Arceus?

[gengod]

I've been wondering recently why we actually placed this sort of psuedo-ban on Arceus. The argument for Arceus was that it hasn't yet been released yet by Nintendo, by why should this affect us? We already have all the information on Arceus, what moves it learns, it's typing with the plates, it's stats...etc.

The more I look at it the argument pertaining to it's banning I find that it is rather silly and I think it would be fine if we just release it. Its not like it is going to change into something completely different when Nintendo releases it.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Yeah, the whole "Arceus hasn't been released yet!" argument can be responded to very easily by this:

"Who cares?"

We've already taken the stance that we don't care about what Nintendo thinks...so why would we let a perfectly manageable-in-ubers pokemon like Arceus be wasted?

We should just take it off of the OoO list and add it into Ubers, there really isn't any discussion required.

 

[Mekkah]

The main argument is that you cannot get the damn thing. Coming to that standard, it's as legal as Aeroblast on Shaymin-S. It has pretty much the status of unused data now.

 

[Great Sage]

I've never agreed with the Arceus pseudo-ban, though I certainly recognize the reasons behind it. We do have all the data about it, and it is not a glitch Pokemon like Missingno; besides, if the fact that Game Freak created an entire set of items for Arceus and reference it throughout the game doesn't indicate that they intend it to be released at some point, then I don't know what does.

EDIT: Mekkah, the difference between Arceus and Aeroblast Shaymin-S is that Shaymin-S simply isn't programmed to learn Aeroblast, whereas Arceus does exist in the programming (and is not a glitch).

 

[TAY]

Yeah I'm with Maniac on this...we know everything about it, so the fact that it isn't usable in battle (though it is actually obtainable through the same glitch as Shaymin and Darkrai) is pretty much irrelevant.

EDIT: IT's probably important to consider that you can get Arceus in-game; however you are trapped in Sky Pillar forever after you do so.

 

[Venom]

Great Sage and Maniac pretty much summed up my feelings in the first paragraph.

 

[RBG]

Totally agreeing with everything said here.

 

[Mekkah]

EDIT: Mekkah, the difference between Arceus and Aeroblast Shaymin-S is that Shaymin-S simply isn't programmed to learn Aeroblast, whereas Arceus does exist in the programming (and is not a glitch).

No need to convince me, convince Obi. I personally don't really care about the rule.

 

[kd24]

I dont see why we cant test / place arceus in ubers while we test other stuff in OoO. I would like to see it in ladder play.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

The only reason why I would disagree with a test on Arceus is that the Ubers ladder is pretty much dead 24/7 anyways, adding a SECOND ubers ladder would only detract from that. If we tested Arceus on an Ubers Suspect ladder as we have done Garchomp, Deoxys and co. in OU, I would be stunned if there were more than 5 eligible voters.

And Mekkah, I understand what you said but if "Arceus is like Skymin with Aeroblast" is really Obi's reasoning then I don't think there is much convincing that needs to be done. I'll wait for him to represent his own opinion though, since even though he presented a fairly legitimate argument, I don't really think its relevant to Smogon's precedent of not dealing with in-game status.

I think this is one of those things where we can bang it through and nobody would care. Arceus' placement in Ubers wont make anything in OU less broken in its tier.

 

[kd24]

i wouldnt even bother putting up a new uber ladder. Just put him in the original imo

 

[Aeolus]

I'm indifferent to this... but a decision needs to be made before I start the next tour.

 

[Mekkah]

I say put him back to ubers then unless someone is strongly opposed to this.

 

[Stellar]

Agreeing with the whole 'allow into Ubers' sentiment.

 

[gorm]

actually jrrrrrrr arceus in ubers might give it the "kick" it needs!

would it be worth adding it into a seperate metagame?

also arceus changes colour depending on his plate type right?

 

[Stellar]

also arceus changes colour depending on his plate type right?

Yes, but not on Shoddy. You still get the "Arceus transformed into the ____ type!" message.

 

[Lee]

Proposing that this thread be moved to Policy Review to get a few more opinions?

 

[gengod]

would it be worth adding it into a seperate metagame?

Well it's kinda in a seperate metagame already with extended clause but noone plays that anyway.

EDIT: Moving this to PR.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The only reason why I would disagree with a test on Arceus is that the Ubers ladder is pretty much dead 24/7 anyways, adding a SECOND ubers ladder would only detract from that. If we tested Arceus on an Ubers Suspect ladder as we have done Garchomp, Deoxys and co. in OU, I would be stunned if there were more than 5 eligible voters.

Test? What test? As far as I'm aware there are only two possible outcomes to this issue. Either allow Arceus into Ubers or keep things the way they are. To propose a 'test' is to suggest that Arceus may or may not be allowed in Ubers depending on whether it is unbalancing or centralizing in Ubers. But of course Ubers is supposed to be heavily unbalanced and centralized, as it already is, so a Pokemon's performance in Ubers has no bearing on its tier placement whatsoever. Nothing can possibly be banned from Ubers unless it is an issue of legitimacy. I shouldn't really need to mention this in Policy Review of all places, but your post seemed to convey a flawed interpretation of the tier system.

As for the issue at hand, I am completely in favor of allowing Arceus. I always have to be honest.

 

[Syberia]

Shaymin was allowed on the OU ladder long before Nintendo ever released its event. If that's not grounds to allow Arceus, I don't know what is.

 

[darkie]

Shaymin was a different story, however, as you could theoretically use the glitch to get Shaymin, and conduct a battle over Wi-Fi or with another DS. If you use the glitch to get Arceus, on the other hand, you're trapped in Spear Pillar. Technically, you would be then unable to do a battle like you would be able to do with Shaymin.

Regardless, I wouldn't mind Arceus allowed in the game at all.

 

[Syberia]

You can also theoretically use a glitch to put Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Volt Tackle, and Brave Bird on an Aerodactyl and use it on Wi-Fi as well. Yet that is not allowed.

 

[Jibaku]

Well after Arceus is allowed I guess I can say bye to to balance (there is a degree of balance in ubers), but I won't mind him being allowed on ladder, because it exists as a real yet unobtainable as of now Pokemon in game. It should not be wasted just because it is unreleased yet.

Hmm I never knew there was a glitch to get Arceus in game considering it's on a very high plane, unlike Shaymin and Darkrai which is easily accessible because of the lands' positioning.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I think it should remain banned. The point of shoddy is to simulate the games. Battling with Arceus is impossible.

As for the illegal Aerodactyl sets, well that would be broken. It's banned for entirely different reasons.

As for balance it's an uber tier, if it was supposed to be balanced it would be OU.

Have a nice day.

 

[obi]

You are allowed to ban whatever glitches you want. This does not mean that all glitches must be banned. You cannot, however, allow illegal things or else you're no longer playing Pokemon.

It's possible that Nintendo will never release Arceus as we know it. That doesn't mean they won't release Arceus. For all we know, they will release a level 100 Arceus that knows Explosion, Memento, Destiny Bond, Selfdestruct as the sole event.

If the argument is "Who cares, it's just ubers?" then you must also allow Sheer Cold, No Guard Deoxys-S and Wonder Guard Spiritomb. I mean, it's just ubers. The only way to get those Pokemon is the same as the only way to get Arceus: via an Action Replay.

There is no "testing" here. Using an argument of power to truly ban Arceus shows a deep misunderstanding for just what the uber tier means. No amount of testing on Shoddy will convince me to change my mind because my position is not based on anything testable by a simulator. If someone finds some way within the confines of the game to get an Arceus, then we can have this discussion. Unless and until that happens, I stand firmly on the side of keeping it banned.

The code is the final arbiter.