Ability Bridge

Yeah, but jolteon is sweet because it now has a movepool that abuses it's speed. In other news, sharpedo gets swords dance, flare blitz, close combat, brave bird, x-scissor, and probably other stuff. Politoed gets waterspout, and ninetales gets eruption. as does every flashfire mon. Which all also get CC, Extreme Speed, Flare Blitz, Energy Ball, and most likely other stuff. I think the fun of this meta is guessing what your opponent is running, due to movepools being so varied. I mean, if you saw a jolteon, would you assume it has quick feet spore? Of course not (unless for some reason you know both it and shroomish have quick feet). This means I think discussion of threats is a bad thing, because it leads to less surprise value in actual games.
 
TheBurgerKing99 said:
Yeah, but jolteon is sweet because it now has a movepool that abuses it's speed. In other news, sharpedo gets swords dance, flare blitz, close combat, brave bird, x-scissor, and probably other stuff. Politoed gets waterspout, and ninetales gets eruption. as does every flashfire mon. Which all also get CC, Extreme Speed, Flare Blitz, Energy Ball, and most likely other stuff. I think the fun of this meta is guessing what your opponent is running, due to movepools being so varied. I mean, if you saw a jolteon, would you assume it has quick feet spore? Of course not (unless for some reason you know both it and shroomish have quick feet). This means I think discussion of threats is a bad thing, because it leads to less surprise value in actual games.
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Re: discussion of threats, I suppose it does lower surprise value, but it also gives those who are interested in playing but don't want to spend several hours theorymonning or don't have a great imagination to find out what some of the potential sets are that they could try, or find out what is relevant in the meta. I feel like this outweighs the negatives, because knowing what something has access to is in no way the same as knowing what it is running, so surprise value is still there. Plus, if there is no discussion, it wouldn't surprise me if the meta receded into obscurity, unless we can come up with another topic to discuss instead that will keep the thread and meta alive and relevant.
 
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Yeah just so people know: Tornadus has Prankster Copycat and Whirlwind, plus Roost. I have had three battles against Michael91 on Joim's yesterday and all of them ended with just tornadus spamming Copycat. It almost made me stop playing this meta <_< so I hope not everyone use it because I don't like Prankster Copycat+Whirlwind (Nothing personal against Michael91 but I've seen it used on OU before and IMO it's an incredibly cheap way to win). I know protect and such break the chain but, tornadus is in practice a better mon than riolu for this, as it can actually threaten you.
 
SpartanMalice said:
Yeah just so people know: Tornadus has Prankster Copycat and Whirlwind, plus Roost. I have had three battles against Michael91 on Joim's yesterday and all of them ended with just tornadus spamming Copycat. It almost made me stop playing this meta <_< so I hope not everyone use it because I don't like Prankster Copycat+Whirlwind (Nothing personal against Michael91 but I've seen it used on OU before and IMO it's an incredibly cheap way to win). I know protect and such break the chain but, tornadus is in practice a better mon than riolu for this, as it can actually threaten you.
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Extremespeed is pretty widespread now, as is Magic Coat and other priority, given to even Chansey and Terrakion. Plus, spinners are widespread as well, and you can always use Espeon, of course.
 
Pikachuun said:
Extremespeed is pretty widespread now, as is Magic Coat and other priority, given to even Chansey and Terrakion. Plus, spinners are widespread as well, and you can always use Espeon, of course.
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But the things is, you need that priority to beat it, but if Tornadus protects, it can easily demolish you with incredibly strong attacks, also I had Fake Out Heracross in one of my games, but it took 12 turns before it was sent out by Whirlwind, in that time my fairly SR resisting mons lost a lot of health already.
 
Prankster shuffling is always going to invoke this kind of reaction; while some may view it as noncompetitive, or a crutch for bad players, it's just another thing you need to take into account. To be fair, Torn is a much better user of it than Riolu, having an offensive presence on both sides of the spectrum, reliable recovery, an item slot, and much better speed. I suppose if it's enough of a problem, it could be suspected or banned, but as it is, running Protect, Extremespeed, or some other similar priority is probably the best you can manage. I was lucky enough when battling it to get my max speed Prankster Taunt Tornadus out on the first turn of shuffling, so it ended there.
 
Just had a match yesterday with Klang and we uncovered some new *possible* big ass threats

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/customgame-50904305

it was mainly a game to test around with things, he facepalmed when he acidently made his DD Head Smash Aero have a choice band lmao.

So for you guys who want to know what threats I uncovered let me show you:
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Trick-Spore Mienshao
Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Trick - Regenerator Reuniclus
- Spore - Regenerator Amoongus
- Hi Jump Kick
- U-turn

This set really brings mienshao's speed to it's fullest use, Spore is really key, as spore enables you to disable threats, and a wide range of them too, for instance +1 adamant aerodactyl, +100 positive natured base 100s-104s, etc. especially with HJK to destroy basically all the sap sipper pokes, and trick to really cripple walls, and U-turn really lets it grab momentum, really trick spore mienshao, especially considering that it can use it's best ability, it's just really a damn great asset to most teams.

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Wall Destroyer Conkeldurr
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat - Guts Machamp and Heracross
- Megahorn - Guts Heracross
- Wild Charge - Guts Luxray
- U-turn - Guts Swellow / Ice Punch - Itself

Oh god, I cannot tell you guys how much I loved this thing when I first discovered it, imagine the on site sheer force LO wall breaker set, except the abillity to use guts, Close Combat, something that 2HKOs max/max cresselia, a potentially momentum supporting move, and a direct upgrade from thunder punch.
You get a total Beast
Here are some calcs to show this beasts power:
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 250-296 (56.3 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 302-359 (79.26 - 94.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Jirachi: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 268-317 (66.5 - 78.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 432-510 (118.68 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, you get the point, this thing IS a fucking beast. There is no wall that this thing will be afraid to trample.

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Sturdy Smash Sawk
Sawk @ Black Glasses / Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch - Sturdy Steelix
- Shell Smash - Sturdy Carracosta
- Rapid Spin - Sturdy Forretress

Oh yes, I brought this up. Sturdy Sawk potentially will be the BEST pokemon in this metagame, I'm making that call right now aside from cheapmons like copycat torny-i which I'm glad Kl4ng had the dignity not to use, thanks man, anyway you may be asking why, let me show you.
So what do you get, when you take, a offensive fighting type 125 base attack sturdy mon (which sounds insane already) with meh OU speed, and give it shell smash?

PURE INSANITY

Yeah, and considering this thing gets rapid spin, something exclusive to defensive mons and excadrill (lol), for the pure sake of having it not be TOO good, you know it's going to change how you play hazards, now not only can sawk destroy all them SR setters with MB Choice Band set , but it can just not give a single shit about them and rapid spin them away when it's done with it's shell smash sweep, which btw, isn't going to end TOO fast, un-dropped defenses sawk can actually take a priority hit which is p. cool for fending off priority pre-smash, also did I mention the oh so lovely sturdy steelix lets it have crunch? if not, well I want you to know that, a fighting type offensive rapid spinner with shell smash and a way to destroy spinblockers (ssmash + crunch), this thing is a mad ass threat, you NEED to have a sturdy mon on every team and make sure to have whirlwind and sturdy intact if you want to survive this storm like Kl4ng did in our battle, because after a boost, not even choice scarfves are saving you, to see this mad ass power, lets take a calc of sawks attack and speed after a smash: 766 attack and 538 speed with an adamant nature forget about trying to compete with it's speed if it's timid.
Here are some calcs to show this thing as the threat it truly is:
Spinblockers VS Smash Sawk
+2 252+ Atk BlackGlasses Sawk Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 402-474 (99.75 - 117.61%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk BlackGlasses Sawk Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 202-238 (50.12 - 59.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (pre boost)
+2 252+ Atk BlackGlasses Sawk Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 674-794 (257.25 - 303.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk BlackGlasses Sawk Crunch vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Mismagius: 576-678 (177.77 - 209.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ETC.

Hazard Setters
+2 252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 237-280 (66.94 - 79.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 237-280 (72.47 - 85.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 498-588 (141.47 - 167.04%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ETC.

anyway, those were all my fighting type threats, I have more threats, but this post is already so damned long
 
Despite the fact that I use Tornadus with copycat/whirlwind, I think it should be banned. I just threw that set on my Tornadus as an afterthought since I had room for a couple moves. However, it ended up winning half my battles for me. I'll keep using it as long as it's legal; after all, I make a team to win. However, it's just too effective against too many teams, too centralizing, and too annoying to fight against. I think copycat or the copycat whirlwind combination, should be banned from the meta game.
 
So the first thing I did was check what Flygon gained, but it turns out that I found something else much more interesting:
Bronzong
Cosmic Power
Recover
Stored Power
Focusblast/Aurasphere
 
I've been using a Rain Team with double SubSeed and both of the SubSeeders worked quite well, here are they:

1. Toxicroak @ Black Sludge
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Spore (Parasect)
- Leech Seed (Parasect)
- Substitute
- Drain Punch

If you get this set up, it will recover more when it uses Substitute than it uses that turn, it has Drain Punch for even more recovery, but it might be overkill. I am considering to replace it with Focus Punch.

1. Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 228 SDef / 248 HP / 32 Spd
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed (Shaymin S)
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head

This SubSeeder is one of the most annoying ones, you Seed something and then you can just keep flinching/para'ing it, while he keeps losing additional health because he is seeded and in the same way, this keeps Recovering health.
 
Given the fact that I don't think this metagame is ready for Flare Blitz Lando-T with Dragon Dance / whatever (or Tailwind Kyu-B with Bolt Strike for that matter), I think it'd be a good idea to ban moves from being carried over by forme changes. Thoughts?

TalkTakesTime said:
Prankster Spore Tornadus
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ok that's argument enough
 
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Level 51 said:
Given the fact that I don't think this metagame is ready for Flare Blitz Lando-T with Dragon Dance / whatever (or Tailwind Kyu-B with Bolt Strike for that matter), I think it'd be a good idea to ban moves from being carried over by forme changes. Thoughts?
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Flare Blitz DDance Lando-T already exists courtesy of Arcanine and Salamence :p However, I agree that we should ban that, as otherwise we get things like Prankster Spore Tornadus, and the Kyurem-B moves you already mentioned. These seem to me to be pushing towards a slightly broken meta, although it probably isn't established well enough yet that we can break it. Regardless, I agree that they should be banned.
 
Kyu-B gets those two anyway regardless as it only has Teravolt. I tried using it once but I had better luck with Keldeo as Bolt Strike kept missing :\

Tornadus also gets Hi Jump Kick from Riolu and I designed it as a TTar lure, but so far I always crash. Seriously I had better luck with focus miss o.O, I kinda wish Riolu got CC so that Tornadus can actually go mixed. Anyway, I'll all for the prankster copycat/whirlwind ban should it come up. And definitely for Prankster Spore Tornadus and the like.
 
Wow, that's a lot of banning being done and proposed. It probably should have been expected that a huge slew of uber worthy pokemon would emerge from this exchange. If things keep going at this rate there's going to be enough banned pokemon to make an Ability Bridge Ubers.

Anyway, I suppose I'll turn my attention to my NEXT favorite pokemon:
Defiant Empoleon
-Roost: RECOVERY. FINALLY!
-Thunderwave: About time it got a status condition besides poison.
-Hypnosis: Sleep, eh? Interesting.
-Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast:
-Hurricane: Well someone got beaten with the coverage stick. I guess that's what you get for being connected to the genies.
 
I've been wanting to try out Empoleon too, I think it personally prefers something like: Boosting move/status move, stab and boltbeam coverage though, not rain reliant and hits almost the same threats. Then again it's also because I have a hurricane user on my team already so yeah. Defensively however, Roost sounds very usable, it has great synergy with mons like Amoonguss and Lando-T, as it can take almost everything aimed at them and roost away, but has to be careful of boltbeam keldeo. A Specs set can make use of all four moves though, and will hit really hard in rain especially if it uses Thunder instead.
 
amoonguss.gif

Annoying Support

Amoonguss @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Spore
- Heal Bell (Audino)/Stealth Rock (Corsola)/Leech Seed (Tangrowth)
- Slack Off (Slowbro)
- Giga Drain

Amoongus is such a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame, it walls Keldeo because it resists both its STABS and has reliable recovery in Slack Off, has access to Spore, can heal status for your whole team and can even lay Stealth Rock! I'd say he's a must have for rain stall teams.
steelix.gif
&
regirock.gif

New Hazard Controllers

Steelix/Regirock @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin/Stealth Rock

After a lot of testing, I can say that Steelix is extremely useful for rain, taking electric attacks and absorbing Thunderwave from the likes of Celebi. Much better than Forretress in my opinion, and probably gives Skarmory competition.

Regirock is even better in the sand, taking physical attacks and special attacks alike with its amazing mixed bulk in the sand.
 
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Adrian Marin said:
Annoying Support

Amoonguss @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Spore
- Heal Bell (Audino)/Stealth Rock (Corsola)/Leech Seed (Tangrowth)
- Slack Off (Slowbro)
- Giga Drain

Amoongus is such a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame, it walls Keldeo because it resists both its STABS and has reliable recovery in Slack Off, has access to Spore, can heal status for your whole team and can even lay Stealth Rock! I'd say he's a must have for rain stall teams
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It doesn't really wall Keldeo, since Keldeo now gets access to moves like Ice Beam (which is an easy 2HKO with just Expert Belt and SR. With Life Orb and Nasty Plot it gets straight OHKOed. You could argue that it can then pivot out and come back with 33% more health, but in the meantime something else has to take a pretty serious hit, and even then it can only take another hit some of the time, depending on the set. At best it's a check, although it does fairly well against scarf Keldeo, but it does fear Trick.

Adrian Marin said:
New Hazard Controllers

Steelix/Regirock @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin/Stealth Rock

After a lot of testing, I can say that Steelix is extremely useful for rain, taking electric attacks and absorbing Thunderwave from the likes of Celebi. Much better than Forretress in my opinion, and probably gives Skarmory competition.

Regirock is even better in the sand, taking physical attacks and special attacks alike with its amazing mixed bulk in the sand.
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Regirock would be much more useful if it wasn't for the fact that Sturdy is currently unreleased. Steelix really appreciates the recovery, although it still suffers from being incredibly slow and having a bunch of unfortunate weaknesses.
 
TalkTakesTime said:
It doesn't really wall Keldeo, since Keldeo now gets access to moves like Ice Beam (which is an easy 2HKO with just Expert Belt and SR. With Life Orb and Nasty Plot it gets straight OHKOed. You could argue that it can then pivot out and come back with 33% more health, but in the meantime something else has to take a pretty serious hit, and even then it can only take another hit some of the time, depending on the set. At best it's a check, although it does fairly well against scarf Keldeo, but it does fear Trick.


Regirock would be much more useful if it wasn't for the fact that Sturdy is currently unreleased. Steelix really appreciates the recovery, although it still suffers from being incredibly slow and having a bunch of unfortunate weaknesses.
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Amoonguss is definitely a better counter to Keldeo than Jellicent, because most of them use Volt Switch with LO/Specs, Amoonguss has way more survivability courtesy of Regenerator. I'd say that Keldeo currently has no "true counters." Also, I was so excited about Regirock until you said it was unreleased. 1 thing that Steelix has over Skarmory is an immunity to electric and better overall bulk.
 
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Celebi and Slowbro/Slowking probably come closest to being a "counter" to Keldeo. Keldeo's new options made it forget about Celebi and how it used to run HP Bug for it.
 
Keldeo really hurts Slowking/Slowbro with Volt Switch, especially with specs, all of its common counters cannot wall it as well any longer because of the addition of Ice Beam and Volt Switch.
 
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