While this does usually beat mgyara, in my experience you can still lose to bad rolls in addition to sacrificing a slot that could be used for Magnet Rise or earth power, both good movesRock Tomb.
While this does usually beat mgyara, in my experience you can still lose to bad rolls in addition to sacrificing a slot that could be used for Magnet Rise or earth power, both good movesRock Tomb.
Earth Power to beat uh, Steel Types that you don't die to (it's bad, Zeraora kills you anyway)While this does usually beat mgyara, in my experience you can still lose to bad rolls in addition to sacrificing a slot that could be used for Magnet Rise or earth power, both good moves
I like phantom force sub seed will o wisp or rest chesto berry from my testing, but overall it is a grass type that looses to the two best water types in the tierI would like to propose Trevenant from Unranked to Untested
With a unique ability that is only shared with alolan exxegutor, (which can't really fully utilize it) it has a strong potential as a seeder.
If you run an HP stat that is dividable by 4, you can pull off three subs and heal 50% with the pinch berries.
This essentially beats anything that it a move does less than 80%
This is the main set:
Trevenant @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 244 HP
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Substitute
- Curse
It's main niche, is that it can run either the role of a special tank, or a physical tank, walling out their respective threats.
A physically bulky trevenant can beat: non z-fly physical dragonite, M-Metagross, Donphan, Garchomp, Haxorus, M-Mawile and a bunch of others.
While a specially bulky set can beat: Magearna, some Leles, Meloetta, Mew, Genesect, Naganadel and other threats as well.
The main reason I believe this shines over other sub seeders, is because of Curse, which can faze through grass types and magic bounce users as well as substitute, essentially throwing that weakness out the door, and also, doesn't cripple your HP, because of Aguav berry.
While this is extremely weak to it's respective type weaknesses (with stab), and the move taunt, it has great potential as a stall mon.
252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 204-242 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKOI like phantom force sub seed will o wisp or rest chesto berry from my testing, but overall it is a grass type that looses to the two best water types in the tier
Can you explain in more detail what Milotic is meant to do? Throwing out a bunch of Ws and Ls is cool but for something in UR/UT you have to give proper details as to why it should be ranked. Include replays, give examples of sets or even teams it can work with. I don't want to see matchups by themselves because that completely disregards how it actually functions on a team and in battle.S Rank(2,25/5)
Charizard-Mega L vs Zard-Y because Solar Beam, W vs non specially invested X with Z-Dragon pulse![]()
Dragonite L vs physical, 50/50 vs special (with fast Z-DPulse milo)![]()
Gyarados-Mega I'd say W, the truth is no Milotic set covers all of the EVing Gyarados can do, but it covers a large enough portion of it![]()
Magearna L, too bulky, too strong![]()
A+ Rank(0,79557/2)
Porygon-Z W unless Tbolt Z-Conv (Pretty sure it's a W vs Shadow ball)![]()
Tapu Lele L, too fast, too strong![]()
A Rank (1/7)
Greninja Loses to protean Grass knot, UT for the rest![]()
Magnezone L, Obvious![]()
Meloetta L, kinda like vs Mag![]()
Metagross-Mega L, too bad MGyara is a thing. Thunder Punch everywhere![]()
Mew L, I have no faith in this one![]()
Slowbro-Mega L, out-tanked easily. Unless you play the stall game that would only win you this matchup![]()
Zygarde-Complete W with Ice Beam, outspeeds and 2HKO it despite PC![]()
A- Rank (1,7/6)
Aegislash UT, a W is not excluded![]()
Gardevoir-Mega L vs CM, so flat L.![]()
Jumpluff L, Trapped![]()
Kommo-o L, Z-DPulse can't save you![]()
Landorus-Therian W if you can tank a hit (aka if no Groundium Z)![]()
Togekiss RNG is in you favor (But I fear I miss something here)![]()
B+ Rank (5/17)
Altaria-Mega W![]()
Celesteela L, Walled![]()
Clefable UT![]()
Donphan L, you do NOT survive the Z move![]()
Garchomp Actually a W with enough bulk. Praise Ice Beam![]()
Genesect The Damage Calc says W, possible one shot with Z-HPump![]()
Heatran I want to say W, but Bloom doom is everywhere and is trashing poor Milo![]()
Magneton L, Same as Zone![]()
Mawile-Mega W with Hydro Pump. A tad bit more complicated if it decides to run Hyper Cutter.![]()
Primarina Energy Ball Wins it for Prima![]()
Sableye-Mega UT. I won a few, but can't really tell how that matchup is supposed to go![]()
Tapu Fini UT, probably a L![]()
Tyranitar-Mega Actually a W with Waterium Z![]()
Venusaur-Mega L, the reasons for those are numerous...![]()
Victini L, Bolt Strike. Otherwise it's a W but Bolt strike is so good a coverage some use Electrium Z Victini![]()
Zeraora L, One shotted.![]()
B Rank
Aggron L, but at least Aggron must stay honest to stand a chance![]()
Crustle L, Sturdy too good![]()
Ferrothorn L, outtanked![]()
Incineroar Roll dependant. Worth noting (or nah) that Milo oneshots it at least 2 times with HPump, so if you really need to counter Incineroar, just run full bulk to survive Fake out + MM![]()
Jirachi W, but the RNG is everywhere in this matchup (Para from TPunch/Flinch)![]()
Kartana L, OHKOed![]()
Lopunny-Mega Fake out GI is all it takes to lose that matchup![]()
Naganadel W with Dragonium Z/Icium Z (oh lord), L if you don't use those![]()
Necrozma UT, but I imagine L![]()
Pinsir-Mega 87.5% to lose (fresh out the damage calc)![]()
Porygon2 UT again, idk his gimmick![]()
Sawk W, Icy Wind wins here.![]()
Volcarona W![]()
Whimsicott L, can't touch this![]()
B- Rank
Ambipom L![]()
Archeops L![]()
Audino-Mega L![]()
Blastoise-Mega Might be a L![]()
Blaziken W but playing around protect/sub can be hard![]()
Camerupt-Mega W![]()
Carracosta "Crushing" L![]()
Deoxys-S L vs both type of sets![]()
Diancie-Mega W if you don't miss![]()
Durant Never saw it![]()
Golem "Crushing" L![]()
Haxorus W vs Scarf with Dragonium Z, Loses otherwise![]()
Hoopa-Unbound L![]()
Krookodile W![]()
Kyurem W (yes daddy I like your Noble roar) (use DPulse to break through)![]()
Latias-Mega L, outwalled![]()
Manaphy L, Tail Glow + can't hit that![]()
Medicham-Mega L, oneshotted by HJK![]()
Pheromosa L![]()
Raikou Probably L too![]()
Scizor-Mega Need HP fire to reliably win vs it.![]()
Serperior L like Leaf Storm![]()
Swampert-Mega Can bait the Mirror Coat set, but loses to Yawn.![]()
Tapu Bulu L![]()
Type: Null Probably W (Milo loves Confide)![]()
Vivillon L, It's a trap![]()
Zapdos L![]()
... I was trying to rank Milotic... And maybe C is all it deserves...
Edit : nvm MC exist and does wonders for Milo
Ok then. Basically what Milotic is supposed to do is hard counter mons with intimidate or mons that rely heavily on lowering your stats, because Competitive boost your SpA by 2 stage for each stat that is lowered (yes Noble Roar is a +3 SpA for Milo).Can you explain in more detail what Milotic is meant to do? Throwing out a bunch of Ws and Ls is cool but for something in UR/UT you have to give proper details as to why it should be ranked. Include replays, give examples of sets or even teams it can work with. I don't want to see matchups by themselves because that completely disregards how it actually functions on a team and in battle.
The thing about jumpluff, is that it's an <80% cheesy win against things that are slower than 110 base speed, and taunt/flame charge/dragon dance can still beat.Jumpluff and Whim should be tied,
The advantage jump has over whim is sleep accuracy (75 or 82.5 vs 55 or 60.5) sleep powder vs grass whistle. Other than that, Whim makes that lost ground up through stats and typing. Whim has higher speed and lower hp allowing it to recover more from leech seed and outspeed 110 speed mons.
Whim worries less about Rock Blast and Ice Shard as it takes half what Jumpluff takes due to typing. Whim's prankster allows it to handle more threats than Jumpluff such as Flame Charge, faster mons, and +1 priority moves up to its own speed. While the main drawback is the fact that prankster can't hit dark types, Whim has the option to get the jump on opponents by even running infiltrator. While that is laughable, that is what Jumpluff uses every day. For the joking offensive Jumpluff running swords dance and acrobatics, Whim has access to fake tears into Moonblast, Giga Drain, Hurricane, etc. Moonblast will do 6% (0 evs)~3%(252+ evs) more with the same investments and Whim keeps its item. Whim will also enjoy being physically bulkier than Jumpluff and still running less hp. This is shown off more in the cotton guard sets.
Where Jumpluff pulls ahead from Whim are the parts of jumpluff's moveset that people ignore such as recovery (synthesis and strength sap) but again these are redundant on the hp regen sets the two run. The second advantage is the sleep accuracy, but again, 82.5 vs 60.5 is not too great. The third advantage is that acrobatics will hit opposing grass types but honestly just find a better teammate for dealing with grass types instead of ruining a viable mon like putting ketchup on a $20 steak.
All in all, I'm siding with the fact that whim might even be better than Jumpluff but the two are so comparable that I brought up offensive sets. All pretzels is the same, make whim and jumpluff tied on the VR.
Sure Fake Out + Giga Impact is good, but Mega Lopunny is stronger faster and is used at least partially because of its fantastic ability. Oh and it's only ranked B (rather appropriately). So the advantage is access to tickle in exchange for Fighting STAB and Sub, Encore, and other utility moves.![]()
Ambipom
Adequate. This weird monkey is surprisingly good. Fake Out + Giga Impact gets a lot of kills with either Normalium for the accuracy and access to Z-Tickle or Life Orb for the extra damage on Fake Out and whatever your coverage move is. That said, it does struggle with a lot of the lower tier mons, so its main niche is just being anti-meta as fuq, and should be used sparingly, as a result. Way better at its job than anything else in C+, not as generally reliable as most things in B.
Audino-Mega is like Type: Null if something like Ninetales is like Mega Charizard Y. Sure they both stall and get some defensive set up, but Type: Null is so much bulkier and isn't taunt-bait. Forcing an offensive pokemon to use a set up move as its answer is more reminiscent of Mega Slowbro than it is of Mega Audino.![]()
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Audino-Mega/Type:Null
Adequate. Audino-Mega is branched under a very similar archetype to Type:Null, but does so in a notably different way, namely getting a +2 Spdef boosting move in Amnesia and a -1 Atk lowering move in Baby-Doll Eyes/Growl, the opposite of Null's setup with Iron Defense and Confide. Despite this difference, the two cover a very similar blanket of Pokemon, with Audino getting some slight advantages in having that Fairy typing and the ability to mindgame with whether or not it megas, versus Type:Null's immunity to crits, a pivotal necessity for most stall mons. Because the differences between these two balance out one another, I feel that they both belong in the same rank, regardless of whether they rise or fall. With that said, there's been a considerable surge of support for Type:Null to rise because "nothing can 2HKO" it, but people need to realize that you only need to 3HKO Type:Null, since Rest takes up 3 turns; this matters for far more scenarios than you may even be aware of, namely Charizard-X, Dragonite, Tapu Lele (which can also just win with Z-Calm Mind), Meloetta, Genesis Supernova Mew, Lando-T, Garchomp, Mawile, Zeraora, etc.
While I agree that Blaziken should not rise without a significant metagame shift, I don't think exploration is really necessary for it. What this pokemon wants to do is what its always done. You hit fast with a strong STAB move. Sure you can go for Z Will-o-Wisp if you really want to, but it doesn't really help its match-ups like at all. Either way tho, Blaziken is a good example of what I think a B- pokemon is. Something that has a particularly strong couple of sets that don't necessarily match up with what the metagame demands on it.![]()
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Blaziken
Adequate. I love Blaziken, honestly. The biggest issue with this mon is that it just can't run all the moves it wants to in a single set. It also just hasn't really been explored beyond generic 252/252 sets. That said, I have a set in mind that I'll save for a later post, since it doesn't really fit in with the point of this post.
I agree with everything here and literally always have. I'm sure there are discord log records of me telling UOP this exact sentiment.![]()
Durant
Possibly drop to C+. Like Camerupt, Durant has a good raw number of advantageous matchups, but struggles with reliably beating them all. Durant's main issue, however, is that it's forced to rely on 80% or less accurate moves for literally ALL of its matchups. This means that anything it has to 2HKO becomes a 64% chance of doing so with hitting consecutive Iron Head and X-Scissor, while Stone Edge already has 80% accuracy, thus being reduced to 64% accuracy, due to Hustle.
I don't really understand Raikou's role in the metagame to be honest. In between Zeraora, Magnezone, Zapdos each have a specific niche in what they as an electric type does. Calm Mind? Pressure? Laser Focus? Inner Focus (lol). Idk Zeraora focuses on the big fast damage. Magnezone focuses on 2HKOs. Zapdos semi-stalls better. So why run Raikou? idk. I don't get t.![]()
Raikou
Possibly drop to C+. Raikou rose in popularity due to its perceived ability to take on multiple high ranked threats of 1v1, between Charizard-Y, Gyarados, Magearna, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, etc, however, this mon is very stretched regarding things it needs to EV for; needing way too much SpA for specially bulky mons like Magearna, Meloetta, Lele, Metagross, Gardevoir, etc; needing way too much physical bulk to take attacks from mons like Metagross, Mawile, Crustle, Incineroar, etc; and needing a ton of Speed to outspeed what it needs to between Zard-Y, Kartana, Jumpluff, etc. While it can beat all of these things individually, it just cannot do so in a single spread, and it sacrifices a lot of potential wins in picking one given spread over another, in addition to not really having that many cumulative wins across all of its differing spreads. For this reason, I feel Raikou may need to drop to C+ until someone can produce an optimized set that takes on everything it needs to (I tried, and couldn't make it happen).
zmoves exist. groundium and rockium have been seen to mixed amounts of success, theres no reason to c+ this mon when it does what it has always done. Kill zards + extraI agree with everything here and literally always have. I'm sure there are discord log records of me telling UOP this exact sentiment.
Nomming Durant from B- to C+
just hit 4Head. Alongside the fact that groundium also hits uh magearna and uhh ground weak stuff, 64% accuracy is great.I personally would not say it kills Zards + extra with his ability. If Durant does not run Rockium you have a 64% chance of hitting Stone Edge which is only a bit more than Hypnosis from MGar or you create a 50/50 with groudium whether the Zard x mega evolves or not. With Hustle you always have a chance of nor hitting moves which can be really annoying and is inconsistent.Thats why I personally think it is fine at C+.
i hate things like theseMagneton B+ > C+
Magneton is such a weird Pokemon to have so high up. The highly specific speed creep on Magnezone by 10 base speed is pitiful. Magneton isn't even fast. With base 70 speed it can use Electroweb in combination with Sturdy to ensure you get a 2HKO. Just like Magnezone can. For comparison, top speed Magnezone can use Electroweb to outspeed base 114s, while Magneton can outspeed 129s. Which would be cool, if there was anything important in this speed tier that Magnezone doesn't already beat. Raikou? Naganadel? Salazzle? All of these are just, so bad. Now of course the real speed tier that this targets is, bulky Mega Gyarados and Dragonite that accidentally fall in that range by pure coincidence. Of course it's pretty obvious that these two Pokemon have options to beat Magneton anyways by either running more speed or in Dragonite's case Extreme Speed.
Well I've got a little bit idk if this is already known but I might as well share iti hate things like these
not once in here did you say about why someone should run magnezone over magneton. all you did was talk about why magnetons speed is irrelevant at times while citing literally nothing that magnezone does better than magneton. this part of your post shows absolutely nothing in terms of what a pokemon can / can't do, and is completely meaningless because you don't have anything actually substantial in here except highlighting why people do run magneton over magnezone. you've only shown reason why it SHOULD be run over magnezone, not why magnezone is "better." thats especially substantial considering you nommed it an entire letter below where it currently is. fix this please.
I felt it was fairly obvious? Magnezone’s stronger and bulkier than Magneton is, but if you want to get in to the nitty gritty.i hate things like these
not once in here did you say about why someone should run magnezone over magneton. all you did was talk about why magnetons speed is irrelevant at times while citing literally nothing that magnezone does better than magneton. this part of your post shows absolutely nothing in terms of what a pokemon can / can't do, and is completely meaningless because you don't have anything actually substantial in here except highlighting why people do run magneton over magnezone. you've only shown reason why it SHOULD be run over magnezone, not why magnezone is "better." thats especially substantial considering you nommed it an entire letter below where it currently is. fix this please.
0+ SpA Meloetta Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 159-188 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKOokey we need some Kaif analysis because freddy is an egg (this isnt an insult get the fuck away smod)
Magneton: B+ > C+
This should be self explanatory for reasoning guys jfc. So, Magneton finds itself a niche in outspeeding gyarados sets that are not prepared for its speed, it is used over magnezone primarily for that reason as to my knowledge. What is the problem with this? Gyarados can simply run 168 Speed EVs with a boosting nature..hmm what else does magneton do what magnezone doesn't?
View attachment 184963
ok then just run flash cannon magnezone.
Magneton's only niche is ruined by simply running more speed on gyara, granted that you may not always be prepared for it. There are other options such as Zeraora, the aforementioned zone and maybe zapdos / raikou. Magneton does not deserve of the B+ ranking and definitely would be fine with C+ ranking.
Instead of comparing the two Pokemon's matchups to one another (like people do with Ambipom and mLopunny, even tho they beat completely different things), I suggest we look at them as two completely different Pokemon, and rank them in disregard of one another. Take a look at both of their matchup lists and conclude a proper viability based on that factor. The fact that Magneton beats basically the same things as Magnezone but trades some matchups for others (beating most mGyarados is huge if you ask me, as many gyaras will not commit to so high Speed investments, preferring bulk or attack over it) is an already good indicator that Magneton deserves an A/A- spot, B+ at worst.0+ SpA Meloetta Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 159-188 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 120-141 (42.7 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Meloetta 2HKOs you and outspeeds you, leaving your only chance being to land a raw Zap Cannon, while Magneton outspeeds a vast majority of Meloetta and wins, so long as it hits Metal Sound.
Magneton also outspeeds a vast majority of Heatran, allowing it to land a 2HKO with Electroweb into Z-Zap, while Magnezone has to hit another raw Zap Cannon, on account of Rock Tomb.
On the other hand, Magnezone snags a kill on Landorus-Therian with HP Ice, in addition to getting a 50/50 roll vs Garchomp, which is something Magneton outright cannot do.
All-in-all, the bulk and power that Magneton sacrifices matters for very little beyond the handful of matchups that you either are forced to 50/50 with hitting a raw Zap Cannon or just outright are at a considerable disadvantage in. With a Pokemon so nearly identical in viability to its counterpart, it only makes sense that both be ranked close to one another, albeit Magneton just a notch or two below.
That said, I do think there is a greater debate to be had about Pokemon in general that cover the same niche as one another, and whether or not "outclassed" Pokemon should be given mention.
See, the thing is that Magnezone is somewhat carried because it has more options than just a single set, in specs. Magneton can maybe swap between Protect and Hidden Power Ground. Just having more viable sets (specs is rated B+ in sets vr) indicates greater versatility, which is again linked to viability. Therefore, if the two Electrium Z sets are seen as equal in effectiveness, then Magnezone should be higher ranked because of its other options.Instead of comparing the two Pokemon's matchups to one another (like people do with Ambipom and mLopunny, even tho they beat completely different things), I suggest we look at them as two completely different Pokemon, and rank them in disregard of one another. Take a look at both of their matchup lists and conclude a proper viability based on that factor. The fact that Magneton beats basically the same things as Magnezone but trades some matchups for others (beating most mGyarados is huge if you ask me, as many gyaras will not commit to so high Speed investments, preferring bulk or attack over it) is an already good indicator that Magneton deserves an A/A- spot, B+ at worst.
A general in-depth matchup analysis is still to be done, as Magneton has not seen much usage, but imho we should avoid ranking it as low as C+ tier.
Except we should do literally the opposite of that. Magneton is a prime example of the failings of purely match-up analysis driven VR.Instead of comparing the two Pokemon's matchups to one another (like people do with Ambipom and mLopunny, even tho they beat completely different things), I suggest we look at them as two completely different Pokemon, and rank them in disregard of one another. Take a look at both of their matchup lists and conclude a proper viability based on that factor. The fact that Magneton beats basically the same things as Magnezone but trades some matchups for others (beating most mGyarados is huge if you ask me, as many gyaras will not commit to so high Speed investments, preferring bulk or attack over it) is an already good indicator that Magneton deserves an A/A- spot, B+ at worst.
A general in-depth matchup analysis is still to be done, as Magneton has not seen much usage, but imho we should avoid ranking it as low as C+ tier.