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November 2024 Viability Rankings Update
With both Thunder Wave and Porygon banned, the tier has undergone a rather drastic transformation! To reflect the new state of the tier, the viability ranking as well as the sample sets have been updated.
S Diglett Wailmer
A+ Abra Doduo Gastly Snubbull
A Anorith Elekid Trapinch
A- Chinchou Pineco Staryu Voltorb
B+ Bagon Cacnea Houndour Ponyta
B Cubone Duskull Exeggcute Koffing Lileep Magnemite
B- Magby Horsea
C Larvitar
Tiering Council Announcement Shing and naere have been added to the tiering council. Both players are accomplished members of the ADV LC community and I look forward to having their input on tiering matters.
I'll comment on this new VR mainly due to how drastic the changes in the meta have been and want to share my personal thoughts.
1 :
A- ->B
I think Chinchou has only been impacted negatively by the 2 bans, and to a great extent. Chinchou lost its main way of threatening opposing Pokemon with the Thunder Wave ban, meaning that much more Pokemon that aren't threatened by Chinchou offensively have a much better time dealing with it. The ban of Porygon removes the best check to Chinchou's main problem, Diglett. Without Porygon, Diglett switches in very freely and can OHKO it without much issue, while Chinchou can run an Endure Salac Berry set, there's a probable chance that this will backfire horribly, because if the Diglett isn't Choice Band, it can simply Substitute, OHKO Chinchou, then have a Substitute up for the next turn. I think if Salac Endure Chinchou becomes more popular, so will Sub Liechi Berry Diglett, meaning Chinchou's means of defense become even more limited. Outside of Diglett, it still holds its own pretty well but just doesn't have the 100% accurate crippling move with one immunity that Chinchou hits super effectively with its other STAB.
2 :
B -> A
Duskull is the ultimate supporting Pokemon and I think that alone is enough to grant it a good spot in the meta. Duskull is an incredible physical wall and I think that is extremely valuable due to just how powerful physical attackers are in this meta (Doduo, Cubone, Diglett, etc.) and how hard it is to find otherwise switchins. While most of the aforementioned Pokemon run HP Ghost to hit it, it survives all of them, and non particularly want to stay in on it. With enough special attack investment Duskull can OHKO Doduo and Diglett with Ice Beam, and it also threatens Cubone with it, considering it can't run Sitrus Berry. Duskull's main trait is its access to Memento, a free pivot move that halves your opponents attacking stats is incredibly useful considering how strong setup is now, meaning Duskull can enable a lot of Pokemon like Bagon to just take games then and there unless your opponent has a specific tech to counter it. It can also keep itself alive with Thief while stealing other Pokemon's items and can slow down other Pokemon with Icy Wind, Duskull is an incredible enabler of other Pokemon.
3 :
B- -> B+
Horsea is pretty great I think. Its main problem is its miserable bulk, but I have just the solution. Invest into bulk. The sample set is invested into speed and I don't see the particular point in that. (I was actually going to make this a post of its own). It says to outspeed Larvitar and Cubone, but the caveat with that is that Horsea lives all of Larvitar's unboosted moves with bulk investment, and outspeeds it at +1 with Swift Swim, even with no speed investment, and Cubone's only move that it typically runs which OHKOs bulky Horsea is Bonemerang, in that case, switch to a Doduo, then revenge kill the Cubone, this is decently consistent, and even if the Cubone predicts this, you can switch to another revenge killer. With bulk it survives plenty of attacks that allow it to set up the rain and wreak havoc (once Chinchou is removed of course.). This kinda makes up for Horsea's problem, though I still acknowledge its pretty frail with its checks.
4 :
C -> B-
I think Bagon is better than Larvitar, but I think Larvitar shouldn't be ranked this low. They fulfill the same purpose but I think Larvitar has 2 main things over Bagon. Larvitar has actual STAB moves it can use in Earthquake and Rock Slide, unlike Bagon which is limited to Dragon STAB, which is special and doesn't have many good moves tied to it. Larvitar's main trait is its access to Guts, meaning it can switch in on Will-o-Wisps from Duskull and threaten it in return with HP Ghost, considering Larvitar also has an attack boost, while this doesn't outright oneshot Duskull, Duskull can't one shot Larvitar in return and Larvitar outspeeds it, which means it can use Dragon Dance to increase its attack even further, and if Duskull doesn't press Icy Wind (which is highly unlikely), Larvitar can threaten it then sweep the rest of the opponent's team with its Quick Attack resistance and Guts Boosted, STAB Boosted, +1 attack moves. Even if Duskull does press Icy Wind, Larvitar still threatens it with HP Ghost by outspeeding it. Bagon's less impactful weaknesses, good resistances, and slightly higher attack stat does indeed make it better, I still think Larvitar can hold its own.
5 :
Unranked -> B+
Hear me out here. I think Bellsprout is a better sun abuser than Exeggcute. Bellsprout is slightly frailer than Exeggcute, but it has much better offensive stats and the same speed stat. Bellsprout is a sun abuser who can OHKO Houndour with Sludge Bomb (Although it requires attack investment and a Poison Barb.) meaning that one of sun's most common walls can be handled easily. Bellsprout is walled by Gastly, unlike Exeggcute, but Gastly has its own hard check in Houndour, which can be a sun abuser of its own. Bellsprout in general is simply a much more offensive and threatening sun abuser, while Exeggcute is more bulky, it is walled by Houndour, which can use Endure if it explodes, then proceed to abuse the sun set up by Exeggcute with a speed boost (Well Doduo counters this but Doduo counters everything). While Bellsprout is much less bulky, meaning it has less chances to set up the sun, it is a much better abuser of the sun which can be set up by a teammate (most likely Duskull as it can Sunny Day into Memento or simply Memento letting Bellsprout set up sun). I think this overall leads to Bellsprout being a situationally very impactful Pokemon in a similar, but better (imo) manner to Exeggcute.
I'll comment on this new VR mainly due to how drastic the changes in the meta have been and want to share my personal thoughts.
1 : View attachment 688502A- -> B I think Chinchou has only been impacted negatively by the 2 bans, and to a great extent. Chinchou lost its main way of threatening opposing Pokemon with the Thunder Wave ban, meaning that much more Pokemon that aren't threatened by Chinchou offensively have a much better time dealing with it. The ban of Porygon removes the best check to Chinchou's main problem, Diglett. Without Porygon, Diglett switches in very freely and can OHKO it without much issue, while Chinchou can run an Endure Salac Berry set, there's a probable chance that this will backfire horribly, because if the Diglett isn't Choice Band, it can simply Substitute, OHKO Chinchou, then have a Substitute up for the next turn. I think if Salac Endure Chinchou becomes more popular, so will Sub Liechi Berry Diglett, meaning Chinchou's means of defense become even more limited. Outside of Diglett, it still holds its own pretty well but just doesn't have the 100% accurate crippling move with one immunity that Chinchou hits super effectively with its other STAB.
2 : View attachment 688503B-> A Duskull is the ultimate supporting Pokemon and I think that alone is enough to grant it a good spot in the meta. Duskull is an incredible physical wall and I think that is extremely valuable due to just how powerful physical attackers are in this meta (Doduo, Cubone, Diglett, etc.) and how hard it is to find otherwise switchins. While most of the aforementioned Pokemon run HP Ghost to hit it, it survives all of them, and non particularly want to stay in on it. With enough special attack investment Duskull can OHKO Doduo and Diglett with Ice Beam, and it also threatens Cubone with it, considering it can't run Sitrus Berry. Duskull's main trait is its access to Memento, a free pivot move that halves your opponents attacking stats is incredibly useful considering how strong setup is now, meaning Duskull can enable a lot of Pokemon like Bagon to just take games then and there unless your opponent has a specific tech to counter it. It can also keep itself alive with Thief while stealing other Pokemon's items and can slow down other Pokemon with Icy Wind, Duskull is an incredible enabler of other Pokemon. 3 : View attachment 688505B- -> B+ Horsea is pretty great I think. Its main problem is its miserable bulk, but I have just the solution. Invest into bulk. The sample set is invested into speed and I don't see the particular point in that. (I was actually going to make this a post of its own). It says to outspeed Larvitar and Cubone, but the caveat with that is that Horsea lives all of Larvitar's unboosted moves with bulk investment, and outspeeds it at +1 with Swift Swim, even with no speed investment, and Cubone's only move that it typically runs which OHKOs bulky Horsea is Bonemerang, in that case, switch to a Doduo, then revenge kill the Cubone, this is decently consistent, and even if the Cubone predicts this, you can switch to another revenge killer. With bulk it survives plenty of attacks that allow it to set up the rain and wreak havoc (once Chinchou is removed of course.). This kinda makes up for Horsea's problem, though I still acknowledge its pretty frail with its checks.
4 : View attachment 688511C-> B I think Bagon is better than Larvitar, but I think Larvitar shouldn't be ranked this low. They fulfill the same purpose but I think Larvitar has 2 main things over Bagon. Larvitar has actual STAB moves it can use in Earthquake and Rock Slide, unlike Bagon which is limited to Dragon STAB, which is special and doesn't have many good moves tied to it. Larvitar's main trait is its access to Guts, meaning it can switch in on Will-o-Wisps from Duskull and threaten it in return with HP Ghost, considering Larvitar also has an attack boost, while this doesn't outright oneshot Duskull, Duskull can't one shot Larvitar in return and Larvitar outspeeds it, which means it can use Dragon Dance to increase its attack even further, and if Duskull doesn't press Icy Wind (which is highly unlikely), Larvitar can threaten it then sweep the rest of the opponent's team with its Quick Attack resistance and Guts Boosted, STAB Boosted, +1 attack moves. Even if Duskull does press Icy Wind, Larvitar still threatens it with HP Ghost by outspeeding it. Bagon's less impactful weaknesses, good resistances, and slightly higher attack stat does indeed make it better, I still think Larvitar can hold its own.
5 : View attachment 688514Unranked -> B+ Hear me out here. I think Bellsprout is a better sun abuser than Exeggcute. Bellsprout is slightly frailer than Exeggcute, but it has much better offensive stats and the same speed stat. Bellsprout is a sun abuser who can OHKO Houndour with Sludge Bomb (Although it requires attack investment and a Poison Barb.) meaning that one of sun's most common walls can be handled easily. Bellsprout is walled by Gastly, unlike Exeggcute, but Gastly has its own hard check in Houndour, which can be a sun abuser of its own. Bellsprout in general is simply a much more offensive and threatening sun abuser, while Exeggcute is more bulky, it is walled by Houndour, which can use Endure if it explodes, then proceed to abuse the sun set up by Exeggcute with a speed boost (Well Doduo counters this but Doduo counters everything). While Bellsprout is much less bulky, meaning it has less chances to set up the sun, it is a much better abuser of the sun which can be set up by a teammate (most likely Duskull as it can Sunny Day into Memento or simply Memento letting Bellsprout set up sun). I think this overall leads to Bellsprout being a situationally very impactful Pokemon in a similar, but better (imo) manner to Exeggcute.
I'll comment on this new VR mainly due to how drastic the changes in the meta have been and want to share my personal thoughts.
1 : View attachment 688502A- ->B
I think Chinchou has only been impacted negatively by the 2 bans, and to a great extent. Chinchou lost its main way of threatening opposing Pokemon with the Thunder Wave ban, meaning that much more Pokemon that aren't threatened by Chinchou offensively have a much better time dealing with it. The ban of Porygon removes the best check to Chinchou's main problem, Diglett. Without Porygon, Diglett switches in very freely and can OHKO it without much issue, while Chinchou can run an Endure Salac Berry set, there's a probable chance that this will backfire horribly, because if the Diglett isn't Choice Band, it can simply Substitute, OHKO Chinchou, then have a Substitute up for the next turn. I think if Salac Endure Chinchou becomes more popular, so will Sub Liechi Berry Diglett, meaning Chinchou's means of defense become even more limited. Outside of Diglett, it still holds its own pretty well but just doesn't have the 100% accurate crippling move with one immunity that Chinchou hits super effectively with its other STAB.
I know I'm a little bit of a Chinchou merchant, but I do think it's important to understand Chinchou's role in the current meta is. With how prevalent Spout/Icy Wind/HP Grass Wailmer is and how few things are actually willing to switch in, Chinchou can act as an offensive spark plug due to nothing wanting to deal with it's sub 3 attacks set. While it's electric immunity is a great trait to have, it's never the main appeal. If you want to deal with electrics reliably, you're generally going to trap them. In the event of a trapper bait team which stacks up on multiple electric types, it's helpful but not super reliable due to pokemon like Voltorb and Elekid frequently carrying HP Grass.
On the topic of electrics, I think Magnemite is woefully underrated at the moment. While T-Wave ban without a doubt makes it worse and harder to pilot, its innate positive qualities are still intact. It's still a swiss army knife of a physical check, water panic check at full health (bolstered when putting minimal investment into SpDef, allowing you to live Hydro from Staryu and Chinchou comfortably), and lastly serving as an Abra check, being able to comfortably take it's boosted Psychics. It's still susceptible to being trapped, but that was an issue magnemite has always had, and in a metagame where defensive role compression is significantly more important due to losing the all purpose defensive porygon, Magnemite with Metal Sound or Toxic in it's last slot can provide a team with a lot of value.
I made a Taillow analysis cause wynaut. (Don't use Taillow it sucks pretty bad)
Taillow
Overview :
Taillow’s great speed tier and good attack stat paired with STAB Double-Edge allow it to outspeed key threats such as Doduo and Anortih and hit them in return. Its typing in Normal/Flying gives it a valuable STAB type in Normal, being able to throw out strong moves with a limited amount of resistances, and the Flying type gives it an immunity to Ground letting it switch in easier and giving it another STAB option. Its access to Guts lets it bait Will-o-Wisps from Duskull and become a potent threat. Taillow’s biggest shortcoming is its low attack, that even with a Choice Band, falls short of KO’ng things such as Anorith, Cubone, and Gastly. Taillow is also mostly outclassed by Doduo, meaning it is typically better to use Doduo instead of it, it’s also niche but justified to run Doduo and Taillow together as a double Flying core, being the best double Flying core composition in the tier (That doesn’t mean the core is necessarily good though).
Choice Band :
Move 1 : Double Edge Item : Choice Band
Move 2 : Quick Attack Ability : Guts
Move 3 : Aerial Ace Nature : Jolly
Move 4 : Hidden Power Ghost Level : 5
EVs : 36 HP, 236 Atk, 236 Spe
This set serves to act as a budget Doduo with a higher speed stat which allows it to threaten Pokemon like Doduo, Chinchou, and Bagon with STAB Double Edge, which is also a generally strong move. Aerial Ace is another STAB option which serves as a safer move to throw out on weakened opponents in case they have a Pokemon that resists or is immune to Normal, such as Gastly, meaning there is less risk in using Aerial Ace instead of Double Edge. Quick Attack is used for priority to finish off weakened opponents that Taillow underspeeds or speed ties with such as Abra, Diglett, and Elekid. Hidden Power Ghost is used to threaten Gastly, and with a Guts boost, it can also threaten a 30% chance to OHKO Duskull and threatens a 100% chance to OHKO Duskull with a little bit of chip. This set can switch in on Thiefs from opposing Pokemon forcing them to use a Choice Band, which is typically unfavorable on a Pokemon that would be running Thief.
Other Options :
Taillow can run a Liechi Berry and Substitute to increase its attack stat without being locked into a move by Choice Band, which provides it some flexibility, but this set is typically picked off too easily by Pokemon like Doduo, Elekid, Voltorb, and Diglett.
Checks and Counters :
Elekid/Voltorb : Both Pokemon in question can outspeed Taillow and OHKO it with Thunderbolt while also threatening a chance to paralyze with their ability of Static.
Diglett : Diglett outspeeds Taillow and can OHKO it with Rock Slide. Taillow can’t do much against this.
Larvitar : Larvitar tanks all of Taillow’s moves including HP Grass which allows Larvitar to set up a Dragon Dance safely and under the right conditions, take the game right there.
Anorith : Anorith tanks all of Taillow’s non Guts boosted attacks and proceeds to faint it with Rock Blast, or Swords Dance and then faint it.
(srry abt the formatting being bad in spots idk how to fix it tbh)
All the samples are outdated so screw it I made 2 of my own. (These prolly won't be actual samples but eh, who cares.) (This was originally gonna be 1 post but I yapped too much so now it's 2. I'll post the 2nd one whenever.)
Team 1 : Boomspam. https://pokepast.es/e32a6e2c31388383
I'll go one by one with the mons then talk about in the team in general.
The Lead : Wailmer is a standard lead here with a very standard set, Water Spout for incredible burst damage, HP Grass for coverage against Pokemon like Chinchou (don't try to use Wailmer against Chinchou unless it's chipped tho). This Wailmer is running offensive EVs with a Timid nature mainly to (typically) beat other Wailmer. The Timid nature is used instead of Modest to outspeed other Wailmer, letting it typically win the mirror match (sometimes I think). Icy Wind is used to slow down opposing Pokemon which can prime other Pokemon on the team to threaten the slowed down Pokemon or set up on it. Self-destruct is a last resort move that can OHKO most mons and can also bait in Gastly.
The Spirit Sealer : This is a boomspam team. The main premise is using Normal type moves. The Ghosts Gastly and Duskull are immune to said Normal type moves. Houndour is mainly used on Duskull and Gastly as mentioned earlier. Houndour doesn't run Pursuit in this set, as Gastlys will typically attack, *expecting* Pursuit, effectively giving Houndour 5 moves the opponent has to play around until all its moves are revealed. Instead it runs Substitute which can set up on Duskull while Duskull is forced to either switch out, hit Houndour with a move that doesn't break its Substitute, or use Memento which fails on Substitute. Fire Blast and HP Grass are standard STAB and coverage moves Houndour runs respectively. Houndour runs Substitute so it can activate a Salac Berry boosting its speed to outrun every non-boosted Pokemon in the tier, paired with its high special attack stat, lets Houndour be a potent threat and lure in Pokemon like Doduo which can be cleaned up other ways.
Yep, It's a Doduo : Doduo is just an incredible general Pokemon and mainly serves to take out or force out Pokemon that other Pokemon in the team can't handle without taking massive chip, losing their berry, or fainting, (or just can't handle the opposing mon at all). It runs the standard Choice Band set. I guess it can use Quick Attack to stop Salac sweepers.idk man it's a Doduo what new things am I supposed to say about it?
The Wall (And Diglett Counter) : Koffing serves as a general switch in that can wall a lot of Pokemon. It mainly serves as a support Pokemon with Thief meaning it can steal Sitrus Berries after it has consumed its own, increasing its survivability and weakening the opponent's team. Sludge Bomb is a generally STAB move that can hit things like Cacnea. Koffing's main role is as a Diglett and Trapinch counter. Both of the aforementioned can't hit Koffing for much while Koffing hits them in return with HP Water. Koffing can also explode while outspeeding bulky Wailmer and being bulky enough to take most attacks from other Pokemon, meaning it can boom pretty consistently, and potentially lure in Gastly/Duskull for Houndour to then clean up.
The Fast Bomb : Gastly serves as the fastest exploder in the team. It has Explosion (Yeah). It has Thunderbolt and Psychic which can hit a lot of Pokemon for at least neutral damage, letting it cover a lot of things, and for the things that aren't covered by the aforementioned coverage moves, Gastly can explode. Gastly can use Endure with a Salac Berry to increase its speed even further and act as a counter to setup sweepers such as Exeggcute and Bagon, being able to use Endure on them, live on 1 HP, activate the Salac Berry then proceed to outspeed the opposing Pokemon then explode. Gastly can absorb opposing explosions for absolutely free and can also lure in Abra, letting the user switch into Houndour and set up a Substitute on Abra or hit it hard with Crunch.
The Photosynthesis Lover : Exeggcute serves as a sun abuser and win condition to the team. It's invested into bulk letting it have more opportunities to set up the sun and proceed to try to sweep. The moveset and item don't need much explanation, having Solar Beam and Psychic as STAB moves, Solar Beam to abuse in the sun, and Explosion as a get out of jail free card if a Pokemon that walls it switches in. It has a Timid nature to reach the benchmark of 11 speed to get a speed stat of 22 in the sun, outspeeding every non-boosted Pokemon while also outspeeding+1 Larvitar and Bagon.
This team works together with many Explosion users to OHKO threats with support from Houndour to take care of Abra and the 2 Ghosts (sorry Shuppet) each used together to either faint the opponent's team right there or prime Pokemon like Doduo and Exeggcute to then sweep or clean up the game.
I played this team against Naere and Shing and won both times, just as a showcase of its capabilities. (Granted I had some luck against Naere so it counts a little bit less.)
LCBC Signups Now Open
I am pleased to announce the player signups for LCBC (Little Cup Big Cup) are now open. LCBC is a new team tour hosted in the LC section of the forum and features a custom avatar prize! Similar to LPL, LCBC features many generations of Little Cup (from ADV to SV) as well as LC UU and Doubles LC! The custom avatar prize is sure to bring out some fierce competitiors, so if you're looking for a chance to prove you're a top ADV LC player, this is it!
To sign up for LCBC, post in the player signups thread. Sign ups will close in roughly 2 weeks.
With the ROA samples eventually needing updates figured I'd post some of the teams I used in Levipl. If EVs arent optimized, someone smarter can go and fix them. Anything else I used was whatever someone posted in this thread earlier.
This was my prep every week below. Thank you bleahey for your wisdom, lol (ty for picking up and envy too if they see this).
Thoughts on meta:
This was the first time I played adv lc in a team tour and I signed up for dpp too in case I crashed out in adv lc (realistically did) or someone in dpp crashed out (almost), whichever took priority. While the meta improved with the Porygon ban (slightly) throughout the weeks I didn't have high hopes against both mainers and me being washed at this game, but I managed what I could. While the meta feels a bit more fun than Mickey mouse current DPP, I don't find the format as fun or great as others have. I believe Sitrus Berry and Arena Trap should be banned or looked at in the format. Sitrus Berry is too centralizing making entire gameplans and lines focused on how you maintain or activate your sitrus berry (rando thief, meme subs, etc.) while Arena Trap is flat out broken via Dug/Trapinch, especially when you get an ADV crit that throws whatever game plan you had out the window. Trap also facilitates other elements like Doduo, Abra, Wailmer, etc. Both these elements make the format feel pretty non-interactive imo. Abra is also broken in the format, a mon that has very few good switch ins that don't keel over to Crit, Psychic SpDef drop, or CM, but unfortunately I don't think this will sell in the current climate. I would remove at least the first two things mentioned or run some sort of tour without those two things to trial it.
If the above two bans don't go through bring back Porygon and ban Recycle unironically.
with lpl concluded i figured i can give my thoughts on the meta as it was my first time playing adv lc after twave/porygon bans. i mainly want to talk about pinch berry strats here because i feel that they havent been explored a lot in the current meta. in short, adv compared to future gens has much fewer prevalent tools to deal with these pinch berry strats. theres no hippopotas/snover to set sand/hail, stealth rocks dont exist and spikes are very limited in distibution, and there are very few priority moves.
the biggest threats to these strats doduo and trapinch as they run quick attack and should ideally be removed before attempting any pinch berry strat. doduo can wear itself down from double edges and is checked by most 19 or 20 speed mons, meanwhile an electric can often bait trapinch to come in and at least wear it down if not allow for a double into a mon like wailmer. a bulky houndour can also pursuit trap doduo, as well as gastly who is immune to flail/reversal. boom is also threatening to this strategy, especially to mons that run a salac berry since the opponent can blow up on a sub to deny getting u the salac boost and revenge with a teammate, particularly with diglett, though running endure can provide a means to avoid the revenge kill if u bank on them not using sub. multihit moves such as anorith rock blast also break thru sub which can be annoying for these strats.
the ideal mons for utilising a pinch berry strat are mons with flail/reversal or mons with a ability that boosts their stab (like the ones starters have / swarm), and they should aim to hit at least 21 speed. flail/reversal mons have to be very precise and avoid taking any chip damage since they wanna sub down to 1hp for the highest bp possible.
is an elite mon already and that only makes its liechi set even more threatening. doduo is outspeeding everything after an agility and can threaten to drop nearly everything after activating liechi and being on 1hp. doduo having agility and a spikes/dig immunity probably makes it the most threatening pinch sweeper here, especially with the amount of switches it can force as people play around the very common band set.
has solid speed for a salac set and gets stab on reversal which is pretty nice against something like snubbull or anorith. it can also run bulk up to increase its damage output, though endure makes the set more consistent, especially if paired with another pinch sweeper to function as a cleaner.
unfortunately does not have agility in this gen, so it will have to opt for a sd salac set with flail. the lower speed makes it more exploitable, but krabbys rly high attack means its flail deals about the same damage as liechi doduo and it can run hp steel over ghost to ohko gastly after an sd, allowing it to hit anorith whos resistant to flail.
if youve seen a shing replay in the past few weeks then u know this mon is real. overgrow is great and this mon has agility meaning it can run petaya. grass stab is honestly really nice in this metagame since a lot of the top meta threats are weak to grass and theres a surprising lack of resists to it. unfort the grass stab is likely going to be giga drain since youd likely want hp ice to hit bagon, though you could perhaps run crunch for gastly and just run hp grass for stronger stab.
frankly i havent seen this in tours yet and havent got to try it yet but charmander has dragon dance meaning it can run petaya with blaze, and its using a much stronger stab move in either fire blast or flamethrower; flamethrower prob gets the job done on most things anyways tho unless u want to try ohko bagon. hp grass deals with staryu but you definitely need to get rid of wailmer, chinchou and opposing fire types (houndour/ponyta) beforehand, such as forcing wailmer to boom in some way and pairing with diglett. surprisingly analogous to charizard in ou prior to its mixed set gaining popularity.
now this is kind of a meme but its one of only two mons with swarm in the meta (the other is ledyba lol). it has agility, a decent attack and workable speed stat, and bug is a surprisingly not bad offensive type in the meta. youd run signal beam with a hp like ghost to hit gastly, but it can only rly set up on specific mons as its poor bulk means most mons can ohko it without going out of their way to
theres more mons i could talk about. gets to use a 200bp flail due to its base hp and has a workable speed stat for salac, but it doesnt have a way to boost attack and flail is unstab meaning doduos flail is gonna deal more damage anyways. is similar though it has access to sd, but tbh it runs flail and eq then it cant hit gastly at all, and doduo/mankey is just stronger than it. i do think these strats overall have a ton of potential despite the common counterplay options to it.
Here's my personal viability rankings because I have too much free time.
Each tier will have their own explanations for each Pokemon. The Pokemon are in order of my perceived viability of them from left to right.
I think Wailmer is the best Pokemon in the metagame. It has good bulk which is hard to come by in this meta, it has good offensive stats, and it has great set variety. Wailmer can counter its counters by using specific sets, meaning it is hard to predict. For example, Magnemite can be counetered by offensive Wailmer, Elekid is countered by bulky Wailmer, Cubone is countered by physically defensive Wailmer or offensive Wailmer. Wailmer can act as an explosive offensive threat with Water Spout and Self-Destruct (lol). Wailmer can use Icy Wind to slow down opposing Pokemon for its teammates or to punish switchins. It's overall just really good, and doesn't have many checks. Wailmer is indeed countered by Choice Band Doduo, but physically defensive Wailmer typically wins the matchup, and the incoming Double Edge is very predictable.
Now Diglett. Diglett keeps so many threatening Pokemon in check, and even outside of its plentiful great matchups, Diglett works as a great offensive Pokemon due to its high speed, so high in fact it's the highest in the tier, only tied with Voltorb and Elekid, which Diglett will win against if it wins the speed tie, or simply runs specially defensive. Diglett keeps so many viable Pokemon in check such as *Abra, *Staryu, Magnemite, Houndour, Chinchou, Ponyta, and more. (Keep in mind some Abra such as Barrier or Reflect can beat Diglett, and to beat Staryu Diglett needs an attack boost, meaning it has to reveal that it's Choice Band or Liechi Berry). Diglett's set variety between Choice Band, Liechi Berry, specially defensive, or more niche options such as weather setting forces the opponent to play much more carefully and potentially play around threats that aren't there. Oh yeah, Arena Trap. Arena Trap means no Pokemon that lose against Diglett can safely be used unless Diglett has been removed, this eases pressure on Diglett's teammates, and if one of said Pokemon that lose to Diglett is used, Diglett can nab a free KO right there. Hell, a big part of why Trapinch is so viable is because of how good Diglett is. Diglett has its counters though, most notably Trapinch and Snubbull.
Next I have Abra. Abra having the highest special attack stat in the tier and good coverage makes it an incredible offensive threat paired with its great speed tier, only outsped by Diglett and the Electrics. Abra has some of the most set variety in the tier, and in a metagame as fast and frail as ADV LC, this is incredibly valuable. Abra can run Calm Mind to make it one of the strongest Pokemon in the game, it can run screens to support its teammates, it can run Barrier to fix its Diglett matchup, and there's probably more. This unpredictability is extremely valuable and will typically force the opponent to make an effort to reveal Abra's set, or simply get caught by the surprise factor and go into a disadvantageous position. It is countered by Diglett, but as mentioned before, you can catch Diglett by surprise with Barrier, and typically win the matchup. Keep in mind you can't always run Barrier though, so Diglett counters (most) Abra. That's about it. Abra is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the meta with a ton of tools at its disposal to catch the opponent off guard.
For the last of S I have Snubbull. Snubbull is an incredible bulky attacker in the metagame. It has a great defensive profile with good physical defense and Intimidate, meaning it checks great physical attackers such as Doduo, Bagon, and Diglett. Snubbull has lower special defense, but it can partly rememdy this issue by investing into special defense. Snubbull also has a great attack stat and perfect coverage for a physical attacker. Great Normal STAB, Shadow Ball to hit Gastly and Duskull, and Earthquake to hit Electric and Fire types. Snubbull is overall just a great offensive threat with a great defensive profile and good defensive utility with Intimidate.
Now I have Elekid. Elekid is the fastest Pokemon in the tier, only tied with Diglett and Voltorb. Elekid can utilize this incredible speed tier to act as a good offensive threat. Elekid has great coverage in the elemental punches and Psychic, meaning Elekid isn't exactly lacking when it comes to hitting things Electric STAB can't take care of. That's about it for Elekid's pros. Don't underestimate it though, these pros are very good. The ability to outspeed every Pokemon while throwing out decently strong moves is invaluable in this metagame. Elekid has its flaws however. Sometimes its power is a bit lacking, and it's typically too frail to make up for that. This issue is slightly remedied by Spikes, but it is difficult to get as many layers of Spikes Elekid needs and Spikes don't particularly fit on any one team. That's mainly it.
Next I have Doduo. Doduo is just a nuke. It can kill almost everything it touches, especially with Choice Band. Outside of just fainting everything it touches, Doduo has its counters, mainly the 19 and 20 speeders that outspeed it. Doduo is pretty frail, so it can't really afford to get hit. I really don't know what to say it's Doduo.
For the last of A+, I have Duskull. Seeing this Pokemon so high up is a little strange right? I've yapped before on why I think Duskull is so good. It is one of or arguably the best supporting Pokemon in the meta, and those are hard to come by. Its most notable trait is access to Memento. A pivot move that debilitates the opposing Pokemon? Of course that's incredible considering how strong setup Pokemon like Bagon and Abra are. Duskull has much more supporting moves at its disposal. Duskull can use Icy Wind to slow down opposing Pokemon, priming its teammates to finish off said slowed down Pokemon. It can use the weather setting moves Sunny Day and Rain Dance to support its weather abusing teammates, and there's probably more I'm missing. Duskull isn't exactly static either. With Shadow Ball it can throw out STAB damage and threaten Abra, and with enough special attack investment it can threaten Doduo. On that topic, Duskull is a great Doduo counter. It tanks all of Doduo's moves, and can threaten it with Will-o-Wisp, with enough special attack investment, OHKO it with Ice Beam, or use Icy Wind to do decent damage and slow Doduo down.
Starting A tier I have Pineco. Pineco is the best Spikes setter in the meta. It is pretty bulky and has decent matchups in the lead metagame, meaning it can set up Spikes very early within a game. There is also the scarcity of Rapid Spin, meaning the Spikes set up will typically stay for the whole game. Pineco has the rarely distributed Rapid Spin, meaning it can get Spikes off the user's side of the field. Pineco most notably gets access to Explosion. Pineco can use Explosion as a pivot move which typically OHKOs the opposing Pokemon, and allows one of Pineco's teammates to switch in without issue, keeping up momentum, and allowing Spikes abusers to switch in freely. Spikes are valuable to fast Pokemon like Elekid and Diglett, as the chip damage from Spikes lets them pick up KOs easier while outspeeding most of the metagame. Pineco does have a bad matchup against Doduo however, and can sometimes be static, allowing Pokemon to set up on it for free.
Now Trapinch. So imagine a bulky Diglett, with double the firepower. Trapinch fills a great niche in being one of the few true Diglett counters, as it can counter trap it, tank all of its moves, and OHKO it with Earthquake. Outside of Diglett, Trapinch uses its sky high attack stat to throw out incredibly powerful STAB Earthquakes and do great damage. Trapinch can also trap Pokemon like Diglett, but Trapinch is much slower, meaning it's more vulnerable to Pokemon that outspeed it such as *Doduo, Wailmer, and Chinchou. (Keep in mind with enough physical defense investment Trapinch actually wins the Doduo matchup.) Overall, Trapinch is a valuable Pokemon that can do a lot for a team, but keep in mind it is very matchup dependent.
Next I have Voltorb. Voltorb is a great Pokemon. It mainly utilizes its speed to work as a great utility Pokemon that can act as an offensive threat. It has the same speed as Elekid, and when compared to it, Voltorb is worse offensively with lower special attack and more limited coverage, but Voltorb has its own unique tools it can use to its advantage. Voltorb most notably gets Explosion, which it can use to typically OHKO the opposing Pokemon, and keep up momentum. Voltorb gets Taunt as well which it can use to stop setup sweepers and Spikes setters. That's about it. Voltorb is basically a budget Elekid which is worse offensively but has its own unique tools.
For the last of A tier I have Staryu. Staryu is just generally a great Pokemon. It has a great speed tier of 19 and a good offensive profile which lets it act as a good offensive threat. It has good special attack, and it has great coverage in Thunderbolt, Psychic, and Ice Beam. It gets Reflect and Light Screen, meaning it can support its team and itself, and it also gets Rapid Spin which is much more niche, but can still provide value in removing Spikes off the user's side of the field. Staryu has a bad matchup against Voltorb, Elekid and Diglett as they outspeed it and threaten it. Staryu can't do much against Voltorb and Elekid unless Light Screen is set up, but Diglett needs an attack boost to OHKO Staryu with Earthquake, meaning Staryu can reveal Diglett's set if it's ever used against it, which is very valuable. Staryu can also put EVs into physical defense and HP, meaning it can actually win against Diglett, this slightly lowers Staryu's offensive potential however. Overall, Staryu is a good offensive threat in ADV LC.
Starting off A-, I have Bagon. Bagon is simply one of the most threatening setup sweepers in the meta. With just a single Dragon Dance, it can outspeed every non-boosted Pokemon in the meta and throw out strong physical attacks. Bagon is very hard to stop unless the opponent runs a specific tech that can counter it (Eg. Intimidate Snubbull, Duskull, etc.), meaning Bagon can sometimes take games in one turn. Bagon can abuse its Rock Head ability to throw out Double Edges without repercussion. Bagon also has the coverage to make up for its bad matchups. Bagon can use Hidden Power Ghost to hit Gastly, Brick Break to hit Magnemite, and Rock Slide to hit Anorith. It is difficult to decide on which move to give up though, as Double Edge and Dragon Dance are needed, so one of the aforementioned coverage moves has to be given up. Overall, Bagon is a very threatening Pokemon that can take games under the right conditions, but it has its common counters such as Snubbull and Duskull.
Next I have Gastly. Gastly is pretty good. It has great immunities, great special attack, and great coverage, but it has an awkward speed tier meaning that most relevant offensive Pokemon outspeed and threaten it. It also has Explosion which it can use to keep up momentum and threaten a KO on the opposing Pokemon. Gastly's Ghost typing lets it bait Explosions from opposing Pokemon such as Wailmer and Voltorb and absorb them, deeming their Explosion useless. This is very valuable as it takes out the opposing Pokemon and gives Gastly a free switchin. That's about it, there's probably more I'm missing, but still.
Now I have Ponyta. Ponyta is kinda like a Fire type Staryu. It shares the same speed and special attack, but Ponyta has much higher physical attack. Ponyta acts as a potent offensive threat due to its speed and attacking stats, I don't have much to say. Ponyta's Fire typing gives it a good STAB option but makes it very susceptible to being trapped by Diglett, lessening its offensive potential. Ponyta can run a Sunny Day set with Solar Beam to make it even more of a threat or simply run a normal set which utilizies its great speed and attacking stats. I don't have much to say, Ponyta's good.
Now, I have Chinchou. Chinchou is pretty good. It works as a good Wailmer check which it can force out so Chinchou can set up a Substitute or take out Wailmer. Chinchou is pretty good offensively, but it has an awkward speed tier, and it's pretty frail, leading it to have plenty of relevant bad matchups. Chinchou loses to Doduo, Diglett, Abra, and some more I'm missing. These matchups hit Chinchou's viability a lot. Outside of these matchups, Chinchou is a pretty good Pokemon that can hold its own. I don't really know I don't have much steam for Chinchou.
For the last of A- tier, I have Anorith. Anorith with Swords Dance is one of the most threatening setup sweepers in the game. Anorith has an incredible attack stat and good speed tier which makes it a potent sweeper under the right conditions. Anorith gets both good STAB moves, most notably Rock Blast and Slide for STAB, and Brick Break for coverage which can hit Magnemite. Anorith with a Swords Dance is a very threatening Pokemon that nothing wants to switch in to or take hits from. Anorith has a good speed tier which lets it outspeed most of the metagame and speed tie with Doduo. Despite these good qualities, Anorith has its flaws. Anorith's speed tier is decent, but it is outsped by relevant Pokemon that threaten it such as Staryu and Ponyta. Anorith is also trapped by Diglett. Diglett with an attack boost from either Liechi Berry and Choice Band can OHKO Anorith with Rock Slide, and while Anorith can invest into bulk to give it a better time taking Diglett's hits, it ends up sacrificing attack EVs which mean Anorith has much less offensive potential without an attack boost. Anorith's strongest STAB move in Rock Blast is incredibly unreliable, so Anorith has to either take risks or run the comparatively weaker Rock Slide. Anorith also can't fit all the moves it wants to on one set. Swords Dance is usually necessary, Anorith likes Substitute to use to let it setup easier and improve its Diglett matchup if it comes into the interaction with a Substitute, Anorith wants to run Hidden Power Bug and Rock Blast or Slide for STAB, and Anorith wants to use Brick Break mainly to hit Magnemite, which would otherwise wall it. Anorith is a good Pokemon and threatening sweeper in ADV LC, but it has its flaws that have to be played around.
Starting B+ I have Exeggcute. Exeggcute can act as a threatening sun sweeper with Chlorophyll. Exeggcute can use Solar Beam to dish out great amounts of damage in sun while outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame with Chlorophyll. Exeggcute can use Psychic as another strong STAB option, and it has Explosion, which is a great move that typically OHKOs the opposing Pokemon and keeps up momentum. Exeggcute has decent bulk and special attack, and it needs very little investment to reach the speed benchmark of 11, letting it outspeed every unboosted Pokemon in the metagame under Chlorophyll. This lets Exeggcute be a threat once sun is set up. The limited turns where sun can be active is a big problem for Exeggcute, as the opponent can dance around Exeggcute's moves, stalling out the sun turns. Exeggcute also has Pokemon that can live its STAB combination such as Houndour. When sun isn't up, Exeggcute is a very mid offensive Pokemon who only has one viable STAB option in Psychic (Solar Beam requires 2 turns to activate when not under sun).
Next I have Horsea. Horsea is basically the same as Exeggcute. It is a weather sweeper, but Horsea utilizes rain instead of sun. Horsea is much faster so it needs 0 investment to reach the speed benchmark of 11, it is much frailer than Exeggcute, and Horsea has higher special attack. Horsea can partly remedy the problem of its bulk by investing into it, but the problem will still be present. Horsea's weather boosted moves are very strong due to the combination of STAB and rain boosts, meaning most things that don't resist Water get hugely damaged by them. Horsea suffers the same problems as Exeggcute, in that the opponent can dance around Horsea's moves to stall out the weather turns, and there are also Pokemon that can live all of Horsea's moves, even weather boosted such as Chinchou and Wailmer.
For the last of B+, I have Cacnea. Cacnea fills the same role as Pineco in being a Spikes setter. Pineco is much more defensive and has Explosion, letting it shoot out more spikes, and pivot out while doing great damage once it has done its job. Cacnea is less defensive, meaning it's threatened by more things, but Cacnea has much more offensive utility. Cacnea has very high attack and special attack, meaning it can threaten things such as Chinchou, forcing switches, therefore giving Cacnea more opportunities to get off Spikes. Cacnea also has Encore which it can use to lock an opposing Pokemon into an unfavorable move, also letting Cacnea get more Spikes off. Cacnea has some good tools at its disposal, but its worse defensive profile is still a problem, and Cacnea faces tough competition as a Spikes setter from Pineco, which is generally preferred.
For the first of B tier, I have Koffing. Koffing is a really good defensive Pokemon with it having only one weakness and decent stats. Koffing works as a great Diglett and Trapinch counter, being immune to their Ground moves and taking little from their other moves due to Koffing's high defense, and it can't get poisoned, which is a niche option on Diglett, but it still counts as a pro. Koffing's high physical defense is a valuable trait due to the prevalence of physical attackers such as Diglett, Anorith, and Snubbull. Koffing notably gets access to Explosion, a very useful pivot move which can do great loads of damage to the opponent. Koffing has a weak specially defensive profile, meaning that good special attackers such as Ponyta, Abra, and Gastly can threaten Koffing, and Koffing can't threaten them in return without Explosion. Despite the good physical defense, Koffing finds itself at the whims of strong special attackers of which there are plenty of viable ones, so Koffing has to play carefully, but it can still provide good value to a team.
Next I have Lileep. Lileep is a great defensive Pokemon. Its unique typing lets it be neutral to many good offensive types such as Ground, Water, and Flying. Lileep also has the rarely distributed Recover, meaning it can sustain itself even after its Sitrus Berry is gone, and also stall out Pokemon. Lileep also has great defensive stats, when paired with the aforementioned qualities, makes Lileep a very hard Pokemon to break through. Lileep has trouble making progress on opposing teams without the use of Toxic, meaning it can typically invite setup sweepers, mainly Abra and Anorith, and finds it hard to do much against them, especially variations of them with Substitute.
For the last of B tier, I have Houndour. Houndour fills a valuable niche as a Pursuit trapper that can trap good Pokemon, mainly Gastly, Duskull, and Abra. Houndour is a great special attacker with strong STAB moves, mainly Fire Blast, Crunch, and Pursuit, meaning it can threaten most things that it outspeeds. Houndour works as a great Abra check due to being immune to Psychic, taking most of Abra's other moves relatively well, and trapping it with Pursuit. Houndour can trap Gastly and Duskull, and proceed to bait Explosion from Gastly, and Memento from Duskull. Outside of being a great special threat, Houndour has many bad relevant matchups. It typically loses to Wailmer, Snubbull, Anorith, Doduo, Staryu, and gets trapped by Diglett. All these matchups are very impactful, and take a big hit to Houndour's viability.
For the first of B-, I have Magnemite. Magnemite's sky high special attack, Steel Typing, and Electric STAB allow Magnemite to act as a good offensive threat. Magnemite can utilize its Steel typing to wall Pokemon, most notably Abra, and Choice Band Doduo, letting Magnemite set up a Substitute or throw out an attack. Magnemite has some flexible moveslots after it puts its attacking moves, meaning it can make room for utility such as Toxic, Substitute, or Metal Sound. Magnemite's high special attack stat means that very little things like to switch in or take its moves unless they resist or are immune to them. Despite these good qualities, Magnemite is very hard to pilot and needs to be played carefully to get value on a team due to Magnemite's terrible matchups. Magnemite gets trapped by Diglett, and can't OHKO Trapinch, meaning it's also trapped by it, Magnemite loses to offensive Wailmers when they press Earthquake or Water Spout when healthy, but a slight remedy for this issue is that Magnemite can outspeed and OHKO bulky Wailmers, Magnemite loses to Doduos pressing Hidden Power Ground, loses to Snubbull with Earthquake, loses to Anorith and Bagon with Brick Break, loses to Ponyta, and probably some more. Magnemite still walls a select few Pokemon and can provide value to a team when used right, but keep in mind that is difficult to pull off.
Next I have Larvitar. Larvitar is basically a worse Bagon. It serves the same niche as Bagon as a Dragon Dance sweeper, and Larvitar has a few things over Bagon, but a few things under it. Larvitar is a stronger Pokemon, even though Bagon has higher physical attack, Larvitar has STAB moves that give it the offensive edge over Bagon. Larvitar has access to Guts, giving it a better Duskull matchup, as it can't threaten Larvitar with Will-o-Wisp. Despite these good qualities, Larvitar is much worse than Bagon due to its typing. While STAB is nice, the weaknesses that come with the Ground/Rock typing are very important. There are many good Water type attackers in the meta such as Wailmer, Staryu, and Chinchou which all threaten a non-boosted Larvitar, the quadruple Grass weakness makes Larvitar susceptible to surprise Hidden Power Grasses from Pokemon like Elekid and Ponyta, and the Ground weakness makes it weak to Trapinch and Diglett. Larvitar is indeed a good offensive Pokemon, but its terrible defensive profile makes it very hard to use.
Now I have Cubone. Cubone has the highest attack of all viable mons with Thick Club. Almost nothing wants to switch in on Cubone's incredibly powerful attacks, mainly Bonemerang, which is an incredibly powerful STAB move considering the strength of multi-hit moves in LC, Hidden Power Ghost which can hit Gastly and Duskull, Double Edge which Cubone can use without recoil due to its Rock Head ability, and Rock Slide which can hit Pokemon like Doduo. Cubone also has a high physical defense stat, meaning it can endure more hits from physical attackers like Diglett, meaning Cubone has more chances to attack. Cubone's explosive power does not come without its flaws however. Cubone is incredibly slow, meaning it is usually going second, and taking a hit. This problem is exacerbated on Cubone due to it having to run Thick Club to be viable. This takes up its item slot, meaning it can't run Sitrus Berry, and therefore can't sustain itself, so all the damage it takes is permanent. Cubone has impactful weaknesses, such as Water, Grass, (look to Larvitar why those are important), and Ice, which means Elekid can hit Cubone super effectively with Ice Punch. Cubone is also very specially frail. Cubone is also countered by Choice Band Doduo. Choice Band Doduo can switch in on Bonemerangs safely, then OHKO Cubone with Double Edge. All these flaws make Cubone incredibly hard to use well, but it still is possible for Cubone to provide good value to a team.
For the last of B-, I have Bellsprout. Bellsprout serves a niche as a sun sweeper. Exeggcute is generally better, but Bellsprout has the unique trait of being able to OHKO Houndour with Sludge Bomb (Granted Bellsprout needs attack investment and a Poison Barb), a Pokemon which walls Exeggcute. Bellsprout is able to outspeed the entire metagame with Chlorophyll active with minimal speed investment, and proceed to throw out very strong Solar Beams and sun boosted Hidden Power Fires. Bellsprout is walled by more things than Exeggcute, is easier to play around, and doesn't know Explosion, making Bellsprout generally worse than Exeggcute. Bellsprout is walled by Gastly, and needs Spikes support to be able to OHKO Pokemon like Ponyta and Anorith consistently. Bellsprout is also very frail, meaning it is difficult to set up sun consistently. Bellsprout can indeed put in work in a game, but the conditions needed to do so are difficult to achieve.
For the singular C tier entry, I have Magby. Magby is basically a worse version of 2 other Pokemon. Magby is basically a worse version of Elekid. It has the same coverage, a higher physical attack, and a slightly higher special attack, but Magby is slower than Elekid. This means Magby gets trapped and removed by Diglett very easily, unlike Elekid who has a fighting chance with Ice Punch and speed ties. Separate from Elekid, Magby is a decent fast, offensive Fire type Pokemon with good coverage. In this aspect, Magby is also outclassed by Ponyta. Ponyta reaches the same speed tier as Magby, has slightly lower special attack, but higher physical attack, Ponyta has better defensive stats, and a more useful ability. Magby has good coverage in Thunder Punch and Psychic which can hit Wailmer and Koffing respectively, it has Cross Chop which is niche, but can catch an opposing Houndour by surprise. Magby can utilize Confuse Ray as a gambit that can give a big payout if it works by wasting the opponent's turn and inducing some chip damage. Magby has good qualities, but it has tough competition in fitting on a team, and it typically doesn't provide enough value compared to its competition.
For the singuler C- tier entry, and last Pokemon on the viability ranking, I have Carvanha. Carvanha can fill a niche as a usable Agility sweeper. Carvanha has pretty decent special attack and very good physical attack. Carvanha having special STAB instead of physical impacts its viability a bit, but the STAB boost kinda makes up for its special attack. Carvanha can use Agility to outspeed the entire metagame and throw out its decently strong moves. Carvanha also has a good Abra matchup. Unless the opposing Abra is running Thunder Punch, Carvanha can set up on it freely. Carvanha's unique Rough Skin ability typically doesn't come into play but it's a bit funny is that Carvanha can sacrifice itself against Doduo's using Double Edge to increase the amount of recoil damage it takes, and be able to shut down Flail/Reversal sweepers. These types of sweepers are uncommon, hard to use, and can be removed through Quick Attack from the better Pokemon Trapinch and Doduo, but it's still notable. Carvanha has some glaring flaws however. It is incredibly frail, meaning it's difficult to find opportunities to use Agility, and even after Carvanha has used Agility, it can't cover everything it would like to with its 3 remaining moveslots, and some naturally bulky Pokemon can live Carvanha's moves and finish it off.
ponyta has seen a handful of uses so far in the ongoing lcbc (little cup big cup) tournament, which has a replays thread you can check out here.
ponyta has a few things going for it:
ability to reach 19 speed, which lets it outspeed all but 5 unboosted commonly used pokemon, tying with 2 of those
body slam, which has seen some use lately as a method of inflicting paralysis
sunny day, which it obviously benefits from but it can also set it up for a teammate such as exeggcute or oddish
overheat, an extremely powerful stab move that can net some surprise kos and chunk whatever it doesn't ko
you can see it really put body slam + sunny day + overheat to work in this replay to break through defensive pokemon. in practice, at least from what i've seen, it usually just goes 1 for 1 vs another fast offensive mon like elekid, especially since ponyta is easily trapped and removed by diglett. i think the b+ rating reflects its potential while being realistic about what it will actually accomplish in a game.
Since the regular season of LCBC is coming to a close, and ADVPL is on the horizon, the ADV LC council is looking for player feedback on the metagame. If you want to see tiering action before ADVPL, this is the way to make your voice heard! Please share your thoughts by filling out the survey here. The survey will close Sunday February 16 at 6:00 PM GMT-5, so be sure to fill it out before then.
The metagame survey has now closed! Thank you to everyone who took the time to fill it out. Let's take a look at what you thought about the current metagame:
Looking at the survey results compared to the last survey we did, we can see that metagame enjoyment has gone down and Diglett has gone from balanced to suspect worthy. Hopefully the next announcement will kill two birds (moles?) with one stone...
Diglett Suspect Test
Diglett has become a controversial element of the ADV LC metagame and a majority of the ADV LC player base would like to see a suspect test. As such, the ADV LC council has decided to run a suspect test on Diglett. Today marks the beginning of the discussion phase, which will last for a week and will be followed by the voting phase, which will also last a week. More details can be viewed in the discussion thread. I highly encourage anyone who has played the metagame since the Porygon ban and has an opinion on Diglett's presence in the tier to make a post!
Finished my LCBC run at a 6-2 record, a score I'll gladly accept result-wise. As for performance and building wise? I think the games I had were very fraudulent af, and it felt like I won due to a mix of my opponent making some faulty plays, or had some lucky moments which I capitalized where that lucky moment mattered till the end. While it's just how Mons functions in the end, it bothers me as it doesn't completely confirm whether my teams are staple-like worthy. As for building teams, I went through with a mindset of optimizing and refining the cores instead of being innovative and creative compared to LPL. It was a part of me that felt like I pulled out too much new stuff and should let the tier give its time to stabilize itself. Frankly, I wish I pulled out more of the newer mons/bring back old stuff into the current days. But realizing that I've innovated in such a big push from LPL in such a small tier like ADV, it was the best decision to focus on solidifying the "identity" I guess. Especially when the lack of test games near the end of LPL gave me some horrible memories I didn't want to envision at LCBC, as that's how it snowballed me into losing the passion I had with NFE(NFEPL VII was the nail of this for NFE ppl that reads this post). I felt like this for the majority of my time at LCBC, and it will affect my decision to join ADVPL.
Take that sad tone aside here, I'm pretty happy with how I pushed the tier. I ended up liking most of my teams because all of them had that synergy flowchart that I approve of. Do I think they will age well? Well, I think the meta has so much to be pushed for, and isn't near being solved so probably not. As again though, I genuinely think 75% or way more than the current VR shows are viable in a way to punish a lot of normal structures so take a grain of salt on whatever takes I make. Either way, huge thanks to jhm, rineko, and ant for discussing me when I did need though and giving me the tests when I truly needed them.
Week 1
Whenever I start building a team it usually starts from a mid-game interaction that leads to new or long-term positions, often putting my opponent in tricky positions and baiting them into my wincons at the near end. This team was mainly built from mid-game Pineco due to its unique defensive typing and I didn't need to stress about the lead techs specifically vs Pineco. I paired it with CB Diglett and Sub Elekid, as those two are probably the best fast offensive mons that take advantage of spikes. Snubbull and Wailmer help to switch in constantly vs Doduo + switching in Water Offense, Snubbull specifically can use Roar to pivot around and force spikes dmg, which helps Diglett for the endgame. Exegg is there to punish Diglett afterward, and I ran with Bulled Seed to specifically punish Sub Diglett. Not sure how I went in the prep vs Alder ST, but whenever I build teams, I always try to keep in mind that it works not only against the player but just in general. With that said, I'm not completely happy with the sets and I went back and made some adjustments that should be a bit more up to date for the current trends. I really liked the concept and I'll try and go back to this structure at some point.
Revisited version
Thief > Earthquake
Reasoning: Roar covers Substitute Magnemite already + you can use Pineco to maneuver around vs Magnemite.
Toxic > Rock Slide
Reasoning: Rock Slide doesn't do enough damage vs Doduo, but you can use Toxic to punish it switching in + it helps vs other Pokemon.
9 Speed > 8 Speed
Reasoning: You outspeed Lileep, so you're able to poison it which helps your team to wear it down.
Adjusted Defensive spreads so you're still able to have a 6.3 roll vs CB Doduo, while not worrying about 15 SpAtk Wailmer Water Spout + Hp Grass rolls unless both highest rolls.
Reasoning: Physdef Wailmer sets have a slight issue of tanking hits vs opposing Wailmer. This sacrifices 14 speed to 13 speed to make it more switch-in and out.
Ice Beam > Self Destruct
Reasoning: Ice Beam with 15 SpAtk nails down vs Bagon matchup and gives you better roles vs Lileep.
Optional: Add one more point SpDef EV to secure against 16 Sp Atk Wailmer. Self Destruct >Icy Wind or Ice Beam.
Rock Slide > Rock Tomb
Reasoning:
116 HP/156 SpDef > 36 HP/236 SpDef
Reasoning: The first spread avoids 6.3 rolls vs SpDef Diglett, has a stronger chance to survive HP Bug Anorith, and better rolls vs like Modest Magnemite.
Week 2
After the Porygon ban, I was quickly aware of how Diglett would affect the tier so I've had a strong usage of Trapinch and that wouldn't stop me from continuing it here. Trapinch itself creates an archetype of "what if Diglett wasn't in the tier" and this team is mainly built upon forcing Diglett early game into fast attackers(for this it's 2.5 bc Wailmer is kinda slow but Icy Wind makes it kinda fast lmao) and some defensive backbone. Now Chinchou was there for only one reason, and it was to tilt Naere and force them to go Diglett as early as possible vs my Chinchou. Unfortunately, the Lileep critted Chinchou t1 and I made some bad plays that made the game v favoured for Naere. For what it's worth, the MU looks very favored to them but I was very prepared for Lileep + Sun Chloro bc Abra is often a strong mon vs Lileep, and my Voltorb tanks a Solar Beam from Oddish, guaranteed. So Quinn and Naere can say I'm coping, but tbh this MU was very doable af for me. Admittedly I did make some adjustments because I still think I overextended the team, but the concept is cool enough for me to update it.
Revisited version
>
Reasoning: Koffing is a more consistent Pokemon against Lileep while being able to play around vs Snubbull and Wailmer leads. Being SpDef lets it survive vs Water Spout in t1(Modest makes this a 6.3 roll though). For what it's worth, I originally had Will-O-Wisp as a lead to cripple Snubbull, but I realized that Toxic punishes Wailmer Switch-in and with HP Ground covering Magnemite, the only true switch-in vs this set is Gastly which you have Abra, Voltorb and some degree of Snubull and Trapinch for to play around it. Taunt nails down vs Spikes leads, and other setuppers.
Spdef Koffing is a very underrated set that is one of those that has a strong long-term potential, and I wished I went with this rather than trying to tilt Naere in w2. The one I did make shouldn't be the definitive version of it. Ideally, I would like this Koffing to be 12 Speed to hinder 11 Speed Cacnea's, but due to HP Ground IV spreads this isn't possible, hence the random one Def EV point. Fire + Sludge Bomb coverage is also much better as you're able to hit Gastly while hitting Magnemite + other grass types. But at that point, you're using sassy which puts you at the awful 9 speed. One of the few mons that appreciated the phys/def split lol.
Endure > Sub
Reasoning: Secures vs Diglett, Ice Punch Elekid, etc, if it occurs that Trapinch got chipped while giving some turns to stall out weather turns.
Sub > Thief
Reasoning: HP Water feels mandatory with this team, otherwise, my team is gonna have a problem maneuvering around vs Houndour. If you feel like you can play around it, then gladly change it into Ice Punch or Thief. Ice Punch gives you stronger endgame security, while Thief makes Abra more active in mid-game positions. Otherwise, Sub synergizes with one point in HP EVs and still lets you beat Houndour.
Bulk Up + Hidden Power Bug, 11 speed > 10 Speed
Reasoning: Hidden Power Bug is an unusual move slot, but it nails down vs Exeggcute and Lileep at the same time. You're vulnerable vs Gastly and Magnemite, but at this point you've many mons on your arsenal to remove those out of the field and Thief does put Chip vs Gastly. 11 Speed avoids the 10-speed creeping, and you don't necessarily need one point more on SpDef as your team handles vs +1 Abra reasonably enough IMO.
Week 3
This team had a lot more preparation for the opponent than the general trends, which is why it looks awkward. The prep was all on cleaning up with Lileep because I had a feeling that Feen/Uppa would have some holes where Lileep could essentially outwall their whole team at the endgame scenarios. I believe based on the replay if I didn't stay in Wailmer with Lileep, the Lileep could have swept their whole team so my prep was right. But I lost because my performance was lackluster and I didn't make any good plays. Frankly, I did some dumbass stuff this week which I shouldn't have done because first of all, Eric knows my team. After all, we were in the same team at LPL. Due to the lack of availability on tests, I asked Uppa as long we didn't reveal our teams and such. I took a gamble, but I was very desperate to get some games. I shot myself hard as I provided the SpDef Doduo set to Uppa as she asked me in tests, so when I saw the Doduo in the match I said "Goddammit that's on me ripppp" because it proved its worth as my Staryu got cooked by Doduo like lmao. As for the team though, I think this team can make some adjustments, but it's a very anti-meta type of structure that no one has created so I can't say these types of teams will age well. A team with neither Wailmer nor Snubbull is difficult to make a good team out of, even if possible.
Adjustment with same mons
Revisited version
1 point SpDef EV > 1 Point Def EV
Reasoning: Spdef just lets you avoid the headache that is Wailmer Water Spout + HP Grass shenanigans.
Reasoning: The problem with Duskull on the opposing team is the speed aspect and it tries to be an attacker but lacks dmg output. This Gastly can take a Shadoball from 36 Atk Snubbull. You can argue that Toxic isn't that needed, where Will O Wisp and Explosion can easily replace it, but I wanted to nail Toxic such as Lileep, Abra, Snubbull and more mons as long it benefits Lileep in the end.
Reasoning: I hate hate hate HP Ghost/HP Bug. Ruins the bulk aspect of Diglett, and I think this team needs a bulky CB Diglett.
Barrier looks very odd at first glance, but my reasoning for that is so it can nail down Endgame DDs and Snubbull. I feel like Lileep usually trades hard vs Special Attackers, while Physical Attackers can exploit Lileep far more easily. So barrier here makes sense to me.
Week 4
Saw Naere bringing Lead Spoink, and I got inspired to build a Spoink team myself. The team isn't anything special as it's a balanced team with the classic Wailmer + Snubbull + CB Diglett with Double Psychic + Gastly to end it off. I think my prep was essentially to deny spikes while having speed control + item stealer, which Spoink covered perfectly. I'm gonna be real though, not completely happy with how the match went as going for a greedy thief instead of Icy Wind because I should've seen the upcoming CB user. The same goes with the Gastly vs Anorith interaction where I should have killed Anorith with Tbolt instead of Giga Drain because Giga Drain did not kill from that range whoops. I like the team a lot, but I can't shake off the feeling that I just got everything I wanted from that match. Can say this team is solid as it is and there's no adjustment needed.
Week 5
Originally I was going to build Anorith Lead, but as Alder ST and Feen both brought Anorith because of our DMS discussions, I decided to bring something else. Abra was just in case for Anorith, but it's also a lead I wanted to take advantage of over Evaki's lack of inexperience. Anorith was still the star of the team, as I theorized a lot of bulky Anorith so it could survive vs CB Doduo and HP Water Abra for example, and I wanted to pull it out. Trapinch fits here as Anorith and Abra are both victims of getting trapped by CB Diglett. The last mons became easy as Voltorb helps vs Abra endgame, and Gastly covers Oddish MU while being able to handle mons like Magnemite. Gotta admit despite the RNG moments, it was probably my favorite match of this LCBC because I implemented double reads, but Evaki also made some insane plays that made me smile I'm not gonna lie. Hope I can see more of her playing this tier because I liked her teams and how she plays the game, big fan.
I'll say I do have some adjustments I want to bring out. This team isn't bad, but I think the flowchart of the team can be much better after reviewing the games. The Trapinch set is designed to OHKO Bagon with EQ + Quick Attack, and that's it.
Revisited version
Screens > Barrier & Thief
Reasoning: Screens let me respond vs Icy Wind + Water Spout Wailmer + Physical Wallbreakers by far easier. You can opt Thief > Encore as Encore is to punish the opponent's non-attacking move. Of course, you can utilize these screens later as well, but the intent purpose was to cover vs leads as much as possible.
Obviously Wailmer needs to be Physdef here. But I added some Spdef EVs because I despise how the Water Spout + Hidden Power Grass is a KO against physdef Wailmer, so nowadays I add some Spdef due to how overwhelming Wailmer can be alright.
Changed the EV Spreads to make while having the bulk and being faster, but dropping the ATK investment.
Reasoning: I didn't like Anorith having to deal with 15-16 mons. I think losing attack investment sucks, but most people won't notice it so I am willing to gamble a little.
Double Edge > Hidden Power Bug
Reasoning: Hidden Power Bug has some of the worst IV drops, and Double Edge does more than HP Bug which is like lmao. So I took the opportunity lol.
Hidden Power Bug > Sub
Since I removed HP Bug from Anorith, Trapinch can opt for this to completely deny Exeggcute to set up, making it very difficult for Exeggcute to set up vs anyone on my team at all.
Endure > Protect
Endure helps stall out weather turns and avoids the OHKO if the opponent intentionally puts Trapinch in a range where Sitrus doesn't activate.
Week 6
Uhh, the prep was essentially that I wanted to try Sub Staryu and build it from there. Since I didn't bring a lot of fire types, I decided to bring Houndour + Oddish, giving a decent FWG combo that isn't explored as much. Trapinch has speed investment so I can just nail down vs Lileep w toxic. Snubbull and Oddish are both Subs to toxic stall Lileep lmao. Elekid is Sub Focus Punch to punish the incoming Diglett switch-in, which I hoped would work against Chungler due to his inexperience. This team has insane flaws though, and honestly, the fact I won since Chungler wanted to avoid the Bullet Seed interaction since I did that vs him last time we fought. I didn't put that heavy prep, but I will say it was a response to Chungler's structure back from ADV LC Open. I'll make some quick adjustments to solidify it tbh lol.
Revisited version
Bullet Seed > Sub and 76HP/80Def
Reasoning: Sub Oddish was beyond greed, so going back with the OG set works here much better. 2 points on HP stat gives you a lil ass roll vs Diglett, and ngl I forgot why I gave Oddish that. May have been Modest Wailmer or something lol.
Pursuit > Endure
Reasoning: Wants to nail down vs Gastly, and Pursuit is a RARELY used set. I think it's nearly mandatory to make the Snubbull set function tbh.
Not gonna lie, this one was the trickiest. I went through ALOT of Snubbull sets, and honestly, I'm not even sure the Snubbull set I created is the best for it. The thing with Snubbull is it's your Doduo switch-in, so I found thief near mandatory. But you want to target Lileep, Abra, Exeggcute, Magnemite, and Doduo at the same time. Here's where things get a bit complicated -> I found Bulk Up kinda feels mandatory to nail down vs Lileep and Exeggcute and I wanted to gain something for Pursuit Houndour, so I guess this felt like the best set to bring in.
Hidden Power Ground > Hidden Power Grass
Reasoning: With the above adjustments, I felt Hidden Power Ground helped enough. Trapinch MU is hella ass if you're forced to use it early, but I can at least determine the rolls from HP ground to find out what type of set it is.
Week 7
I was nervous as hell vs Cawil because he's been one of my longest rivals/adv lc fren. We have always gone back and forward in our matches, and with the lack of info on him post-ban, I had to rely a lot on prior experiences. The Prep was simply starting with Lileep because I expected him to bring something passive vs it, running SpDef Doduo to surprise him and it helps vs the egg which Ant adamantly told me to prepare for. Abra was 3 atk, which is not a normal set, but it made sense as I wanted to experiment with mid-ground Abra more as it has good defensive and offensive strengths that most mons don't have. CB Diglett finesse as usual, and Elekid should more than likely use Focus Punch if you don't bring Spikes, don't bring Trapinch, and are planning to use it in mid-games. Wailmer being 15 Speed and Spdef has its charms, but it does put Wailmer a target to Doduo, which this team is vulnerable versus. The reason why Lileep set this is because this team wants it to put chip rather than being a recover staller. It's also because I think Rock Slide/Giga Drain/Toxic/Recover was being overused, similar to Icy Wind + Water Spout Wailmer despite its insane reward. As for how the game went, kinda disliked the Rock Slide crit but overall it was very intense so I enjoyed it. The Endgame was a mess though. I think there were better ways to secure the victory, but I am thankful I won that one. GGs to Cawil, we will face again in other tiers ;)
Semifinals
Our game didn't matter into finals, so this didn't feel as satisfying. But I did win in the end and now we're 4-4, so I can't be too mad because I take those Ws lmao. As for this, I did the prep + taking a lot of notes from last week. Some things I took note of were that Naere tends to neglect sudden mons if they don't appear as much, which made me more interested in bringing mons that Naere doesn't tend to think of too much. I also was more careful vs Lileep and Magnemite, though I did take into account Naere being aware of herself bringing these mons. But there were obvious mons I was very aware she would bring, one of them being Exeggcute and since I didn't bring Doduo usually I figured out it could work against her again. I went through a good amount of teams, and one with Bagon > Doduo. But I went with Doduo since I can bring more mons in mid-game positions. There were many teams I debated to go through, but Baltoy + Doduo + Koffing ultimately caught my attention to bring the team vs her. Baltoy was a strong response vs her heavy usage on Voltorb, punishes Snubbull lead and if I catch Naere slacking vs Baltoy I could try and get an explosion on Wailmer since it's faster than 14 speed :)
As for how the match went, we rewatched our games and concluded that both of us played the game awfully lmao. For me, it was sacrificing Doduo vs Wailmer, where I could have gone Drill Peck to avoid dying to Icy Wind, and Naere went for Self Destruction on Koffing instead of using Icy Wind, which put me in a difficult position vs her Exeggcute at the end. The team has some minor flowchart problems vs Gastly, but I think you can adjust that by changing Elekid to bulkier Abra with Sub 3 atk(Psychic, Ice Punch, and either Fire or Thunder Punch or fix the Elekid set alright... Otherwise, I loved how I ended up with this. The structure of bringing a bulky ground mon/or a mon that doesn't care about Voltorb with CB Diglett is a nice adaption I always wanted to implement in my buildings.
Expect another post very soon as I'll teamdump my alternative teams and ideas. Just didn't want it to clogg it up on this post tbh.
Almost too late to post my alternative teams and other teams I experimented at LCBC. Warning, a lot of them are not tested or aren't necessary serious. So use these teams with caution as I like to develop in my weird mind. I'll do some minor adjustments though if I can see the team be able to be used in the current day.
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4
Week 5
Week 6
Week 7
Semifinals
Finals. "What do you mean finals, your team got owned by Slugma's in Semifinals" Well Uppa asked me to build with them, and I ended up just building teams for them ooops. Not regrets tho.
(favourite team because it's very fun to build this one) (Finalist team for Feen)
Good luck to everyone at the Live Tournament for Diglett Suspect thread, hosted at the LC Room!
Diglett The results of the Diglett suspect are in! After a very quick vote (0 ban votes and 6 do not ban votes), Diglett will remain in ADV LC! Thank you to everyone who took the time to discuss Diglett's place in the tier, and everyone who voted.
Upcoming ADV LC Tournaments
If you missed out on LCBC or are just hungry for more, don't worry as there are two upcoming opportunities to play ADV LC:
ADVPL V (Mid March) - Like last year, ADV LC will be included in this year's ADVPL. Keep an eye on the ADV subforum for when player signups go up!
LPL 14 (Mid March) - Starting with this edition, ADV LC will be included in each LPL. LPL is a Discord team tournament that features many generations of LC as well as some other LC metagames like UU, RU, and Doubles and is a great way to break into LC team tournaments! Join the Discord to learn more.
ADV LC Cup (March 16th) - Like last year, ADV LC will be included in this year's edition of LC Classic! There is a prize pool of $2000 for the LC Classic playoffs this year, so there are sure to be many fierce competitors in the tournament.
Council Announcement
I will be stepping down from council and leaving the tier in the capable hands of naere, Quinn and Shing (as reggg has also decided to step down from council for unrelated reasons.)
To keep things short, over time I've lost interest in playing ADV LC (as well as competitive Pokemon in general) and as such my duties as tier leader are no longer enjoyable to me. I want to see this tier continue to grow and thrive, and I feel the best way to facilitate that is to leave it in the hands of people who are much more interested in the tier than I am. Thank you to everyone who has helped out along the way, whether that was helping run a tournament, providing resources such as a viability ranking, analysis, or sample team, or even just playing the game. I hope that the work we've put in over the last two years has paved the way for people to enjoy ADV LC well into the future!
Thank you, Grape for all the effort you’ve put into this tier. You’ve revived a metagame that had been abandoned for years and made it one of the best! Without you I doubt this tier would even be relevant in tournaments. I’m sure many are grateful for the resources you’ve created and the enjoyable experience people had in the past tournaments. Just looking at the tiers history in the first post so much has happened in just 2 years wich i doubt many other people would achieve running a lc oldgen. I hope we, as the ADV LC community, continue developing the meta and keeping it relevant so that your work won’t be in vain.
Thank you for your time Grape! I can't even describe in words how much you being the tier leader helped the tier arise since 2023. You've done so much that in such a niche tier that we have appeared in many big team tournaments. I hope you're proud of your work and you get something from the experience in the future. Best wishes for your future endeavors as a smogoff/smogon mod and your journey as an art artist. Me, Naere, and Quinn will do our best effort on this tier and you're always welcome just to hang out <3
I appreciate the effort that you've done for ADV LC Reggg. Despite your current thoughts on this tier's state, I thank you for pushing it to the limits, as you are one of few that I felt like I couldn't outmatch in terms of meta development. We have gone through the peak and war-criminal times when we tried to outdo each other, but all of them were fun as they lasted. Good luck with DPP LC and other tiers you're enjoying as a competitive player. And a personal message for me, thank you for the valuable time you put up with me. I learned a lot from your stuff, and maybe I'll catch you again in DPP LC or another tier we may like at the same time. Till then, be the best player you can be in the games you love <3
A new end means there's also a new start, and instead of ending this post at a sorrowful feeling, I'll be highlighting new sets when I was meta developing through LPL, and LCBC, and talk about strategies that I wished I thought out earlier. Of course I can spare them for ADV LC Cup in a week, but I'm here for meta developing and more so I'm just too impatient to keep it to myself.
Fire types are a weird case atm. Because of Diglett, you typically see them in Trapinch teams. Even then, you don't see them a lot since all of them are frail against physical attacks from Snubbull and Lileep, and their endgame scenarios aren't as perfect as they can't gain momentum vs Diglett(unless something specific like Intimidate Growlithe with Agility vs Spdef Diglett) and can't stop some setups like Bagon. However, I find fire types still having valuable defensive traits in the current meta that make me keep an eye on them. Here's my take that I've theorized at LPL, LCBC, and Diglett live tours.
I don't vibe with the current offensive set from Porygon mainly because the set is very lackluster in terms of sweeping potential. So I went back and did some personal calcs to see if there was something I missed. Eventually I found a set that I made at the near end of LCPL.
236+ Atk Ponyta Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Abra: 18-22 (94.7 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO, (OKHOs if 1 point HP instead, which matters for Sub sets)
236+ Atk Ponyta Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 18-22 (94.7 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (OHKO's if 36/236)
You have to make it +Atk, otherwise you get 3 less favourable roll points.
236 Atk Ponyta Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 17-21 (89.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Ponyta Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Abra: 17-21 (89.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+Speed is reasonable if you have 1 Spike on opponent's field.
This isn't the most perfect calc dmg as I want to have. But if you want to guarantee it, Silk Scarf is an option that perfectly guarantees the OHKO. Agility is almost mandatory as this avoids you TIE-ing vs Abra if they decide to attack you at the near end.
Fire Blast is by far a better option as this lets you keep sweep vs teams, but Overheat has some key dmg creeps such as..
76 SpA Ponyta Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Anorith: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
-1 236+ Atk Ponyta Double-Edge vs. 196 HP / 36 Def Snubbull: 9-11 (36 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
76 SpA Ponyta Overheat vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Snubbull: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76 SpA Ponyta Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Snubbull: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I did try 1 point increase on Sp Atk investment, and at best it makes -1 D-Edge and Fire Blast guaranteed if the Snubull is not completely fully SpDef.
-1 236+ Atk Ponyta Double-Edge vs. 196 HP / 36 Def Snubbull: 9-11 (36 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
156 SpA Ponyta Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 116+ SpD Snubbull: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But yeah, despite trying my best to find the perfect spread, there are still imperfections with this set. If you're going for Sitrus and want the guaranteed consistency, then it's a perfect candidate on Spikes teams. You have to accept that the min-roll if that happens w/o it, shrug. ADV LC has too many of these near perfect rolls and you don't know how annoying it is as someone who tries to be guaranteed sees this shit lmao. But I do think this set has more potential than the current offensive set.
In one of the teamdumps I had Spite Houndour to punish Wailmer with only Water Spout as its Water move. It was a bit of trolling, but I kinda realized you can pull this out with Protect + Sub, and that made me revisit the Fire Lead meta. The TL;DR why Fire Leads is not a thing is because they've nothing on Wailmer with Water Spout. Even in Sun ALL fire types were OHKO'd like wtf dude. There's also Snubbull Earthquake be cooking their ass, but mostly it's because of Wailmer lead. Protect + Sub burns out 6 turns of Water Spout already, and Wailmer can't break your Sub after that, which I found too hilarious to not lab on. This set is very gimmicky and fishes on one set. But it can be a funny option to do, vs new beginners, as most newer players always tend to bring Wailmer Lead. If you're going to build around this, I recommend Trapinch + Elekid as backseat mons. Now here are spreads I've made for Ponyta, Houndour, and Magby bc all of them OHKO Diglett as well behind a Sub.
Ponyta @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 SpA / 196 Spe
Lonely Nature / Naughty Nature
- Substitute
- Double-Edge
- Overheat / Naughty
- Protect
Naughty can be helpful vs Snubbull lead.
36 Atk Snubbull Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 76 Def 30 IVs Ponyta: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Houndour @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Crunch / Toxic / Thief
- Protect
Crunch hits naturally vs other mons while Toxic lets Trapinch think twice before switching in lol. Thief can steal Wailmer's Sitrus if you want that, but it also puts Trapinch into Thief + Fire Blast without triggering the Sitrus.
Magby @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 SpA / 252 Speed or EVs: 76 Atk / 116 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Fire Blast / Thief / Toxic / Confuse Ray
- Protect
First EV Spread OHKO's Diglett guaranteed while the other does not, but you get more dmg from Fire Blast.
Thief is for Sitrus stealing, Toxic also owns Trapinch, and Confuse Ray makes you ass vs Ghost types but you can piss someone off with this set
With that said, I think you can have a very low usage on fire types and still be the best player in this tier. I just think Fire Types shouldn't be overlooked when meta developing. I will say that out of the fire types, Ponyta is the only fire type that has untapped potential. All the others feel too underwhelming unless there's something specific you want to do with them.
Btw, I had something on Houndour with Crunch/Fire Blast/Solarbeam with Sun Support, but usually I find Houndour's speed issue to be too lackluster that I don't think it's worth continuing it. Maybe in the future, if I or someone can prove me wrong.
This set is more aimed at making Abra active in mid-game as I found it has some key defensive traits that it switches in against while being extremely difficult to switch in if you don't know its set. Ice Punch is mandatory as it has a 87.5% chance OHKO on Spdef Diglett set. As for the last slot, Thief is usually the preferred option as it's barely bulky enough to not die and it combos well with Sub. However, you don't necessarily need to use Thief Abra as it has great alternatives in there. Fire Punch nails down vs certain mons such as Magnemite and Exegg in Sun, and puts Trapinch on a perfect range to avoid triggering the Sitrus while Thief has 5 low rolls points where Ice Punch won't ohko it if it gets a low roll on Trapinch. As for spreads, having 1 point on Spdef or Def lets it avoid 6.3 rolls from Hydro Pump from Staryus, and EQ from Diglett as well, and as well give them a slight chance to survive certain moves. If you're bringing Spikes with Abra, you can drop 1 point from SpAtk on either Def/SpDef as Ice Punch guarantees vs Diglett regardless of what. Hidden Power Dark can be considered if you want to nail down vs the Abra MU as well.
Just some slight adjustments in CM Sub Sets as without the HP evs, Icy Wind from Wailmer is guaranteed to break Abra's sub after 1 CM. 76 HP gives you only two, while 156 HP gives you 3 Subs before triggering the Sitrus. However, Psychic from 156 SpAtk Abra isn't able to guarantee the kill vs certain mons such as Doduo(90 - 110%) and has lower chances vs opposing Abra with HP Dark. You can opt for Ice Punch with 156 SpAtk in that case though. I usually prefer this team vs Trapinch teams that are designed to force Diglett out early as possible, but this can fit in Diglett teams if you're expecting them using non cb-SpDef sets or have a very strong gameplan structured teams that punishes Diglett and its cores.
I created this set after my set vs Evakiyama bc of I hated how Wailmer's Icy Wind + Water Spout just invalidated Abra on lead, so I made this to solve essentially every lead interaction that would annoy me. But I quickly realized how this set can function in later game due to Abra's restrictive counterplay and its "forcing" positions where you can put them in vulnerable positions, often forcing them to attack as being passive vs Abra isn't an option. Just based on my theory, you're often guaranteed to get a 1 Screen Off and then you can Autopilot into Encore to restrict the options of your opponent. Psychic is usually preferred, but if you're not worried about trying to sweep the opposing team, then Ice Punch is an excellent lategame move that often limits many endgame mons from sweeping, and you can afford dropping Sp Atk evs unless you're afraid of Diglett. I recommend Screens/Psychic/Encore on lead, while Ice Punch is merely an option at near end. Screens are very underdeveloped and often neglected since people find them to be lackluster with how few turns they last. I believe otherwise that people are too complacent with their structures that they aren't able to think outside the box. It may also be because of how they think Screens works in other tiers, can be applied in here when to judge it's good or not, which I disagree a lot. For example, I theorized that you bring fast mon with Light screens so the next mon has enough physdef bulk to not die from it. But it can become more nuanced the more you're thinking about it. I do give kudos to Gawain, Heysup, and probably more other players that tried to use screens.
If you're going to make it as a lead, you can be very creative with it. As for trappers, Trapinch is usually preferred if your teams are very vulnerable to Diglett, but Diglett also works. But there's probably a line where you can bring trapless teams and snowball from there, but rn it does not exist or has barely had any development at all. If there is anything I thought of, I theorized Spikes Lead(Snorunt > Pineco > Cacnea) into the backseat Abra. Neglect Spinning as that move is so rare that it has huge drawbacks on every mon it runs into with exception of Pineco. Otherwise, I'll try and see if I find more out of this in ADVLC Cup.
Baltoy has been overlooked due to facing heavy competition against the trappers as a ground type. But I'm so glad I pulled this out because I always found it to have strong qualities in the current meta, I just neglected it like everyone else. But Uppa mentioning it at their VR in our DMs made me pay attention to it again. The qualities it has are that it switches in vs Gastly, Voltorb, Koffing, Magnemite, hard checks Larvitar, and Anorith due to its unique typing. But there's a new adaptation I made it over the current smogdex. It's faster now and threatens Wailmer with Explosion, while being bulky enough to take hits vs such as Snubbull, Abra, etc. I think it's an interesting mon that can be used along with Diglett or on trapless teams. I'll quickly mention that this set should not be the definitive set as I used it more as a preparation vs Naere. Naere made her own differently and you can argue it's better than mine as hers had key qualities that are better than mine. But we both agree that Baltoy should be fast to differentiate itself from its competitors and I hope to see more Baltoy teams in the future. It's very underdeveloped and I'll be trying to build more with it. Another case of being buffed from Porygon ban, but was overlooked by most people.
Why did almost all of us try to use Anorith in the same week?, Like I know I did dm'd some people about Anorith, but I swear this is not what I intended to do lmfao. I did not like the fact I was 17 Speed Anorith and had to face another Anorith, do not do that vs me again Evaki/Mielke/Goldmason/Sunrose smfhhhhhh. I think Anorith is like the deadliest mon in theory, but it's just very inconsistent as a mon. Not only is Rock Blast inconsistent, but the bulk always feels like there's something I could do with it as the potential of clutch survivability was there. So somewhere in the middle of the week, I experimented heavily on Anorith and made a lot of calcs, way too much time on it. What I learned that HP Bug iv spread is fucked up and I'm gonna ask the programmers to fix that so you get the right one. You've no idea how mad I was when I went down and figured the IV spread was the unoptimal one... Anyway, I'm gonna talk more about ev spreads than the moveset itself.
Lead (Anorith)
Ability: Battle Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Atk / 200 Def / 40 SpD / 160 Spe
or 76 HP / 156 Atk / 196 Def / 80 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
Physdef invested (Anorith)
Ability: Battle Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 240 Spe
or 156 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 160 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
Lead Anorith is specifically designed to survive vs Rock Slide from Smogdex Lileep, guaranteed. This also benefits vs CB Doduo and Diglett, but overall it's hyper specific vs Lileep so you're able to setup vs it. Frankly, the Speed aspect is very dependable, as this is 16 in speed to avoid 15 speed creeps. But you can reasonably drop 1 point on speed and add it onto atk, and 156 Atk has significant rolls in terms of lead department. It's honestly a good pick if you see people bring mons that aren't Snubbull and Waters, but I will admit this set is extremely ugly for what it's going for.
This set is the definition of 6.3 rolls from CB Duduo and EQ CB Diglett, and it still annoys me but it does its job I guess. Dropping smth into 1 point HP lets it survive vs them guaranteed + helps vs Abra attacks. But honestly just calculating stuff made me realize that Anorith are one of these cases of imperfections again. Dropping speed can suck, but it's usually not a huge commitment doing 1 point and at worse you're worse v 18 tiers. The issue for me is that I would love Anorith to have 156 HP/116 Def and 156 Atk at the same time. 76 Atk has some ass rolls compared to 156 Atk, and 156 HP just nails it down on having the guaranteed calcs. Dropping to 16 speed and tie-ing against Houndour and Chinchou is such an ass feeling that I don't want to do that. Maybe I'm too harsh and overreacting. Anorith is still a deadly mon that has that sweeping potential, but it does suck knowing that I have to deal with these flaws whenever I want to build with Anorith.
Got interested in Snorunt again after thinking of speed dynamics in lead meta. Liked the fact it's 15 in speed so you can option select Light Screen vs 14 Speed Wailmer and utilize Icy Wind vs other things. So I went into the lab and I was oddly satisfied that it only has a 6.3 roll from Rock Slide vs Lileep from getting OHKO'd, and I liked that it only died to Double Edge Doduo if you ignore HP Steel and Rolls from Return, which would massively help mons like Exeggcute to sweep Doduo afterwards. HP Ground prevents Magnemite and Chinchou from subbing even though it's just generally a good coverage move with Snorunt. Rain Dance was a FUNNY concept I wanted to imagine after the faint, I will switch in Wailmer and click Water Spout boosted by rain or Thunder Staryu lmfao. Double Edge is obvious to force the turn to get skipped for the opponent, which synergizes very well with Icy Wind for example. As for the Pokemon itself, it'll need to have some games before I could judge its viability. But as always, I do believe in it, or else I wouldn't put my time into every one of them.
To end with this post(part 1 heh), I'm gonna talk about Voltorb, which was a Pokémon I dearly love in ADV LC. I've had so much fun with it because I can bring so many different sets, which often have different spreads with different purposes that always seem to be effective. It's not as straightforward as Elekid's offense, but it always has that awesome longevity and so many utility tools that can make them active from start to end if done right. A set I want to discuss is the Feen's Lead Voltorb, as it proves my point that Voltorb can be customizable enough that it has strong responses vs its counters.
In a nutshell, this team is designed to annoy Voltorb's defensive checks as many of them aren't immune to toxic, or those that are gets often conditioned by Hidden Power ground, or often lose 1v1 from tbolt, or just aren't as common to be brought out. The goal is to force their trapper in early as possible, and then punish them with Trapinch. You can be creative with 4 of the mons at the end, but usually a tip from me is that you want to have checks against Chloro mons, and have something for Abra, and then you're good to go. As for EVs, the reason why it's physdef invested is because I wanted it to survive vs from Lead Snubull that has 36 Atk investment. If it wasn't for that aspect, I would have gone for Toxic Elekid with Focus Punch instead but thankfully I found a strong reason to utilize Voltorb's bulk. Usually not having Explosion on Voltorb is unheard of. But just how I think, you don't necessarily need to use self-ko moves nor is it unoptimal. It's something I've always argued when I talk to Naere in DMs since she thinks that you should rarely if never at all drop them. And I disagree with her because in this meta, we've seen an uprise in mons that covers explosions mons which makes them more likely to switch against those that often run it. But there's the thing, the scariest aspect with self-ko mons is that you can never truly know if they have it or not. And you can bring 2-4 Mons that learn it in a team, but you can decide which ones will have the move. You essentially add in more layers in your structures, and it helps you to overwhelm vs the ones that tank self-destruction.
The next post will be in a few days. Just gonna ramble about some more sets on certain mons on before going to the topic such as
- Utilize Hidden Power more
- Taking Toxic + Sub(not necessarily in same mon) combo to the next level
- Perhaps some cores that I never quite completed
- other stuff(most likely not bc I don't want it to become too random and boring tbh)
Again, thanks to everyone that has paid attention to my posts. I know they tend to be too long, but as long as you get something out of it that's all I need to make me happy. See y'all in a few days.
I only started playing this tier to play ADVPL with my friends last year and I'm glad that I did. It was great to see how much work was put into this tier starting from a push that you coordinated for a tier that probably barely has a consistent double digit amount of players playing it. From full calc spreads to analyses it's pretty insane to see this sort of work in any tier on Smogon in the 2020s. And since this tier never had any official representation it was easy to get suspect tests up and going & was also done with community effort (for the most part(I didn't keep up to date with the Pory stuff?)). Thanks for leading the tier and hope the other people will keep the ball rolling in an era where these levels of contributions are not the norm anymore. Hope you are one day able to make it to Toronto with all of the wisdom you learned here.
If grape tylenol had not been tier leader, I probably would never have touched adv lc or even known that it exists. I'm glad I did play it, and plan to play it more. Thank you for your effort, it benefits me.
Diglett
Wailmer
Abra
Doduo
Gastly
Snubbull
Anorith
Elekid
Trapinch
Chinchou
Pineco
Staryu
Voltorb
Bagon
Cacnea
Houndour
Ponyta
Cubone
Duskull
Exeggcute
Koffing
Lileep
Magnemite
Magby
Horsea
Larvitar
has solid speed for a salac set and gets stab on reversal which is pretty nice against something like snubbull or anorith. it can also run bulk up to increase its damage output, though endure makes the set more consistent, especially if paired with another pinch sweeper to function as a cleaner.
unfortunately does not have agility in this gen, so it will have to opt for a sd salac set with flail. the lower speed makes it more exploitable, but krabbys rly high attack means its flail deals about the same damage as liechi doduo and it can run hp steel over ghost to ohko gastly after an sd, allowing it to hit anorith whos resistant to flail.
if youve seen a shing replay in the past few weeks then u know this mon is real. overgrow is great and this mon has agility meaning it can run petaya. grass stab is honestly really nice in this metagame since a lot of the top meta threats are weak to grass and theres a surprising lack of resists to it. unfort the grass stab is likely going to be giga drain since youd likely want hp ice to hit bagon, though you could perhaps run crunch for gastly and just run hp grass for stronger stab.
frankly i havent seen this in tours yet and havent got to try it yet but charmander has dragon dance meaning it can run petaya with blaze, and its using a much stronger stab move in either fire blast or flamethrower; flamethrower prob gets the job done on most things anyways tho unless u want to try ohko bagon. hp grass deals with staryu but you definitely need to get rid of wailmer, chinchou and opposing fire types (houndour/ponyta) beforehand, such as forcing wailmer to boom in some way and pairing with diglett. surprisingly analogous to charizard in ou prior to its mixed set gaining popularity.
now this is kind of a meme but its one of only two mons with swarm in the meta (the other is ledyba lol). it has agility, a decent attack and workable speed stat, and bug is a surprisingly not bad offensive type in the meta. youd run signal beam with a hp like ghost to hit gastly, but it can only rly set up on specific mons as its poor bulk means most mons can ohko it without going out of their way to
gets to use a 200bp flail due to its base hp and has a workable speed stat for salac, but it doesnt have a way to boost attack and flail is unstab meaning doduos flail is gonna deal more damage anyways. 
is similar though it has access to sd, but tbh it runs flail and eq then it cant hit gastly at all, and doduo/mankey is just stronger than it. i do think these strats overall have a ton of potential despite the common counterplay options to it.
Diglett Suspect Test 
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