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Advanced Tiers Revisited revisited
- Thread starter chaos
- Start date
Besides that, the prevalence of bulky waters has steadily curtailed Blaziken usage (along with fire type usage in general) since 2004. If anything, Blaziken's stats would actually put it into the OU Tier, but we know it's a little more detailed than that.
The current updated list looks pretty much on the ball. There are only a couple of changes I'd make.
Umbreon usage has gone down a lot in my experience... I don't know if that's the same for anyone else. I find that more people use Dusclops instead, perhaps because Dusclops can easily switch in on Focus Punches and Will-O-Wisp? Maybe, maybe not. Still I think he would be better off BL.
Prepare to laugh but I think in time Crobat may also need to be bumped up... I'm seeing them on quite a lot of teams and the number of them seems to keep growing. Crobat usually kills a ton of annoying OUs, like Gengar, Starmie with Shadow Ball, Sceptile, Ludicolo, Breloom and Celebi with Sludge Bomb and Blaziken, Heracross with Aerial Ace, this being with his usual choice band set, and depending on his hidden power he can cause a lot of trouble for Tyrannitar. With his amazing speed he's also great at finishing off pokemon. This is why I think it's usage might have increased.
It's big problems are against the steels and water tanks with Ice moves. Crobat's stats aren't really that amazing, apart from his speed. His atk is alright though and does the job if he has choice band (which I'd say is the best item to give a Crobat anyway). He isn't so great at switching in either. Maybe he should remain BL and he probably will, but I have seen a lot of teams using Crobat recently, a lot more than I used to see. It's not the best sweeper but his speed and movepool allow him to kill some commonly used psychics, fighters and grass types in OU. That probably doesn't justify why I think Crobat should be moved up but anyway that's just what I think.
Umbreon usage has gone down a lot in my experience... I don't know if that's the same for anyone else. I find that more people use Dusclops instead, perhaps because Dusclops can easily switch in on Focus Punches and Will-O-Wisp? Maybe, maybe not. Still I think he would be better off BL.
Prepare to laugh but I think in time Crobat may also need to be bumped up... I'm seeing them on quite a lot of teams and the number of them seems to keep growing. Crobat usually kills a ton of annoying OUs, like Gengar, Starmie with Shadow Ball, Sceptile, Ludicolo, Breloom and Celebi with Sludge Bomb and Blaziken, Heracross with Aerial Ace, this being with his usual choice band set, and depending on his hidden power he can cause a lot of trouble for Tyrannitar. With his amazing speed he's also great at finishing off pokemon. This is why I think it's usage might have increased.
It's big problems are against the steels and water tanks with Ice moves. Crobat's stats aren't really that amazing, apart from his speed. His atk is alright though and does the job if he has choice band (which I'd say is the best item to give a Crobat anyway). He isn't so great at switching in either. Maybe he should remain BL and he probably will, but I have seen a lot of teams using Crobat recently, a lot more than I used to see. It's not the best sweeper but his speed and movepool allow him to kill some commonly used psychics, fighters and grass types in OU. That probably doesn't justify why I think Crobat should be moved up but anyway that's just what I think.
The difference is all of these pokemon are reliable walled by common types of pokemon. Dragonite is somewhat of an exception since it is highly versatile, but it pays in lack of STAB and a trait limited to tanking a hit from Aerodactyl at near-full health. ;/ Blaziken, however, is about impossible to wall completely. It hits bulky waters as hard as CB Salamence without the caveats of being locked into one attack, inability to switch in a sudden resistance, or being BUFFETED BY THE SANDSTORM (with Leftovers). Salamence and Gyarados can still be hit fairly hard by Rock Slide (as in 3HKO range) or can be specifically addressed with HP Ice and Thunderpunch, respectively. With its alternate type being elemental, it crushes non-Skarmory (since most people plan for it anyway) physical walls like Weezing and Dusclops. Immune to WoW and ridiculously deadly under Blaze. Focus Punch can severely dent things on switch-in, most notably bulky waters.
And hey, our tier list says Blaziken is already standard. Good, because it belongs there. Out of this particular list, I'd even say it's the most deserving of the bunch. Dragonite is argubale, and I would say Moltres and Magneton need to be moved down to BL. (Moltres is too one-dimensional, Magneton is really just a bad pokemon anyway that is used solely as a Skarm-killing gimmick.)
And not that anyone will continue to listen to me, but to keep going: Swalot, Glalie, Girafarig, and maybe Raticate should move up to UU. Playing off the same gimmick that gets Magneton considered standard, Nosepass could too. ;/
Tangela is just reeeeeeeeeeally bad. Is double powder and Ground resistance really good enough to even get it placed in UU? That combination of HP and SpD makes me cry, not to mention an offense surpassed by Blissey.
Tentacruel has potential for BL status. It's a rather unique but potent counter to the traditional bulky water, plus possesses two excellent traits in "Leech Seed is for (BAN ME PLEASE)" and "lol legendary."
Aggron has potential for BL status too. It has so much defense you could actually Counter back quite a few EQs and nearly all BBs, and the 4x Flying and Normal resists are killer. Ice resistance is severely useful as well, and it's a team player ever since it was given T-Wave.
Golem? I've always been a firm believer of pairing him up with Rhydon, although Rhydon getting Megahorn and Swords Dance might just be too much for Explosion to compete against in a general sense now, so I won't say his lower status is completely off course.
Regirock is a godly tank, Explodes, and shares a characteristic with T-Tar in that it doesn't fold to Special attacks like a wet paper napkin. Having it in BL is insulting, especially when garbage like Steelix and Magneton are allowed to be considered "standard."
Steelix is crap. It just can't hurt anything. Although this is one I probably won't get much support for, Steelix is totally BL by my standards.
Celebi and Jirachi should be moved into the Uber tier amirite?
Some of your points are good, but irrelevant, so I'll repost how tiers are determined.
1) OK, first we have ubers. These are the Pokemon that are considered "broken", regardless of how much they are used. Everything else is placed in OU.
2) OU is then divided into how much Pokemon are used. At some arbitrary point, the line is cut and those above are OU, regardless of power, those below are UU, regardless of power.
3) Find the UU Pokemon that are considered too powerful for UU, place these Pokemon in BL, regardless of usage.
4) I'm not sure how NU would work. It could be based on how often Pokemon are used in UU, how strong they are (making UU effectively the uber / BL tier of NU), or how often they are used in OU (with things that make random appearances being UU, those that are never there are NU).
What this means is that arguments for moving a Pokemon to UU based on how weak it is do not matter. Arguments suggesting moving Pokemon to OU from BL based on power are pointless.
1) OK, first we have ubers. These are the Pokemon that are considered "broken", regardless of how much they are used. Everything else is placed in OU.
2) OU is then divided into how much Pokemon are used. At some arbitrary point, the line is cut and those above are OU, regardless of power, those below are UU, regardless of power.
3) Find the UU Pokemon that are considered too powerful for UU, place these Pokemon in BL, regardless of usage.
4) I'm not sure how NU would work. It could be based on how often Pokemon are used in UU, how strong they are (making UU effectively the uber / BL tier of NU), or how often they are used in OU (with things that make random appearances being UU, those that are never there are NU).
What this means is that arguments for moving a Pokemon to UU based on how weak it is do not matter. Arguments suggesting moving Pokemon to OU from BL based on power are pointless.
Aggron BL? Aggron is shit. The best it is going to do is wall CBers, and the UU metagame isn't about CBers as much anymore. You might get a surprise kill with Counter, but afterwards you will be too weak to do anything else. Solrock is a far better physical wall in UU than Aggron will ever be. Thunder Wave doesn't help much at all tbh, it just makes things that fear Toxic want to switch into it even more (those are the common switches anyway).
Tentacruel is also totally unbroken for UU. Use a Feraligatr, a Slowking, a Quagsire, a bulky Kangaskhan... a lot of things can handle the fragile Tentacruel.
Regarding NU, the only thing I think should happen is Tangela/Bellossom to NU. They aren't used in UU play ever and they aren't 'broken' either. ST Kecleon, Torkoal, Magcargo etc can all counter them very easily. Hitmonchan which basically doesn't even exist in UU could be moved down too. I see why you might not want him there, but things like Pelipper/Swalot take him down pretty well who are both pretty much staple on NU teams anyway. Also, I liked Corsola Cup's NU list, it was different from the standard NU tiers but it worked out fine and nothing not even the mighty Kingler or Hitmonchan was broken!
Tentacruel is also totally unbroken for UU. Use a Feraligatr, a Slowking, a Quagsire, a bulky Kangaskhan... a lot of things can handle the fragile Tentacruel.
Regarding NU, the only thing I think should happen is Tangela/Bellossom to NU. They aren't used in UU play ever and they aren't 'broken' either. ST Kecleon, Torkoal, Magcargo etc can all counter them very easily. Hitmonchan which basically doesn't even exist in UU could be moved down too. I see why you might not want him there, but things like Pelipper/Swalot take him down pretty well who are both pretty much staple on NU teams anyway. Also, I liked Corsola Cup's NU list, it was different from the standard NU tiers but it worked out fine and nothing not even the mighty Kingler or Hitmonchan was broken!
Then Charizard should be Standard, right? Everyone an their brother uses it. Well, it's not. It's not good enough. The tiers, at least currently, are based on some balance between usage and power. You are wrong.
Mr. G80, I don't think Aggron or Tentacruel are "too good for UU." I'm suggesting they have potential good uses in standard play and THAT is why they could be considered BL. Solrock is awesome, but its stats are just too weak to be of the same use as Aggron. (As an aside, Aggron also has Rock resistance, awesome.) Tentacruel will get whooped by Swampert, but it's an excellent counter to Suicune/Vaporeon/Milotic along with two good traits to choose between and potential Mirror Coat surprises. Fera/Slowking/Quagsire, on the other hand, would be largely useless in standard play even if there was a sudden surge in Tentacruel use.
And Kangaskhan is sexy, he's the most likely to keep my fun team in competition when I play with it. :[
Belllossom isn't bad enough to be NU. If you're going purely on usage, well there's quite a few things nobody really uses. Bellossom isn't bad at all, people just generally prefer Vileplume because of Aromatherapy and the potential STAB Sludge Bomb. Otherwise it still has Vileplume's moves, it still has fairly high stats, and it has Ground resistance. Hitmonchan just got screwed with a crappy trait. People just use him less because 'lee and 'top have more specialized usage (the former is an offensive powerhouse, the latter is a potential tank). Hitmonchan is too similar to them to be considered "bad."
you don't count ''fanboys'' etc. More like the usage of a poke in tourneys and other competetive stuff. Charizard isn't used much. Obi is right lol >_>
Edit: Aggron has 4x eq weak and 4x fighting weak which is why its uu.
Why are you even argueing lol =/
Edit: Aggron has 4x eq weak and 4x fighting weak which is why its uu.
Why are you even argueing lol =/
umbreon is used way less then espeon to it should be bl
Wobbuffet is banned for a few good reasons.
1. Pokemon which meet other which when meeting one another cause draws screws with the metagame. (if a wobbuffet meets another wobbuffet you need something like 47 critical struggles iirc)
2. It's uncounterable. You can't switch in on it for obvious reasons, and it quite literally counters everything it meets. If it can't counter/MC you, it encores a non damaging move and lets DDtar get a free DD in, or a CB medicham a free focus punch for example. (this isnt strictly speaking true, toxic dugtrio can counter it; would you use toxic dugtrio in competitive play?)
3. It's an ugly waste of a pokemon slot which gamefreak shouldn't have created.
1. Pokemon which meet other which when meeting one another cause draws screws with the metagame. (if a wobbuffet meets another wobbuffet you need something like 47 critical struggles iirc)
2. It's uncounterable. You can't switch in on it for obvious reasons, and it quite literally counters everything it meets. If it can't counter/MC you, it encores a non damaging move and lets DDtar get a free DD in, or a CB medicham a free focus punch for example. (this isnt strictly speaking true, toxic dugtrio can counter it; would you use toxic dugtrio in competitive play?)
3. It's an ugly waste of a pokemon slot which gamefreak shouldn't have created.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
Toxic Porygon2 also works, but the coolest way is Calm Mind Gardevoir. Substitute, CM up, and attack away. Then watch your opponent struggle with a +6 CMed Gardevoir behind a Sub.
1. easy, no leftovers. like JAA
2. so what if ddtar gets a free dd in? swampert will still scare it off. encore only has 8pp, its not like it can do that forever. also, what if it encored a toxic? plus, if wobb was common, and toxic dugtrio could stop it, why wouldn't you use that in competitive play?
3. what?
I can more than counter Wobbuffet, I can instantly win games if you use Wobbuffet. Substitute, Calm Mind, Psychic, Thunderbolt Gardevoir @ Salac or Leftovers. Or you could add Pursuit to something like Tyranitar and do ~70% to it, meaning it can't really come in on anything ever again.
You could use the same argument for Dugtrio being uncounterable, because you can't switch in on it.