote (council from adv 1v1 cup) to vote on a Slaking ban. Also working on the VR for adv and if you're interested PM me, help is appreciated.
Could you make some ADV Tours in the Old Gens room in the following days? Because I would like to get an opinion on Slaking because I have not played ADV once and only watched some replays of it.
 
i got some bw nominations after testing around with the meta a bit

Whimsicott A+ to S: I'm a big hypocrite for doing this but whimsi is fucking broken and forces you to have a check on every team, so much that it's absurd to not have it at S. I still agree on the fact that it is not banworthy though things might change after wco1v1.

Latios A to A+: Aside from its obvious weakness to shit like whims, scarf and specs hold up quite a fight. Scarf beats genesect with hp fire, non haban kyub, and other scarfers such as garchomp and haxorus. Specs is also great being contender for the strongest special attacker in the tier and I can't be arsed showing matchups so enjoy.
 
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POSTING TIME
i got some bw nominations after testing around with the meta a bit

Whimsicott A+ to S: I'm a big hypocrite for doing this but whimsi is fucking broken and forces you to have a check on every team, so much that it's absurd to not have it at S. I still agree on the fact that it is not banworthy though things might change after wco1v1.

Latios A to A+: Aside from its obvious weakness to shit like whims, scarf and specs hold up quite a fight. Scarf beats genesect with hp fire, non haban kyub, and other scarfers such as garchomp and haxorus. Specs is also great being contender for the strongest special attacker in the tier and I can't be arsed showing matchups so enjoy.
Moved whims to S. This thing is the best mon in the tier and its item dictates so much. Leech Seed beats a majority of the meta. Honestly to me it's nearing on broken, but the posts advocating its ban have been sloppy and haven't convinced me much. Latios though, while having strengths (specs/scarf both change a lot of mus), has a bunch of flaws. It doesn't have that much of a shot vs fat stuff, and when the meta is ruled by steel types and whimsicott (and haban kyub is on the rise) latios struggles. It's pretty easy to prepare for with whatever physical attacker honestly. Thanks for posting!

ADV: Gonna ban slaking. Have had 0 backlash so far from anyone that isn't ryyjyywyy (noob who defends perish song) so I'll ban it, and multiple players from ADV 1v1 cup and who are otherwise involved with the vr and whatnot want to ban it too. Banned.
urkerab if you could ban slaking on rom that'd be great for Gen 3 1v1.

Also in BW / Gen 5 1v1 - Sand Rush, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap should be unbanned (Never should have been banned). Additionally, the "Evasion Abilities Clause" is completely irrelevant in 1v1 so I'm gonna remove that too. All just minor blunders in the banlist nobody really pointed out beforehand and I didn't realize when taking this tier from DEG. Kris if you could unban sand rush, shadow tag, arena trap and remove the evasion abilities clause from gen 5 1v1 that would be swell.

blah blah keep posting blah blah. would love to hear a thorough and probably subjective post about whims in bw (fuck vr matchups) because that mon is teetering on broken imo.
 

DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
So literally all games of 1v1 bw in WC at this point have been Whimsicott+Whimsicott counters when are you realizing that it's restricting teambuilding af and should be banned?
 

stableprince569

formerly SilvioGiovanna
List of things that usually counter whimsicott and can actually viably be used in bw tournaments:
jumpluff
darmanitan
other whimsicotts
thundurus t
gengar
houndoom
ninetales
dragonite
chandelure
volcarona
infernape
genesect
togekiss
ferrothorn
virizion
tentacruel
jellicent
victini

and these are only things that I've personally used while teambuilding, so I didn't include things like breloom, celebi, cloyster, espeon etc.
there are many more examples out there and a bunch of them are very good mons as well.
while some of these are only soft checks, other have to run specific sets and some of them can be countered by appropriate berries, there are a bunch of hard counters that whimsi can do nothing against.

idk what to make of this list, I would make a point not to ban whimsicott but I'm pretty biased since I love using it in gen7 and haven't had much of a problem countering it while playing.

if we wanna talk about rachi on the other hand, the amount of mons that check it is way lower, and even then rachi can just hax its way out and win the matchup. the amount of hard counters to it are incredibly low and building with it is extremely easy, so I would be in favor of its ban
 

lost heros

Meme Master
I'm no expert on BW 1v1 nor Whimsicott's place in the metagame. But for some reason I am compelled to correct shitty arguments.

List of things that usually counter whimsicott and can actually viably be used in bw tournaments:
First and foremost the existence of counters does not automatically make something not broken in a metagame. Things have been banned before, justifiably most of the time, despite all having counters. If you want to analyze a pokemon from its counters its essential to understand whether or not these counters are viable, provide a steep opportunity cost when using, or what kind of role these pokemon perform.


jumpluff
darmanitan
other whimsicotts
thundurus t
gengar
houndoom
ninetales
dragonite
chandelure
volcarona
infernape
genesect
togekiss
ferrothorn
virizion
tentacruel
jellicent
victini
Now here is a pointless list that provides literally nothing of value.
1. It's not organized in any meaningful way.
2. There is no descriptive factor with calcs or strategy as to how these pokemon beat Whimsicott.
3. It's wrong sometimes at least from what I can tell.

Jumpluff
Taunt still beats Jumpluff and is a viable option for Whimsicott to run.

Whimsicott
By definition a pokemon cannot be a counter to itself.

Houndoom and Ninetales
A specially defensive Occa Whimsicott set can beat both of these if they rely on Fire Blast

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Whimsicott: 226-267 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Whimsicott in Sun: 279-328 (86.1 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

and ANY Whimsicott has a 50% chance roughly against a Choiced Fire Blast user by merely looking for misses with Substitute.
And if you're wondering a single Sub to absorb an Overheat would also allow Whimsicott to beat either of these pokemon if they go for that.

-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Ninetales Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Whimsicott in Sun: 163-193 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(edited for correction from Attid(uwu)de)

Infernape
Whimsicott needs very little Physical investment to guarentee beating Infernape with Occa Berry

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Occa Berry Whimsicott: 288-340 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Togekiss
I don't quite see how Togekiss wins here ever so I'm not quite sure where to even approach this.



Because of these potential mistakes, this list comes off as poorly researched or well thought out and could have been easily avoided by just explaining why these Pokemon "counter" Whimsicott.

and these are only things that I've personally used while teambuilding, so I didn't include things like breloom, celebi, cloyster, espeon etc.
there are many more examples out there and a bunch of them are very good mons as well.
while some of these are only soft checks, other have to run specific sets and some of them can be countered by appropriate berries, there are a bunch of hard counters that whimsi can do nothing against.

idk what to make of this list, I would make a point not to ban whimsicott but I'm pretty biased since I love using it in gen7 and haven't had much of a problem countering it while playing.
And here's the problem. You're not making an argument. You're not contributing to the discussion. And don't get me wrong it's not just you. The conversation has been incredibly shallow on all fronts.

DEG brought up a centralization issue, where Whimsicott or its checks seems to be required in nearly every team. This is also a hard argument to make as he doesn't seem to define the line between S tier and overcentralized nor does the data from PL support this claim (although this seemingly might change once WC stats come out)

And that's all real sad, because there are some really good arguments to be discussed.

1. Whether or not the overall power of the metagame is strong enough to allow for a simple one-time bulk check win condition.
This is really easy to compare to later generations as Whimsicott's set is nearly identical yet now it doesn't have to contest with Mega Pokemon or Z moves notably. Nor does it have to compete with Pixilate and Aerilate buffing Sound-based and low BP priority moves. All it has to contest with is Super Effective moves offensively and extremely strong Choice'd pokemon. (at least from a cursory glance)

2. Whether or not the counterplay for Whimsicott is reasonable.
Whimsicott seems strictly beaten by opposing grass-types (most of which are notably weak), Sound-based moves (which has a small distribution of useable pokemon) Corrected By Osra, Sound moves do not Bypass Sub in gen 5 and extremely powerful "rare" coverage (things like Specs Thundurus-T's sludge wave)

3. Whether or not Whimsicott dictates a style of play to be utilized.
Because of the nature and relative power of Gen 5 Whimsicott, it can seemingly force out opposing Stall strategies. Now I can't stress enough that I am no expert on this, but it does seem at least partially similar to the Perish Song ban from Generation 6. Because stall pokemon have such a narrow answer if any to Whimsicott AND because Whimsicott is universally considered the best or one of the best pokemon in the metagame stall is unnaturally rare, and pokemon that would otherwise be viable are absolutely nowhere to be seen.
 
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Quitting any responsibilities i had in this and my spots in both ADV and ORAS.

Reasoning : incredibly jerk centered group of mods (not all) most of them smogon inept as we all know, literally not letting me communicate with absurd and straightforward not equal to other members reasoning i haven't seen in any other tier for 5 years i played this game for.I won't get into anything, there is too much and this is not a place for it but this was the tipping point definitely.

Tagging the 26 year old "leader" Quote
Sad!

:blobwizard:
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
It has come to my attention that Yawn is not currently present in the banlist for DPP 1v1, nor is any form of Sleep banned from ADV 1v1.

As a reminder for those who may not be familiar with Sleep mechanics of those generations, Sleep lasts a minimum of 2 turns to a maximum of 5 turns. The guaranteed 2 turns of Sleep alone allow effectively everything to set up whatever they need and instantly win; in particular, Belly Drum users who can tank a single hit, any user with Leech Seed, and even cheesy strats like Hypnosis + Super Fang + killing move.

In the interest of making the upcoming 1v1 Classic a non-aids experience for people, I hope that these moves will all be banned.

Also ban Explosion, Self-Destruct, and Destiny Bond from ADV, since ties.
 
It has come to my attention that Yawn is not currently present in the banlist for DPP 1v1, nor is any form of Sleep banned from ADV 1v1.

As a reminder for those who may not be familiar with Sleep mechanics of those generations, Sleep lasts a minimum of 2 turns to a maximum of 5 turns. The guaranteed 2 turns of Sleep alone allow effectively everything to set up whatever they need and instantly win; in particular, Belly Drum users who can tank a single hit, any user with Leech Seed, and even cheesy strats like Hypnosis + Super Fang + killing move.

In the interest of making the upcoming 1v1 Classic a non-aids experience for people, I hope that these moves will all be banned.

Also ban Explosion, Self-Destruct, and Destiny Bond from ADV, since ties.
Quote ban yawn from dpp / update the banlist it should be banned
re: sleep in adv
i quite frankly have 0 reason to think it's currently broken. i've tried out jumpluff, jynx and ursarang and they quite frankly suck ass (also no wide lens). if some1 wants to prove they're broken in adv be my guest but with the popularization of sub+protect i don't think it's the biggest issue, currently. there's just no good abusers. breloom is okay, though, and probably the best one besides like smeargle. snorlax is banned (unlike in dpp) and also the eeveelutions notably don't get it. sleep has very limited distribution and i don't want to ban a non-problem yet, as sleep has had very little tour play.

i didn't know u could tie in adv doe i'll update my banlist

Ezaphs on nexus can you please ban yawn from gen41v1 and explosion, self-destruct and destiny bond in gen31v1? thanks
 

Quote

Smogon's Resident Robot
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
Whimsicott is banned from BW 1v1 after conducting a vote with 12 BW players:

ima
Solarflarero
Wanonymous1616
Soulwind
James155
Kaif
power
stableprince569
Djokra
Catalystic
dom
DEG


Whimsicott has been an extreme strain on teambuilding, to the point where you need to run very specific threats to have a chance of beating it. A combination of Taunt/Sub/Seed/Protect and either a Lum Berry or super effective resist berry means that even supposed reliable checks like KyuB can struggle to beat it. Here are some excerpts from a few players:

Building against whims is super irritating and this mon adds nothing to the tier. I think random things needing to taunt has gone a bit too far, and on top of that they don’t even beat mental herb. Shit like specs kyub doesn’t even beat yache, and when I gave kardistry king a team with tanga berry whims I really feel like this mon has went too far. Grasswhistle/brightpowder too :puke:


Whims makes the building experience atrocious, every team needs a dedicated whims counter that can easily be fucked over by a berry (kebia yache etc etc). The only "reliable" whims counters are shit like mental herb taunt and grass types that can actually kill whims, its really unhealthy if you think about it and try to build a team that isnt standard


banning whimsi opens a lot of new mons to the tier, and it is something that you need to prep for every single game to not lose to so i'm gonna go for ban on this one

not to mention you can run occa or yache on that thing, and different spreads to live different shit depending on your team. it's something that can only be shut down with things like taunt (even then whimsi has its own taunt) , magic guard which clef isn't used much but reun is good imo , your own grass types (speed creeping with your own whimsi is one way lol.)

plenty of games are 3 - 0 with this mon and im not sure you could call it healthy in a team building environment


This ban will be in effect for BW 1v1 Cup.
 

stableprince569

formerly SilvioGiovanna
Whimsicott is banned from BW 1v1 after conducting a vote with 12 BW players:

ima
Solarflarero
Wanonymous1616
Soulwind
James155
Kaif
power
stableprince569
Djokra
Catalystic
dom
DEG


Whimsicott has been an extreme strain on teambuilding, to the point where you need to run very specific threats to have a chance of beating it. A combination of Taunt/Sub/Seed/Protect and either a Lum Berry or super effective resist berry means that even supposed reliable checks like KyuB can struggle to beat it. Here are some excerpts from a few players:

Building against whims is super irritating and this mon adds nothing to the tier. I think random things needing to taunt has gone a bit too far, and on top of that they don’t even beat mental herb. Shit like specs kyub doesn’t even beat yache, and when I gave kardistry king a team with tanga berry whims I really feel like this mon has went too far. Grasswhistle/brightpowder too :puke:


Whims makes the building experience atrocious, every team needs a dedicated whims counter that can easily be fucked over by a berry (kebia yache etc etc). The only "reliable" whims counters are shit like mental herb taunt and grass types that can actually kill whims, its really unhealthy if you think about it and try to build a team that isnt standard


banning whimsi opens a lot of new mons to the tier, and it is something that you need to prep for every single game to not lose to so i'm gonna go for ban on this one

not to mention you can run occa or yache on that thing, and different spreads to live different shit depending on your team. it's something that can only be shut down with things like taunt (even then whimsi has its own taunt) , magic guard which clef isn't used much but reun is good imo , your own grass types (speed creeping with your own whimsi is one way lol.)

plenty of games are 3 - 0 with this mon and im not sure you could call it healthy in a team building environment


This ban will be in effect for BW 1v1 Cup.
Not even mentioning the whole TED talk by me, the Whimsicott virtuoso himself. Wow Quote, very disappointed.
 
DPP now has a new VR and is also starting to collect sample sets! If you wish to submit a set DM me on discord (ea#4442) and make sure you can explain the EVs. They'll be implemented similarly to the BW VR, with pastes containing the sets and explanations embedded into the Pokemon name.
 

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