A Change in UT

[kd24]

Think of this as a plea and a "warning" (not a bad warning, but a "this will happen soon" warning).

This is Smogon. We are supposed to represent the elite of competitive Pokemon with thoughtful competitive discussion and theory. But with a new generation, it's inevitable that excitement and Smogon becoming more popular through social media and advertisement has resulted in new users coming here to discuss their favorite Pokemon. That's perfectly fine, but on our IRC channels and through other posters, I've heard nothing but "This forum/thread/etc is garbage". Okay, but how do you fix it? With a new generation's excitement, people lose sight of "discussion" and proceed to give one-liners that barely tiptoe the line of "content".

There's no reason why our standards should be so low. With pretty much every thread created at this point until an actual metagame and ladder for the current meta is established, we can focus on improving these threads by actually posing discussion points. I don't want to "supposedly represent" or "try to represent elite discussion", we WILL be the elite discussion.

So as a warning like I said, don't be surprised if your posts are deleted even if they provide what you thought was content, we should be looking for discussion about what it counters and why, why a particular set is best, what the actual metagame impact of moves/abilities/items/Pokemon will be, and the theory of Pokemon (why ___ is better than ___, speculation into the future of OU based on current results/mons, etc). The item clause thread is an eye-opening exercise in what constitutes posting without content or justification. I won't call anyone out there, but posting isn't a racing contest. Think about your posts and hopefully cleaning up these threads will inspire people to not get lazy with their posting content.

This doesn't mean you need to give lengthy explanations, but you need to provide actual discussion that furthers and builds upon the discussion already. We know Pokemon "A" will be awesome because of ____, but why? Again look at what I bolded of what a post should explore with legitimate points. Let's not settle for mediocrity.

List of threads cleaned up important reading:

Aegislash
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3489876/page-7#post-4915259
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3489876/page-8#post-4916629

Furfrou
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/furfrou.3490265/#post-4920959

Scolipede
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scolipede.3490157/#post-4920777

Togekiss
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/togekiss.3489948/#post-4916799

 

[amplafied]

"New Users"

Okay.

 

[kd24]

I actually deleted your post but then changed my mind because it's better to speak in the open. People have been complaining about the quality of our forum before your item clause thread, and new users was a mild way of putting "some of our users have no clue what they're talking about" (and some new users are legitimately smart new users, while some new users are just excited and need a push in the right direction, so don't take offense to this if that's you) but if you want me to be more blunt, yes even older users have no idea what they're talking about in discussions as well. If you think policy changes revolve around a post you made, then sorry, I was planning on this thread before I even saw the item clause thread, but maybe you'll be happy to know that I was certainly more motivated to do this tonight instead of the weekend like I was planning when I had seen your posts and other posts in that thread.

 

[Psylink]

I'm not surprised. I've noticed tons of users with 20 or less posts that joined after October started. It shall pass soon. I mean no offense to these new users, however.

 

[amplafied]

I clearly stated that if I did something wrong in the thread to just delete it, but please don't judge the thread by my opening comments alone. Other users with much more knowledge than me made some great points and it's unfair to claim the entire thread was full of stupid comments just because of my "bad opinion." If someone thinks a rule makes the game a more enjoyable and strategic experience, it is an opinion. They can back that opinion up with evidence of course, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still an opinion.

I wasn't trying to force the item clause on everyone, I just wanted to see what the general opinion of it was. It seems the results were very mixed, which lead to discussion. It seems that because the posts disagreed with the majority, they are treated as being having "no content."

EDIT: We have wasted enough time with this. It is over.

 

[Iura]

I may look new, but I lurked

 

[Wingless [old]]

Well i joined earlier today to share my defog Latios set in the defog thread,i believe it was pretty insightful.

I've been playing the meta since 4th gen D/P/Pt and have lurked for awhile but only recently joined because i'm excited about 6th gen meta (which IMO doesn't start until the pokebank thing or w/e opens in December)

Anyway I don't think the item clause thread was detrimental to smogons rep inherently as it did bring a staple of the meta game (items) into a discussion format for people to chime in on.Ideas get brought to the table,good ideas breed and spread,less popular ideas don't receive as much support,but atleast it brought up a subject which at its core had meat on its bones.

 

[kd24]

I clearly stated that if I did something wrong in the thread to just delete it, but please don't judge the thread by my opening comments alone. Other users with much more knowledge than me made some great points and it's unfair to claim the entire thread was full of stupid comments just because of my "bad opinion." If someone thinks a rule makes the game a more enjoyable and strategic experience, it is an opinion. They can back that opinion up with evidence of course, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still an opinion.

I wasn't trying to force the item clause on everyone, I just wanted to see what the general opinion of it was. It seems the results were very mixed, which lead to discussion. It seems that because the posts disagreed with the majority, they are treated as being having "no content."

EDIT: We have wasted enough time with this. It is over.

i'm fine with dropping this but i want to clear up a few misconceptions

1.) we don't want to clean up threads for people who do things wrong, we want them to understand why it's "wrong". in fact, i didn't think there was anything you did wrong per say, but i don't think you understood the point of justification. there is a reason that thread remained open for so long, because we hoped reasoned logic from either side would come into play, but it didn't. so when i make a post asking you questions to your OP (which is what i did) and you answer them completely off base from what our philosophy is as smogon, then i felt like this thread and idea had to happen now. we're not working in the world of opinions, we're trying to put logic behind our reasoning and thoughts.

2.) the thread was full of "stupid" comments that were entirely off-base with either the discussion at hand or didn't present anything with them. this wasn't just you or directed at you.

3.) there's no harm in finding the general opinion of something if you have a strong base and reasoning for doing so. but this thread was the definition of "i would prefer it this way, would you?" and it led to bare content from BOTH sides, not just you and those in the minority.

atm, i'm cleaning up aegislash and posing questions to people as i read through posts in the thread...so be on the lookout for a response from me asking questions to users who i felt didn't have content appropriate for what we're trying to promote here in smogon. you don't have to respond if i try to ask for you to explain something you said obviously, but it's to push you into the mode of thinking that might help you long-term in understand why something might be bad, or why you might have a great idea that even im completely missing but your lack of explanation didn't lead it anywhere

 

[Reapehify]

Ironic that I'm not forum active until exactly two year later. Anyway, I understand the level of elitism Smogon stands to represent consistently, it's clear from talk of banning moves from competitive play and ranking Pokemon accordingly. Then, if Smogon is the representation of elite competitive Pokemon, would it not make sense to steer newcomers who are energetic to contribute in a positive manner? I have lurked for the past four years but like the influx of noobs coming in with the addition of X/Y I am new to the competitive scene. I'm not sure how your 1/1 mentor programs are managing right now but in the midst of such a surge of interest might it be a good idea to hold another/more mentor rounds to foster a new batch of brilliant minds? Just a thought.

 

[cpmd4]

I'm not surprised. I've noticed tons of users with 20 or less posts that joined after October started. It shall pass soon. I mean no offense to these new users, however.

I've lurked at Smogon and played battle sims for years. In fact, I only joined because I thought I'd post some of my breeding findings (X/Y is the first Pokemon game I bought on release) and because of a want to get codes for Friend Safari. I am sure there are many members like me.

 

[pectus_Umbra]

I joined to share my megabanette set and request help with damage calculations to see whether or not my reasoning/plotting for it is sound. If anyone wants to hop over and help with that, it's still on page 2, and would like comments about the set!

 

[Quiildrake]

Because of the new Online system and how easy it will be to battle anyone globally, Smogon is going to necessarily see an influx of new users, probably more than ever, and a lot of them will have no idea of the myriad of painstaking intricacies and formulas that have trickled down from the previous generations. I'm sure there will be a huge influx of players like myself that, because the combination of ease of competitive play on a global scale and the hype of a new gen, have finally come out of hiding and made a legitimate accounts. There will also probably be a huge influx of new users who have very little understanding of the competitive scene, the meta, and the work that goes into Smogon's high standard.

The face of competitive pokemon is changing, and with it it will become easier for less experienced/knowledgeable players to compete and improve. It will also probably cause there to be a lot of bad players that aren't ever going to want to listen to the 'elitist number-crunching math game' that Smogon kind of enforces. There's gonna be a big change, but there's also probably gonna be a lot of work to do, and that may just be how it will have to be.

 

[DTC]

You should give a few examples of the kinds of posts you're looking for so people know how to post here. I recall alexwolf and Treecko making pretty great posts across this forum if you're having issues coming up with good examples.

 

[Farpafraf]

Yes sir we'll do our best.

 

[Tash]

This is a very post good sir. I am truly a new user. I've lurked Smogon for about a year now? I've only recently joined because I wanted to become competitive at the start of a new gen to have a fresh start. I am still not comfortable to post my ideas/thoughts a lot because I feel like I still don't have a firm grasp on a lot of things. I hope to change this and become more active and truly an elite pokemon competitor. I hope to make a home here in Smogon. I shall continue to lurk on certain boards/threads until I can post with the content you speak of. Thank you for the "warning".

 

[SkaterTrainer]

For those posting that they lurked and such, you're just continuing to not really post any content. You don't have to say that you lurked, just make more intelligent posts that are full of content, don't apologize.

 

[Arcticblast]

For what it's worth, I didn't lurk at all before I joined, and it really hurt my ability to do anything on the forums. I eventually turned out all right (I think? I took a hiatus for a while), but on the flipside we have fantastic users who lurked a while before joining and they ended up becoming well-known and respected users in the community in around a year. There's potential for everyone here to go anywhere - you could be a user who posts a bunch of garbage and doesn't get anywhere ever, a user who slowly gets better, or even a stellar new user. If you've had one of your posts deleted, it's not the end of the world. Take a bit of a break. Look for some of the best posters. You don't need to type an essay on these Pokémon like some of them occasionally do. You should just be making an insightful, competitively relevant point when you're posting. Read through the thread before you post. Has someone said exactly what you were going to say? Threads full of the same information over and over again are a bore. Try posting something new, or perhaps even build off of their post with a new perspective.

I apologize if this seems jumbled, I stink at giving advice and I didn't get anything like this when I was new :(

EDIT: 3666 posts, I'll have to edit something interesting in later :O
EDIT2: wait I'm trying to be helpful here...

 

[Alopex]

The message of this thread is worth heeding (although the overtones of elitism don't really do Smogon any favors in securing it that reputation), but I'd just like to point out that content-less posting is a symptom of, well, contentlessness overall. X/Y aren't even a week old yet, and can't be hacked for data mining. The inflow of information is crawling along at a steady pace, but nowhere near fast enough to match people's enthusiasm. As a result, you will get posts of nothing more than speculation, because until the full breadth of the X/Y content is available in the public hands, there won't be enough content for people to post with. If you stifle speculative discussion in the time period when there's little else to discuss, you'll just discourage people away from the forums - which will mean information will come out even slower and we'll continue to be more and more dependent on Serebii for it.

So yes, content-filled posts, but make sure your definition of content is matching up with realistic goals of what's currently available and make it a bit clearer what it is you're looking for as such.

 

[Schpoonman]

XY is nearly two weeks old and the problem isn't having enough to talk about (there's plenty to talk about) it's people not knowing what they're talking about and refusing to do the reading to learn. Just this morning I had an argument with someone trying to defend a defensive spinblocking Greninja. He called special attacking Greninja a gimmick. The last 10 pages of the thread praised Greninja as changing what the word "coverage" meant and he, having just joined today, said that the players with years of experience across multiple metagames didn't know what they were talking about. You'll find far less baseless speculation and far more inexperienced players spewing word vomit over the forums which is what this topic is hoping to cull.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Honestly, unless you are a master lurker, you are still going to be terrible on smogon. I lurked smogon for years before posting, and yet my first post was about anti-anti-lead Donphan...

The only way you can get better at things like this, is to actually do them, like anything else in life.

 

[the voice of reason]

Maybe this is a call for some sort of "guideline to be a better community member" to be shown to new signees.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

You'd think 'please don't make shitty zero content posts' would be enough but

 

[FrostFire]

Honestly, unless you are a master lurker, you are still going to be terrible on smogon. I lurked smogon for years before posting, and yet my first post was about anti-anti-lead Donphan...

The only way you can get better at things like this, is to actually do them, like anything else in life.

Yes, and this is why (I think) kd was posing questions to people about their opinions in some posts, instead of outright deleting them. It's OK (I think?) to not know everything, but we should be making an effort to make quality posts. Also, people who do know what they're on about should be pushing newer users to explain the rationale for their opinions and stuff.

 

[tennisace]

If you are a new user reading this thread, and wish to learn how to make quality posts, or are looking for guidance on how to be a more involved member of the community, please come on #mentor on SynIRC and say hello. Everyone who has ops in the channel is an active mentor and will be willing to answer any questions you have or point you in the correct direction. If the channel is quiet, just highlight a few random ops who you think have cool names and they'll probably respond!

 

[Magicxgame]

K, so I'm going to say something that the regulars won't like, but it needs to be said.

A lot of these "crap" posts aren't coming just from newbies (I was here in Advance under the account BB64/Brown_Bomber just when Smogon was starting to pick up steam, so don't give me any "You're a newbie" crap), but from the regulars themselves. I've noticed that when new users asks why Smogon's metagame differs from the official rules (level 50, item clause, etc.) a lot of vets such as badge holders have had some crappy one-liners themselves. Just from reading a few threads, it's apparent that people are so used to the old ways that they just pull things out of their asses ("Level 50 is less pure than level 100!" or "Item clause stifles the metagame!") or just use the cop-out "It's tradition." Removing these inquiries isn't really going to do anything to improve Smogon's image or help competitive Pokemon as a whole, and it's really hypocritical to call out newbies when the regulars use the same old tired arguments.

Just my two cents.