Hello everybody, now that UPL IX has concluded, I'd like to kickstart this thread in the brand new ADV sub forum to generate some discussion about the metagame. We already have the Ubers Old Gens Hub, but I figured this would be a good addition to the ADV thread since that is all generations of Ubers. I'll be dropping some stuff from this past UPL here (soon), and am hoping to see some others do the same.
Here are a decent chunk of (unfortunately similar) teams from my builder which I a. built myself at one point b. consider at least somewhat viable. Some of the movesets need a bit of changing, i.e. SuperOgre on teams without a reliable stallbreaker or Overheat Groudon on the Banded Lugia team, but these are my teams as they were originally built. Next, I'd like to talk about a handful of sets that my team and I explored this season.
If you notice a trend among these, a lot of people kind of blindly accept that "sun stall is the best playstyle in the tier" but I feel like they don't actually do anything about it. Similarly, a lot of people tend to use sun stalls because it is the so-called best playstyle in the tier, making it pretty noteworthy to prepare for in every game. In every team I used this season, I made sure to have a sufficient amount of sun stall counterplay, and several of the sets I used are contained here (as well as a few extra).
Snorlax @ Leftovers
EVs: 80 HP / 152 Atk / 8 Def / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam
- Shadow Ball
This one was a Heysup tech, not mine. We brought it 3 times, actually, but we never got to use it. Basically, spread paralysis early, then you never have the problem of being unable to break Lugia sun stalls. Not a move you end up clicking in most matchups, but one you love to have in the matchups it is intended for.
Rayquaza @ Leftovers
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 212 HP / 56 Atk / 16 Def / 224 Spe
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power [Flying]
Sun Stall 6-0er. EVed to not have your Substitute break from no investment Groudon HP Ghost. Fast enough to set up a sub on most Lugias, then with a DD, begin to phase everything around and slap it. Works best with Spikes.
A concept I stole from ADV OU Suicune, a lot of bulkier teams rely on Groudon resetting the weather vs Sub CM Kyogre, and this totally puts a stop to that. Dropping Ice Beam blows, but such is life.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
Water Spout at +1 reliably 2HKOes Blissey, and it's a fantastic way to force Latios to click Recover while hitting everything else with an incredibly strong water move, allowing you to get free entry to your Snorlax.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
EVs: 32 HP / 96 Atk / 112 Def / 8 SpA / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
- Body Slam
I brought this set because I know my tendency of using Curse Bslam EQ Protect Snorlax, which hard blanks into Skarmory. So, in an effort to try and catch an opposing Skarmory off guard, I slapped Thunder on my Snorlax.
Unironically super broken. No longer is Bliss complete setup fodder and the most passive thing on the planet. Allows you to use Deo-A a lot more aggressively if you land a Sing onto a Metagross or a Groudon, or gives you free setup turns with a Pokemon like Sub CM Kyogre. You have to give up an otherwise valuable move for Sing, which kinda sucks, but it is 100% worth it.
Another sun stall 6-0er. If you choose to set this up as your last mon, there is simply nothing they can do. It PP stalls Latios, which is hilarious, and even PP stalls Hydro Pump Kyogre. Works in other matchups because the Pokemon it lures in to beat exist on other teams commonly, and Pressure + 32 PP Recover + Substitute is really hard to be useless.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
- Meteor Mash
- Rock Slide
People often try to use their Sp.Def Groudon as their Metagross answer, and this completely flips that matchup on its head. You outspeed the majority of Groudon and have incredibly favorable odds to 2HKO them. Note that because you are not Leftovers, your opponent has no idea that you very likely outspeed them. However, note that this also works both ways: you are not certain that you are faster than them. Fast CB Rock Slide is also great for getting the jump on bulkier Ho-Ohs.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
EVs: 80 HP / 168 Def / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
- Body Slam
Fantastic way of baiting SD Groudon. At +1, click Protect, they will EQ into your Counter and get annihilated. Also great at destroying Metagross attempting to Mash through you.
This is a beautiful metagame, and I'm glad to have played in UPL this year! Hopefully I get a chance another time, this was a total blast.
it needs *significant* team support in consistent spinning, but it is possible generally to spin on stuff like skarm and other forry with one's own forry; and niche spinners like starmie can spin on nearly everything with spikes. jolly shed is surprisingly resilient to pursuit, being able to escape slower meta; and bp means that to actually catch it they will usually need to double into shed, which a good player (not me lol) can take advantage of.
similarly, because shed cannot be touched whatsoever by what it switches into and because it grabs momentum easily with bp the best way of dealing with it is to double as it switches in, which again is exploitable.
its function of walling many stallbreakers and absorbing explosions is useful on stall, and its ability to grab momentum easily and force plays is useful on faster-paced stuff. it remains somewhat a matchup fish, as it still has a weakness to fast suit gross, spikers that its team cannot spin on, spinblockers, ttar, suit deo formes, etc.; and the number of targets it has on the opposing team is pretty variable. nevertheless, most teams will have at least a lati that shed's teammates can lure in and use as a platform, and it generally if played well has outs against these weaknesses, mainly by bping away or predicting a double.
possibly pair it with dug to trap meta, deod (?), ttar? maybe hooh as an alernate lati switchin to grab momentum if you expect a double to a physical attacker? counter bliss is a cool partner, so is deoa, so is starmie.
Since Lasen is having a really hard time getting tournament players to make their own personal VRs, I figured I would post my own. Most of it comes from a where does it fit, how dangerous is it, and what does it facilitate perspective.
Nothing really changes here. The weather mons are still the best mons in the tier by far, Latios is still the most overall threatening check to them, and Deo-A is the most effective revenge-killer and dangerous cleaner in the tier.
I moved Snorlax up to mon #5 purely because of how many teams it fits on and works well with (stall can use it too alongside Blissey!). Metagross is after because it works on anything besides stall and has had a bit of diversification in its already dangerous movesets recently. Forre moves just below because of just how important Spikes + Spin is for fatter teams making it almost a requirement for them to work at all. Mewtwo is still a top 4 lead Pokemon and is still one of the most dangerous Pokemon the game has to offer just behind Deo-A. Blissey is a requirement stall teams and is still the only reliable pivot into 120 power eon twin moves and Kyogre Hydro Pumps we have.
Ho-Oh's does quite a few things very effectively including but not limited to having good odds of getting a nasty status condition a Kyogre, using a very threatening Choice Band set or even 3 attacks + Recover, or just straight sitting on the field walling out Pokemon with low BP moves against it between Pressure and 32 PP Recover. Its sub CM set is rather obnoxious as well. CB and Sub Salac Heracross are incredibly dangerous if the Megahorns hit and CB in particular can be rather annoying to KO if a team lacks Spikes. Sub Salac Heracross is the most dangerous Salac cleaner by far. Latias works better for a team when it absolutely cannot lose its eon twin to Kyogre paralysis nonsense and is therefor better at facilitating more niche mons who the weather duo may prey on than Latios though Latios's ability to absolutely destroy anything not named Blissey is usually preferred. A properly supported defensive Lugia if the hardest thing ever for just about any team to KO and so long as it has Spikes on the field, it has little trouble making progress. It's able to phaze literally everything (including boosting Pokemon) that isn't anchored to the floor when behind Blissey's Light Screen. It only fits on stall. CB Lugia is neat and can definitely do nasty things if the MU allows it too but that's the problem: it is MU dependent and there are usually better Pokemon for taking advantage of these MUs.
Skarmory's defensive profile is very polarizing as it walls most of the physical metagame before random coverage moves (from Groudon and Snorlax), Forretress, and Magneton are thrown into the mix. It can kinda take on Metagross's Pursuit role as well though it isn't all that great at nabbing a Deoxys-A when put in direct comparison. Jirachi, whether it be SpD or Def, is an incredible pivot and is one of the primary causes for diversity in the sun balance archetype. It doesn't check all that much on its own though and between that and lack of Spikes / phazing, it is put below Skarm. Magneton takes away Skarmory's polarizing properties and Forretress's ability to take over the hazard game (usually) and will make something like a Sub Salac Groudon or Heracross or even and Aero really happy. Magneton really sucks on its own though and will lead to MU issues. Deo-D is probably the most reliable Spikes user the tier has while not being a complete blob thanks to Knock Off with the Toxic set being highly obnoxious as well. It is put down here because certain Pokemon above it take advantage of it really easily, short Taunt really sucks, and it has massive opportunity cost of locking you out of Deoxys-A.
Dusclops and Gengar end up here and next to each other being the effective spinblockers that get to do other things effectively. Dusclops is best for the longer game (usually) though it is effected by Spikes and comes with the added benefit of both threatening Deo-A and having a Pursuit for it on the way out. Gengar is incredibly hard for fatter teams to deal with between its fast Taunt, Wisp, Spikes immunity, and its wide coverage. It is put below Clops because Clops can afford to miss a couple Wisps against Snorlax whereas Gengar can't. Rayquaza is here because it usually functions like noticeably weaker Deo-A though sometimes the bulk is sometimes nice for opposing Deo-A. It can work alongside Deo-A or a Deo-D giving Deo-A freedom to forego Espeed and allowing the use of Deo-D at all which is a small plus for it. Omastar is a funny mon due to Swift Swim, High Power Water moves in rain, Spikes access, and Espeed resistance though these traits are somewhat difficult to make use of effectively. Dugtrio is really good at leaving a hole in an offensive and defensive backbones alike but does have trouble getting in and tends to cause notable MU issues is one isn't careful. Aero is another Espeed resistant cleaner but it is venerable any of Deo-A's other attacks and usually competes with it for a teamslot while possibly causing MU issues. STAB Rock Slide is nightmarish with proper support. Wob WILL cause MU issues with a team but can be tailored to reliably remove at least one of just about any Pokemon category you want so the hole can be taken advantage of offensively. Celebi is also a strong pivot but uses Leech Seed to cushion blows as opposed to Wish. It is sun balance-only mon with only one team it truly fits but that one team is rather strong. It can also BP SDs to teammates but those types of team tend to have quite a few flaws to them. Umbreon is similar to SD pass Celebi in that it is sun only, what it does (trap pass) is very very strong, and it will always leave your team with severe holes.
Lead Mew, Exegg, and Salamence are similar in that they do one thing well on certain team archetypes but the teamslot cost tend to make the teams weak to something or leaves them outclassed most of the time in Salamence's case. SD Mew is funny and potentially ruinous but is a bit of an explosion prediction game against Groudon unfortunately. Ninjask and Smeargle both lead off offense teams with one Spiking and Sporing and the other passing Speed and potentially SDs to teammates though both of them will cause problems with certain team archetypes. Qwilfish is cool because it Spikes and bombs but has weak attacks to work with outside of Self-Destruct and competes heavily with Omastar's superior attacking profile and typing. Ttar turns off Leftovers before weather is overwritten and can do a couple of cool things with its movesets but all of them are very hard to take advantage of properly. Its weaknesses really show. Kabutops is basically super Aerodactyl reliant on SS and can pull a nasty SD Flail set out of the blue. It has really bad Groudon and Metagross issues.
Rain Dish Ludicolo is a decent Kyogre SI but will falter against sub variants. It can also make use of SS since Groudon wants nothing to do with it but it isn't super strong and competes with the better SS users. Deo-S has the massive opportunity cost of locking you out of Deo-A, doesn't have the resilience to use Spikes in places Deo-D can, and has the absolute worst 4mss of the three. The best thing it can really do over the other two is Spikes like Deo-D and fast Pursuit Deo-As. Victreebel could probably be higher as it actually has decent power for a chloro user thanks to Sleep Powder and SD making its STAB Sludge Bomb a weapon against the eons and Ho-Oh. Its resistance and bulk profile make Exegg look like a defensive monster, however. Slaking is stupid in every sense the word has. It hits stupid hard and you can't be stupid when using it as it has the dumbest set of drawbacks a Pokemon can have. These drawbacks include but are not limited to giving every sub user including the 3 extremely dangerous Salac users the freest sub ever while also getting blanked by anything that has Protect. Otherwise the gorillasloth just smashes everything with Magneton in tow.
I made this team for Adv Ubers because it was on the ROA spotlight. There is only one special mon on the team, so I will cut to the chase (the other mons do what they normally would). Slapcune. Broken. Simple. Slapcune is a hax mon, obviously. It usually secures games late game, as many mons can switch into it (although they will be toxiced, so they don’t switch in for free). If you intend to use Slapcune early game, you have to be sure to toxic substitute mons, as they beat Slapcune if not toxiced (the most common mon to switch into Slapcune is kyogre, so you often get a toxic onto it).
Edit: I also made this Mewtwo set. You probably come in on a defensive mon and sub. Taunt stops opposing substitute. Taunt and mud-slap combo forces opponents into a corner, where they struggle to break your substitute with accuracy drops and cannot use status or phasing moves to force you out etc. Toxic is there to actually do damage. The evs allow for 101 subs and fast taunt, the leftovers can go into either spdef or pdef. Although this set is not there to stall as much as the Slapcune set, some might think it is more fitted to the meta game. (untested)
Simply sitting on it with Snorlax and hitting it over and over again will work, same thing applies to Metagross.
Latias, if it is not carrying Roar, will have Refresh, and since Latias sucks, it will lose to just about every other Calm Minder in the 1v1.
Forretress can come in and eat any hit handily, meaning you can just come in and click Explosion.
Blissey can either be broken and carry Sing, or Toxic it and force it to click Refresh. This allows you to pivot around it a bit better, getting you free switch-ins to your otherwise frail attackers. Should you have Toxic + Snatch, you will be able to hard wall the Latias and prevent it from clicking Refresh ever.
Choice Band Deoxys-Attack, Spell Tag Deoxys-Attack, Heracross, and Choice Band Ho-Oh work well as revenge killers. Note that these need some amount of chip.
You could always trap it with Wobbuffet if that floats your boat, just Encore it into whatever then beat it down.
Teams will often use a Latias as a check to Groudon; using your Groudon to pull in the Latias and hitting it with a +2 HP Ghost is a good way to effectively remove it from the game.