Tournaments ADVPL V Format Discussion

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Since you apparently play the tier, I'll explain why its unhealthy and ADV NU would benefit from removing it. I will do so in the most obnoxious way possible as well, crediting myself for the very pokemon that is Glalie. In doing this I will give a history of its sets and explain what it does which will later help me explain why it is so good. I explain the glalie sets through myself because I invented them all (unironically). So time to be a narcissist!! It all started one ADV NU cup in which I played NU. I wasn't great at the tier yet, but I was able to notice that the standard glalie set (taunt ice beam explosion spikes) was complete dogshit) and was appalled. I made it to the finals in which I played Heysup who is a wonderful player (and if I remember correctly I lucked him in my first ADV NU Cup victory). This is when I first started diversifying with Soft Sand and Nevermeltice Glalie. Soft Sand is particularly bad for the metagame because it ohkos uninvested flareon, really restricting ways of playing both within and outside of the team builder. The next two sets I came up with were LightScreen, SPD and Choice Band. Choice band is primarily to fuck over flareon who thought oh I can EV for soft sand, but also combo'd well with Roselia with the idea being spikes are so broken and only removable by hitmonchan meaning if your glalie boomed the opposing glalie and u had answers to their threats you more or less just won the game. Light screen does an amazing job setting up as quickly as possible, and SPD is a real winner because it lets glalie run things like spikes protect shadow ball explosion or ice beam spikes rest sleep talk which beat haunter, combo well with toxic etc, and if you play the tier you should understand just how amazing that is. It should be noted that there is so much u can do should u choose to drop explosion, and physdef is also a fine set. Torment is cool, but I never used it, Icy Wind can find fantastic use, etc

Now that I have explained what sets Glalie can run, you should notice a two things, 1. im a piece of shit, 2. glalie can run 10000 different sets. Now combine this with the fact that it is by far the best spikes setter, and notice how absolutely broken spikes are in ADV NU, its hard to make a good team without them because they touch everything, are hard to remove, and come on a pretty damn good pokemon. There is no diversity to the spikes metagame like in ADV OU. So with all that done I've established that its centralizing. With its centralizing nature out of the way we can now make the assumption that it is more or less on every team. What does a metagame with glalie on every team (i.e more or less the metagame that is played by those who do the best) look like?

Okay this is where the argument for its ban starts. Again to be clear we are assuming every team has glalie because its more or less true if you are going to play at "highest" level and doing so simplifies the argument with no malice. I don't care to articulate every single nuance.

Let's say the opponent has
Glalie, Hitmonchan, Sableye, X, Y, Z
while you have
Glalie, Hitmonchan, Haunter, X, Y, Z

OR

Let's say the opponent has
Glalie, Hitmonchan, A, B, C, D
while you have
Glalie, Haunter, No Hitmonchan, X, Y, Z

The opponent has Rapid Spin while your rapid spin is blocked so now the game requires you to get every turn regarding spin right to win the game, or to have an incredible matchup otherwise.

In a Glalie, Haunter, Hitmonchan, X, Y, Z mirror it remains some dogshit guessing contest.

I hope I have established that hitmonchan games end up being complete dogshit here because everything is so prediction reliant and such turns of this nature are inherently uncompetitive and their frequency should be avoided because it brings the lesser player closer to the better player because both players will have equal awareness of this one concept. The only solution to the opponent bringing hitmonchan is to 1. bring an overall worse roselia team, 2. bring sableye every game, 3. Boom their Glalie with yours and use a Roselia team. None of these are preferable and if you use these strategies every game you will get counterteamed. This is the number one factor here. Skill expression and building expression which is apart of it get ruined which brings worse players closer to the better players. Furthermore, there is increased room for bad matchups when your team relies on a pokemon that isn't a hard counter to anything in a metagame where no game truly ends up fitting the tempo associated with hyper offense. SPD Glalie somewhat helps with this making it an answer to something like Haunter, but even then it only goes so far. There is more I can say, but this should be more than enough to convince you that the tier is both less competitive and less fun explain why great players like Heysup said ADV NU is dogshit (or whatever he said idr). I am tired of writing and will stop after the first argument that came to mind.

Edit: I do want to add god forbid you have no spinblocker, then hitmonchan teams should just dismantle you, and having to use a ghost and glalie on every team and then do this and that oh em ge,...
 
Since you apparently play the tier, I'll explain why its healthy and ADV NU would benefit from removing it. I will do so in the most obnoxious way possible as well, crediting myself for the very pokemon that is Glalie. In doing this I will give a history of its sets and explain what it does which will later help me explain why it is so good. I explain the glalie sets through myself because I invented them all (unironically). So time to be a narcissist!! It all started one ADV NU cup in which I played NU. I wasn't great at the tier yet, but I was able to notice that the standard glalie set (taunt ice beam explosion spikes) was complete dogshit) and was appalled. I made it to the finals in which I played Heysup who is a wonderful player (and if I remember correctly I lucked him in my first ADV NU Cup victory). This is when I first started diversifying with Soft Sand and Nevermeltice Glalie. Soft Sand is particularly bad for the metagame because it ohkos uninvested flareon, really restricting ways of playing both within and outside of the team builder. The next two sets I came up with were LightScreen, SPD and Choice Band. Choice band is primarily to fuck over flareon who thought oh I can EV for soft sand, but also combo'd well with Roselia with the idea being spikes are so broken and only removable by hitmonchan meaning if your glalie boomed the opposing glalie and u had answers to their threats you more or less just won the game. Light screen does an amazing job setting up as quickly as possible, and SPD is a real winner because it lets glalie run things like spikes protect shadow ball explosion or ice beam spikes rest sleep talk which beat haunter, combo well with toxic etc, and if you play the tier you should understand just how amazing that is. It should be noted that there is so much u can do should u choose to drop explosion, and physdef is also a fine set. Torment is cool, but I never used it, Icy Wind can find fantastic use, etc

Now that I have explained what sets Glalie can run, you should notice a two things, 1. im a piece of shit, 2. glalie can run 10000 different sets. Now combine this with the fact that it is by far the best spikes setter, and notice how absolutely broken spikes are in ADV NU, its hard to make a good team without them because they touch everything, are hard to remove, and come on a pretty damn good pokemon. There is no diversity to the spikes metagame like in ADV OU. So with all that done I've established that its centralizing. With its centralizing nature out of the way we can now make the assumption that it is more or less on every team. What does a metagame with glalie on every team (i.e more or less the metagame that is played by those who do the best) look like?

Okay this is where the argument for its ban starts. Again to be clear we are assuming every team has glalie because its more or less true if you are going to play at "highest" level and doing so simplifies the argument with no malice. I don't care to articulate every single nuance.

Let's say the opponent has
Glalie, Hitmonchan, Sableye, X, Y, Z
while you have
Glalie, Hitmonchan, Haunter, X, Y, Z

OR

Let's say the opponent has
Glalie, Hitmonchan, A, B, C, D
while you have
Glalie, Haunter, No Hitmonchan, X, Y, Z

The opponent has Rapid Spin while your rapid spin is blocked so now the game requires you to get every turn regarding spin right to win the game, or to have an incredible matchup otherwise.

In a Glalie, Haunter, Hitmonchan, X, Y, Z mirror it remains some dogshit guessing contest.

I hope I have established that hitmonchan games end up being complete dogshit here because everything is so prediction reliant and such turns of this nature are inherently uncompetitive and their frequency should be avoided because it brings the lesser player closer to the better player because both players will have equal awareness of this one concept. The only solution to the opponent bringing hitmonchan is to 1. bring an overall worse roselia team, 2. bring sableye every game, 3. Boom their Glalie with yours and use a Roselia team. None of these are preferable and if you use these strategies every game you will get counterteamed. This is the number one factor here. Skill expression and building expression which is apart of it get ruined which brings worse players closer to the better players. Furthermore, there is increased room for bad matchups when your team relies on a pokemon that isn't a hard counter to anything in a metagame where no game truly ends up fitting the tempo associated with hyper offense. SPD Glalie somewhat helps with this making it an answer to something like Haunter, but even then it only goes so far. There is more I can say, but this should be more than enough to convince you that the tier is both less competitive and less fun explain why great players like Heysup said ADV NU is dogshit (or whatever he said idr). I am tired of writing and will stop after the first argument that came to mind.

Edit: I do want to add god forbid you have no spinblocker, then hitmonchan teams should just dismantle you, and having to use a ghost and glalie on every team and then do this and that oh em ge,...
I appreciate this breakdown and I also do recognize you as the inventor of Glalie, you were calling it the best mon in the tier long before anyone else was. I think we should probably take this to another discussion location but your whole breakdown here seems to be heavily founded on the idea that even a single Spike is game-ending or that Glalie can get 3 layers up for free. Hitmonchan is also pretty controversial in current NU and I can agree its dynamic with Glalie + Ghost creates a pretty weird triangle but Hitmonchan has ways of breaking past Ghosts and again, a Spike isn't the end of the world. I know you provided only a single example but people are ever-adapting to lead Glalie as you can see from NUCL lead usage stats, with stuff like Hitmonchan and Oct sitting at top 5 in usage.
 
I appreciate this breakdown and I also do recognize you as the inventor of Glalie, you were calling it the best mon in the tier long before anyone else was. I think we should probably take this to another discussion location but your whole breakdown here seems to be heavily founded on the idea that even a single Spike is game-ending or that Glalie can get 3 layers up for free. Hitmonchan is also pretty controversial in current NU and I can agree its dynamic with Glalie + Ghost creates a pretty weird triangle but Hitmonchan has ways of breaking past Ghosts and again, a Spike isn't the end of the world. I know you provided only a single example but people are ever-adapting to lead Glalie as you can see from NUCL lead usage stats, with stuff like Hitmonchan and Oct sitting at top 5 in usage.
People have been "adapting" to glalie for like a decade now and it's still meta warping in an unhealthy way. Octillery and Hitmonchan are hardly good checks to Glalie as is, who will always threaten to go positive in nearly any interaction and matchup. There is no feasible downside to Glalie, and while 100% usage mons can be fine, it certainly isn't here.
 
I appreciate this breakdown and I also do recognize you as the inventor of Glalie, you were calling it the best mon in the tier long before anyone else was. I think we should probably take this to another discussion location but your whole breakdown here seems to be heavily founded on the idea that even a single Spike is game-ending or that Glalie can get 3 layers up for free. Hitmonchan is also pretty controversial in current NU and I can agree its dynamic with Glalie + Ghost creates a pretty weird triangle but Hitmonchan has ways of breaking past Ghosts and again, a Spike isn't the end of the world
It usually does get 3 at the sacrifice of its HP, and with explosion and SBall its a nightmare. The only other exchange Glalie frequently makes is with other glalie and that sucks because now both have 3 spikesand rapid spin is an immediate predictionfest. Also the fact that hitmonchan can break ghosts (mainly haunter) makes it worse, not better. Hitmonchan being able to break haunter is bad for the game because it means when my opponent sends out hitmonchan I have to say "will they spin or will they hp ghost" and the reality is nobody can tell you but your opponent and to add salt to the wound when you have haunter in vs hitmonchan u arent even out of the woods yet. It's a disgustingly uncompetitive paradigm. Moreover, I personally didn't use Rapid Spin hitmonchan much because I wanted the upmost consistency i.e I wanted to avoid playing spin 5050s, but I would never tell you its not an incredibly forcing pokemon that is very good. In a sense my opponent gets to use some tool based on 5050s to their benefit whereas if I used it it is to their benefit (this isn't exactly true, it would still be worth using, but in a spin vs ghost matchup its increasing variance.) This whole situation betters the worse player which makes it less fun (and competitive).
 
please keep adv pu in the tournament Thumbs Up Emoji [Free Download IOS Emojis].png and as much as i fw yalls passion u should probably talk about adv nu glalie in the nu glalie thread instead
 
It usually does get 3 at the sacrifice of its HP
Agree lets discuss elsewhere (ADV NU channel in NUCord is very active atm!)

To close it off and add some reference data on this, in the currently running NUCL, the average number of Spikes left at the end of the game (counting both sides) is 2.11. So around 1 spike on each side.

0-0 happened 4 times, 3-3 happened once. Draw your own conclusions but I don't think the impact on the tier is as drastic as being described and the meta has evolved in the 12 months since last ADVPL.

Here's the data if anyone wants:


Code:
Team 1    Team 2
1    1
2    1
1    1
0    3
3    0
1    0
3    1
0    0
1    1
3    3
1    1
0    0
1    0
1    3
1    1
1    2
0    0
0    0
2    1
0    2
1    1
2    2
1    2
1    1
0    1
0    0
 
I would support adv ru’s inclusion in advpl. This tier was recently included in recent RU team tours RUGL (ru farm league), RUWC, and will almost certainly be included in this years’s RUPL.

The tier was created in part to give the 25 or so UU mons that are c+ or below on UU’s current VR a tier where they will see more usage, as well as all NU Pokemon. This provides some unique advantages compared to NU. For example, top tier water types poliwrath and politoed provide easy access to the Damp ability, which mitigates the ability for pokemon like glalie to explode and easily generate progress and momentum. These frogs are very sturdy and really only fear toxic or more spikes from glalie, unlike haunter who is very risky to switch in on almost all opposing booms. Top tier speed control Rapidash is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier due to its speed, while also having a variety of sets it uses to break teams like Sunnybeam and choice band. While strong, it needs to sacrifice its item slot for status protection with lum or more power with band, so it’s not able to stick around the entire game. Stantler is a top tier lead and breaker that has perfect coverage and no great switch-ins, but is hard to get on the field due to its middling bulk, typing, and speed tier. Xatu provides a useful defensive typing, speed, and status counterplay with early bird rest. Raichu is a top-tier fast electric that can easily fit encore to disrupt passive pokemon. All of these tier staples help establish adv ru’s identity that’s different from the tiers above and below it.

I think it’s worth giving RU a shot to see how advpl will develop the meta and to give it a chance to be an advpl staple if the community enjoys it.

I would also support ZU’s inclusion for the same reason, the tier has been played at a high level due to the money tour that happened recently, and is unique among singles metas, as spikes is very rare aside from some real shitters (snorunt and cacnea). Mighteyena is a top tier defensive mon that provides heal bell support to the entire tier, limiting the impact of status on games.

In terms of tiers that should be cut for these 2, if doubles was disliked by the player base last time, I think it’s reasonable to give one of these new tiers a shot at least for this year. We can always reevaluate after the new tiers see a tour of play.
 
I have 0 stakes but any further adv nu glalie discussions will be deleted from this thread. Take it elsewhere.
I have no opinion or stake on this either but the inclusion or exclusion of glalie from the metagame clearly makes an impact on whether certain people will support the inclusion or exclusion of nu as a tier in this tournament. If we're in limbo on this we can't really land on a format - it has to be decided before we commit to nu being a part of the tour. I agree it's been litigated enough in here and I believe hosts should make a decision on whether the potential nu slot will or will not have glalie legal sooner than later.
 
Hello, it's me again lol
Just wanted to add on what I said about ZU deserving it's spot.
I feel like the tier is having some really close competition recently. The ongoing ZU Olympiad is a good proof of it (and what makes me right this lol), with incredible sets between a ton of great players who are cooking new stuff each week. Most sets are ending on one mon & big upsets are being made.
I'm sure players that didn't had the chance to play much or at all during Olympiad are hungry for more & will be very interested in the tour if there is ZU on the Menu.
I feel like the competition is close between the players, which always feel great during team tours. Also everyone has kinda a different playstyle, it's great to watch.
And there has been new blood (such as myself lol) entering since recently, thx to the money tour. It brings some new vision on the meta which always feel great.

I think it would be kind of a shame to pass on a cool tier like ZU where there is such stiff competition !
 
re: Glalie in NU. There is a thread about this in PR and I don't see that anyone has mentioned that yet but I also didn't read a lot of the posts because they were either trolling or redundant. As far as we could tell, most people wanted it tested (per rabia, this is happening soon), a few people wanted it banned outright (this is me), and a few people wanted in. I'm not going to go into the details here because other people have and it's not the place for it (please don't delete me goldmason).

Notwithstanding my opinion on Glalie, I 100% agree with rabia that we should not be banning Glalie in this tour because it is not actually banned yet and they are actually looking at it. That being said, if I had a vote, I would delete NU from this tour because of the current limbo stage (and I like many find the tier to be gross).

Adv RU is a better tier with better game quality and it's been around for 5 minutes (I still think Glalie should be banned from this but you have fast fire-types everywhere so I don't really care as much).

My ideal tiers would be something like this but I'm probably the only one who thinks this.

ADV Ubers
ADV OU
ADV OU
ADV OU BO3
ADV UU
ADV UU
ADV RU
ADV DOU BO3
 
re: Glalie in NU. There is a thread about this in PR and I don't see that anyone has mentioned that yet but I also didn't read a lot of the posts because they were either trolling or redundant. As far as we could tell, most people wanted it tested (per rabia, this is happening soon), a few people wanted it banned outright (this is me), and a few people wanted in. I'm not going to go into the details here because other people have and it's not the place for it (please don't delete me goldmason).

Notwithstanding my opinion on Glalie, I 100% agree with rabia that we should not be banning Glalie in this tour because it is not actually banned yet and they are actually looking at it. That being said, if I had a vote, I would delete NU from this tour because of the current limbo stage (and I like many find the tier to be gross).

Adv RU is a better tier with better game quality and it's been around for 5 minutes (I still think Glalie should be banned from this but you have fast fire-types everywhere so I don't really care as much).

My ideal tiers would be something like this but I'm probably the only one who thinks this.

ADV Ubers
ADV OU
ADV OU
ADV OU BO3
ADV UU
ADV UU
ADV RU
ADV DOU BO3

I think that this is close to ideal for me too, but I'm not sure about dropping NU as there's a clearly invested player base. I also feel the player pool for OU is easily large enough to have a quality 4th slot

I think I would want to see this personally as im not as keen on having DOU and LC players are very invested in this tour as their big time to shine.

Ubers
OU
OU
OU BO3
UU
NU
RU/ZU/PU
LC
Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU BO3
UU
RU
NU
ZU
LC

Edit: It would appear I missed PU. I am happy with the idea of 2 of RU/PU/ZU
 
Last edited:
I think that this is close to ideal for me too, but I'm not sure about dropping NU as there's a clearly invested player base. I also feel the player pool for OU is easily large enough to have a quality 4th slot

I think I would want to see this personally as im not as keen on having DOU and LC players are very invested in this tour as their big time to shine.

Ubers
OU
OU
OU BO3
UU
NU
RU/ZU
LC
Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU BO3
UU
RU
NU
ZU
LC

Just gonna post to say I really support this. Definitely personally prefer the 8 tier option, but 10 is fine. Just please not 12, sorry...
 
There is no real reason to cut PU that I’ve seen. It has about the same presence and stability as it did last year. I’m all for adding RU this year, but PU shouldn’t be a casualty to that.
ngl i feel the exact way about PU with minun as some ppl feel with NU and glalie so i wouldnt personally mind seeing it gone but it has a very active playerbase and lots of development so it doesnt deserve to be cut
 
re: Glalie in NU. There is a thread about this in PR and I don't see that anyone has mentioned that yet but I also didn't read a lot of the posts because they were either trolling or redundant. As far as we could tell, most people wanted it tested (per rabia, this is happening soon), a few people wanted it banned outright (this is me), and a few people wanted in. I'm not going to go into the details here because other people have and it's not the place for it (please don't delete me goldmason).

Notwithstanding my opinion on Glalie, I 100% agree with rabia that we should not be banning Glalie in this tour because it is not actually banned yet and they are actually looking at it. That being said, if I had a vote, I would delete NU from this tour because of the current limbo stage (and I like many find the tier to be gross).

Adv RU is a better tier with better game quality and it's been around for 5 minutes (I still think Glalie should be banned from this but you have fast fire-types everywhere so I don't really care as much).

My ideal tiers would be something like this but I'm probably the only one who thinks this.

ADV Ubers
ADV OU
ADV OU
ADV OU BO3
ADV UU
ADV UU
ADV RU
ADV DOU BO3
Idk why UU is getting a double slot, but it also has Doubles so it's certified peak format
 
the thread consensus so far seems to be that (and please do respond to this if you don't believe it to be the case)
NU should NOT be testing Glalieless this ADVPL, as Glalie is seeing serious tiering discussion over the coming weeks after the conclusion of NUCL. ADV NU in ADVPL should still be useful providing evidence to pro and anti ban claims.
We shouldn't cut PU or LC, as they were competitive, held strong playerbases and look to do the same this year.
ADV DOU would be an active detriment to this edition of the tournament.
ADV OU Bo3 was an excellent addition and should be kept.
ADV Draft, while an exciting proposition, seems undercooked given dissonance in the thread as to which board should be used etc etc -> the Draft Circuit for the year should consolidate this for potential inclusion next year.
The items up for discussion seem to be:
Inclusion of RU
Inclusion of ZU
10 slots vs 12 slots (the support for 8 slots seems extremely minimal)

The phantom format looks like:
Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU Bo3
UU
NU
PU
LC
RU/ZU

or, in an expansion to 12 slots, either both RU and ZU and one more OU, or addition of one and two more OU.
personal thoughts -> in a 6OU ADVPL, we field 48 starters. I think the number of competent players with the enthusiasm to pick up the tier, and competent mainers of the tier, far and away exceeds 48, and we should at LEAST be expanding to 5OU. ofc up for discussion. leaning heavily RU > ZU if they have to compete for the same slot.
 
the thread consensus so far seems to be that (and please do respond to this if you don't believe it to be the case)
NU should NOT be testing Glalieless this ADVPL, as Glalie is seeing serious tiering discussion over the coming weeks after the conclusion of NUCL. ADV NU in ADVPL should still be useful providing evidence to pro and anti ban claims.
We shouldn't cut PU or LC, as they were competitive, held strong playerbases and look to do the same this year.
ADV DOU would be an active detriment to this edition of the tournament.
ADV OU Bo3 was an excellent addition and should be kept.
ADV Draft, while an exciting proposition, seems undercooked given dissonance in the thread as to which board should be used etc etc -> the Draft Circuit for the year should consolidate this for potential inclusion next year.
The items up for discussion seem to be:
Inclusion of RU
Inclusion of ZU
10 slots vs 12 slots (the support for 8 slots seems extremely minimal)

The phantom format looks like:
Ubers
OU
OU
OU
OU Bo3
UU
NU
PU
LC
RU/ZU

or, in an expansion to 12 slots, either both RU and ZU and one more OU, or addition of one and two more OU.
personal thoughts -> in a 6OU ADVPL, we field 48 starters. I think the number of competent players with the enthusiasm to pick up the tier, and competent mainers of the tier, far and away exceeds 48, and we should at LEAST be expanding to 5OU. ofc up for discussion. leaning heavily RU > ZU if they have to compete for the same slot.
First off, thank you for agreeing that we shouldn't be running a suspect slot for NU regarding Glalie as I mentioned in my most recent post. Keep Glalie, it's in the meta right now and it's fate will be decided soon I'm sure. Next, I like that phantom format and I have 0 issue with 12 slots.

This would mean 8 teams at 5 OU slots each for a total of 40 OU slots which is plenty and that's not including the Bo3 slot which makes it 46 altogether. RU has done more than enough to earn a spot given the support as well as ZU. I'm more biased for RU over ZU for the 12th slot and that's understandable, but I wouldn't be opposed to either one. In the end, 8 teams and 12 slots is what I'd vote for and makes this fun tour even more competitive, which is what we'd want if we're all being honest.
 
--last year we had enought people for 10 slots, so dunno why we should have less this year, more is debatable, but less?
--DOU is a shadow of itself and should be changed for zu/ru/ bo3 of something
-- Suspect slots shoulda be something special and rare, and glalie has already have one so we should have the tier as it is (maybe without glalie if the council ban it before this start)
 
I wanted to suggest considering three-manager teams, similar to how SPL currently is, if the tournament expands to 12 slots. I am currently managing a 12-slot tournament, and it’s been pretty rough handling it for multiple weeks. I’ve also heard from other managers in the tournament who are experiencing the same struggle with it consuming a lot of time.
 
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