Ability Bridge

SpartanMalice said:
Edit: Hmm. This is weird, according to Honko Snow Cloak Mamo is KO'd by Jolly Chomp while Thick Fat isn't (notice I'm not using sash). But Thick Fat should reduce only Fire and Ice damage, not water damage. This is weird.
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I get exactly the same damage for both calcs using http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ (Honkalculator 4k), which is as it should be.

+2 252 Atk Water Gem Garchomp Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 314-370 (86.98 - 102.49%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Out of the things that Haxorus gets, the only thing that it really enjoys is Close Combat; with Dragon/Fighting coverage, it doesn't really need anything beyond that and would prefer setup moves or one setup move and Taunt. The problem with Aqua Jet is the same as with Garchomp, except it isn't walled by more things; it has 4MSS when considering that the 5th move is a weak non-STAB move that really only has a very niche use. If it chooses to forgo Dragon Dance and use Swords Dance instead, it immediately becomes vulnerable to a lot of faster mons (Lati@s, Starmie, other Dragon-types, Rachi, etc), but if it chooses to use Dragon Dance, it needs twice as many boosts to beat Mamoswine. Overall, I don't really think that Aqua Jet will be all that useful for Chomp and Haxorus, but it does have a niche.

Some other things no one has mentioned:
  • thanks to Miltank, Snorlax finally gets reliable recovery, so it need not rely on Rest anymore. The same goes for Piloswine, but whether it is at all viable is another question entirely. It does mean we get Ice Shard Snorlax though :>
  • Also, Shift Gear Metagross! I suspect it could be quite scary, since it has fairly good 3 move coverage, and is fast and strong when it has a Shift Gear boost under its belt. Klinklang also gets some coverage moves, but it's likely overshadowed by Metagross.
  • Swellow finally gets a movepool that allows it to beat Rock-types; Close Combat and Earthquake are both available from Heracross.
  • Sigilyph gets Quiver Dance with two of its abilities, but neither of them are Magic Guard, which is part of what makes it so fearsome, so that's a bit disappointing. It also gets Baton Pass when it uses Wonder Skin (Venomoth), so I guess it could QD pass if it uses that.
  • Conkeldurr and Golurk can both get Roost and Slack Off from Ledian and Infernape respectively. Golurk can also use STAB Shadow Claw from Infernape, but it's still weaker than Iron Fist-boosted Shadow Punch.
  • All Swift Swimmers get Baton Pass, Shell Smash (both Gorebyss), Rapid Spin (Kabutops), Dragon Dance (Kingdra), Leech Seed (Ludicolo), (Toxic) Spikes (Qwilfish), Icicle Crash (Beartic), Encore (Golduck), Swords Dance (Kabutops), Superpower (Kabutops/Beartic), and Head Smash (Relicanth). Between those there are some potential threats I suspect. There are probably other moves that I have missed, but I think that's most of the relevant SwSw ones.
  • Head Smash/Swords Dance Rock Head Aerodactyl (Aggron and Marowak)
 
Speed Boost Baton Pass Sharpedo is very stronk. It also gets SD and U-Turn. It also has great coverage in Crunch / HJK. Sharpedo is looking pretty swell right now.

Anything with Swift Swim has a pretty neat movepool, and the trade off is a rather situational ability. SwSwer gets Shell Smash (Omastar), SD (Kabutops), Spikes / Toxic Spikes (Qwilfish), and a ton of coverage, such as Giga Drain (Ludicolo), Earth Power (Seismitoed), Megahorn (Seaking), Earthquake (Seismitoed), and a lot more. Watch out for Shell Smash Kingdra, guys! It can go physical, mixed, or special; very dangerous!

HEAD SMASH AERO GET HYPED. Wood Hammer is pretty cool too.
 
Shuckle with Forretress's moveset: Rapid Spin and the Spikes.
Jirachi gets Heal Bell. Save us now. (Togekiss)
Stunfisk, with 109 HP, gets Transform. (Limber)

Also, does that mean Alakazam gets every single TM and Move Tutor move? (Synchronize, Mew) Ice Beam ALL the Dragons!
 
AWailOfATail said:
Shuckle with Forretress's moveset: Rapid Spin and the Spikes.
Jirachi gets Heal Bell. Save us now. (Togekiss)
Stunfisk, with 109 HP, gets Transform. (Limber)

Also, does that mean Alakazam gets every single TM and Move Tutor move? (Synchronize, Mew) Ice Beam ALL the Dragons!
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I guess so, in which case it no longer needs HP Fire or Ice. gg Scizor and Dragons.
Stunfisk will have to take a hit before it can use Transform in most cases, and with that typing that'll probably result in it being severely crippled, but it could be interesting.
Shuckle still has that mediocre defensive typing, but it does get reliable recovery as well (Roost from Skarmory), so I guess that'll help it out a bit. I still suspect it won't be able to tank too many hits though.
Jirachi is going to be pretty potent, with improved special and support movepools, including things like Aura Sphere, Nasty Plot, Ice Beam, Softboiled, Heal Bell, Stored Power, and Extremespeed. It'll be a very versatile and unpredictable Pokemon I suspect.
 
I have made two teams for this so far. If anyone wants to battle me come on Joim's Lab or the main server.

The problem with Alakazam is that in order to get all those moves it needs to use Synchronize. And moreover, Clefable and Sigilyph have Fire Blast, Ice Beam and Heat Wave, Ice Beam respectively. Considering all it needs to borrow is Fire Blast and Ice Beam, that should not be too bad, although it will miss out on Aura Sphere from Mew.

Keldeo looks to be a more potent threat with Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc... all while keeping it's old moves. I was going to use Latios before because of Levitate, but now that Levitate is banned from swapping, I think Keldeo has the edge over him especially as Latios is slower with HP Fire. Terrakion, with the new moves from Justified, can hit a maximum of 505 pokemon super effectively (I tried out the combinations), with 164 Pokemon taking neutral damage. This should be fun.

Edit: Actually it's 514 with Ice Punch, but I think Terrakion will prefer Fire coverage for Scizor and such.
 
Mew already had transform along with a way better speed to use it and even then it s not something it used, like, ever.
Alakazam also has to give up on Magic Guard in order to get Acces to Mew's amazing movepool, which is a shame because without recoiless Life Orb or unbreakable sash it's not as impressive anymore

Lati@s is still faster than Keldeo even with Hp fire
 
That's true but Keldeo has way more options. Previously Latios had Aura Sphere and such with Leviate so there was reason to use it over Keldeo. Now there's good reason to use both (due to DM spam still being good), but I'm gonna try out Keldeo first. It would be funny as hell using Keldeo in sun teams with Fire Blast, bolt beam and sword btw.
 
Since we're on the topic of Keldeo, I'd just like to mention how incredible an ability Justified is in this meta.

<@TTT> Justified is actually an incredible ability in this meta
<~Felix> yeah, it kind of is
<@TTT> There aren't many pokemon, but they have a lot of very potent things
<~Felix> yeah
<@TTT> All of the relevant set up moves
<~Felix> they all get
<~Felix> Extremespeed too
<@TTT> Other than Coil/QD/Smash
<~Felix> from Arcanine
<@TTT> And from Luke
<~Felix> yeah
<@TTT> They all get Nasty Plot, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Aura Sphere, Sucker Punch, Megahorn, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt
<@TTT> Rock Polish, Swords Dance
<@TTT> lol
<@TTT> Close Combat and Flare Blitz
<~Felix> :eek:
<@TTT> the list goes on and on

I can see Keldeo as being an incredibly potent threat in this meta, since it now has access to a lot of moves that broaden its previously barren movepool; special mentions go to Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and Nasty Plot. Ice Beam and Shadow Ball are direct upgrades from the standard Icy Wind/HP Ghost, affording it a significant amount more power. Signal Beam is also available from Gallade if you particularly despise Celebi. Nasty Plot may be the tipping point for Keldeo; now not only does it have incredible coverage, great speed and special attack, and a great offensive typing, but it has an instant +2 to its Special Attack. This boost allows it to power through some of its normal counters, such as Celebi, Gyarados, and Jellicent.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Surf vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in rain: 300-355 (84.98 - 100.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 322-380 (79.7 - 94.05%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 390-460 (96.53 - 113.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 330-390 (81.68 - 96.53%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even the Lati@s get destroyed by +2 moves, although thanks to their higher speed, they can take Keldeo out before it has a chance to attack. Slowking also deserves a mention here; it is not OHKOed by any move other than +2 Shadow Ball, can hit back with Psyshock, and pivot to something to regain health thanks to Regenerator. Specs sets can simply OHKO, while OTR sets can set up Trick Room and proceeded to wreck. Defensive sets can take advantage of Spore from Amoonguss to put Keldeo out of commission.

All in all, I can see Keldeo being a very strong Pokemon in this meta.

I'll probably make a team for this at some point very soon, so if you want to battle hit me up on IRC (on as TTT in #othermetas), or on PS at main or The Battle Tower.
 
Yeah we were discussing it on Joim's too. Don't forget that Absol has Justified, and it has one of the greatest special movepools ever. It heightens Keldeo's versatility. It can run Fire Blast/Overheat in sun, Hydro Pump AND Thunder in rain, or standard Hydro Pump/Boltbeam coverage. It can even opt to use the Sword like before or go fully special with Aura Sphere, or it could use both (But it'll be walled by something then, the usual suspects Celebi and Jelli depending on what move you run). It can use CM like before or use Nasty Plot. Slowbro itself gains something from Slowking's Nasty Plot, as it can use it's superior physical bulk in an OTR set.

Absol also has neat physical options to pass as well (It's higher stat is Attack after all), but it has a very nice special movepool which I'm sure keldeo will appreciate.
 
SpartanMalice said:
Yeah we were discussing it on Joim's too. Don't forget that Absol has Justified, and it has one of the greatest special movepools ever.
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I can assure you, I didn't forget it :p that's where almost all of its special moves come from, other than Shadow Ball (from Lucario) and Signal Beam (from Gallade). Terrakion got some neat new priority in this, including Sucker Punch and Extremespeed. I can see Extremespeed seeing some use on its Choice Band set, and maybe 3 attacks + SD sets, but otherwise I think it is missing either the moveslots for it, or enough power to make it worthwhile.
Something I only just realised; Regenerator mons all get Sacred Fire from Ho-oh. It's somewhat wasted, because the only things that can viably use it are Tangrowth and Mienshao, but it's still an incredible move. It heightens Tangrowth's already great physical bulk by dishing out those handy burns. Tangrowth also gets Slack Off for reliable recovery.
 
Guys, don't forget the ability Pressure.

Kyurem, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Raikou, Suicune, Weavile, Aerodactyl are all noteworthy users of many of these moves. Dusclops is worth a mention as well.

Special Moves: Aura Sphere, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, PsyStrike, Ice Beam, Hurricane, Thunder, Blizzard, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Psycho Boost, Hydro Pump, Earth Power, Spacial Rend, Focus Blast, Frost Breath, Solarbeam, Volt Switch, Eruption, Lava Plume, Overheat, Weather Ball, Scald, Charge Beam, Sludge Bomb

Physical Movepool: Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Tail, Stone Edge, Shadow Force, Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Drain Punch, Superpower, Extremespeed, Brave Bird, Sacred Fire, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Endeavor, U-turn, Flame Charge, Wild Charge, Crunch, Facade, Aqua Tail, Iron Head, Ice punch, Ice Shard, Night Slash, Focus Punch, X-Scissor, Poison Jab, Low Kick, Foul Play, Megahorn, Bounce, Attack Order, Acrobatics

Support Movepool: Stealth Rock, Spikes, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Hone Claws, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Defend Order, Taunt, Toxic, Thunder-Wave, Will-O-Wisp, Substitute, Wish, Recover, Roost, Magic Coat, Reflect, Light Screen, Roar, Whirlwind, Tailwind, Pain Split, Agility, Rock Polish Amnesia, Confuse Ray, Dark Pulse, Destiny Bond, Memento, Trick Room, Disable, Heal Bell, Haze, Hail, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Sandstorm, Tail Wind, Protect, Baton Pass, Mirror Coat, Counter, Torment, Curse, Hypnosis, Endure, Psych Up, Snatch, Perish Song

Obviously Zapdos gets Hurricane and Thunder at last, with Ice Beam to round out its coverage. Everything gets Volt Switch, though Moltres benefits from Acrobatics/Brave bird + Sacred Fire on a physical set.

All Ubers with Pressure grace these pokemon with their moves, and it's pretty amazing when you look at it. Maybe Keldeo's Secret Sword is missing, but aside from that, these are all the moves that dominate the metagame. Everything can run Agility/Swords Dance, and the infamous SD/Espeed combo is here as well.
 
Remember Salamence? Yeah, the one you guys thought was usually outclassed by Dragonite. Intimidate and Moxie have good distribution among mons with potent movepools and Salamence will make use of them. Try Brave Bird for a secondary STAB (Honchkrow if Moxie, Staraptor if Intimidate) with Hi Jump Kick as extra coverage (Scrafty). Close Combat can be used with Moxie if missing chance and huge recoil isn't your thing. He's also got Pursuit to take care of Psychics (these will probably be around a lot considering how good some of their movepools are). Scary.

Same applies for Lando-T of course. Intimidate with good bulk gives him many opportunities to come in, set Dragon Dance and utterly wreck shit with EQ/Brave Bird/filler.

So how about Shell Smash? Volcarona and Chandelure are simply terrifying with it. However, SmashPass remains viable in case you want something else to sweep with it. Hydration Vaporeon fits this role like a glove, as it is essentially a faster, specially bulky Gorebyss that can take a special hit decently well even after SS. Base 110 SpA is also really useful for using it herself.

Porygon-Z becomes a mini-Genesect guys. Let that sink in. On top of that its SpA is already great even without Download boost. Give it a scarf and watch as it wrecks shit.

Double boosting Keldeo in rain is just crazy.

Swift Swim Kingdra gets Shell Smash, too. gg

I... will not participate in this meta. Let's say I do not exactly thrive in such offensive metas. It's a lot of fun to theorymon about it though so you might see me every now and then anyway.
 
Justified is great. It gets Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Giga Drain, Aura Sphere, Thunder, Blizzard, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Psychic, Overheat, etc for special, and Close Combat (from all users bar one), Ice and Thunder Punches, ExtremeSpeed, Stone Edge, Iron Head, Crunch, Earthquake, Megahorn, Sucker Punch, Zen Headbutt, X-scissor, Flare BLitz, Wild Charge, Leaf Blade, Poison Jab, and Night Slash for physical, although there are only 8 fully evolved pokemon that get it.

Unfortunetaly, justified itself isn't that good of an ability.

Also, Tyranitar can stick around longer with Slack Off from Hippowdon, and it can force switches better with Whirlwind, again from Hippowdon. In return, Hippowdon gets a huge special movepool that it can't use well due to its 68 Base SpA and Rain Dance (yes, TTar can use Rain Dance).
 
Terrakion and Lucario will be the main physical abusers and I can safely say that they aren't going to abuse stuff like Poison Jab much, but Terra appreciates extra coverage. As I said before, with it's Dual Stabs it only needs to use two coverage moves to hit 90% of the game super effectively. Rock/Fighting/Ice/Grass alone gives it SE coverage on 513 mons, while if you replace Ice with Fire, it still gets SE coverage of 503 and takes out Scizor if it has enough HP t live a BP. Grass takes care of mons like Pika's Quagsire.

It doesn't really matter that Justified is a meh ability as the moves it provides alone gives Keldeo and Terra insane power. Terra can also abuse the attack boost with defensive ttar being more common now.
 
Another thing I didn't see mentioned is that Justified users get Volt Switch too (Cobalion). Scarf Keldeo is going to be so rad, maybe with a set of Volt Switch / Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / Ice Beam or Fire Blast. Luke could use it too, but I think Luke will stick with SD / Agiltiy. Virizion now has no reason to go physical, as special gives it a better movepool and pseudo-mixed attacking (thanks to Secret Sword, which is the best Fighting special STAB imo).

EDIT: Vaccum Wave could be neat, but the pokemon that would use it are already fast, so idk.
 
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Pikachuun said:
Snorlax gets Gluttony, great bulk, and great attack. Linoone gets Gluttony, Belly Dum, and Extremespeed. Let that sink in for a bit.
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I think we have a winner.
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Snorlax ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 306-360 (89.21 - 104.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Snorlax ExtremeSpeed vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-204 (53.21 - 62.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now that's what I call a late game sweeper.
 
youngjake93 said:
I think we have a winner.
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Snorlax ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 306-360 (89.21 - 104.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Snorlax ExtremeSpeed vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-204 (53.21 - 62.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now that's what I call a late game sweeper.
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Don't forget about Fire coverage from Simisear :L
 
Snorlax has much higher special bulk than Arceus and only 10 less attack.
Meanwhile, it doesn't have to worry about getting through things like Giratina, Lugia, Groudon, etc. It can even run a CurseLax set.

Also, Staraptor and Granbull have that 120 attack stat and SD+ESpeed. Raticate gets Hustle ESpeed from 81 attack. These three also get Fake Out with those abilities, so they could be ultimate revenge killers.
 
Guys, formes have the access of their other forms in regular play so this should apply as well aside from fusion bolt and fusion flare on the kyurem formes what does this mean exactly? Blue Flare Kyurem because it gains blue flare through kyurem W bridging it from reshiram, etc. and most importantly, Landorus-T gets darmanitan's movepool, namely FLARE BLITZ because landorus-i can bridge it and then pass it on to the transition to lando-t form. Let me know what you guys think about this discovery, Level 51 can we allow this to test how it may change the metagame? there aren't much things that are necessarily broken with it, and it's something that's 100% doable with the current restrictions,

EDIT: This however means that you can form pass the reshiram bridge that kyurem-w gets to kyurem B, lending kyuB blue flare and flame charge AND tail wind, would this change the meta TOO much in a broken direction?

EDIT 2: LOL ROTOM FORMES GET NOTHING FROM BRIDGING EVEN WITH THIS POSSIBILLITY
 
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OiawesomeDG, Landorus-T already received Flare Blitz from Arcanine, so it's no help to it there. It's somewhat an interesting concept, but it ends up with things like Prankster Spore Tornadus, Blue Flare/Tailwind Kyurem-B, and Roost/Tail Glow Thundurus-T (not as broken, but still horrifically powerful). Shaymin also gains the ridiculously wide movepool of Serene Grace users. I don't really see any particular appeal in that modification to be honest; it adds unnecessary complexity, the only things it benefits it also breaks, and there's no real reason for it to be added as far as I can see. Not my meta though so Level 51 can decide.
 
Jolteon. Oh god, jolteon. If you give it the ability quick feet, it becomes very scary very fast. With quick feet, it has access to spore, fire blast, flamethrower, spikes, taunt, ice beam, and probably moves I missed. But holy crap. Also, starmie gets tail glow :) (And so does accelgor)
 
TheBurgerKing99 said:
Jolteon. Oh god, jolteon. If you give it the ability quick feet, it becomes very scary very fast. With quick feet, it has access to spore, fire blast, flamethrower, spikes, taunt, ice beam, and probably moves I missed. But holy crap. Also, starmie gets tail glow :) (And so does accelgor)
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So does Tornadus :)
Speaking of Quick Feet, they all get Spore, Extremespeed, Belly Drum, and Baton Pass. That does not sound like a pleasing combination to be on the receiving end of.
 
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