Advanced Tiers Revisited revisited

[Steeler]

Having looked at the standards, I have seen maybe 3 Sceptiles in my past 50 battles, I think it should be BL. Yeah it can substall w/e but I don't see it used often enough to warrant OU status.

 

[Mr.E]

I can more than counter Wobbuffet, I can instantly win games if you use Wobbuffet. Substitute, Calm Mind, Psychic, Thunderbolt Gardevoir @ Salac or Leftovers. Or you could add Pursuit to something like Tyranitar and do ~70% to it, meaning it can't really come in on anything ever again.

You could use the same argument for Dugtrio being uncounterable, because you can't switch in on it.

Well for one, no sane person will use Substitute on Gardevoir except for the specific purpose of "countering" a Wobbuffet that just went and killed something on your team. It's a very specific, limited counter, along with its lesser cousin, Sharpen Porygon2. ;/ Obviously it can't Mirror Coat Dark pokemon or Counter Ghosts, but neither of those are particularly common (Dusclops sometimes has Shadow Ball, Gengar rarely, Seismic Toss or Night Shade will take ages to kill Wobbuffet; Dark is basically reserved to Boah or the rare Houndoom) and they can't actually switch in to Wobbuffet until it kills something already (then runs off, which only Pursuit Houndoom can do much about) or sets up free turns with Encore and it runs off before you can do anything about it.

There's a big difference between Wobbuffet and Dugtrio. Dugtrio, first off, doesn't trap ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. There's almost always at least one pokemon on the opposing team it can't trap, if not two or three. Dugtrio is also purely offensive. If it doesn't kill, it's probably dead that turn. Wobbuffet can take a hit, counter it back for a probable OHKO, and unless it was something exceptionally strong like Metagross or CB 'mence he'll be able to repeat that once or twice more. Since you can't switch, the only way to avoid getting owned is to use a non-attacking move which just gets you Encored and sets up free turns for their switch-in. You really can't discount these free turns; even if you have the otherwise optimum counter for a pokemon, CB Salamence eventually wears down a bulky water if it gets no time to recover health, T-Tar can do the same to Swampert, and so on, especially if they're using Spikes too. Once it's low on health or out of the way, or if you just don't have that pokemon in the first place, the Wobbuffet-user is set up for an easy sweep that you have almost no possibility of countering. Kinda like how Magneton screws you if Skarm is your only physical wall, except Wobbuffet acts like a mini-Mag for EVERYTHING. Most of the more common pokemon can wear down their "counters," so having said "counter" isn't a fool-proof solution to all the free turns Wobbuffet is giving to them.

Dugtrio can't do much but scavenge for kills on pokemon with low health or a weakness and low initial Defense/HP. It's basically removed from the team completely until you have an opening to get it in the game and steal a cheap kill, and most of that time that's just after you lose a pokemon yourself because Dugtrio's extremely fragile and has very few opportunities to actually switch in the middle of a turn. Wobbuffet, however, supplements the rest of your team, eliminating most heavy offensive threats (by, you know, killing it) plus giving you free turns for whatever the hell you want (Wish recovery, a Sub or Focus Punch, a DD or Swords Dance, a heavy CB blow). And quite the opposite of Dugtrio, there's very few things it CAN'T switch into and there aren't any pokemon immune to its trapping ability.

Plus there's just the fact Wob-Wob is absolutely retarded. When Dugtrios trap each other, it's over in one turn so there's no real inconvenience.

 

[Animerocks]

Having looked at the standards, I have seen maybe 3 Sceptiles in my past 50 battles, I think it should be BL. Yeah it can substall w/e but I don't see it used often enough to warrant OU status.

Don't tell them, then they will all start using it again ;\.

 

[mmartin]

Do remember, the tiers are meant for power, not for usage, even though the names suggests otherwise. Sceptile is a good Endeavorer along with Subseed. His power isn't low enough to be BL, IMO.

 

[Altmer]

Actually, the tiers ARE about usage.... but since usage and power are linked, the Pokemon on top are generally the most powerful anyway.

 

[Mekkah]

MrE, it's possible for UU Pokemon to have standard potential, but as long as they're not too powerful for UU, they don't make the BL tier. It's that simple.

 

[Muchabi]

Why was Shuckle moved to UU?

In NU, Shuckle can be a very powerful poke.

In UU, it's complete dogshit.

It's hardly broken in NU, but it's at least useful, unlike in every other meta.

Shuckle works fine in UU... thing is, going down the NU list, I don't see anything that can kill it. 252 HP, 252 SD, defense curl, and then defensive stats are just through the roof. (That's 600+ on both defenses) Add rest to take care of status, and it's over, and the best you can do is send Ariados, Swalot, or Venemoth in to take the Toxic, which then it just encores whatever you do...

I never thought I'd use the word dominant with shuckle, but in NU there's just not enough steel/poisons to take toxic, or enough waters to wash it away via weakness. So up to UU it goes, where Walrein, Tentacruel, Lanturn, and surfing Raichus (lawlz) counter it.

Oh, and as a random thought, Shuckle gives substituting/stat-up/whatever pokemon a bit of hell with encore... a shuckle stalled my BP team pretty bad.


On a completely different note, someone explain to me how Swellow would rip UU apart... And how is Scyther (UU) inferior to Zangoose (BL)

 

[parrot]

I agree with above posters, that Sceppy should be BL. It doesn't ahve the power to compete with current OU teams, even the noobs are learning how to counter it easily. And it's best use is stalling really, not viable.

 

[Great Sage]

Muchabi, Zangoose has far more hitting power and better movepool than Scyther. Also, Scyther has a relatively poor typing.

 

[gene]

Oh are you serious. Please tell me how Shuckle needs a "counter". 10 base attack and Toxic... anything and I mean ANYTHING can take it one on one. Please don't move it up to UU, and I assure you it IS dogshit in UU.

A lot of pokes have Sub/Sleeptalk in NU anyway so "Shuckle" isn't even a problem.

 

[Muchabi]

Uh, encore is usually the first move for each opponent of Shuckle? They sub, they're screwed over a bit.

About the ANYTHING taking it one-on-one... other than water attacks and poison/steel types, which I touched already, nothing'll do enough damage to a Shuckle with rest before toxic kills them off.

So oh joy, I guess EVERY single team'll have to carry a sTalker just to survive shuckle in NU. If they try to set up on Shuckle, they get encored and the shuckle player gets a free switch to whatever will rip that pokemon apart. If they sub, same thing. If they attack, Shuckle can either stay in and take the hits, or encore and switch to something resistant. Anything I missed?

Oh, and I doubt whatever sleeptalker it is can do enough damage to this Shuckle, unless it's a water type.

Shuckle@Leftovers
Careful +SD -SA
252 HP, 6 DEF, 252 SD
244 HP, 497 DEF, 614 SD
Toxic
Encore
Defense Curl
Rest

Enjoy, the shuckle I use. Defense Curl will cut off all physical attacks, 614 SD is highest possible naturally. Pelipper, the strongest STAB surf in NU, does 39%-45%, meaning anything weaker does less.

Why are you so eager to get Shuckle to NU anyways?

EDIT: Thinking about it for even longer, if the sTalker were put to sleep, fat chance of that happening again. And if it was self-induced by rest, Encore = screwed.

 

[Flub]

rollout/defense curl shuckle ftw

 

[gene]

clearly you do not understand that shuckle isnt broken in any way in nu. it doesn't do anything at all come on, and NOBODY uses it.

 

[greenbay4]

Why are we having a discussion of whether Shuckle will be used well or not. It's rather ridiculous. It's a big wall with Toxic and perhaps Encore. IT DOES NOTHING ELSE. Really, it doesn't. And that's not much.

 

[Flub]

New discussion: Why is dragonite OU instead of BL? I have never seen a dragonite in any competitive team out of my last 50 battles. Salamence is a better DDer, and subpunching dragonite gets countered way too easily.

 

[Tazzler]

Personally, Salemence is a better CBer while Dragonite is a better DDer and Mixed Attacker.

 

[Muchabi]

Yeah, drag's a better DD if you look at it closely... better defenses (fine, argue all you want about factoring in intimidation or whatever, but you're likely going to be facing a special sweeper coming to ice beam you out of the sky...), and thunderbolt/thunder are better attacks than salamence's fire blast, if you can just hit the water coming in on the switch, take drag out, repeat... and then as soon as that's dealt with sweep.

Dragonite's also more variable, but whatever...

And also, he and Miltank are the only bellers I can think of in standard play that no one clauses. Well, at least I haven't seen NO DRAGONITE NO MILTANK NO BELLER NO AROMA NO NATURAL CURE(Blissey and Celebi are like... yeah...)

And of course, if you're going by the whole how-much-it's-used thing, I've seen enough... more than the average poke, which is what defines OU.

Just my own thoughts.

 

[Jackal]

Can we for the love of God move Walrein out of the uu metagame. If your uu team does not carry an electric pokemon with an electric attack there is simply no way to beat it.

If a "true counter" to a pokemon is one that can switch in on it and force it to switch out, then uu has a whopping ONE (1) Walrein counter, and that is Lanturn. Manetric/Electabuzz cannot take two surfs. It simply toxics Hypno and can beat Muk. The only other pokemon I can fathom that can take it is Tentacruel, and that really isnt the best counter in the world.

Please move it to BL thank you :p

 

[Great Sage]

@Muchabi: Why do you even give a fuck about noobish clauses that some people make?

@Jackal: Tentacruel isn't even a counter to begin with IMO. It can either get instantly EQed, or Encored using Swords Dance or Sludge Bomb (which doesn't hurt that much when un-boosted), and then get owned by the switch-in.

 

[gene]

Yes I agree with Jackal. Tenta shits on Walrein though :[ Earthquake is very uncommon and so is Encore. Standard is IB/Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic

 

[Slobroking]

walrein isn't that bad imo ._. It has dependable counters (azumarill, lanturn, poliwrath, tentacruel w/o quake, slowking) unlike things like Granbull and Kanga. yes it CAN have toxic, but everything can. Stay UU imo

 

[arielby]

I can more than counter Wobbuffet, I can instantly win games if you use Wobbuffet. Substitute, Calm Mind, Psychic, Thunderbolt Gardevoir @ Salac or Leftovers. Or you could add Pursuit to something like Tyranitar and do ~70% to it, meaning it can't really come in on anything ever again.

You could use the same argument for Dugtrio being uncounterable, because you can't switch in on it.

You Correct,
after wobby kills a poke,sent out Gradevior,sub,CM until the 6TH,then
TB wobby to dealth & sweep!!!

 

[Deck Knight]

Shuckle is LOL in every metagame. Toxic and Encore are the only thing it has, which means it can't do anything to all the Poisons that inhabit NU. If you ever tried Defense Curl + Rollout, Swalot would just switch in and Counter you back to hell. There is also Whiscash who can easily just Rest off anything Shuckle tries, Sleep Talk Relicanth, Leech Seed Roselia...

Really, Shuckle can't do squat in NU.

Walrein gets squarely owned by Poliwrath, it craps on Ice Beam and Earthquake, it can send Walrein to sleep with Hypnosis, then wipe it off the face of the earth with Focus Punch. The Cursing Walrein just invites Ampharos to come in and Thunderbolt it back to hell, Meganium can outstall it with Leech Seed and Synthesis. Mantine also walls it handily, although it can't do much back.

Not to Mention CM Grumpig. CB Hitmonlee can HJK it back to hell or Subversal it. Walrein is a freaking Water/Ice type, use a fricking Fighting/Rock/Electric/Grass attack already. This is not to say Walrein is bad, it is quite gg, but certainly not too good for UU. I'd kick Tentacruel or Omastar out long before I'd consider Walrein for ban.

 

[The Plant]

walrein really isn't even the hardest water to counter in uu, that would be slowking. Keep it UU imo.

 

[greenbay4]

Too many damn conversations going on at the same time. Topics should be created for discussing the tier of a pokemon.