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32 turns of stall in the Hail: Walrein
- Thread starter Dragontamer
- Start date
Just out of curiosity, what do you do about Rapid Spin/Gyro Ball Foretress? Doing damage calcs for Gyro Ball is a pain, but I'm guess with her high speed and type weakness he destroys her.
Thanks to the multitude of hail teams now on shoddy my rain dance team with kabutops is getting ton's of wins. Also i have tried to take on this walrien and failed many times. So i made one and it has quite good success (lowered by the fact i get impatient) otherwise this a very good set.
To be honest, if you were using Froslass purely for anti-spin, you'd be better off with Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and HP Fire. Shadow Ball hits Starmie hard, Ice Beam does in Claydol and Donphan, HP Fire could finish Forry. Cloyster already has crappy SD, and Torkoal lays waste to Froslass either way.
I have already mention the possibility of using Charm on this set, as you can capture a Spheal with Charm in XD, in place of one of the moves. However, by adding charm, you have to take away one of the moves that make this set work. With Charm , it will force your opponent to switch out if they are using a Physical Sweeper and makes setting up Substitute easier in most cases.
Needs more counters:chaos:
Well... if you think about it, the way you counter this is to simply prevent it. There is a good amount of set-up time involved here.
You need to think of it in terms of contering the team, not just Walrien. For example, if you had a sturdy Starmie with Rapid Spin and Recover, it can come in and force a switch to Froslass, which you then attempt to KO. If you can get Froslass down, then there's nothing much stopping you from just switching for 32 turns until Walrien's PP runs out. Even if you can't KO Froslass, using the above Starmie to force switches, then switching in a Blissey or other special wall works as well. Just keep switching with those Natural Cure pokemon, because they can easily take the Surfs Walrien will dish out. Especially if Starmie has Recover, you can just outstall Wally.
I imagine it's almost insta-loose if they switch in Belly-Zard before Wallrein is setup.
Belly-Zard comes in. 6.25% damage.
Subsitute. 25% damage. Another 6.25% from the hail.
Belly Drum. 50% damage. 6.25% from the hail.
Protect from Walrein. 6.25% damage from the hail. Charizard faints.
Thats not so hard >_> Not to mention, Walrein can roar the efforts away. If Walrein gets a subitute up, BellyZard also dies a miserable death to the hail.
I've been doing an offshoot of this strategy where I have Vaporeon Baton Pass Aqua Ring to Aerodactyl and Dusknoir. 32 turns of stall is awesome, but a bargain at twice the price if they eat away 64 PP. Aero also benefits from Sandstorm immunity and an SD boost in Sandstorm.
The sets are:
Aero:
Sub
Protect
Whirlwind
Rock Slide
Dusknoir:
Sub
Protect
Taunt
Focus Punch
Basically you use the same Calculus as Walrein, only Dusknoir uses Taunt to prevent Phazers. Aero is of course the fastest Phazer in existence, although I'm wondering if I should use Taunt on it instead.
The sets are:
Aero:
Sub
Protect
Whirlwind
Rock Slide
Dusknoir:
Sub
Protect
Taunt
Focus Punch
Basically you use the same Calculus as Walrein, only Dusknoir uses Taunt to prevent Phazers. Aero is of course the fastest Phazer in existence, although I'm wondering if I should use Taunt on it instead.
Taunt Gyarados looks like it eats most of these sets alive... at least in theory. Although, if you instead baton pass ingrain to Dusknoir he can run 2 attacks that most likely will do more.
Aero has the advantage of a sandstorm. Sub/Protect/Whirlwind Crobat has significantly better defenses and can practically do the same thing as Aero outside a hailstorm... and also has access to some interesting attacks. (Hypnosis, taunt, roost)
I doubt any of these guys have the raw staying power of Walrein that you can back on when the strategy fails though...
Aero has the advantage of a sandstorm. Sub/Protect/Whirlwind Crobat has significantly better defenses and can practically do the same thing as Aero outside a hailstorm... and also has access to some interesting attacks. (Hypnosis, taunt, roost)
I doubt any of these guys have the raw staying power of Walrein that you can back on when the strategy fails though...
Taunt Gyara makes Dusknoir edgy, but even if it did Intimidate either Vap or Aero I doubt Gyara wants to roll the dice with a Rock Sliding Aerodactyl, especially considering Bulky is still slower than it after it DD's. If I get my Sub up before Taunt, I can block its Taunt with the Sub and WW it out. Hopefully I have rocks up and its next switchin won't be free.
PressureDactyl is a PP eating menace, and Dusknoir is immune to the most common fixed damage move in the game, Seismic Toss (and blocks rapid spin). The rest of my team is Hippowdon(SR, physical wall, Sandstream) and Forretress (Toxic Spikes and regular Spikes), and I lead with Mamoswine (immune to SS, and a bloody lethal starter and endgame sweeper). Generally I use Dusknoir before Hippowdon and Aero afterward, but with AR BP'd even if it can't stall endlessly Dusknoir is still a pain to take out. I remember Taunting a Blissey, Subbing, and then owning the Weavile that switched in with Focus Punch.
Besides, Walrein and Abomasnow have a lot of common weaknesses, whereas BPing Aqua Ring allows more type diversity. The other Pressure users with Taunt are Absol, who fares even worse than Aero, Spiritomb, who doesn't have a decent damage dealing option, and Weavile (who could concievably work). Although each of them has an immunity, they either have a cavalcade of weaknesses or their stats are poor. Aerodactyl's defenses may be middling, but it outspeeds everything and other fast sweepers don't want to get near it.
Articuno helps me in Hail, but I'd have to replace Hippowdon with Abomasnow. Mamoswine doesn't care either way, although it does like Snow Cloak better.
Taunt goes through substitutes now. So that strategy won't exactly work.
But I do see your points with Dusknoir. Needless to say, it seems interesting and I would like to see it in action before judging it further.
Yeah that's what I was thinking, which is why I think stalling Aero needs Taunt. It is among the fastest users in the game after all, so it's not like it's wasted on it. Taunt also helps PressureDactyl do what it is best at, which is PP stalling attacks. Roost is Aero's best friend here as it can comfortably stall BoltBeam with that high speed and the Sandstorm boost. It can even stall out Stone Edge with some Defense investment, as only four maximum can be used against it.
Weather changers are also a pain, but Taunt shuts down Rain Dance/Sunny Day immediately, whilst Abomasnow can easily be killed by any STAB move, unlike Walrein who struggles to hurt DDTar significantly even with Surf.
Whoops, my bad. I thought it was all moves for some reason. Will edit that out now, thanks.
Oh, and the rouble with Ingrain passing is the only thing that can do it is Smeargle, and you can't switch out of Ingrain. Cradily can't be Phazed due to its ability but it also can't prevent statups, unless Flash abuse is your thing. Cradily can also set up its own rocks but is otherwise ill-suited to stalling since it can't do anything to statups or Subpunchers.
All of the Legends have Roar, and Suicune can set up 101HP Subs. Suicune might work, just modify it so that it has Sub/Protect/Surf/Roar. You won't be able to do much to Water Absorbers but that's always been the case with Suicune.
Bastiodon has Taunt, Roar, and Sandstorm immunity but it can't attack worth anything. Glalie can do the same thing as Walrein and Taunt instead of Roar, but it doesn't have an immunity or even good resistances and its defenses are bad. Thats one of the reasons I liked Aero, because despite its weaknes to Boltbeam it also resists Normal, Bug, and Flying.
Really, there's a load of things that can get either Taunt or Roar to complement the set, but Aero gets a commendation for having Pressure AND Sandstorm immunity, whereas Dusknoir has Pressure, 2 immunities and enough attack to put up a decent fight. Most of its counters (STAB Pursuit) this gen really hate getting blasted by Focus Punch.
This strategy requires a lot of setup anyway, so I can't see how using the fairly sturdy Vaporeon to BP an Aqua Ring is worse than having a team full of Ice types so Snow Warning doesn't slash you like the double-edged sword that it is.
One thing that might be worth going into is AR passed to Tyranitar with Sub/Protect/Roar/Rock Slide. It covers a lot of bases, has 101 HP Subs, and sets up Sandstorm all by its lonesome.
Either way, I think AR or Ingrain-passing is a way to make this much more viable. Trouble is of course, the only AR passers are Vappy and Huntail/Gorebyss and the only Ingrain passer is Smeargle.
All of the Legends have Roar, and Suicune can set up 101HP Subs. Suicune might work, just modify it so that it has Sub/Protect/Surf/Roar. You won't be able to do much to Water Absorbers but that's always been the case with Suicune.
Bastiodon has Taunt, Roar, and Sandstorm immunity but it can't attack worth anything. Glalie can do the same thing as Walrein and Taunt instead of Roar, but it doesn't have an immunity or even good resistances and its defenses are bad. Thats one of the reasons I liked Aero, because despite its weaknes to Boltbeam it also resists Normal, Bug, and Flying.
Really, there's a load of things that can get either Taunt or Roar to complement the set, but Aero gets a commendation for having Pressure AND Sandstorm immunity, whereas Dusknoir has Pressure, 2 immunities and enough attack to put up a decent fight. Most of its counters (STAB Pursuit) this gen really hate getting blasted by Focus Punch.
This strategy requires a lot of setup anyway, so I can't see how using the fairly sturdy Vaporeon to BP an Aqua Ring is worse than having a team full of Ice types so Snow Warning doesn't slash you like the double-edged sword that it is.
One thing that might be worth going into is AR passed to Tyranitar with Sub/Protect/Roar/Rock Slide. It covers a lot of bases, has 101 HP Subs, and sets up Sandstorm all by its lonesome.
Either way, I think AR or Ingrain-passing is a way to make this much more viable. Trouble is of course, the only AR passers are Vappy and Huntail/Gorebyss and the only Ingrain passer is Smeargle.
Oh, and vis-a-vis the effectiveness of Aerodactyl and Dusknoir, myself and fine user Dischord just had a battle that he would describe as "The gayest battle ever" on account of my Pressure-Stalling whores. The whole battle was so long that my Word file is 27 and 1/3rd pages long.
He described my Aerodactyl as "homosexual." I can only imagine his frustration increased when, after stalling out his Cresselia's Charge Beam and Ice Beam PP, he proceeded to Rest, only to be Taunted the next turn. Thanks to some gratuitous Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and SR laying via Forry and Hippowdon, my gay Aero then proceeded to finish off his weakened team. By Taunting away their recovery moves and then stalling out until Death by Toxic (with some finishing off by Rock Slide).
Other points that could be described as gay were my Aqua Ring passed Dusknoir annoying the hell out of his Zapdos.
Battle Quotes:
Congratulations Dragontamer, you're idea has springboarded into the most stally, annoying team ever.
He described my Aerodactyl as "homosexual." I can only imagine his frustration increased when, after stalling out his Cresselia's Charge Beam and Ice Beam PP, he proceeded to Rest, only to be Taunted the next turn. Thanks to some gratuitous Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and SR laying via Forry and Hippowdon, my gay Aero then proceeded to finish off his weakened team. By Taunting away their recovery moves and then stalling out until Death by Toxic (with some finishing off by Rock Slide).
Other points that could be described as gay were my Aqua Ring passed Dusknoir annoying the hell out of his Zapdos.
Battle Quotes:
Congratulations Dragontamer, you're idea has springboarded into the most stally, annoying team ever.
Now thats just jacked up >_>
At least Sandstorm was running in the background, right?
Thanks. Now I get to play a lot more annoying hail teams on Shoddy. :(
