Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Who are your favorite candidates?

  • Kamala Harris

    Votes: 43 8.0%
  • Elizabeth Warren

    Votes: 99 18.4%
  • Julián Castro

    Votes: 16 3.0%
  • Pete Buttigieg

    Votes: 51 9.5%
  • Kirsten Gillibrand

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • John Delaney

    Votes: 9 1.7%
  • Tulsi Gabbard

    Votes: 63 11.7%
  • Bernie Sanders

    Votes: 338 62.9%
  • Amy Klobuchar

    Votes: 12 2.2%
  • Joe Biden

    Votes: 45 8.4%
  • Andrew Yang

    Votes: 112 20.9%
  • Cory Booker

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • Marianne Williamson

    Votes: 19 3.5%
  • Mike Bloomberg

    Votes: 12 2.2%

  • Total voters
    537

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Kingler12345 assuming Biden would veto Medicare for all of it reached his desk (not convinced given the seismic shift in political framing it would take for this to get past the house and senate), a 7-2 conservative Supreme Court where the 3 new conservatives (one replacing Clarence Thomas) are very young, would put it off the table until at least 2050. Unlike Biden himself who would only be able to prevent it 2024 or 2028 at most. Also see a lot of implications that Biden won’t pick liberal justices bc the Thomas vote, but his fist pick would obviously be Gorsuch (liberal enough) and then literally any judge not in the federalist society won’t partake in conservative activism while sitting on the bench. The one thing democratic presidents have done consistently well is pick justices that do not rule like conservative law makers. The one thing Trump has done “well” (for conservatives) is stack the judicial branch at all levels with conservative political hacks. There are over 800 bills sitting on McConnell’s desk, over 700 of which passed the house with bipartisan support, which he (and other senate republicans are just as responsible for) has neglected to bring to the floor to shove over 200 conservative political hacks into the judiciary branch. I’m not sure the judiciary branch is even functional now, but it definitely won’t be if there’s 4 more years of Trump. This especially problematic because many of the recent progressive victories have come through the Supreme Court, and some of the things that need to be rectified can be far more easily accomplished with a judicial branch not filled with conservative hacks.

Anyways regardless if you vote for Biden or not, you all should really vote for the more progressive candidate in the senate, house and your own local races. 2020 is a redistributing year and in many states their legislature draws the map. Voting so that progressives actually get fair representation in those maps will be very important to getting any progressive goal accomplished long term. Many of the more recent progressive victories have also come on the state level (legalization of marijuana, increasing voting access, independent redistricting, expanding Medicare access, etc.) in Blue states as opposed to red states which have... banned abortion 17 times? Also important to keep the house Blue and flip the senate if you think Trump is going to win to limit his ability to do the fascism and wreck the judicial branch. So even if you think Biden is hot garb (probs true) and the equivalent of trump (obviously false), at least vote for the other races on the ballot. Otherwise you really are shooting yourself in the foot.
 
That's not a true statement without putting context to it. The Democrats lost three straight elections prior to Clinton, who only won by his first term by a plurality vote thanks to Ross Perot. At some point progressives have to reconcile with Clinton being the best option in that political climate.
ok your responses have pretty much convinced me you didn't really read anything the various people that have responded to you have said (you literally are not engaging with anything). i'll leave you with this:
john kerry voted for the iraq war and lost. some guy in 2008 (i think his name is barack?) won the primary in good part because of his vote against it. clinton voted for the iraq war and lost. biden... was the leader of the senate during the iraq war vote, and was instrumental in getting it passed...

atomicllamas i don't have the original source i read it from but: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/bid...-coronavirus-focuses-attention-on-health.html i think he's already committed to it (it looks like he dodged the question, but I think the headline is a pretty fair takeaway considering he was asked about m4a point blank). considering biden needs wall street and the insurance companies on his side (and it looks like we're seeing a LOT of them from certain leaks about a potential cabinet), who probably want to make money off people with private plans and who wouldn't be able to function in a Sanders administration, I see no reason why not to believe him.

also m4a is still popular with a majority of the democratic electorate polled (even the biden voters want it, they're just being fed that biden is more electable and they want trump out), so I think with the combination of public pressure and a sympathetic administration a lot gets done (new deal kinda thing); getting Sanders in wouldn't be the be all end all of the movement, probably just a start for more organized labor to be able to gain back its negotiating power instead of lobbyists and corporations.

My point on Thomas was probably misleading; my implication wasn't that Biden would nominate a conservative judge, just that his history of compromise shows that there's really no reason McConnell won't be able to block him like he did Garland. Like Obama, but probably even more centrist in that regard and with far less political chops, I don't see why Biden wouldn't compromise heavily on everything progressives care about to make it seem like he's "getting stuff done." I think without an energized progressive base (which definitely isn't happening with a joe biden ticket) taking back the senate isn't likely still; the senate point is mostly my own speculation though. The point was that it shows that his principles are pretty easily bent in the face of having to compromise, and for anyone seriously considering progress on the various fronts Bernie has moved the conversation towards (m4a, minimum wage increase, increased labor union negotiating power etc), it's going to be a gut punch.
 

BIG ASHLEY

ashley
is a Community Contributor
the whole "vote for biden because he's less evil than trump" thing reeks of tactical voting, an inherently undemocratic concept.

that said, as repulsive as it is, it seems to be the only option.

glad i don't live in the us.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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I assure you that multi party parliamentary systems are not any better than our two party system. See: just about any country with one.

ranked choice voting is a good thing but still doesn’t actually change the two party system
 
I assure you that multi party parliamentary systems are not any better than our two party system. See: just about any country with one.

ranked choice voting is a good thing but still doesn’t actually change the two party system
Of course, it wouldn’t be perfect. But ranked choice voting would open up the viablity of third parties and permit a more accurate political reading of the will of the voting public. In any other country in the world there’s no way Biden and Sanders would be shoehorned into the same political party.

—————————-

As a side note, anyone saying the Trump administration has done well handling the COVID-19 virus is hilariously misinformed.

Our government has had weeks to prepare and get testing available to the public, but tests are still for the most part completely unavailable.

Trump himself has spread misinformation about the virus, claiming everything from it being a hoax from Democrats to hurt his re-election chances (odd, declaring a national emergency for a hoax), to claiming warm weather will eleminate the virus’ spread (hasn’t stopped it from spreading in Australia), to undermining the mortality rate by calling it the flu (its 10x more lethal than the flu, stop repeating this, bro) to claiming a flu vaccine would cure it (they’re completely different viruses).

Even Trump’s lack of basic lack of standard precautions like social distancing and shaking hands on television shows his ineptitude here. The admin just FINALLY stated he got tested for COVID-19 today, despite several colleagues he’s had physical contact with having tested positive for over the last week.

Did I even mention how the Trump admin was trying to cut food stamps for poor people during this crisis? Thank goodness a federal judge blocked that.

In any case, all these blunders result in constant mixed messages to the public which will translate into more infections and more deaths.

The Republicans in Congress aren’t fairing much better, stifling relief packages the House has passed for working class people. The bill would guarantee free testing and two weeks paid sick leave for all Americans, But as per usual, McConnell is dragging ass on getting it through the Senate, if at all.

But at least the bankers have a $1.5 trillion loan from the Fed to see them through these troubled times. Suck it, poors.

Circling back to Bernie’s platform, can we pretty please get M4A? It would really hit the spot right about now, America.
 
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termi

bike is short for bichael
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blatant election fraud happening in arizona. apparently the county this is taking place in has a history of closing polling stations in places with a lot of poor poc. there's absolutely no defensible reason as to why one would close more polling stations in response to coronavirus, since it only makes the polling stations that stay open more crowded and therefore bigger sources of potential infection. again, this election has nothing to do with democracy, don't allow yourself to believe for one moment that this system is here to serve you
 
ok your responses have pretty much convinced me you didn't really read anything the various people that have responded to you have said (you literally are not engaging with anything). i'll leave you with this:
john kerry voted for the iraq war and lost. some guy in 2008 (i think his name is barack?) won the primary in good part because of his vote against it. clinton voted for the iraq war and lost. biden... was the leader of the senate during the iraq war vote, and was instrumental in getting it passed...
No. My responses have engaged with everything put forth. Sanders supremacists are still typcasting Joe Biden as the enemy. The rest is just rationalizations. Sanders' base is not large enough to win a Democratic primary. This is a fact that no longer warrants discussion.

Since we insist on playing pundit:
-John Kerry faced a popular incumbent (George W. Bush had 50%+ approval on election day)
-Barack Obama faced an unpopular incumbent party (George W. Bush's approval in 2008 was about 25%)
-Hillary Clinton was the unpopular incumbent
-Donald Trump is an unpopular incumbent

Notice a trend?


blatant election fraud happening in arizona. apparently the county this is taking place in has a history of closing polling stations in places with a lot of poor poc. there's absolutely no defensible reason as to why one would close more polling stations in response to coronavirus, since it only makes the polling stations that stay open more crowded and therefore bigger sources of potential infection. again, this election has nothing to do with democracy, don't allow yourself to believe for one moment that this system is here to serve you
This is all the more reason we need to support Joe Biden and all Democratic candidates down the ballot in November. H.R.1., which addresses election security, is currently sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk.
 
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so you looked over my entire point on obama having to face a primary. you know he was behind clinton more than sanders is behind biden after super tuesday right? but i guess facts don't matter when they don't suit your narrative.
Yet another example of revisionist history and ignoring context. Obama had a winning coalition that included African-American voters. Bernie Sanders does not. He has no path to victory. We have two election cycles of results.

hillary clinton was not an incumbent, i have no idea what you're trying to say there; she didn't become president. have you not seen trump's approval rating lol? it's rock solid among republicans and fluctuates maybe a little among independents. the 45-49% it's stayed at (i think right after impeachment it shot up to 50) is very solid for what he's trying to do for re-election, i.e win the electoral college in swing states by slim margins (he'll very likely lose the popular vote again but it won't matter).
Hillary Clinton was the incumbent in 2016. She was a Democrat running after a two term Democratic President in which she served in the administration. But yet again you deliberately revert back to right-wing talking points.

Trump's approval rating clearly suggests a massive electoral romp both from himself and his fellow Republicans in Congress.

i notice the trend of the candidate being able to hit the other candidate on their terrible iraq war vote winning, yeah.
The Iraq War had nothing to do with 2016 and will have nothing to do with 2020.

i'd recommend you try to engage at least some substantive facts instead of trying to out-pundit me or whoever else you're responding to in this thread. i'm very fine discussing the substantive issues of the campaign but it seems you don't care about that at all, since your entire argument is predicated on this seeming "ceiling" Sanders has (completely ignoring the fact that he's bringing new voters in). maybe engage the point about NAFTA surgo brought up in the last page.
The "facts" regarding Iraq War are irrelevant to this thread. The relevant facts for 2020 election cycle are as follows:

-Bernie Sanders has a ceiling of 35% of Democratic Primary voters. This is actually lower than 2016, because he was able to capture anti-Clinton votes.

-Bernie Sanders has been arguing for four years that he's bringing in new voters, yet he is still getting blown out.

-Donald Trump is the most unpopular incumbent running for re-election (more unpopular than Carter & Bush Sr.). Unpopular incumbents lose. Popular incumbents win. This is true of both the candidate and the party.

So please, stop repeating the same right-wing talking points over and over again. It's been debunked. The proof is in the results. More importantly, stop arguing that it's okay for people to sit the 2020 election out. Those who want any kind of progress on voting rights, climate, and health care must vote for Joe Biden and the Democrats down the ticket.
 
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TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
"he was able to capture anti-clinton votes" is just as much a meaningless truism as if I said: "Actually there's a record turnout this year and Bernie IS bringing new voters, however there's also a mobilized anti-bernie voting bloc."

You can create narratives that explain why the results are the way they are but that doesn't necessarily make it true just because the narrative is neat.

For example: it's a very neat narrative to frame the democratic part as advocates for voting rights, climate policy, AND health care and that the only opposition to those things is the republican party. But in reality Biden himself has already said he'd veto a medicare for all bill, and ever since Bill Clinton campaigned as the "tough on crime" president, the Democratic party has single handedly allowed the republicans to push the overton window further and further and further right.

In the grand scheme of things Bernie is slightly left of center. He's not overly radical in any significant way. But he's seen as an extremist in this country of near blatantly open Fascists. Voting for Bernie, organizing for Bernie, giving a platform for the basic foundations of leftist thought on a national scale is the only thing that can course correct. Honestly it doesn't have to be Bernie, AOC and Katie Porter come to mind as being great fighters for the working class as well, but only AOC has the kind of national coverage that is necessary. But voting for Biden, and unquestioningly voting for all the Democratic Party standards keeps us on the path of creating a more and more radical right wing.

Recently I saw a facebook post analogy that struck a chord with me... about how 'voting is like using a public transport... just because the bus doesn't take you exactly where you want to go doesn't mean you just don't go anywhere, you have to take the bus that gets you closest to where you're going'. But in this case, both Biden and Trump take us further away from where we should be. Better to stay where we are, and move where we need to be on foot, than try and join in and intentionally move away from where we want to go.
 

Surgo

goes to eleven
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What will happen next is that all the people telling you we can't pursue a progressive agenda because We Must Unite To Defeat Trump will seamlessly pivot to telling you we can't pursue a progressive agenda because doing so would Risk Our Majorities.

That's assuming that Biden even wins at all. I'm going to put a radical claim here that Trump will beat him.
 
People are just addicted to outrage. Biden is a bad canidate. Sometimes you have to vote for bad candidates when the good ones lose the primaries.

But there's no reason to shame them or anything, when Trump beats Biden most BernieorBust people will suffer with you for the new few decades, so you win even when you lose.
 
If their worldview is such that it doesn't matter whether Trump or Biden is president - two canidates obviously not remotely the same, then it sounds like a silver lining to me.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
Look, I'm a huge fan of Bernie and I believe this country needs a political revolution. But if you believe nothing would fundamentally change between Trump and Biden you are wrong. Biden's policies on climate change are nowhere near enough but Trump doesn't believe in climate change. Biden only wants to incrementally improve healthcare but Trump and the Republicans want to cut it.

Besides, whatever the flaws of his past positions, Biden has also showed that the current progressive movement has made major influence on him. See this:

"Bernie has put forward a plan that would make public colleges and universities free for families whose income is below $125,000. It's a good idea, and after consideration, I am proud to add it to my platform," Biden tweeted Sunday. https://abc13.com/an-unexpected-shift-of-events-biden-endorses-warrens-bankruptcy-plan/6015508/

Can you imagine Trump saying that?
 

Surgo

goes to eleven
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I never said nothing would fundamentally change between Trump or Biden.

What I am saying is that if you're living right now under the crushing weight of medical debt, student loan debt, or both, nothing for you will. Biden has already committed to vetoing M4A. I mean, he came right out and said that. And he depends on contributions from insurance companies.

And that's a problem. Because these are the sorts of voters that Democrats depend on to actually come out and vote for them, not stay home.
 
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"he was able to capture anti-clinton votes" is just as much a meaningless truism as if I said: "Actually there's a record turnout this year and Bernie IS bringing new voters, however there's also a mobilized anti-bernie voting bloc."

You can create narratives that explain why the results are the way they are but that doesn't necessarily make it true just because the narrative is neat.
Fine. Explain to us why Bernie did worse this cycle than last.

For example: it's a very neat narrative to frame the democratic part as advocates for voting rights, climate policy, AND health care and that the only opposition to those things is the republican party. But in reality Biden himself has already said he'd veto a medicare for all bill, and ever since Bill Clinton campaigned as the "tough on crime" president, the Democratic party has single handedly allowed the republicans to push the overton window further and further and further right.

In the grand scheme of things Bernie is slightly left of center. He's not overly radical in any significant way. But he's seen as an extremist in this country of near blatantly open Fascists. Voting for Bernie, organizing for Bernie, giving a platform for the basic foundations of leftist thought on a national scale is the only thing that can course correct. Honestly it doesn't have to be Bernie, AOC and Katie Porter come to mind as being great fighters for the working class as well, but only AOC has the kind of national coverage that is necessary. But voting for Biden, and unquestioningly voting for all the Democratic Party standards keeps us on the path of creating a more and more radical right wing.

Recently I saw a facebook post analogy that struck a chord with me... about how 'voting is like using a public transport... just because the bus doesn't take you exactly where you want to go doesn't mean you just don't go anywhere, you have to take the bus that gets you closest to where you're going'. But in this case, both Biden and Trump take us further away from where we should be. Better to stay where we are, and move where we need to be on foot, than try and join in and intentionally move away from where we want to go.
When ever has the Democratic Party advocated to more than double the minimum wage? Or sweeping election reforms?

The Democratic Party has actually moved significantly to the left from where Bill Clinton was.

And yet again you still are throwing out right wing talking points that Biden and Trump are the same. One of the two will be President whether they are “ideal” or not.
 
That's assuming that Biden even wins at all. I'm going to put a radical claim here that Trump will beat him.
careful, predicting trump to smash biden is a right wing talking point according to the neoliberals
But there's no reason to shame them or anything, when Trump beats Biden most BernieorBust people will suffer with you for the new few decades, so you win even when you lose.
Still pushing right wing talking points. The generic ballot and Trump’s awful approval ratings show he is the clear underdog this election.

What if I told you those Bernie-or-Bust people are already suffering under the weight of crippling debt (student, medical) and see no difference in their situation based on whether Trump or Biden is president?
There’s no difference between Biden and Trump? Do you accept climate change? Do you believe in civil rights? Do you think H.R.1 should be a reality?
 
Do you even read my posts, or do you just ignore what people say and go and post whatever you want anyway? Because look up, literally two posts above your own.
We see Bernie or Bust sympathizing, rooting for Trump, and a constant refusal to acknowledge the current anti-Trump political climate. Unless there is something else I’m missing?
 
In all honesty, Bernie should just drop out now and pressure Biden to adopt some more left-wing policy for his endorsement. He has no path to the nomination, he needed Biden to break down last night and that did not happen. Him staying is doing nothing but fracturing the party further and there isn't really a choice other than picking the (much) lesser of two evils.
 
We see Bernie or Bust sympathizing, rooting for Trump, and a constant refusal to acknowledge the current anti-Trump political climate. Unless there is something else I’m missing?
this is what you're missing:

Do you think the guy who lied through his teeth at least 5 times last night has a shot of beating a popular incumbent within his own party? I don’t.

And don’t take it from me, take it from Biden’s favorite site, PolitiFact: he misled or straight up lied to people about multiple things: 1 2 3 (<- this one's for when biden tried to throw in "uhh what about Russia Bernie?" last night)

i just came across this wonderful video on twitter I'd recommend watching too RaikouLover

again, please actually respond to why you think despite all of this baggage that people are going to find out regardless of whether or not CNN or MSNBC does their journalistic duty, people should vote for this guy (keep in mind it's their vote, you have to actually fucking earn it). the vote blue no matter who folks have their reasons, but i feel like you're being incredibly misleading on their behalf
 
Still pushing right wing talking points. The generic ballot and Trump’s awful approval ratings show he is the clear underdog this election.

There’s no difference between Biden and Trump? Do you accept climate change? Do you believe in civil rights? Do you think H.R.1 should be a reality?
There are huge differences between Biden and Trump. The point here is that, among a decent amount of voting population, nothing will actualy change for their own lives sans medicare for all and thus they have no incentitive to vote. Not necessarily wrong, I certainly do not sympathize with these people though, which is the point.
 

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