Tournaments ADVPL V Format Discussion

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BIG WILL said:
DOU is not that active at the moment - there's worry in the DOU community that signups for tours like Doubles Derby (which ADVPL overlaps with iirc?) etc. will be either bare minimum or not high enough to keep the tier in the tour. The tour scene is also largely dead for DOU right now - last year there was Derby, ADVPL, and two individuals, the most recent of which ended like six months ago with barely any interest in the tier since. Encouraging zee and Grandmas Cookin to chime in as well if they have more to say since they're far, far more tapped in than i am.
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This take is not entirely accurate. While there haven't been individual ADV DOU tours for a few months now, the tier is constantly developing in team tours (including more casual ones like HGPL). There tends to not be much discussion of DOU oldgens when there isn't a tour for that format going on, but I don't think that's more pronounced for ADV than other formats (the opposite, in fact). Most recently, ADV DOU featured in the DOU Oldgens Invitationals, a classic-like format where ADV showed up in the majority of tour sets. Since the explosion ban a few months ago, there has been significant teambuilding development, as evidenced by the variety of metagame adaptations on display in Invitationals. I would strongly dissuade cutting it from ADVPL, especially since it is a significant source of meta development.

Other posters have rightly pointed out that this slot should be a bo3 - the ADV doubles mechanics make each individual game somewhat volatile, but the pace of play and centralization makes building not too laborious each week. I can post a list of active DOU players later down the line if that's helpful.
 
8 teams, 12 slots
ADV OU 9x
ADV OU Bo3 3x

I will refuse to elaborate

On the actual suggestion so peeps dont kill me
8 teams, 12 slots
ADV OU 4x
ADV OU bo3 2x
ADV Ubers 1x
ADV UU 1x
ADV RU 1x
ADV NU (Glalie-less test) 1x
ADV PU 1x
ADV LC 1x

I think 12 slots is doable, i honestly think id like some more OU representation as the tier is v popular and i had unfortunate situations where X player that deserved to play didnt get to bc there was too little OU slots and it was literally too stacked, theres a lot of OU ppl and i think getting as much of them to play is best, made RU>DOU but if im being honest do whatever w that slot, but i havent seen ppl be too excited for DOU and i heard ppl actually like RU (Which i didnt know lol) and it might be good to test out em now. NU should be glalieless imo for what triangles has alr said in his excellent post.

2 bo3s is based AF, i dont care, make it 2x Bo3. Here for a good time
 
I'd again like to advocate for including ZU in this iteration of ADVPL. I want to preface this by saying I'm fully aware that the chances of ZU getting slotted are slim if we continue to stick with 8x10. I am unsure of what the potential managers want for slot numbers, but as a manager of past team tours, 8x12, while optimal, seems like a lot. However, I think that ADV ZU not only deserves a spot but has shown that it's more than capable of self-sustaining.

ADV ZU has seen significant growth since last year's thread. We had over 700 signups for our money tour, ~200 people in our Discord server, and two ROA ladders since. Moreover, our tier is stable and has a wide range of resources available, with more on the way considering our revamp of our smog dex analysis. Our metagame is stable, playable, diverse, and fun from what I've heard. We've made leaps and bounds as a metagame in hopes of our inclusion into this tournament by fostering an active player base. There will be no player overlap argument for our metagame like there was in last year's thread. I am extremely confident in ADV ZU's ability to offer this tournament a fun and, more importantly, competitive slot.

Taking away one of the four OUs is probably the worst decision that could be made. If DOU is cut and ZU misses inclusion again this year, I would argue for a fifth OU slot. It's not a secret that ADV OU is one of the most popular OUs. Adding a fifth OU slot would make the most sense over ZU or RU if DOU gets cut. However, I'm biased, so I still have to side with the metagame I lead. If these options are off the table, I would be most open to a 2nd UU slot, as UU is genuinely fun and diverse (I've been talking to Heysup a lot). Regardless of the outcome, I look forward to potentially playing/managing this year's iteration of ADVPL.

As someone who would like to play this year, my ideal format would be 8x12
ADV OU 4x
ADV OU bo3
ADV Ubers 1x
ADV UU 1x
ADV RU 1x
ADV NU 1x
ADV PU 1x
ADV ZU 1x
ADV LC 1x


As someone who's managed team tours before, my ideal format would be 8x10
ADV OU 3x
ADV OU bo3
ADV Ubers 1x
ADV UU 1x
ADV NU 1x
ADV PU 1x
ADV ZU 1x
ADV LC 1x
 
I feel like this is an opening that I would dare to say, but Zu or Ru over Dou, given that the first mentioned have greater activity and support, from then on I settle for the other levels, Lc and Pu seem to me to be more explorable and recent levels, it will be interesting to see

Edit: Likewise Dou seems fine to me if it's bo3
 
I have a few opinions but they are just opinions and I don't have the time these days to search for examples.

1. I have felt that more than 2x8 OU slots the OU games have a pretty big drop off.

2. Nu is terrible.

3. Ubers, pu, Zu lc and dou are crazy random and volatile (in that order in increasing amounts).

4. I think RU is slightly more appealing than any of the above noted options. I would also naturally want to bring back the second UU slot.
 
OKAY

For the record, banning Glalie from ADV NU for this tournament is 100% incorrect and should not even be discussed. Glalie is not currently banned from ADV NU, and therefore, because this is THE de facto ADV team tour, it should be legal.

Bughouse said:
gee i wonder why the tier regulars didn't sign up for it... what a clown show
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This is also a huge proponent and should not be ignored either. By removing Glalie, you are actively isolating and removing many veteran ADV NU players from the pool. Its frankly stupid to argue that ADV NU should be played without Glalie for ADVPL.
 
ADV lc is definitely a tier of all time, but I enjoyed it quite a lot when I played it and enjoy seeing it in lc team tournaments. tiering action has improved it a lot since last edition of the tournament, with thunder wave ban making the paralysis spam + substitute fishing + setup cheese a lot worse which was one of the main things that scared me away from signing up for last advpl. Porygon is also banned but thats less important to me. I would like to see ADV lc included in this ADVPL because I would like to sign up to play it. ADV LC is a very volatile tier due to compressed speed tiers and lack of bulk, but not to the point where I am likely to lose to interactions I cannot prevent or lack information to play around like it became last year for the adv pl meta.
 
BP said:
OKAY

For the record, banning Glalie from ADV NU for this tournament is 100% incorrect and should not even be discussed. Glalie is not currently banned from ADV NU, and therefore, because this is THE de facto ADV team tour, it should be legal.



This is also a huge proponent and should not be ignored either. By removing Glalie, you are actively isolating and removing many veteran ADV NU players from the pool. Its frankly stupid to argue that ADV NU should be played without Glalie for ADVPL.
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It's possible ADV NU should be played without Glalie not because it would be a test but because there should be some sort of vote after ALT PL concludes to perhaps make ADV NU without Glalie the actual ADV NU, or at least settle that decision once and for all given the constant push for it. And then we don't have hear these arguments anymore when that issue is decided.
 
Last year's format did a lot right, with 8 teams and 10 slots, featuring LC, PU, NU, UU, 4ou (including a bo3), Ubers and DOU.
LC and PU were added, and both fielded competitive pools and had a generally solid public opinion. Talks of cutting them feel extremely arbitrary and silly.
8 teams was clearly fantastic, removing issues from the previous 6 team formats with the bye week, awkward main season and such.
My main agenda - expanding the format to 12 slots.
My proposed format:
Ubers
4OU
Bo3 OU
UU
RU
NU
PU
LC
Last (Sixth OU, ZU, DOU) in preference order.

RU has featured in tournament play throughout the year as Amity mentioned, featuring RUGL, RUBD, RUWC. The playerbase is largely diverse from the rest of the ADV Lower Tiers community (meaning that it won't particularly thin the pools for the other tiers), and it has a lot of support from top players (even in this thread, Heysup and Fruhdazi both posting for its inclusion). If the primary criteria for being involved in this tournament is the tier being able to field a competitive playerbase, ADV RU has that in spades. It's proven to be competitive and healthy over the course of multiple tournaments recently. ADV RU Circuit playoffs are on right now even, putting some of the top competitors on full display. RU's inclusion in this tournament seems like a slam dunk.


Between the amount of strong and competent OU players on last year's benches, and the over 700 participant Revival tournament featured recently, coupled with ADV Seasonal having far and away the most signups compared to any other oldgen (over 250 compared to DPP and BW not cresting the 200 mark) the argument for OU slots to increase seems unassailable. In my eyes, the playerbase would be able to support 50 OU starters with ease (in a 6OU format with 8 teams we have 48), let alone the 40 that come with 5OU. Remaining at 4OU in this great expansive era of ADV seems extremely unrepresentative of the playerbase, and it wouldn't lower the quality of the tour much if at all, I believe, to expand the slots.

With RU's inclusion, and a fifth OU at minimum, we're left at eleven slots. Twelve, if you count doubles. However...
Doubles has its inherent issues in a predominantly singles team-tour. It's hard to prep it as a teammate or manager, hard to sub into the slot or flex into it, due to how esoteric it is when laid alongside singles tournaments. Doubles takes away from that part of the team-tour experience by sticking your doubles player (or players) on an island. This is compounded by the facts that:
There is minimal overlap of ADV DOU players playing other tiers.
There is a dearth of resources for the tier, raising the barrier of entry.
There are minimal tournaments for it compared to the other tiers - as BIG WILL said, the tour scene is dead at the moment, the most recent notable tour ending six months ago.
As Colteor said, it's uncertain if there will be a competitive pool given it was sketch last year and enthusiasm seems low.
The explosion ban has radically shifted how the tier plays/functions - notably meaning that with a relatively dead recent tour scene, its an untested tier going into this tournament!
You're essentially gambling on your doubles player that they're gonna figure it out (as a teammate or as a manager) and there's not a lot you can do to help them. The issues with isolation that come with doubles being in genPLs is exacerbated by the esoteric nature of ADV DOU and the factors cited above.
If it's featured in this tournament, at least make it Bo3. The players were clamoring for it due to the volatility of the format and liking the consistency that comes with it, last year featured a fantastical amount of gentlemen's bo3s.

For these reasons, I would support primarily the format Shitrock enjoyer mentioned of:
1x Ubers
5x OU
1x Bo3 OU
1x UU
1x RU
1x NU
1x PU
1x LC

TL;DR
LC and PU were great last year and should be competitive this year, keep them in.
Doubles had its issues and is looking like it will have them this year - please axe it or at least do bo3.
Expand to 12 slots - we have an enormous amount of competent players, especially in OU.
RU will not pull overly from the other pools, and features its own strong playerbase and is generally liked + has had a lot of tournaments, please add it.
Run a 12 slot format with at least 5OU (with one Bo3, that was great and well liked), featuring RU. In the last slot, there's argument for a sixth OU (fantastic but I understand there will be initial hesitance what with people suggesting that OU is stretched thin already, even if I disagree heavily), for ZU (there was a recent big money tournament, but the winners and top placers were predominantly tournament players and NOT ADV ZU players who signed for the money. Also, the recent drops featuring Mightyena have shifted the tier in a way that many are unhappy with.) and for DOU (if there does somehow look to be a very competitive pool, at least make it Bo3. Please don't keep it in for the sake of maintaining status quo in the face of fantastically better options, especially don't keep it in the format if we do not expand to twelve slots.)
Thank you for your time, let's have a great ADVPL this year. Super hype!
 
BP said:
OKAY

For the record, banning Glalie from ADV NU for this tournament is 100% incorrect and should not even be discussed. Glalie is not currently banned from ADV NU, and therefore, because this is THE de facto ADV team tour, it should be legal.



This is also a huge proponent and should not be ignored either. By removing Glalie, you are actively isolating and removing many veteran ADV NU players from the pool. Its frankly stupid to argue that ADV NU should be played without Glalie for ADVPL.
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What about the probably larger number of veteran ADV NU players who specifically want to play without Glalie and will only sign up for the tier in its absence?
Also this isn't the 'de facto' tour for ADV NU, that's NUPL. ADVPL is for the ADV community to decide how we want the tiers to be; if we want to, we don't even have to have ADV NU in the tour at all.
As for why the tour should be used to test Glalie, there's no real ADV NU ladder so you can't have a traditional suspect process. So this is a very good platform to see how the tier functions without it in competitive games with stakes.
Anyway, if you don't play this tour because there's no Glalie in NU, I doubt anyone will miss your signup particularly.
 
Who are the ADV NU veterans who will only signup with Glalie gone? ALTPL is currently running Glalieless and I certainly don't see any veterans there, especially compared to NUCL which is running with Glalie (since, you know, Glalie is part of the tier).

Feedback (that I've seen) from both of these tours has been pretty consistent that a) Glalie is fine and b) the tier without Glalie sucks

Randomly running a suspect slot instead of actual ADV NU because of "competitiveness" is bizarre when the actual playerbase of the tier doesn't want tiering action to happen
 
Triangles said:
Also this isn't the 'de facto' tour for ADV NU, that's NUPL. ADVPL is for the ADV community to decide how we want the tiers to be; if we want to, we don't even have to have ADV NU in the tour at all.
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I didn't say it was the de facto tour for ADV NU; I said it was the de facto team tour for ADV as a whole. While I'm sure it wouldn't actually happen, cutting ADV NU from the tournament would be a poor decision regardless of the outcome of this Glalie conversation.

Triangles said:
As for why the tour should be used to test Glalie, there's no real ADV NU ladder so you can't have a traditional suspect process. So this is a very good platform to see how the tier functions without it in competitive games with stakes.
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I think this is a fine take. However, there have already been two previous ADV NU suspect tours, the Glalieless tour and ALTPL. If a vote is going to happen, you should be able to use this tournament to qualify for said vote regardless of Glalie's inclusion. Moreover, ADVPL has never had a suspect slot, from my understanding, to begin with. If I'm wrong on this front, please correct me. I understand that "well, it's never been done" is not a particularly strong argument, but I think we remain consistent. ADV UU left its suspects to ALTPL and maybe one other tournament, I can't remember. It never encroached upon making ADVPL another testing opportunity. I don't see why we'd change this now and make ADV NU a suspect slot.
Triangles said:
Anyway, if you don't play this tour because there's no Glalie in NU, I doubt anyone will miss your signup particularly.
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I plan on playing OU, UU, or Ubers since I doubt ZU or RU is making the cut without an 8x12 change. However, I am flattered you think I belong in the same breath as some of the better ADV NU players lol.
 
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I think any arguments about a Glalie-less ADV NU being silly because ALTPL's ADV NU is Glalieless and doesn't have many signups is very silly, because none of the ALTPL tiers had a bevy of signups. It's a very low profile tournament, and its playerbase is eaten into by NUCL and all that.
There's good arguments as to why we shouldn't test Glalie, but "we've had Glalieless tours and they suck" is silly because the tours suck for other reasons.
 
Hey !
I think ZU deserves it's spot.
It is a rly good & well balanced tier in my opinion.
It has gained a lot in relevance & players recently, mostly through Gold Rush & the ROA Spotlights.

Anyway I think that having the most amount of different ADV communities is the best for everyone, though it becomes harder to run.

And yeah, as BP said, cutting OU spots isn't a good idea. It's the more popular tier and deserves 3-4 spots (depending if we go for 8x10 or 8x12) as the storefront of ADV and first step into the ADV Rabbithole.
 
Stories said:
please do not entertain a glalie ban, you dont get to complain with 0 data to back it up and expect to get ur way. go ahead and get ur jerk to boost my reaction score but until u guys provide something more substantial than "i dont like current adv nu" ur not getting anywhere
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People expressing their dislike for a mon is literally the exact way that every suspect in Pokemon history has been initiated.
 
Django said:
Who are the ADV NU veterans who will only signup with Glalie gone? ALTPL is currently running Glalieless and I certainly don't see any veterans there, especially compared to NUCL which is running with Glalie (since, you know, Glalie is part of the tier).

Feedback (that I've seen) from both of these tours has been pretty consistent that a) Glalie is fine and b) the tier without Glalie sucks

Randomly running a suspect slot instead of actual ADV NU because of "competitiveness" is bizarre when the actual playerbase of the tier doesn't want tiering action to happen
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heyy
do what you want, but I think that giving a more reasonable testing window is fair. basically what triangles said
 
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