Ability Bridge

[AWailOfATail]

Indeed, Keldeo is hard to stop. I suggest unbanning Soul Dew since Lati@s have Levitate which can't be bridged.

I also agree. It should be able to check Keldeo. I'll run some calcs when I get a chance tomorrow.

EDIT: I got a bit of time.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 210-248 (69.76 - 82.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 480-566 (124.35 - 146.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Think that says a lot.

 

[ryan]

I'll take a +1 SpA/SpD Latias any time, but prepare for Keldeo's "checks" to become overcentralizing themselves. It sounds like banning Keldeo would be a better move to make.

 

[Mulan15262]

I'll take a +1 SpA/SpD Latias any time, but prepare for Keldeo's "checks" to become overcentralizing themselves. It sounds like banning Keldeo would be a better move to make.

Or you could just not let the Justified ability bridge, or prevent Keldeo from bridging, or prevent Keldeo from getting any move from other pokemon, etc.

 

[TalkTakesTime]

Or you could just not let the Justified ability bridge, or prevent Keldeo from bridging, or prevent Keldeo from getting any move from other pokemon, etc.

It'd be good to avoid complex bans where we can in my opinion. I'd be against banning Justified bridging; Keldeo is really the only one who is particularly problematic, so it would leave the others at a distinct disadvantage. This is different to the Levitate bridging ban in that Levitate is a very widespread ability with a large number of powerful users who gained very large and highly advantageous movepools, whereas Justified has a narrow distribution, and Keldeo is the only one who gains enough to cause any consternation, so banning Justified bridging as a whole seems to me to cause a large amount of collateral damage for something that could be solved simply by banning one Pokemon. Preventing Keldeo from getting moves from others also seems to me to be unnecessarily complex, so on the whole, I'd prefer that only Keldeo was banned, since it is the sole currently uncounterable Pokemon.

I also feel like unbanning Soul Dew would have a negative effect on the meta, rather than a positive one. While Lati@s cannot bridge, they already have a very good movepool, great typings, and very good stat spreads. While they may be overlooked currently due to other things receiving bridged moves and thus more interest, I have little doubt that with Soul Dew they would be very powerful forces, as a 1.5x SAtk/SDef boost with no drawback other than lacking an item slot is incredibly powerful. I suspect that if they were unleashed in order to deal with Keldeo, they'd all be rather overcentralising.

tl;dr - ban Keldeo > Soul Dew or complex bans

 

[Talpr0ne]

Actually Prankster Spore whit the genies is impossible(if ever bridges from evolutionary relatives and alternative forms will be allowed), since Tornadus-T always turns into a Defiant Thundurus by using the Reveal Glass. The same applies to Thundurus-T, which also has always Defiant when he turns into his Incarnate form.
Very few Pokémon become broken whit the bridges from alternative forms or preevos, actually only Gyarados, Politoed and Jynx are , which all get Shell Smash from pre-evos bridges(Swift Swim or Rattled Magikarp which turns into Intimidate or Moxie Gyarados, Swift Swim Poliwhirl which turns into Drzzle Politoed and Hydratation Smoochum which turns into Dry Skin Jynx). Other bridges are nice but not that groundbreaking as Shell Smash Gyarados. Examples includes Extreme Speed Guts Ursaring and Extreme Speed Immunity Snorlax(from Pickup Zigzagoon which bridges whit both Pickup Teddiursa and Munchlax), Fire Blast Kingdra(from Poison Point Seadra and Nidoking) and Close Combat Weavile(from Inner Focus Sneasel and Hitmonchan). You can check what Pokémon change ability here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pokémon_by_Ability
Uh, remember that.

Some Abilities introduced in Generation IV were assigned to Pokémon introduced in the previous generations, changing them from being single-Ability Pokémon into dual-Ability Pokémon. When transferred through Pal Park, a Pokémon will keep its Generation III Ability, however, upon evolution, the Ability may change into the other Ability for the species, depending on the personality value of the Pokémon. In this way, a Horsea with Swift Swim caught in Hoenn could become a Seadra with Sniper, but only if Horsea's personality value dictated it.

. Check the list and see if we are going to have so many gamebreakers whit that new rule, i guess not, thought.


Speaking of Keldeo, i think that the better option is ban it.

 

[TalkTakesTime]

Talpr0ne, we were not proposing to allow bridging over evolutions, only formes. What you say may be true, but I still see no convincing reason why it would improve the meta, which to me is the main reason to ban/allow certain things. Based on that, I still feel that there is no real benefit from allowing additional complex bridging. In addition, allowing only Defiant Spore genies to me is an unnecessary complex clause, and you can see my feelings about complex bans/clauses in my previous post. The decision is obviously not up to me, but those are my thoughts on it.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Well, the Spore Tornadus thing is not a complex ban, is a game mechanic. Imagine Spore as a move exclusive of the Dream Radar. The same applies to bridging over evolutions, see Starmie, which is able to use Hydro Pump even thought that's a move that only Staryu can naturally learn. I propose this for having a metagame as close as possible to the real games. See Stabmons, which applies a similar clause.

 

[ryan]

I propose this for having a metagame as close as possible to the real games.

Staying true to the real games isn't the intent of Other Metagames. If Level 51 wants to apply this, he certainly can, but it sounds like a ton of work for few changes, some of which are arguably broken anyways. This metagame is complex enough, and I don't see much reason to make it any more so.

 

[Arcticblast]

Well, the Spore Tornadus thing is not a complex ban, is a game mechanic. Imagine Spore as a move exclusive of the Dream Radar. The same applies to bridging over evolutions, see Starmie, which is able to use Hydro Pump even thought that's a move that only Staryu can naturally learn. I propose this for having a metagame as close as possible to the real games. See Stabmons, which applies a similar clause.

1) Pranskter Tornadus can change forme as many times as it likes and will never have Defiant.
2) Hydro Pump Starmie is fine, as this metagame allows bridging on top of the movepool a Pokemon already has.

 

[AWailOfATail]

All Sturdy pokes: Endeavor, Pursuit, Aqua Jet (Level 1 anyone?)

Rock Head Aerodactyl also gets Swords Dance and Head Smash. Thought it was worth noting.

This tier will be so much fun.

 

[Mulan15262]

Rock Head Aerodactyl also gets Swords Dance and Head Smash. Thought it was worth noting.

Everything with Rock Head now gets Swords Dance and Head Smash. And Earthquake (although all but Bagon, Shelgon, and Basculin already get it).

Also, can a pokemon bridge from prior evolutionary forms (like Whirlwind Justified Lucario (from Prankster Murkrow, bridging by Prankster Riolu) or Poison Sting Butterfree (from Shield Dust Weedle, bridging by Shield Dust Caterpie))?

 

[SpartanMalice]

That would make things too complicated IMO and I prefer it the way it is atm.

 

[TalkTakesTime]

Also, can a pokemon bridge from prior evolutionary forms (like Whirlwind Justified Lucario (from Prankster Murkrow, bridging by Prankster Riolu) or Poison Sting Butterfree (from Shield Dust Weedle, bridging by Shield Dust Caterpie))?

Currently, no. We have just been discussing this, and it is of course Level 51's decision, but honestly I think it would just be unnecessarily complex, and I don't really see why it would be worth it.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Just like Keldeo, I notice that Landorus-T is incredibly hard to stop with coverage moves. It can use a moveset of Earthquake, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz and Extreme Speed. Countering Landorus-T is extremely difficult and unbalanced the metagame. In fact, Landorus-T and Keldeo are one of the reasons why stall is so difficult to use in this metagame.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Adrian's right, but stall is basically impossible with this metagame's passed moves leaning toward only benefitting balance and offense anyways

EDIT: Forretress gets roost through sturdy skarm, have fun spike stacking HO

 

[Sewa]

Well, Amoonguss gets Slack Off, Skarmory gets Rapid Spin.
Support Tyranitar has Slack Off too. Damp Swampert has Spore or WoW and Recover.
Jirachi can use Leech Seed and Softboiled as opposed to Wish.
Gyarados can be defensive with Roost too.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Well, Amoonguss gets Slack Off, Skarmory gets Rapid Spin.
Support Tyranitar has Slack Off too. Damp Swampert has Spore or WoW and Recover.
Jirachi can use Leech Seed and Softboiled as opposed to Wish.
Gyarados can be defensive with Roost too.

Tell me how these things are not bowing to the massive ass threats such as DD Flare Blitz Lando, U-turn, rock polish and or Calm Mind sheer force nidos (really hard to switch into, believe me) , ice beam keldeo, bolt strike tailwind KyuB, shell smash sawk, wall destroyer conkeldurr etc.

Seriously, I love stall, but this offensive metagame just pushes it off the edge, this just isn't the meta for stall players

 

[Adrian Marin]

Tell me how these things are not bowing to the massive ass threats such as DD Flare Blitz Lando, U-turn, rock polish and or Calm Mind sheer force nidos (really hard to switch into, believe me) , ice beam keldeo, bolt strike tailwind KyuB, shell smash sawk, wall destroyer conkeldurr etc.

Seriously, I love stall, but this offensive metagame just pushes it off the edge, this just isn't the meta for stall players

In my opinion, a few small changes can really make Ability Bridge a balanced metagame, if the goal is to make it a balanced metagame, I don't see a reason why OP offensive threats should even be roaming around the tier in the first place.

 

[Mr Omgness]

The biggest problem with Keldeo now is that it learns Volt Switch and that it's main checks are (and have always been) pursuitbait. Switch in your Celebi, Jellicent or Slowking/Bro onto Keldeo's Volt Switch and say hello to a free TTar or Scizor switch in who will dispatch your fella. Your best bet is to get the prediction game right and hope it's choiced and not expert belt. To scout the set of Keldeo you are therefore pretty much forced to switch in your main counter/check the first time your opponent uses it.

Maybe Gastrodon is a better bet?

The TTar/Keldeo/Celebi/Lando-T core I've been facing from various players is a true nightmare to play against.

On a different note: I havent seen any Sun team at all, it's all Rain and Sand.

 

[Snaquaza]

The biggest problem with Keldeo now is that it learns Volt Switch and that it's main checks are (and have always been) pursuitbait. Switch in your Celebi, Jellicent or Slowking/Bro onto Keldeo's Volt Switch and say hello to a free TTar or Scizor switch in who will dispatch your fella. Your best bet is to get the prediction game right and hope it's choiced and not expert belt. To scout the set of Keldeo you are therefore pretty much forced to switch in your main counter/check the first time your opponent uses it.

Maybe Gastrodon is a better bet?

The TTar/Keldeo/Celebi/Lando-T core I've been facing from various players is a true nightmare to play against.

On a different note: I havent seen any Sun team at all, it's all Rain and Sand.

Toxicroak is Keldeo's best check imo, it isn't weak to any common move and takes about 40% from Ice Beam / Thunderbolt I think, which means it can easily Dry Skin + Black Sludge + Leech Seed Stall the Keldeo and it can even Spore it if the Sleep Clause hasn't yet activated

 

[Mr Omgness]

Toxicroak is good indeed as I've seen in your games hehe; I've tested specially defensive Tentacruel and Gastrodon and they also do fairly well, but will fail to check Keldeo by themselves over the whole game in most scenarios. If you use a 2nd switch-in to keldeo it gets a lot easier tho.

Leech Seed Rain Dish Tentacruel has been doing quite well for me actually.

 

[SpartanMalice]

I just realized Chlorophyll and Rain Dish also get Hurricane from Whimsicott and Pelipper, respectively; in the case of Rain Dish it gives SS Ludicolo another option but really, I think Chlorophyll benefits more as they get Quiver Dance too courtesy of Lilligant.

Arcticblast edit: lol I forgot about Pelipper, you should have said that in your post >:|

 

[Mr Omgness]

Talk about a 4MSS: Hydration Vaporeon gets Shell Smash and Tail Glow, we know that much yep. It gets Hydro Pump/Surf and Ice Beam naturally, which is a good start but now comes the coverage: Vaporeon has access to Thunder/Thunderbolt, Hurricane, Stored Power (140 BP after 1 SS, fun thing is that Vaporeon learns it naturally) and a dozen other (less useful/powerful) coverage options. Keep in mind that Vaporeon also appreciates Rest in his moveset and you just wished you had 6 moveslots (or more).

 

[yikes]

Talk about a 4MSS: Hydration Vaporeon gets Shell Smash and Tail Glow, we know that much yep. It gets Hydro Pump/Surf and Ice Beam naturally, which is a good start but now comes the coverage: Vaporeon has access to Thunder/Thunderbolt, Hurricane, Stored Power (140 BP after 1 SS, fun thing is that Vaporeon learns it naturally) and a dozen other (less useful/powerful) coverage options. Keep in mind that Vaporeon also appreciates Rest in his moveset and you just wished you had 6 moveslots (or more).

you just wished you had 6 moveslots

6 moveslots

6-move Ability Bridge...

shudders

 

[Mr Omgness]

6-move Ability Bridge Doubles.

Where is your god now?