Resource 1v1 Viability Rankings

[Eriey]

While this does usually beat mgyara, in my experience you can still lose to bad rolls in addition to sacrificing a slot that could be used for Magnet Rise or earth power, both good moves

Earth Power to beat uh, Steel Types that you don't die to (it's bad, Zeraora kills you anyway)
Yes you can lose to bad rolls
P sure PZ is another thing you need Rock Tomb for

 

[M24]

I would like to propose Trevenant from Unranked to Untested

With a unique ability that is only shared with alolan exxegutor, (which can't really fully utilize it) it has a strong potential as a seeder.
If you run an HP stat that is dividable by 4, you can pull off three subs and heal 50% with the pinch berries.
This essentially beats anything that it a move does less than 80%
This is the main set:
Trevenant @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 244 HP
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Substitute
- Curse

It's main niche, is that it can run either the role of a special tank, or a physical tank, walling out their respective threats.
A physically bulky trevenant can beat: non z-fly physical dragonite, M-Metagross, Donphan, Garchomp, Haxorus, M-Mawile and a bunch of others.
While a specially bulky set can beat: Magearna, some Leles, Meloetta, Mew, Genesect, Naganadel and other threats as well.
The main reason I believe this shines over other sub seeders, is because of Curse, which can faze through grass types and magic bounce users as well as substitute, essentially throwing that weakness out the door, and also, doesn't cripple your HP, because of Aguav berry.

While this is extremely weak to it's respective type weaknesses (with stab), and the move taunt, it has great potential as a stall mon.

 

[Sanctus Janus]

I would like to propose Trevenant from Unranked to Untested

With a unique ability that is only shared with alolan exxegutor, (which can't really fully utilize it) it has a strong potential as a seeder.
If you run an HP stat that is dividable by 4, you can pull off three subs and heal 50% with the pinch berries.
This essentially beats anything that it a move does less than 80%
This is the main set:
Trevenant @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 244 HP
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Substitute
- Curse

It's main niche, is that it can run either the role of a special tank, or a physical tank, walling out their respective threats.
A physically bulky trevenant can beat: non z-fly physical dragonite, M-Metagross, Donphan, Garchomp, Haxorus, M-Mawile and a bunch of others.
While a specially bulky set can beat: Magearna, some Leles, Meloetta, Mew, Genesect, Naganadel and other threats as well.
The main reason I believe this shines over other sub seeders, is because of Curse, which can faze through grass types and magic bounce users as well as substitute, essentially throwing that weakness out the door, and also, doesn't cripple your HP, because of Aguav berry.

While this is extremely weak to it's respective type weaknesses (with stab), and the move taunt, it has great potential as a stall mon.

I like phantom force sub seed will o wisp or rest chesto berry from my testing, but overall it is a grass type that looses to the two best water types in the tier

 

[M24]

I like phantom force sub seed will o wisp or rest chesto berry from my testing, but overall it is a grass type that looses to the two best water types in the tier

252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 204-242 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Actually beats Gren without taunt or icium z.
But yes, it does lose badly to Gyara.

 

[Rosa]

Hi. I appreciate your interest in trying to adequately rank Pokemon, but I kindly ask you to make more substantial posts than what you've been doing thus far, as it just ends up cluttering the thread and preventing discussion on better-constructed posts.

If you'd like to have more of a back-and-forth with people about particular Pokemon, I'd suggest going to either the 1v1 Discord (the vr discussion and teambuilding channels in particular) or the 1v1 Room on Showdown.

In the meantime, Quote please wipe all the oneliner posts

 

[Boat (phiwings99)]

Nomming Lucario-Mega for B/B-

Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Reversal
- Swords Dance
- Meteor Mash
- Substitute

Standard Sub-Reversal is a much more substantial threat than most people expect. Lucario lives in a really good speed tier, with 252 Jolly hitting 355, outpacing typically fast mons such as Archeops, Diancie-Mega, Kartana, and all base 100s. This lets it get a Substitute off vs most Pokemon in the meta, and get down to the insane 200 BP Reversal. This thing is such a nuke, anything that doesn't resist it is probably dead, and some things that resist it still die. Here are some example calcs to show its power.

Standard ID CM Magearna 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Reversal (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 418-494 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Standard Yawn Swampert 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Reversal (200 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Swampert-Mega: 436-514 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Offensive Charizard-Mega-Y 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 290-342 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

So this thing hits hard. Reversal and Substitute are obvious. Meteor Mash is for hitting fairy and rock types such as Tapu Lele, Gardevoir, Diancie, Archeops, Clefable, and Whimsicott. Swords Dance is important for boosting to hit otherwise bulky walls like Venusaur and Kee Berry Mew. It is also necessary to keep up in the boosting war vs Magearna. Inner Focus is a niche ability that is useful in matchups like Togekiss, Jirachi, and Incineroar.

Matchups

S Rank : 1.5/4 (Magearna, and Charizard without Flame Charge)
A+ Rank : 1/2 (Lele)
A Rank : .5/7 (Kee Berry Mew)
A- Rank : 3/6 (Gardevoir, Jumpluff, Togekiss)
B+ Rank : 8.5/16 (Altaria, non physdef Celesteela, Clefable, non-scarf Garchomp, non-scarf Genesect, Heatran, Sableye, Tyranitar, Venusaur)
B Rank : 5.5/14 (Ferrothorn, Incineroar, Jirachi, Kartana, Porygon2, non-Babiri Whimsicott)

So it's matchups aren't incredible, losing to most of S and A Rank. However, beating half of A+, A-, B+, and B Rank is still way beyond anything the rest of the Pokemon in C- do, and I think B- Rank at worst is appropriate considering it has better matchups than nearly everything in B- and even some things in B Rank (seriously Naganadel should not be B Rank).

 

[Quote]

I've lost my patience with you guys. I see any more crappy one-liners in this or any other thread here and I'm going to nuke them the moment I see them and infract you.
Carry on.

 

[JustANoobie]

Milotic's Matchup chart

S Rank(2,25/5)

Charizard-Mega L vs Zard-Y because Solar Beam, W vs non specially invested X with Z-Dragon pulse

Dragonite L vs physical, 50/50 vs special (with fast Z-DPulse milo)

Gyarados-Mega I'd say W, the truth is no Milotic set covers all of the EVing Gyarados can do, but it covers a large enough portion of it

Magearna L, too bulky, too strong

A+ Rank(0,79557/2)

Porygon-Z W unless Tbolt Z-Conv (Pretty sure it's a W vs Shadow ball)

Tapu Lele L, too fast, too strong

A Rank (1/7)

Greninja Loses to protean Grass knot, UT for the rest

Magnezone L, Obvious

Meloetta L, kinda like vs Mag

Metagross-Mega L, too bad MGyara is a thing. Thunder Punch everywhere

Mew L, I have no faith in this one

Slowbro-Mega L, out-tanked easily. Unless you play the stall game that would only win you this matchup

Zygarde-Complete W with Ice Beam, outspeeds and 2HKO it despite PC

A- Rank (1,7/6)

Aegislash UT, a W is not excluded

Gardevoir-Mega L vs CM, so flat L.

Jumpluff L, Trapped

Kommo-o L, Z-DPulse can't save you

Landorus-Therian W if you can tank a hit (aka if no Groundium Z)

Togekiss RNG is in you favor (But I fear I miss something here)

B+ Rank (5/17)

Altaria-Mega W

Celesteela L, Walled

Clefable UT

Donphan L, you do NOT survive the Z move

Garchomp Actually a W with enough bulk. Praise Ice Beam

Genesect The Damage Calc says W, possible one shot with Z-HPump

Heatran I want to say W, but Bloom doom is everywhere and is trashing poor Milo

Magneton L, Same as Zone

Mawile-Mega W with Hydro Pump. A tad bit more complicated if it decides to run Hyper Cutter.

Primarina Energy Ball Wins it for Prima

Sableye-Mega UT. I won a few, but can't really tell how that matchup is supposed to go

Tapu Fini UT, probably a L

Tyranitar-Mega Actually a W with Waterium Z

Venusaur-Mega L, the reasons for those are numerous...

Victini L, Bolt Strike. Otherwise it's a W but Bolt strike is so good a coverage some use Electrium Z Victini

Zeraora L, One shotted.


B Rank

Aggron L, but at least Aggron must stay honest to stand a chance

Crustle L, Sturdy too good

Ferrothorn L, outtanked

Incineroar Roll dependant. Worth noting (or nah) that Milo oneshots it at least 2 times with HPump, so if you really need to counter Incineroar, just run full bulk to survive Fake out + MM

Jirachi W, but the RNG is everywhere in this matchup (Para from TPunch/Flinch)

Kartana L, OHKOed

Lopunny-Mega Fake out GI is all it takes to lose that matchup

Naganadel W with Dragonium Z/Icium Z (oh lord), L if you don't use those

Necrozma UT, but I imagine L

Pinsir-Mega 87.5% to lose (fresh out the damage calc)

Porygon2 UT again, idk his gimmick

Sawk W, Icy Wind wins here.

Volcarona W

Whimsicott L, can't touch this

B- Rank

Ambipom L

Archeops L

Audino-Mega L

Blastoise-Mega Might be a L

Blaziken W but playing around protect/sub can be hard

Camerupt-Mega W

Carracosta "Crushing" L

Deoxys-S L vs both type of sets

Diancie-Mega W if you don't miss

Durant Never saw it

Golem "Crushing" L

Haxorus W vs Scarf with Dragonium Z, Loses otherwise

Hoopa-Unbound L

Krookodile W

Kyurem W (yes daddy I like your Noble roar) (use DPulse to break through)

Latias-Mega L, outwalled

Manaphy L, Tail Glow + can't hit that

Medicham-Mega L, oneshotted by HJK

Pheromosa L

Raikou Probably L too

Scizor-Mega Need HP fire to reliably win vs it.

Serperior L like Leaf Storm

Swampert-Mega Can bait the Mirror Coat set, but loses to Yawn.

Tapu Bulu L

Type: Null Probably W (Milo loves Confide)

Vivillon L, It's a trap

Zapdos L

... I was trying to rank Milotic... And maybe C is all it deserves...

Edit : nvm MC exist and does wonders for Milo

 

[Quote]

Milotic's Matchup chart

S Rank(2,25/5)

Charizard-Mega L vs Zard-Y because Solar Beam, W vs non specially invested X with Z-Dragon pulse

Dragonite L vs physical, 50/50 vs special (with fast Z-DPulse milo)

Gyarados-Mega I'd say W, the truth is no Milotic set covers all of the EVing Gyarados can do, but it covers a large enough portion of it

Magearna L, too bulky, too strong

A+ Rank(0,79557/2)

Porygon-Z W unless Tbolt Z-Conv (Pretty sure it's a W vs Shadow ball)

Tapu Lele L, too fast, too strong

A Rank (1/7)

Greninja Loses to protean Grass knot, UT for the rest

Magnezone L, Obvious

Meloetta L, kinda like vs Mag

Metagross-Mega L, too bad MGyara is a thing. Thunder Punch everywhere

Mew L, I have no faith in this one

Slowbro-Mega L, out-tanked easily. Unless you play the stall game that would only win you this matchup

Zygarde-Complete W with Ice Beam, outspeeds and 2HKO it despite PC

A- Rank (1,7/6)

Aegislash UT, a W is not excluded

Gardevoir-Mega L vs CM, so flat L.

Jumpluff L, Trapped

Kommo-o L, Z-DPulse can't save you

Landorus-Therian W if you can tank a hit (aka if no Groundium Z)

Togekiss RNG is in you favor (But I fear I miss something here)

B+ Rank (5/17)

Altaria-Mega W

Celesteela L, Walled

Clefable UT

Donphan L, you do NOT survive the Z move

Garchomp Actually a W with enough bulk. Praise Ice Beam

Genesect The Damage Calc says W, possible one shot with Z-HPump

Heatran I want to say W, but Bloom doom is everywhere and is trashing poor Milo

Magneton L, Same as Zone

Mawile-Mega W with Hydro Pump. A tad bit more complicated if it decides to run Hyper Cutter.

Primarina Energy Ball Wins it for Prima

Sableye-Mega UT. I won a few, but can't really tell how that matchup is supposed to go

Tapu Fini UT, probably a L

Tyranitar-Mega Actually a W with Waterium Z

Venusaur-Mega L, the reasons for those are numerous...

Victini L, Bolt Strike. Otherwise it's a W but Bolt strike is so good a coverage some use Electrium Z Victini

Zeraora L, One shotted.


B Rank

Aggron L, but at least Aggron must stay honest to stand a chance

Crustle L, Sturdy too good

Ferrothorn L, outtanked

Incineroar Roll dependant. Worth noting (or nah) that Milo oneshots it at least 2 times with HPump, so if you really need to counter Incineroar, just run full bulk to survive Fake out + MM

Jirachi W, but the RNG is everywhere in this matchup (Para from TPunch/Flinch)

Kartana L, OHKOed

Lopunny-Mega Fake out GI is all it takes to lose that matchup

Naganadel W with Dragonium Z/Icium Z (oh lord), L if you don't use those

Necrozma UT, but I imagine L

Pinsir-Mega 87.5% to lose (fresh out the damage calc)

Porygon2 UT again, idk his gimmick

Sawk W, Icy Wind wins here.

Volcarona W

Whimsicott L, can't touch this

B- Rank

Ambipom L

Archeops L

Audino-Mega L

Blastoise-Mega Might be a L

Blaziken W but playing around protect/sub can be hard

Camerupt-Mega W

Carracosta "Crushing" L

Deoxys-S L vs both type of sets

Diancie-Mega W if you don't miss

Durant Never saw it

Golem "Crushing" L

Haxorus W vs Scarf with Dragonium Z, Loses otherwise

Hoopa-Unbound L

Krookodile W

Kyurem W (yes daddy I like your Noble roar) (use DPulse to break through)

Latias-Mega L, outwalled

Manaphy L, Tail Glow + can't hit that

Medicham-Mega L, oneshotted by HJK

Pheromosa L

Raikou Probably L too

Scizor-Mega Need HP fire to reliably win vs it.

Serperior L like Leaf Storm

Swampert-Mega Can bait the Mirror Coat set, but loses to Yawn.

Tapu Bulu L

Type: Null Probably W (Milo loves Confide)

Vivillon L, It's a trap

Zapdos L

... I was trying to rank Milotic... And maybe C is all it deserves...

Edit : nvm MC exist and does wonders for Milo

Can you explain in more detail what Milotic is meant to do? Throwing out a bunch of Ws and Ls is cool but for something in UR/UT you have to give proper details as to why it should be ranked. Include replays, give examples of sets or even teams it can work with. I don't want to see matchups by themselves because that completely disregards how it actually functions on a team and in battle.

 

[Chrispy Burns]

Jumpluff and Whim should be tied,

The advantage jump has over whim is sleep accuracy (75 or 82.5 vs 55 or 60.5) sleep powder vs grass whistle. Other than that, Whim makes that lost ground up through stats and typing. Whim has higher speed and lower hp allowing it to recover more from leech seed and outspeed 110 speed mons.
Whim worries less about Rock Blast and Ice Shard as it takes half what Jumpluff takes due to typing. Whim's prankster allows it to handle more threats than Jumpluff such as Flame Charge, faster mons, and +1 priority moves up to its own speed. While the main drawback is the fact that prankster can't hit dark types, Whim has the option to get the jump on opponents by even running infiltrator. While that is laughable, that is what Jumpluff uses every day. For the joking offensive Jumpluff running swords dance and acrobatics, Whim has access to fake tears into Moonblast, Giga Drain, Hurricane, etc. Moonblast will do 6% (0 evs)~3%(252+ evs) more with the same investments and Whim keeps its item. Whim will also enjoy being physically bulkier than Jumpluff and still running less hp. This is shown off more in the cotton guard sets.

Where Jumpluff pulls ahead from Whim are the parts of jumpluff's moveset that people ignore such as recovery (synthesis and strength sap) but again these are redundant on the hp regen sets the two run. The second advantage is the sleep accuracy, but again, 82.5 vs 60.5 is not too great. The third advantage is that acrobatics will hit opposing grass types but honestly just find a better teammate for dealing with grass types instead of ruining a viable mon like putting ketchup on a $20 steak.

All in all, I'm siding with the fact that whim might even be better than Jumpluff but the two are so comparable that I brought up offensive sets. All pretzels is the same, make whim and jumpluff tied on the VR.

 

[JustANoobie]

Can you explain in more detail what Milotic is meant to do? Throwing out a bunch of Ws and Ls is cool but for something in UR/UT you have to give proper details as to why it should be ranked. Include replays, give examples of sets or even teams it can work with. I don't want to see matchups by themselves because that completely disregards how it actually functions on a team and in battle.

Ok then. Basically what Milotic is supposed to do is hard counter mons with intimidate or mons that rely heavily on lowering your stats, because Competitive boost your SpA by 2 stage for each stat that is lowered (yes Noble Roar is a +3 SpA for Milo).
On top of that, you can use his nice base SpA (nothing groundshaking, but nothing to scoff at either) to nuke a few things with either a Z-move or specs.
Despite his lack of coverage, it gets a bit of versatility with moves like Icy Wind to break sturdy (beating GolDon with a heavily defensive EV spread), Mirror Coat to thrive vs other water mons like Prima, the use of different Z-crystals to beat different mons, or just use specs if your goal is to nuke a wide variety of mons. That being said, choice loses any matchup that requires your brain for Milo.

In terms of EVs, I'd recommand going for a bulky set, because contrary to most mons in his tier, it doesn't have a way to boost its speed, and also trying to outspeed the bulkier sets actually makes it too frail or too weak to nail the Ws it needs.

As for what teammates goes with it, I've only tried FWG teams with it, and so it works well as a MDos bait since that latter doesn't fear Grass types it seems.

 

[stableprince569]

Jumpluff and Whim should be tied,

The advantage jump has over whim is sleep accuracy (75 or 82.5 vs 55 or 60.5) sleep powder vs grass whistle. Other than that, Whim makes that lost ground up through stats and typing. Whim has higher speed and lower hp allowing it to recover more from leech seed and outspeed 110 speed mons.
Whim worries less about Rock Blast and Ice Shard as it takes half what Jumpluff takes due to typing. Whim's prankster allows it to handle more threats than Jumpluff such as Flame Charge, faster mons, and +1 priority moves up to its own speed. While the main drawback is the fact that prankster can't hit dark types, Whim has the option to get the jump on opponents by even running infiltrator. While that is laughable, that is what Jumpluff uses every day. For the joking offensive Jumpluff running swords dance and acrobatics, Whim has access to fake tears into Moonblast, Giga Drain, Hurricane, etc. Moonblast will do 6% (0 evs)~3%(252+ evs) more with the same investments and Whim keeps its item. Whim will also enjoy being physically bulkier than Jumpluff and still running less hp. This is shown off more in the cotton guard sets.

Where Jumpluff pulls ahead from Whim are the parts of jumpluff's moveset that people ignore such as recovery (synthesis and strength sap) but again these are redundant on the hp regen sets the two run. The second advantage is the sleep accuracy, but again, 82.5 vs 60.5 is not too great. The third advantage is that acrobatics will hit opposing grass types but honestly just find a better teammate for dealing with grass types instead of ruining a viable mon like putting ketchup on a $20 steak.

All in all, I'm siding with the fact that whim might even be better than Jumpluff but the two are so comparable that I brought up offensive sets. All pretzels is the same, make whim and jumpluff tied on the VR.

The thing about jumpluff, is that it's an <80% cheesy win against things that are slower than 110 base speed, and taunt/flame charge/dragon dance can still beat.
Whimsicott is denied by Dark types (but it can use this as an advantage, by baiting them and running moonblast), and it needs to invest in bulk as it doesn't get the free sleep turn.
Whimsicott, though, can also run Bright Powder + Grass Whistle, which combined gives a higher win% than Jumpluff, and it can also run Infiltrator for higher speed + ability to beat Dark types. It also runs Taunt to beat other taunters.
Other than that, Jumpluff only has one set, while Whimsi runs all sorts of stuff, like Z-Charm, Occa Berry, Babiri Berry etc.
It also has access to Hurricane to challenge other Grass types such as Serperior, Tapu Bulu and Jumpluff
Honestly, I still don't understand why Jumpluff is ranked this high and Whimsicott is that low

 

[Rosa]

The 1v1 Metagame: A Defense of VR Matchups

I'd like to address the elephant in the room, starting this post off: yes, 1v1 is a matchup-oriented metagame; games can be inherently lost before either player sends out a Pokemon. While this notion does exist in other metagames, it is rooted the strongest in 1v1. Despite how this line of thought may hinder us as a "competitive" metagame, it doesn't necessarily leave us devoid of competition, either. We have a greater number of strong-to-adequate players who consistently win or perform well in tournaments and ladder than those who don't, which is indication enough that there is at least some nonzero amount of skill to be gained from long-term exposure to the metagame.

With that said, 1v1 is still quite fundamentally different as a matchup-oriented metagame in comparison to something like Monotype, namely through the differences in which roles a given Pokemon performs for its team, and the other branching aspects that are impacted by this. In 1v1, supportive roles outright no longer exist in regards to viable teambuilding; there is no team to support with moves like Heal Bell and Memento, and long term goals such as chipping with hazards just aren't as effective. The ultimate end result each player is trying to achieve is knocking out the single opposing Pokemon with your own single Pokemon. This sole notion drastically changes the meaning of the word "role", when used in the context of 1v1. In 1v1, a Pokemon's "role" is much more heavily defined upon the Pokemon's interaction with other Pokemon in the metagame, namely whether or not it beats them and to what extent of reliability that it beats them. Take the common Fire Water Grass core, for example; the role each of these Pokemon provides for the team is the coverage of a variety of potential threats such that the combination of all three of them into a team leaves the team as a whole with very limited weaknesses at team preview.

Now where does a Pokemon's viability fit into all of this? In just about every other metagame, a Pokemon's viability is derived from its ability to perform at whatever its given role may be, within the context of having to deal with the presence of other viable Pokemon in the metagame. In 1v1, it's about the same, however 1v1's concept of roles makes defining viability notably more one-dimensional; with each player's only concern for win conditions being the ability to knock out a single Pokemon, meaning that the most viable Pokemon in 1v1 are those inherently able to handle the widest variety of viable Pokemon while proportionately balancing out the opportunity cost between differing sets, should the Pokemon have any alternative options. Notable examples of this are the highest ranked Pokemon in 1v1, between Charizard's ability to bluff being X or Y at preview, Magearna's ability to bluff Specs or Fairium, and Dragonite having viable Physical and Special Z-moves for both of its STABs, in addition to a plethora of alternative sets like Choice items, Firium, Groundium, and Electrium. Even Gyarados, though more straightforward than the other S ranks, has the ability to cast doubt between potential spreads or coverage moves it can run, as well as even a Flyinium set with its base form.

At this point, things begin getting a lot more subjective with how perceptions can be drawn of a given Pokemon's viability;

• Beating a lot of Pokemon may not necessarily make the Pokemon viable in everyone's eyes, if it shares that niche with other pre-established Pokemon.
• Influencing your opponents pick at team preview is incredibly subjective; not every individual person's thought process on picking at preview will be the same (especially when you play them for multiple games!), and as a result, this is more of something that falls upon the player and their level of skill in making reads or teambuilding to lure people into picking a certain way, rather than an aspect of assessing a Pokemon's viability.
• Just saying a Pokemon is good doesn't necessarily mean it's good. This includes droning on about stats, movepools, etc. Viability, or general "goodness", come from a Pokemon's worth in the context of each given metagame, and it falls on the party seeking change to illustrate how a Pokemon performs in a given context; this includes both positives and negatives; only something completely broken should ever be described solely with positives.
• A Pokemon's ability to synergize with others is a somewhat subjective notion that is commonly used in arguments, despite how team synergy can have different meanings within different contexts.
  • A Pokemon can synergize well in a balanced team where you're trying to leave as few exploitable weaknesses as possible by having each Pokemon cover each other's weaknesses.
  • A Pokemon can also synergize well in an unbalanced team where you're trying to build for a particular purpose, such as preparing for all of the Pokemon a given opponent in a tournament commonly runs, or building a team that baits in opposing Pokemon with Pokemon that seem as if they lose to that Pokemon.
• A Pokemon's usage is a common, though fallable, argument in ranking debates that often lends to the ideology that "a Pokemon can only be good if it is used a lot, and only Pokemon that are good get used a lot".
  • The ladder (especially 1v1's) is often a mess of everything, in addition to how we don't have a reliable set of usage stats that filters only good players without only being limited to a single digit number of players (1630 stats allow for people with at least 63% GXE and higher to qualify, while 1760 stats only allow people with at least about 75 or 76% GXE to qualify). A more ideal Glicko-1 range to use for 1v1 would be 1700, which lands right in the middle with about 70% minimum GXE being able to qualify.
  • Tournament usage stats, while certainly more consistent in terms of overall player level, can still be iffy, on account of all the prepping for particular opponents that goes on.
• Even VR matchups themselves aren't perfect. They require great care in ensuring that your point is clearly illustrated; it can be very easy to brush aside matchups like Charizard-Y vs Magnezone as a complete loss, despite that not being the case with the possibility of an Air Slash flinch. Additionally, VR matchups aren't entirely conducive to debate when given without the context of a set and/or paragraphs of explanation, akin to giving someone a dictionary and expecting them to learn English.

All-in-all, each of these points can greatly contribute to your ability to illustrate a Pokemon's worth in the 1v1 metagame, but they don't necessarily work as standalone arguments unless done very meticulously. I apologize if I ever made out VR matchups as some kind of be-all-end-all for determining viability, instead of the tool for illustrating roles alongside all these other options as they are meant to be.

also dom is on the vr council now yay

 

[lost heros]

nom nom nom


Zeraora B+ > A-

Zeraora is the premier fast Electric-type Pokemon currently in 1v1. With a blistering fast speed tier, access to strong physical and special moves, and ability to use several utility moves, Zeraora is extremely versatile and powerful for 1v1. For nearly all sets, Fake out provides free damage that can slightly boost the damage that Zeraora puts out. Let's break down the most powerful sets.

Mixed Electrium Z: While neither of Zeraora's attack stats are particularly notable, thanks to Charge, Zeroara can effectively have either Nasty Plot or Swords Dance depending on the match up + some free special bulk and then nuking literally anything with Gigavolt Havoc.

Physical Biased Utility Electrium Z Sets: With so many different options for utility including Fake Out, Bulk Up, Charge, Laser Focus, and Taunt, Zeraora can choose to target stall pokemon, non-boosting Physical or Special Pokemon or more at the same time with just any two attacks + two of these utility moves.

Life Orb and Choice Band: These set takes full advantage of Zeraora's amazing moveset. Fake Out Boosted Life Orb can do more damage than just Choice Band, but Choice Band notably lets you run Plasma Fists, Close Combats, Outrage, and Iron Tail all in one set. All super powerful moves that can potentially take out Pokemon that could counter Zeraora: Close Combat for Steel-types, Outrage for Dragon-types, and Iron Tail for Fairy-types.

Dragonium Z: This set is one of the many lures that Zeroara can run to target whatever it needs to. In this case we're targeting Charizard specifically. With many Mega Charizard X's shifting to specially defensive sets, this set can knock out Mega Charizard X on reveal.
252 Atk Zeraora Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 37-44 (10.2 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 340-402 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Specially Biased lures: While not nearly as prominent as the rest of these sets, Zeraora can focus more on its special moveset including Grass Knot to target some 4x weak pokemon like Golem and Swampert.

Despite all these options, there are still some more options that Zeraora can still explore. Calm Mind is an option as well as a degenerate Bright Powder + Sub set still are options.


Magneton B+ > C+

Magneton is such a weird Pokemon to have so high up. The highly specific speed creep on Magnezone by 10 base speed is pitiful. Magneton isn't even fast. With base 70 speed it can use Electroweb in combination with Sturdy to ensure you get a 2HKO. Just like Magnezone can. For comparison, top speed Magnezone can use Electroweb to outspeed base 114s, while Magneton can outspeed 129s. Which would be cool, if there was anything important in this speed tier that Magnezone doesn't already beat. Raikou? Naganadel? Salazzle? All of these are just, so bad. Now of course the real speed tier that this targets is, bulky Mega Gyarados and Dragonite that accidentally fall in that range by pure coincidence. Of course it's pretty obvious that these two Pokemon have options to beat Magneton anyways by either running more speed or in Dragonite's case Extreme Speed.

Response to osra's B- post, because oh my god B- so bad

Ambipom
Adequate. This weird monkey is surprisingly good. Fake Out + Giga Impact gets a lot of kills with either Normalium for the accuracy and access to Z-Tickle or Life Orb for the extra damage on Fake Out and whatever your coverage move is. That said, it does struggle with a lot of the lower tier mons, so its main niche is just being anti-meta as fuq, and should be used sparingly, as a result. Way better at its job than anything else in C+, not as generally reliable as most things in B.

Sure Fake Out + Giga Impact is good, but Mega Lopunny is stronger faster and is used at least partially because of its fantastic ability. Oh and it's only ranked B (rather appropriately). So the advantage is access to tickle in exchange for Fighting STAB and Sub, Encore, and other utility moves.

Nomming Ambipom from B- to C

Audino-Mega/Type:Null
Adequate. Audino-Mega is branched under a very similar archetype to Type:Null, but does so in a notably different way, namely getting a +2 Spdef boosting move in Amnesia and a -1 Atk lowering move in Baby-Doll Eyes/Growl, the opposite of Null's setup with Iron Defense and Confide. Despite this difference, the two cover a very similar blanket of Pokemon, with Audino getting some slight advantages in having that Fairy typing and the ability to mindgame with whether or not it megas, versus Type:Null's immunity to crits, a pivotal necessity for most stall mons. Because the differences between these two balance out one another, I feel that they both belong in the same rank, regardless of whether they rise or fall. With that said, there's been a considerable surge of support for Type:Null to rise because "nothing can 2HKO" it, but people need to realize that you only need to 3HKO Type:Null, since Rest takes up 3 turns; this matters for far more scenarios than you may even be aware of, namely Charizard-X, Dragonite, Tapu Lele (which can also just win with Z-Calm Mind), Meloetta, Genesis Supernova Mew, Lando-T, Garchomp, Mawile, Zeraora, etc.

Audino-Mega is like Type: Null if something like Ninetales is like Mega Charizard Y. Sure they both stall and get some defensive set up, but Type: Null is so much bulkier and isn't taunt-bait. Forcing an offensive pokemon to use a set up move as its answer is more reminiscent of Mega Slowbro than it is of Mega Audino.

Nomming Type: Null from B- to B
Audino-Mega from B- to C+

Blaziken
Adequate. I love Blaziken, honestly. The biggest issue with this mon is that it just can't run all the moves it wants to in a single set. It also just hasn't really been explored beyond generic 252/252 sets. That said, I have a set in mind that I'll save for a later post, since it doesn't really fit in with the point of this post.

While I agree that Blaziken should not rise without a significant metagame shift, I don't think exploration is really necessary for it. What this pokemon wants to do is what its always done. You hit fast with a strong STAB move. Sure you can go for Z Will-o-Wisp if you really want to, but it doesn't really help its match-ups like at all. Either way tho, Blaziken is a good example of what I think a B- pokemon is. Something that has a particularly strong couple of sets that don't necessarily match up with what the metagame demands on it.

Durant
Possibly drop to C+. Like Camerupt, Durant has a good raw number of advantageous matchups, but struggles with reliably beating them all. Durant's main issue, however, is that it's forced to rely on 80% or less accurate moves for literally ALL of its matchups. This means that anything it has to 2HKO becomes a 64% chance of doing so with hitting consecutive Iron Head and X-Scissor, while Stone Edge already has 80% accuracy, thus being reduced to 64% accuracy, due to Hustle.

I agree with everything here and literally always have. I'm sure there are discord log records of me telling UOP this exact sentiment.

Nomming Durant from B- to C+

Raikou
Possibly drop to C+. Raikou rose in popularity due to its perceived ability to take on multiple high ranked threats of 1v1, between Charizard-Y, Gyarados, Magearna, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, etc, however, this mon is very stretched regarding things it needs to EV for; needing way too much SpA for specially bulky mons like Magearna, Meloetta, Lele, Metagross, Gardevoir, etc; needing way too much physical bulk to take attacks from mons like Metagross, Mawile, Crustle, Incineroar, etc; and needing a ton of Speed to outspeed what it needs to between Zard-Y, Kartana, Jumpluff, etc. While it can beat all of these things individually, it just cannot do so in a single spread, and it sacrifices a lot of potential wins in picking one given spread over another, in addition to not really having that many cumulative wins across all of its differing spreads. For this reason, I feel Raikou may need to drop to C+ until someone can produce an optimized set that takes on everything it needs to (I tried, and couldn't make it happen).

I don't really understand Raikou's role in the metagame to be honest. In between Zeraora, Magnezone, Zapdos each have a specific niche in what they as an electric type does. Calm Mind? Pressure? Laser Focus? Inner Focus (lol). Idk Zeraora focuses on the big fast damage. Magnezone focuses on 2HKOs. Zapdos semi-stalls better. So why run Raikou? idk. I don't get t.

Nomming Raikou from B- to C+

 

[Kaif]

uh dom is back on the vr council go registeel S rank !!!!
and uh I agree with most of this except

I agree with everything here and literally always have. I'm sure there are discord log records of me telling UOP this exact sentiment.

Nomming Durant from B- to C+

zmoves exist. groundium and rockium have been seen to mixed amounts of success, theres no reason to c+ this mon when it does what it has always done. Kill zards + extra

 

[Kaif]

I personally would not say it kills Zards + extra with his ability. If Durant does not run Rockium you have a 64% chance of hitting Stone Edge which is only a bit more than Hypnosis from MGar or you create a 50/50 with groudium whether the Zard x mega evolves or not. With Hustle you always have a chance of nor hitting moves which can be really annoying and is inconsistent.Thats why I personally think it is fine at C+.

just hit 4Head. Alongside the fact that groundium also hits uh magearna and uhh ground weak stuff, 64% accuracy is great.

 

[Freddy Kyogre]

Magneton B+ > C+

Magneton is such a weird Pokemon to have so high up. The highly specific speed creep on Magnezone by 10 base speed is pitiful. Magneton isn't even fast. With base 70 speed it can use Electroweb in combination with Sturdy to ensure you get a 2HKO. Just like Magnezone can. For comparison, top speed Magnezone can use Electroweb to outspeed base 114s, while Magneton can outspeed 129s. Which would be cool, if there was anything important in this speed tier that Magnezone doesn't already beat. Raikou? Naganadel? Salazzle? All of these are just, so bad. Now of course the real speed tier that this targets is, bulky Mega Gyarados and Dragonite that accidentally fall in that range by pure coincidence. Of course it's pretty obvious that these two Pokemon have options to beat Magneton anyways by either running more speed or in Dragonite's case Extreme Speed.

i hate things like these

not once in here did you say about why someone should run magnezone over magneton. all you did was talk about why magnetons speed is irrelevant at times while citing literally nothing that magnezone does better than magneton. this part of your post shows absolutely nothing in terms of what a pokemon can / can't do, and is completely meaningless because you don't have anything actually substantial in here except highlighting why people do run magneton over magnezone. you've only shown reason why it SHOULD be run over magnezone, not why magnezone is "better." thats especially substantial considering you nommed it an entire letter below where it currently is. fix this please.

 

[Eriey]

i hate things like these

not once in here did you say about why someone should run magnezone over magneton. all you did was talk about why magnetons speed is irrelevant at times while citing literally nothing that magnezone does better than magneton. this part of your post shows absolutely nothing in terms of what a pokemon can / can't do, and is completely meaningless because you don't have anything actually substantial in here except highlighting why people do run magneton over magnezone. you've only shown reason why it SHOULD be run over magnezone, not why magnezone is "better." thats especially substantial considering you nommed it an entire letter below where it currently is. fix this please.

Well I've got a little bit idk if this is already known but I might as well share it
Stuff is long so I'm going to put hide boxes

Magneton

Magneton's best chance against Bulky Gardevoir is Zap Cannon's 50% accuracy
8 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 70-83 (29 - 34.4%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 201-237 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magneton Electroweb vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 67-79 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Magneton Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 226-267 (67 - 79.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO that 25% chance is with max roll on Electroweb

Meanwhile, Magnezone

Magnezone doesn't actually outspeed with Electroweb so instead it just tanks the Psyshock to Hyper Beam
8 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 59-70 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
8 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 165-194 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
204+ SpA Magnezone Electroweb vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 75-88 (22.2 - 26.1%) 6.4% chance to 4HKO
204+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 240 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 255-300 (75.6 - 89%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO this is with minimum Electroweb roll
This does have a problem with Calm Mind, so let's forget about this, and instead let's use Metal Sound turn one
204+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. -1 240 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 382-450 (113.3 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO if it just uses Calm Mind once then starts attacking, it'll die, so it has to use Calm Mind twice in a row
This means it's at neutral while you're attacking it with Z-Zap Cannon, which also means the following one or two Electrowebs will finish it off
Magneton can't do the same thing because it dies to the attacks unlike Magnezone so let's bring in probabilities

Magneton: 50% (Zap Cannon) well not exactly because of Calm Mind shenanigans but you get the point
Magnezone: 65.65% (Metal Sound, Electroweb damage roll, Electroweb Accuracy)
Edit: oh yeah and disregarding Hyper Beam miss because uh, same for both ig?
Edit: I woke up and I realized the roll doesn't make sense in this scenario, so it should be a little higher? The spread is 330 damage to 388, and the Gardevoir has 337 HP.
Of course with Flash Cannon or just 252 in SpA or Spe could raise this number
Is it worth c teaming Gyarados that c teams Magnezone? Idk maybe if you ran Flash Cannon
Generally there is not a very big difference, so as long as Magneton has some kind of niche over Magnezone it gets to keep its spot in my opinion
Although something Magnezone can potentially have is the element of surprise, because it just has more options than Magneton (specs, mirror coat bc of HP) which is linked to versatility which is linked to viability.

 

[Kaif]

okey we need some Kaif analysis because freddy is an egg (this isnt an insult get the fuck away smod)

Magneton: B+ > C+

This should be self explanatory for reasoning guys jfc. So, Magneton finds itself a niche in outspeeding gyarados sets that are not prepared for its speed, it is used over magnezone primarily for that reason as to my knowledge. What is the problem with this? Gyarados can simply run 168 Speed EVs with a boosting nature..hmm what else does magneton do what magnezone doesn't?

ok then just run flash cannon magnezone.

Magneton's only niche is ruined by simply running more speed on gyara, granted that you may not always be prepared for it. There are other options such as Zeraora, the aforementioned zone and maybe zapdos / raikou. Magneton does not deserve of the B+ ranking and definitely would be fine with C+ ranking.

 

[lost heros]

i hate things like these

not once in here did you say about why someone should run magnezone over magneton. all you did was talk about why magnetons speed is irrelevant at times while citing literally nothing that magnezone does better than magneton. this part of your post shows absolutely nothing in terms of what a pokemon can / can't do, and is completely meaningless because you don't have anything actually substantial in here except highlighting why people do run magneton over magnezone. you've only shown reason why it SHOULD be run over magnezone, not why magnezone is "better." thats especially substantial considering you nommed it an entire letter below where it currently is. fix this please.

I felt it was fairly obvious? Magnezone’s stronger and bulkier than Magneton is, but if you want to get in to the nitty gritty.

Mega Charizard X

Magnezone can beat offensive Mega Charizard X (without Flame Charge) with Zap Cannon or Metal Sound into Gigavolt Havoc thanks to being stronger and bulkier.

Magneton relies on paralysis rolls and damage rolls.


252+ SpA Magnezone Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 123-144 (41.4 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 194-228 (65.3 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Zap cannon into Gigavolt Havoc drops their speed below yours and 2HKOs. Metal sound works if they don’t Flare Blitz T1 as they run the risk of KOing themselves from recoil.



252 SpA Magneton Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 105-125 (35.3 - 42%)
252 SpA Magneton Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 167-197 (56.2 - 66.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Outrage 2HKOs before Zap and Gigavolt. Not that it matters because Magneton doesn’t have the health to threaten an OHKO on recoil.

Btw comparing modest Magnezone to timid Magneton because of usage history and it’s literally the point.

Tapu Lele

Magnezone can OHKO Tapu Lele with Gigavolt Havoc or pick up on a 2HKO from Flash Cannon if Tapu Lele goes for a CM.

Magneton cannot do this and is forced to rely on Zap Cannon hitting T1 so it can pick up the 2HKO on T2.

252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 303-357 (95.5 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magneton Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 144 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 259-306 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now I’m not going to go through the rest of the VR and directly compare Magnezone to Magneton because it’d be rather pointless. But overall Magneton is a knock-off Magnezone.

There is a very small niche over Magnezone that Magneton fills. In a game where every stat matters and people EV to hell and high water, losing so many in bulk and a handful in power to get that precious base 70 speed is rather pointless.

Furthermore, let’s not forget that Magnezone has access to and does run two forms of speed control simultaneously. Zap cannon, despite it’s 50% accuracy does drop the opponent’s speed by an effective two stages. This means that the match-ups that Magneton has with its speed, aren’t lost completely when using Magnezone.

 

[Rosa]

okey we need some Kaif analysis because freddy is an egg (this isnt an insult get the fuck away smod)

Magneton: B+ > C+

This should be self explanatory for reasoning guys jfc. So, Magneton finds itself a niche in outspeeding gyarados sets that are not prepared for its speed, it is used over magnezone primarily for that reason as to my knowledge. What is the problem with this? Gyarados can simply run 168 Speed EVs with a boosting nature..hmm what else does magneton do what magnezone doesn't?
View attachment 184963
ok then just run flash cannon magnezone.

Magneton's only niche is ruined by simply running more speed on gyara, granted that you may not always be prepared for it. There are other options such as Zeraora, the aforementioned zone and maybe zapdos / raikou. Magneton does not deserve of the B+ ranking and definitely would be fine with C+ ranking.

0+ SpA Meloetta Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 159-188 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 120-141 (42.7 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Meloetta 2HKOs you and outspeeds you, leaving your only chance being to land a raw Zap Cannon, while Magneton outspeeds a vast majority of Meloetta and wins, so long as it hits Metal Sound.

Magneton also outspeeds a vast majority of Heatran, allowing it to land a 2HKO with Electroweb into Z-Zap, while Magnezone has to hit another raw Zap Cannon, on account of Rock Tomb.

On the other hand, Magnezone snags a kill on Landorus-Therian with HP Ice, in addition to getting a 50/50 roll vs Garchomp, which is something Magneton outright cannot do.

All-in-all, the bulk and power that Magneton sacrifices matters for very little beyond the handful of matchups that you either are forced to 50/50 with hitting a raw Zap Cannon or just outright are at a considerable disadvantage in. With a Pokemon so nearly identical in viability to its counterpart, it only makes sense that both be ranked close to one another, albeit Magneton just a notch or two below.

That said, I do think there is a greater debate to be had about Pokemon in general that cover the same niche as one another, and whether or not "outclassed" Pokemon should be given mention.

 

[stableprince569]

0+ SpA Meloetta Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 159-188 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 120-141 (42.7 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Meloetta 2HKOs you and outspeeds you, leaving your only chance being to land a raw Zap Cannon, while Magneton outspeeds a vast majority of Meloetta and wins, so long as it hits Metal Sound.

Magneton also outspeeds a vast majority of Heatran, allowing it to land a 2HKO with Electroweb into Z-Zap, while Magnezone has to hit another raw Zap Cannon, on account of Rock Tomb.

On the other hand, Magnezone snags a kill on Landorus-Therian with HP Ice, in addition to getting a 50/50 roll vs Garchomp, which is something Magneton outright cannot do.

All-in-all, the bulk and power that Magneton sacrifices matters for very little beyond the handful of matchups that you either are forced to 50/50 with hitting a raw Zap Cannon or just outright are at a considerable disadvantage in. With a Pokemon so nearly identical in viability to its counterpart, it only makes sense that both be ranked close to one another, albeit Magneton just a notch or two below.

That said, I do think there is a greater debate to be had about Pokemon in general that cover the same niche as one another, and whether or not "outclassed" Pokemon should be given mention.

Instead of comparing the two Pokemon's matchups to one another (like people do with Ambipom and mLopunny, even tho they beat completely different things), I suggest we look at them as two completely different Pokemon, and rank them in disregard of one another. Take a look at both of their matchup lists and conclude a proper viability based on that factor. The fact that Magneton beats basically the same things as Magnezone but trades some matchups for others (beating most mGyarados is huge if you ask me, as many gyaras will not commit to so high Speed investments, preferring bulk or attack over it) is an already good indicator that Magneton deserves an A/A- spot, B+ at worst.

A general in-depth matchup analysis is still to be done, as Magneton has not seen much usage, but imho we should avoid ranking it as low as C+ tier.

 

[Eriey]

Instead of comparing the two Pokemon's matchups to one another (like people do with Ambipom and mLopunny, even tho they beat completely different things), I suggest we look at them as two completely different Pokemon, and rank them in disregard of one another. Take a look at both of their matchup lists and conclude a proper viability based on that factor. The fact that Magneton beats basically the same things as Magnezone but trades some matchups for others (beating most mGyarados is huge if you ask me, as many gyaras will not commit to so high Speed investments, preferring bulk or attack over it) is an already good indicator that Magneton deserves an A/A- spot, B+ at worst.

A general in-depth matchup analysis is still to be done, as Magneton has not seen much usage, but imho we should avoid ranking it as low as C+ tier.

See, the thing is that Magnezone is somewhat carried because it has more options than just a single set, in specs. Magneton can maybe swap between Protect and Hidden Power Ground. Just having more viable sets (specs is rated B+ in sets vr) indicates greater versatility, which is again linked to viability. Therefore, if the two Electrium Z sets are seen as equal in effectiveness, then Magnezone should be higher ranked because of its other options.

 

[lost heros]

Instead of comparing the two Pokemon's matchups to one another (like people do with Ambipom and mLopunny, even tho they beat completely different things), I suggest we look at them as two completely different Pokemon, and rank them in disregard of one another. Take a look at both of their matchup lists and conclude a proper viability based on that factor. The fact that Magneton beats basically the same things as Magnezone but trades some matchups for others (beating most mGyarados is huge if you ask me, as many gyaras will not commit to so high Speed investments, preferring bulk or attack over it) is an already good indicator that Magneton deserves an A/A- spot, B+ at worst.

A general in-depth matchup analysis is still to be done, as Magneton has not seen much usage, but imho we should avoid ranking it as low as C+ tier.

Except we should do literally the opposite of that. Magneton is a prime example of the failings of purely match-up analysis driven VR.

This type of analysis, fails to take into account one of the most important questions to ask when ranking a pokemon:
"When should I expect to use or encounter this pokemon?"

The best answer you can come up with when you just look at the match-ups would be "when you need to beat or are using this list of pokemon."
Unfortunately I cannot stress enough how awful of an answer this is. It doesn't tell you anything about the type of strategy this pokemon employs, how it works on a team, nor how to build a team with or around it. Does it perform a role in working as a lure? Does it exist to provide a hard counter? Does it target a group of popular pokemon?

So let's take a step back and try to actually answer this question for both Magnezone and Magneton. Yes this answer won't be perfect, objective, a simple list or percentage, but that's ok. This answer should strive first and foremost to understand the pokemon.

So when should I use and expect to encounter Magnezone?
Magnezone has a high Special attack with a strong Electric STAB move, access to Sturdy, Metal Sound, speed control, and can use a wide variety of items. Becayse of this, Magnezone can be used to hard target nearly everything that its Electric STAB threatens, as well as many neutrals that don't have extreme bulk or priority. It's excellent at beating pokemon that want to hit as hard as possible as soon as possible like Mega Charizard Y and Porygon-Z, but it also isn't scared of moderately bulky pokemon thanks to its speed control, nor is it scared of pure stall pokemon thanks to Metal Sound. It also works well as a lure for Ground types thanks to either HP Ice or Air Balloon and Magnet Rise. It is however scared of bulky pokemon that run priority and Fake Out and Mold breaker tho often it's not a simple lose situation and is also scared of pokemon that use alternate win-conditions like Whimsicott and Jumpluff.

So when should I use and expect to encounter Magneton?
When I wanted to use max speed Electrium Z Magnezone but Adamant Earthquake 88+ speed Mega Gyarados (and other pokemon that land in 240-261 speed range that can OHKO Magnezone) 3-0's my team and is popular in the current micro-metagame of the ladder. Magneton can do similar things to Magnezone and excels at targeting most of the same threats. It's a bit more cautious of the bulkier pokemon and can't quite hit ground-types as well. It doesn't have the versatility that Magnezone does, as attempts to run different sets are usually just inferior versions of the same set Magnezone would run. It also loses to nearly all the same things Magnezone loses to.

Alright, so why is all of this important? Well now that we understand the roles that each of these pokemon play and the niches they fill we can rank them appropriately. Magnezone is well ranked, and most of us agree that it belongs in A/A- that's fine. The issue is that because Magnezone is so good, and Magneton can do most of the time what Magnezone can people think that it also belongs relatively high up in the VR. But that shouldn't be the case. Its niche is mostly fulfilled by another pokemon, which is hugely detrimental to its viability and usage. This means Magneton ISN'T considered as often as its match-ups would imply nor should it be. It is frankly not as viable as it could be because Magneton cannot carve out a significant niche from Magnezone.

TL:DR : Match-up based analysis lacks context of the niche that pokemon create in the greater metagame. Magneton doesn't carve out a significant niche over Magnezone which impacts its viability and usage and should be ranked lower than B+ to reflect this.

 

[AllFourtyOne]

Toxicroak UR -> UT/D/C-

Toxicroak @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 112 Def / 252 SpA / 20 SpD / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Electric] / Nasty Plot
- Vacuum Wave

Toxicroak is a menace, it’s able to survive a +1 Mega Gyarados Waterfall and Outrage, Jolly Sawk EQ, be immune to Water-type moves, and OHKO Kartana with Priority. It boosts well with Plot, and it’s generally pretty solid. Fits well into the lower tiers of 1v1 filling the role of a special fighting type that beats primafini