Vital Spirit gives sleep immunity, but prevents Pokemon from using Rest. Early Bird gives a one-turn Rest, which could prove useful for bulky Pokemon and Rest-Talk sets.
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Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)
- Thread starter forestflamerunner
- Start date
I wouldn't leave Keen Eye at D tier. It's not too bad in-game, but in this meta with accuracy-lowering moves like Sand Attack and Smokescreen banned, it becomes almost entirely useless. There are very few competitively-viable moves that lower accuracy- the closest you'll get is Muddy Water, but everything that can use it will almost always use Surf instead. Definitely needs to be moved down to F tier.
How is Sand Stream not S-tier? Tyranitar has been one of the top 10 most used pokemon for THREE GENERATIONS, and Sand Stream has defined the metagame. And we've already banned TWO pokemon in this metagame alone simply from the effects of Sand Stream (Garchomp/Excadrill). Not to mention it cancels out two other S-tier abilities completely.
Probably because it's canceled out by the other weathers, many of the abusers are weak to, or at least hit hard by water. and maybe even some of droughts abusers can put a dent in, or even kill sand. Crappy starter doesn't mean crappy weather :)
I disagree with your assertion that grass types are strictly inferior to Fire and Water moves. There are LOTS of powerful grass type users in the metagame, and furthermore Sap Sipper also provides immunity to a large number of status moves, including the infamous Spore and Leech Seed. That's no small deal. Overgrow might be marginally worse than Blaze and Torrent because Grass isn't AS potent an offensive type, but it's not so much that it deserves to be a whole tier lower. Again, the reason we never discuss it is because the Pokemon that get it are so rarely offensive that it doesn't come up, unlike Blaze where all the fire type staters are offensively inclined.
No I think F tier being for abilities that are completely useless and / or detrimental is better. We don't need a jillion tiers; the 6 we have is enough already. Also, just because an ability can be given to something else to hurt it doesn't make it any more tan F tier; I don't think we should be considering stuff like Entrainment in our tiering. I still think Sandstream deserves to be S tier; the only reason that not everything that has it is OU is because Tyranitar gets it and outclasses almost anything else that could get it. That's the Pokemon doing that, not the ability. I think that the effects permanent sandstorm has are too incredibly powerful to not be S tier. We simply forget this because Sand Stream has been around so much longer than the other weather changing abilities (in OU anyway) that we forget how potent it really is.
As for Unaware, no no no not S tier. It's good but it's not THAT good. A tier for sure, but it's not Magic Bounce levels of game changing. I consider it somewhere near the level of Magic Guard; ALMOST S tier but just not quite. If it had better distribution we'd totally realize this more.
Agreed, it's situational but it's not detrimental. I mean, if you didn't want to take advantage of it you can still wield an item. It's not totally useless either. It's just not something you'd use most of the time. D class would be my placement for it, since not being able to chose your own item is rather bad, even if you do get to steal an opponents item.
Yes I'd rather have Moxie, but not by a great margin. I do agree Tinted Lens deserve A rank; it'd give you almost completely unresisted coverage for MOST attacking types, and dragon would get COMPLETELY unresisted coverage. That's pretty damn big (imagine Tinted Lens Haxorus. Now weep.)
As I said before, the possibility of giving a bad ability to something else doesn't make it any less a bad ability and any less F tier. As for Stall being potentially useful for Volt-Turn... no, just no. A slow Volt-Turn is NOT worth always going last. Use a slow Pokemon with Volt-Turn instead. Sure you might outspeed things in Trick room but that's not common enough to make Stall seem useful. It's detrimental, hands down.
This is a competitive list, so in game performance doesn't matter worth a damn. Also, Smokescreen, Sand-Attack Kinesis and friends are NOT banned; EVASION moves are banned, not ACCURACY moves. No one uses them because they suck is all. That's why it's D tier; there are situations where you could POSSIBLY have it kick into effect, it just comes up very, very uncommonly. That's why it's D tier; it might be useful once in a blue moon, but it's usually as if it didn't have it.
Yeah agreed, though I would like to point out as I usually do that Garchomp was not banned SOULY due to Sand Veil. Sand Veil was just the icing on the broken Garchomp cake. Anyway, that's not really important.
@DetroitLOLcat's list
I'll point out which of his changes I disagree with here.
Contrary: I'm not sure, most Pokemon get attacking moves that lower stats when used, and the ability to raise your stats by attacking with a powerful move is ridiculously power. Hell, people can and HAVE used SPINDA successfully in OU because of Contrary. THAT speaks volumes about it's S tiered-ness. Even moves like Close Combat that'd only boost defensives are amazing with this ability; 120 BP move and Cosmic Power combined? Holy hell, yes please!
Adaptability: No, I think this is A tier. It makes some Pokemon, such as Basculin in the lower tiers and Porygon-Z. It's not comparable to Tinted Lens, which only affects the attack when it's resisted; Adaptability is active all the time. It might not be high A tier, but it's still A tier.
Flash Fire: Hell no! This ability is SO A tier. It MAKES Heatran, and other Pokemon that get it benefit greatly for it. Fire is a very potent and common attacking type so being immune to it is a huge boon. The sheer EXISTENCE of Sun makes any immunity to sun A tier, because otherwise stuff like Chandelure and Darmanitan would just run over absolutely everything.
Guts: No, it DOES make Pokemon, it's not just a nice add on. The fact that Flame/Toxic Orb sets exist for every Pokemon that gets it speaks volumes; that passive 1.5x attack boost for just being on the field is massive. I mean, look at Heracross. It can OHKO/2HKO EVERYTHING IN OU with SD + Toxic Orb. That's saying something.
Harvest: Already expressed my views on this; until the pinch berries get released, this ability is solidly B or C tier. There just aren't enough good berries to make this ability anything else at the moment.
Lightning Rod: Again, NO NO NO. Any ability that gives you an extra immunity is damn game changing. One that also gives you an attack boost? HELLA GAME CHANGING. It just isn't given to enough Pokemon that can really use it (LOL Seaking, special attackers like Manectric that already resist Electric anyway, Pokemon already immune to electric like Marowak and Rhyperior, meaning they don't get the attack boost.) Don't forget that Volt-Switch is a staple of our current metagame, and that Thunder Spam is very common in Rain. Definitely still A tier.
Magnet Pull: I'm somewhat torn between moving Magnet Pull to S tier or moving Arena Trap to A tier. They both are very potent abilities. I'm starting to learn towards S tier for both now, seeing as if it weren't for Magnet Pull Magnezone would probably be UU or RU. Obviously, Arena Trap MAKES Dugtrio. So yeah, S tier for both I think.
Sturdy: No, it's A tier. A free focus sash is a BIG deal even with hazards and stuff around. It prevents things from guaranteed sweeping you if you can keep hazards off, which in this meta is definitely game changing fairly frequently. And then there's the fact that it's reusable if you can heal back to full health. It might not be high A tier, but I still think it IS A tier.
Volt Absorb: See Lightning Rod. Electric type attacks ARE common in this meta, and Volt-Switch alone makes any Electric Immunity a godsend.
Air Lock: With so many potent weather abilities, I think this deserves B tier. It just needs to be given to Pokemon that can do something BACK to weather abusers and aren't in Ubers is all.
Cloud Nine: See Air Lock
Marvel Scale: Already made my case for this being A tier, in particular due to its effectiveness when paired with Rest (which everything gets remember).
Multitype: In my opinion Multitype really depends on whether there'd be a cue to show what type the Pokemon is that has it or not. With Arceus we have visual cues, but what about other pokemon that could get it? If you knew what type it was, it'd stay right here. But if you didn't... it could very well have a case for S-tier.
Rough Skin: Yeah this and Iron barbs being in different tiers makes no sense. They're the same damn ability basically. B tier for both of them.
Static: I dunno, random paralysis is pretty damn useful when it does happen. It might not be high B tier, but I think that if Flame body belongs here, so does Static.
Frisk: Actually I agree with low B tier. The instant scout is damn nice, it's just that crappy Pokemon get it. I missed this last night b/c I was tired out of my mind >.<
Hustle: Again, don't know why I didn't say anything before. It might come with a big drawback, but a passive 1.5x boost is too good for this to be C tier.
Ice Body: I dunno about this one, Hail isn't quite as good as other weather conditions, though it is somewhat of a borderline case. I wouldn't raise it a tier myself but I won't complain if it does get raised.
Illusion: More inclined to A tier it myself, since it is what makes Zoroark even worth considering. Hard to use though so I dunno, maybe B tier isn't bad for it. C tier is definitely a bad spot for it though.
Insomnia: Still thinking this is A tier. If something actually GOOD god it we'd all be packing Insomnia users, because shit like Breloom exists. Sleep is crippling as all hell; you can't imagine how many times I've wished for a sleep immunity on my team. If you can't stomach A tier, yeah I suppose B tier is ok. I mean, it is outclassed a bit by Poison heal I suppose.
Justified: I dunno, anything that gives you a free attack boost is pretty nice. Sure Dark type moves aren't that common in OU, but they are around. Hydreigon and Tyranitar both use them fairly frequently. So C tier is where I think this belongs.
Klutz: OK, now that people have pointed out its merits to me I can see why this isn't F tier. But still. D tier is better. Sure it has some situational use, but most of the time you're out of an item. Not a good thing.
Mummy: Already have detailed why this deserves B tier. Abilties are very potent this generation and the ability to deactivate them temporarily is pretty damn cool. If only it lasted for the whole battle, this ability would be solid A tier material.
Normalize: Wait, what IS Normalize. *looks it up* OH. Wow. Ok, that is pretty bad. It means you get no coverage. Even if it makes everything STAB for you, it still means YOU HAVE NO COVERAGE. Unless someone posts an actual use for this, I see no reason for this to not be F tier.
Poison Point: Yeah D tier probably is better now that you mention it. I mean, I usually actually LIKE getting normal poisoned because it grants you immunity to worse status conditions. It can be a little hampering, but overall, not a great ability.
Poison Touch: See Poison Point.
Pressure: Now that you mention it I agree, it's very potent on defensive Pokemon, especially considering the popularity of 5 PP (8 PP max) moves. Not always useful, hence not A tier, but more so than C tier I think.
Rain Dish: I'd argue for A tier, since 12.5% passive healing PLUS leftovers lets you recover 18.75% of your HP a turn without doing anything. That's a LOT of health, and makes sub-stalling absolutely deadly. How this amazing ability ended up C tier I don't know.
Rock head: Yeah I suppose I agree with this one. A lot of recoil moves are very powerful, so the ability to use them freely without drawbacks is a pretty big deal. B tier for sure.
Scrappy: How did I miss this my first time through? Yes, definitely B tier, as being able to hit Ghost Types through their immunities is a big deal. Now imagine it being given to a rapid spinner... damn, it's almost A tier.
Shield Dust: No I think C tier is good for this. Sure protection from Scald and Serene Grace users is nice, but it's quite situational and most of the time you'll hardly notice it's there. High C tier, but probably not more than that.
Skill Link: NOOOO A tier! Or at least B tier! Multi-hit moves are BEASTLY powerful this generation. Definitely not C tier though!
Alright, that should cover it for now. I'll be back later...
Normalize exists for the sole purpose of giving Delcatty a Normal-type Thunder Wave. It's not quite F tier.
Shield Dust makes Jirachi cry, and Scald is common enough to warrant it's use. With Shield Dust, Thunder doesn't paralyze. Hurricane and DynamicPunch can't confuse. Fake Out doesn't cause flinch. No flinch or freeze hax whatsoever. Remember that time Gyarados flinched your counter with Waterfall and swept your team, or when Starmie froze you with ice beam, letting the opponent set up? Shield Dust prevents these scenarios. It's like a Magic Guard for added effects.
There's no way Shield Dust should be ranked alongside Inner Focus, much less below it. It does everything Inner Focus does and more. A tier.
Edit: It is hard to imagine which other pokes would get Shield Dust though. Volcarona is the only moth based Pokemon that doesn't get Shield Dust, which is called Moth Scales in jap. It might not get too much mileage out of Shield Dust with it's typing, but i think it'd be better than Flame Body.
Sorry. What I mean was weak to water.
Here it is, the first adjustments to the tier list. I will be explaining any shifts in the tier list that i make, and i will explain my point of view on the more controversial abilities that i do not shift, or don't shift as much as some would like. Before that though, i am planning on clarifying the tiers to better explain what defines each one, so that we as a community would be better equipped to create an effective tier list. If I get positive response for these new descriptions, I will implement them in a few hours. If I don’t get any feedback, I’ll implement them because I think they are better. Here are the new descriptions below.
S Tier- Abilities that are so good that the ability will often make otherwise unusable Pokémon viable.
A Tier- A Tier abilities are abilities that are great on their own merit, and don’t require specially tailored stat spreads or movepools to make them effective. These abilities can generally be slapped on any Pokémon and that Pokémon would be better for it.
B Tier- Abilities that are good but not as good as A Tier abilities either because they require a more customized movepool and stat spread to be effective or are just flat out just not as great as A tier abilities
C Tier- abilities have uses, but the effects aren’t gamebreaking and oftentimes not even game changing. These abilities may have some niche uses but there are superior options available.
D Tier- abilities which are so rarely useful that the Pokémon might as well not have one most of the time, but these abilities may come in handy once in a blue moon.
F Tier- abilities that truly have no competitive purpose in single battles or are downright detrimental to the Pokémon.
I think this is a more defined list. It makes the attributes of each tier clearer and more usable. I am not going to make an E+F tier divide. F Tier will house the useless and detrimental abilities. I know that its better to have a useless ability than a harmful one, but adding another tier would open up a huge can of worms. Some A Tier abilities are better than others, but we shouldn’t make another tier for the better A Tier abilities. It would just get confusing. I will trust that the smogon community is smart enough to figure out that run away is better than slow start and the like.
Now onto the actual edits to the tiers!
So those are the changes. they will be mimicked in the OP momentarily. i am also thinking about the best way to set up a voting system so we can get a finalized list not so skewed by my biases. Keep up the good work and keep the opinions coming
S Tier- Abilities that are so good that the ability will often make otherwise unusable Pokémon viable.
A Tier- A Tier abilities are abilities that are great on their own merit, and don’t require specially tailored stat spreads or movepools to make them effective. These abilities can generally be slapped on any Pokémon and that Pokémon would be better for it.
B Tier- Abilities that are good but not as good as A Tier abilities either because they require a more customized movepool and stat spread to be effective or are just flat out just not as great as A tier abilities
C Tier- abilities have uses, but the effects aren’t gamebreaking and oftentimes not even game changing. These abilities may have some niche uses but there are superior options available.
D Tier- abilities which are so rarely useful that the Pokémon might as well not have one most of the time, but these abilities may come in handy once in a blue moon.
F Tier- abilities that truly have no competitive purpose in single battles or are downright detrimental to the Pokémon.
I think this is a more defined list. It makes the attributes of each tier clearer and more usable. I am not going to make an E+F tier divide. F Tier will house the useless and detrimental abilities. I know that its better to have a useless ability than a harmful one, but adding another tier would open up a huge can of worms. Some A Tier abilities are better than others, but we shouldn’t make another tier for the better A Tier abilities. It would just get confusing. I will trust that the smogon community is smart enough to figure out that run away is better than slow start and the like.
Now onto the actual edits to the tiers!
So those are the changes. they will be mimicked in the OP momentarily. i am also thinking about the best way to set up a voting system so we can get a finalized list not so skewed by my biases. Keep up the good work and keep the opinions coming
No, I don't think we should be including contrived uses like that. You have to really work to make it not hurt you, which just shows why it deserves to be F. It's still bad in most situations.
It has no negative effect, and the positive effect is minor but still potentially useful. That's solid D tier.
That list looks much better already. I still have a nitpick, though:
Offensive teams would much prefer paralysis over poison; the reduced speed and chance for full paralysis means it's much easier to set up and sweep. Regular poison takes time to inflict meaningful damage, and offensive teams don't aim to stick around waiting. Poison Point honestly has pretty much zero practical uses.
Offensive teams would much prefer paralysis over poison; the reduced speed and chance for full paralysis means it's much easier to set up and sweep. Regular poison takes time to inflict meaningful damage, and offensive teams don't aim to stick around waiting. Poison Point honestly has pretty much zero practical uses.
I'm cool with a most of the changes but there are still a few that I feel don't belong where they are.
Flower Gift: True, it is better than Sand Force. But now that I think of it, I don't think Sand Force deserves A tier either. It only provides a small boost to two attacking types... that's not a lot. I think Flower Gift should be B tier, and maybe Sand Force should be as low as C. It just happens to be on a Pokemon that can use it really well; most Pokemon would have a hard time making meaningful use of it. B tier at most.
Sap Sipper: No no NO! It is A tier! Sure grass type attacks aren't as common but you're forgetting the plethora of potent grass type status moves there are out there. Leech Seed, Spore, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore are all very powerful, and being immune to them AND getting an attack boost is a big deal. There are a lot of common grass type attackers too, like Celebi, Virizon, Ferrothorn, anything that carries HP Grass, Rotom-C, Venusaur, Ninetails (energy ball and solarbeam are almost standard). It quite simply fits the definition too. ANYTHING benefits from it when it gets it, especially if its a physical attacker. It doesn't require you to tailor your sets or anything either. Clearly A rank.
Insomnia: It's not just Breloom and Venusaur. Politoed and Ninetails both frequently carry Hypnosis, and most grass types will run Sleep Powder. You'll occasionally see Hypnosis on things like Gengar as well. And let's not forget just how devastating Sleep is this generation. It might not be A tier, but B tier at the very least.
Rain Dish: Oops, thought it healed 1/8th, not 1/16th. Still, it's enough that it allows infinite Substitute + Protect stalling, a very potent ability when combined with damaging status. It might not be A tier, but B tier at least. You do need the right set to abuse it, but if you can abuse it, it adds a LOT of bulk to a Pokemon.
Also:
@Tetrinity
Yes they'd usually prefer paralysis, but when that's not an option poison is better than nothing for them. Think of it like Stealth Rock; it might not do much, but it's enough to turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and the like, which is actually quite appreciated by offense. I can see the use now, so yeah C tier is good for it.
Flower Gift: True, it is better than Sand Force. But now that I think of it, I don't think Sand Force deserves A tier either. It only provides a small boost to two attacking types... that's not a lot. I think Flower Gift should be B tier, and maybe Sand Force should be as low as C. It just happens to be on a Pokemon that can use it really well; most Pokemon would have a hard time making meaningful use of it. B tier at most.
Sap Sipper: No no NO! It is A tier! Sure grass type attacks aren't as common but you're forgetting the plethora of potent grass type status moves there are out there. Leech Seed, Spore, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore are all very powerful, and being immune to them AND getting an attack boost is a big deal. There are a lot of common grass type attackers too, like Celebi, Virizon, Ferrothorn, anything that carries HP Grass, Rotom-C, Venusaur, Ninetails (energy ball and solarbeam are almost standard). It quite simply fits the definition too. ANYTHING benefits from it when it gets it, especially if its a physical attacker. It doesn't require you to tailor your sets or anything either. Clearly A rank.
Insomnia: It's not just Breloom and Venusaur. Politoed and Ninetails both frequently carry Hypnosis, and most grass types will run Sleep Powder. You'll occasionally see Hypnosis on things like Gengar as well. And let's not forget just how devastating Sleep is this generation. It might not be A tier, but B tier at the very least.
Rain Dish: Oops, thought it healed 1/8th, not 1/16th. Still, it's enough that it allows infinite Substitute + Protect stalling, a very potent ability when combined with damaging status. It might not be A tier, but B tier at least. You do need the right set to abuse it, but if you can abuse it, it adds a LOT of bulk to a Pokemon.
Also:
@Tetrinity
Yes they'd usually prefer paralysis, but when that's not an option poison is better than nothing for them. Think of it like Stealth Rock; it might not do much, but it's enough to turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and the like, which is actually quite appreciated by offense. I can see the use now, so yeah C tier is good for it.
I would put Flower Gift on the same level as Sand Force, honestly. It's obvious that Flower Gift gives a greater boost than Sand Force does, but it's important to notice that they only work in their respective weathers. Sand is a better weather than Sun is in every tier in the game where auto-weather is allowed with the possible exception of Ubers, so Sand Force will intrinsically have more application than any Sun abusing ability will have. For this reason, I would balance Flower Gift's superior boosts with Sand Force's applicability and stick them both in the B tier.
I put Sap Sipper in the B tier, you can see my reasoning in my megapost. Grass isn't common enough to place in the A tier in my opinion.
Yes it is only two attacking types, but those two attacking types happen to pair up perfectly together and are used as standard coverage for Pokemon throughout all tiers. A free 30% boost is nothing to scoff at either, so I would argue to keep it within the B tier based on EdgeQuake's great coverage.
You still haven't moved Trace to A Tier. Like I said before, it's an extremely potent ability because it can simply copy other abilities on the switch in. Whether granting an additional immunity from Flash Fire/Volt Absorb/Levitate, weaking Salamence and Gyarados through a reflected Intimidate, or about 10 thousand other things (trapping Dugtrio, Multiscale walling, Prankster priority, etc), Trace is an amazing ability because of its sheer unpredictability and versatility.
I mean, both Download, which you have in A, and Trace are completely viable on Porygon2, Trace even being preferred in OU.
Drop Iron Barbs to B rank with Rough Skin, because they're the exact same thing. 12.5% more damage is nice, but it doesn't work on special moves, and doesn't really do anything if the opponent can just OHKO you.
Also, nothing much, but Tinted Lens retains the "It's not very effective" message. It just hits through that with double damage.
I mean, both Download, which you have in A, and Trace are completely viable on Porygon2, Trace even being preferred in OU.
Drop Iron Barbs to B rank with Rough Skin, because they're the exact same thing. 12.5% more damage is nice, but it doesn't work on special moves, and doesn't really do anything if the opponent can just OHKO you.
Also, nothing much, but Tinted Lens retains the "It's not very effective" message. It just hits through that with double damage.
Are there any pokémon out there that can truly take advantage of Zen Mode?
I'm trying to picture good mixed attackers but all the most common ones tend to lean heavily on the physical investment with a special coverage move, relying on good base stats and high BP moves.
Perhaps the only one I can think of that would prefer Zen Mode is Archeops.
I'm trying to picture good mixed attackers but all the most common ones tend to lean heavily on the physical investment with a special coverage move, relying on good base stats and high BP moves.
Perhaps the only one I can think of that would prefer Zen Mode is Archeops.
@ Detroitlolcat
In response to your four queries:
I think rain dish is in that awkward place between B tier and C Tier. B Tier is full of offensive abilities which we can’t really compare rain dish to. However, the defensive abilities in the tier (marvel scale and sap sipper) outclass rain dish by pure defensive merit. Furthermore, rain dish is whether reliant, which always lowers the usefulness and therefore the tier of the ability. In the C tier, Rain dish is clearly one of the best abilities, but it still has competition in pressure and wonder skin.all in all, I think it’s a good C tier ability. There are definitely far better options out there but rain dish is still useable, which is basically what abilities in the C tier should be like.
In the case of insomnia, I did some calculations and I discovered that sleep inducing moves are used on about 25% of teams. That means that 75 % of the time, insomnia is useless. Since sleep is such a powerful status, being able to block it completely will come in handy at time, but the rest of the time, it is worthless. An ability that does nothing more often than not does not a B tier ability make. C tier is perfect for insomnia considering how useful it can be and how often it is actually used.
Flower gift and Sand Power are both on the edge. They can move down to B or stay in A depending on a persons point of view. I believe they are A tier abilities, but if people seem to believe that they should go to B tier, I will probably go with it. or we could put it up to a vote in the future. Either way.
A grass immunity will just never be as good as a water, fire, or electric immunity. These three attack types are just flat out way more common even when considering support moves. The three provide great coverage ability. grass covers gastrodon- one poke. You won’t see these too much outside of stab and that’s why sap sipper should be B tier.
@ twins
Your right, trace can copy marvel scale, levitate, water absorb, and even wonder guard. But then, in that case, why wouldn’t you just take marvel scale and wonder guard over trace if you had that option. In fact, most of the time, when you trace an A or S tier ability, your better off just having that ability to begin with instead of trace. When you have an ability that doesn’t constantly change, you can build a strategy to use that ability to its max. you can’t do that with trace. True, there are some choice Pokémon you can counter like heatran, but is it really worth it? The reason Porygon2 uses trace is because its offensive options are pretty bad. A glass cannon would prefer mold breaker over multiscale, but multiscale is almost certainly the better ability on the whole. I put trace in the C tire because if it traces a worthwhile ability from a Pokémon, it is better off just having that ability permanently. If a man wanted to fly, his best option is to buy a parachute and go sky diving, but he is still not a bird. That is why I put trace where it is.
On a side note how do we want to treat zen mode and multitype. we need to get this straightened out before we can truly rank either ability.
In response to your four queries:
I think rain dish is in that awkward place between B tier and C Tier. B Tier is full of offensive abilities which we can’t really compare rain dish to. However, the defensive abilities in the tier (marvel scale and sap sipper) outclass rain dish by pure defensive merit. Furthermore, rain dish is whether reliant, which always lowers the usefulness and therefore the tier of the ability. In the C tier, Rain dish is clearly one of the best abilities, but it still has competition in pressure and wonder skin.all in all, I think it’s a good C tier ability. There are definitely far better options out there but rain dish is still useable, which is basically what abilities in the C tier should be like.
In the case of insomnia, I did some calculations and I discovered that sleep inducing moves are used on about 25% of teams. That means that 75 % of the time, insomnia is useless. Since sleep is such a powerful status, being able to block it completely will come in handy at time, but the rest of the time, it is worthless. An ability that does nothing more often than not does not a B tier ability make. C tier is perfect for insomnia considering how useful it can be and how often it is actually used.
Flower gift and Sand Power are both on the edge. They can move down to B or stay in A depending on a persons point of view. I believe they are A tier abilities, but if people seem to believe that they should go to B tier, I will probably go with it. or we could put it up to a vote in the future. Either way.
A grass immunity will just never be as good as a water, fire, or electric immunity. These three attack types are just flat out way more common even when considering support moves. The three provide great coverage ability. grass covers gastrodon- one poke. You won’t see these too much outside of stab and that’s why sap sipper should be B tier.
@ twins
Your right, trace can copy marvel scale, levitate, water absorb, and even wonder guard. But then, in that case, why wouldn’t you just take marvel scale and wonder guard over trace if you had that option. In fact, most of the time, when you trace an A or S tier ability, your better off just having that ability to begin with instead of trace. When you have an ability that doesn’t constantly change, you can build a strategy to use that ability to its max. you can’t do that with trace. True, there are some choice Pokémon you can counter like heatran, but is it really worth it? The reason Porygon2 uses trace is because its offensive options are pretty bad. A glass cannon would prefer mold breaker over multiscale, but multiscale is almost certainly the better ability on the whole. I put trace in the C tire because if it traces a worthwhile ability from a Pokémon, it is better off just having that ability permanently. If a man wanted to fly, his best option is to buy a parachute and go sky diving, but he is still not a bird. That is why I put trace where it is.
On a side note how do we want to treat zen mode and multitype. we need to get this straightened out before we can truly rank either ability.
You can build a strategy with Trace. It's not as easy as "throw Scizor in to counter half the metagame", but it is reliable enough to be a solid upper B rank ability. Why? Because you choose when to switch in. It's not like Colour Change with the opponent easily being able to work around it to his/her advantage. You have all the control.
You take Trace because of its versatility. It's every ability in one (pretty much). Now, on paper, that may not sound that good, but actually playing against Porygon2, and even Gardevoir, you can see what a useful ability it is.
Trace does not belong in C Tier with Poison Point and Limber. I may have been asking for too much in A Rank, but it definitely belongs in at least B Rank, because it can be S and A Rank abilities, on top of its versatility. It is better at times to have a permanent ability, which is why it shouldn't be A Rank, but B is the right place to put it.
I'm going to quote a bit of Mr Omgness' post here:
Now, he was specifically referring to Porygon2, but the strategies are still valid for other pokemon.
I agree that Trace should at LEAST be B rank. It is spectacular as a utility counter ability; It's not just Heatran that it helps agains. Any Pokemon with an immunity ability is likely to be screwed should a Trace Pokemon switch in, Natural cure provides temporary protect from status which is huge against the many Natural Cure using status inducers like Blissey, Chansey and Celebi. Intimidate is immediately turned on your opponent, and as Mr. Omgness said most Intimidate Pokemon are physical attackers. You can trace weather reliant moves as well, allowing you to screw with any weather with just one Pokemon. Other abilities such as Regenerator, Magic Bounce and Magic Guard are all spectacular to trace as well and can help you beat what you're switching in on. Overall, Trace is a pretty spectacular ability worthy of at least B ranking, if not A. It's just so anti-meta.
And for Sap Sipper, I'd like to quote the definition for A rank:
Sap sipper makes almost any Pokemon it's put on better (unless they normally get a high ranking A or S tier ability, and even then sometimes they benefit from it. For example, I'd take Sap Sipper Landorus over Sand Force on a non-sand team any day, and there's an argument for using Sap Sipper on Sand teams too). Sap sipper does not require specific stat spreads, movepool, etc. to be effective; an extra immunity is good no matter what gets it, and if you can use physical attacks, you can even take advantage of the attack boost.
So maybe it's not as effective as the other immunity granting abilities (though that's debatable seeing as Sap Sipper nuetralizes powerful status moves like Spore and Leech Seed). But that doesn't mean it has to be in a lower tier! It's still more effective than B tier abilities so it deserves to be A tier. Quite frankly, I think Sap Sipper is better than Moldbreaker and Moldbreaker is A tier. It might not be the highest A tier ability, but it's certainly not B tier in my books.
And for Sap Sipper, I'd like to quote the definition for A rank:
And now I'll quote the B rank definition:
Tell me now, which definition does Sap Sipper fit better? It doesn't matter if it's slightly less useful than the other immunity abilities remember; look at it in a vacuum.
Sap sipper makes almost any Pokemon it's put on better (unless they normally get a high ranking A or S tier ability, and even then sometimes they benefit from it. For example, I'd take Sap Sipper Landorus over Sand Force on a non-sand team any day, and there's an argument for using Sap Sipper on Sand teams too). Sap sipper does not require specific stat spreads, movepool, etc. to be effective; an extra immunity is good no matter what gets it, and if you can use physical attacks, you can even take advantage of the attack boost.
So maybe it's not as effective as the other immunity granting abilities (though that's debatable seeing as Sap Sipper nuetralizes powerful status moves like Spore and Leech Seed). But that doesn't mean it has to be in a lower tier! It's still more effective than B tier abilities so it deserves to be A tier. Quite frankly, I think Sap Sipper is better than Moldbreaker and Moldbreaker is A tier. It might not be the highest A tier ability, but it's certainly not B tier in my books.
after reading the arguments in their favor, both Trace and Sap sipper were moved into B and A tier respectively. You guys convinced me
Weather is a very influential ability in any game. All the weather-inducing abilities should be S-ranked because of that. It doesn't matter if the abusers are weak to another weather-type, the fact that a Pokemon can simply switch in and bring a weather with them that can greatly affect the outcome of the game, as it aids numerous teammates with weather-related abilities and gives advantages such as boosting or lowering the power of certain types of moves; this is most certainly logical reasoning to put all the weather-inducing abilities in the S-ranked tier.
I seem to be the only one who thinks snow warning is not an S tier ability, so I think I might be judging the ability too critically. I’ll move it up to S tier tomorrow unless there is a general outcry to keep it A tier.
As for normalize, I probably overrated it. where do you think I should move the ability D or F tier and why? i’ll make a decision after hearing all sides of the argument
As for normalize, I probably overrated it. where do you think I should move the ability D or F tier and why? i’ll make a decision after hearing all sides of the argument
I'm thinking D. It's like Color Change in that it can be good or bad (usually bad) depending on context, but unlike Color Change it isn't in your opponent's control.
Mummy is actually a pretty cool ability. Yamask and its' evo, Cofagrigus, are bulky mofos, so most physical hits aren't too dangerous for it unless it's a set up sweeper or something. Taking away Multiscale or Moxie away would be a huge boon, although it's easily remedied by simply switching out. I would count it as a C, because it can be useful in certain situations.
Also, as far as Normalize goes, I guess it's situational. If every single move is of the Normal type, then you could theoretically paralyze Ground types with T Wave, right? I would probably have a full support move pool, but it would be total Taunt bait. Low D tier, it could possibly be useful, if only for the T Wave that can nail Ground types.
Also, as far as Normalize goes, I guess it's situational. If every single move is of the Normal type, then you could theoretically paralyze Ground types with T Wave, right? I would probably have a full support move pool, but it would be total Taunt bait. Low D tier, it could possibly be useful, if only for the T Wave that can nail Ground types.