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Are bulky waters outdated?

Hrist[ALT]

Hrist[ALT]

I was building a team recently that will probably end up consisting of Skarmory, Magnezone, Gyarados, Duknoir, Tyranitar and Garchomp, and it struck me that I didn't have a bulky water in my lineup for the first time since playing 200 in the early days of RSE.

We all know that in standard FRLG play, a bulky water Pokemon is basically essential to success, but I'm not sure sure about D/P. Pokemon like Salamence, guys that bulky waters are meant to counter, have gotten some nasty upgrades like Draco Meteor and Dragon Claw, and a properly EV'd, Adamant Garchomp with swords dance can theoretically take an ice beam and OHKO Swampert or Milotic (I remember reading this in a complex series of calculations way before D/P hit the States). Even Infernape can possibly 2HKO a standard bulky water with a good close combat attack (though Suicune has one over on it I think, I'm not sure) or an energy ball attack.

So, taking that into consideration, it feels like our thinking concerning the traditional bulky water is a little outdated. Guys like Swampert can theoretically beat Rhyperior, Magnezone and Tyranitar, but is that it? Not only that, but more and more players seem to be using Pokemon with either choice glasses or nasty plot, something that bulky waters are simply not equipped to deal with.

Add in the fact that D/P didn't really seem to add any new bulky waters to the standard game mix (I'm guessing Manaphy and Empoleon don't count anyway), so where does that leave us?

So, in a very roundabout way, I'm asking if our traditional thinking about bulky waters is now wholly outdated, and if a well-designed team can get by without them now. What do you think?
 
Swampert is the only good one. Manaphy, Ludicolo, Infernape and Starmie take the cake as counters, carrying Grass Knot. So does Bronzong. So essentially, the bulky water is no longer useful
 
Yeah, theyre outdated. This gen, walling is more dependant on type advantages rather than just defense stats. Blissey is one of the only exceptions.

The main reason Swampert is still good is because of the resistances given by the Grond type, and the fact that it has some versatility. Not to say things like Milotic don't either, but the fact that you don't know which attacks it has or how to counter it until a turn or two after it comes out, much like some sweepers (Salamence, Infernape, etc.), make it good still. Physical Water STAB helps it too.

Long story short; bulky waters are outdated unless they have good offensive capabilities as well without having to set up... Gyarados and Manaphy have Dragon Dance and Tail Glow (respecitvely), but they don't have to use them to cause alot of trouble to teams. Suicune doesn't really do as much if it can't set up a Calm Mind, which it won't often be able to in a much faster metagame than we had in the 3rd gen
 
Manaphy has the stats but not the support movepool of celebi or jirachi to be considered defensive imo.

Empoleon is nice for specsmence. Swampert has a nice rock resist and is a great SR set up. The problem is that milotic and suicune dont resist anything useful. Plus swampert has a STAB EQ off of base 110 attack which is still nice.
 
Bulky (cough Jumpman reference) Gyarados works nicely as a typical bulky water, acting as a good physicalMence/Garchomp counter.
 
You're correct in your assumption that bulky waters are outdated.

Things have changed. Everything hits so hard, there's not much in the way of general-purpose "walls" left outside of Blissey. To stop things from destroying you you need to rely on generic resistances, prediction, and planning. As others have mentioned, Swampert remains excellent thanks to its typing. Stuff like Slowbro remains usable, but it is no longer the all-in-one general answer to everything physical that pokemon like Milotic and Suicune used to be. You can point to Gyarados if you want, but that is really not the same thing; Gyarados is a primarily offensive pokemon. This sort of defensive playing is just not possible anymore; that's as much of a reason you aren't seeing the formerly ubiquitous "bulky water" as anything else.
 
The game was never really about bulky waters,Sure they help out a little more than they do now but suicune,milotic,vaperon, and swampert still do what they did last generation just they are slighty less effective(because offensive nature of the game) especially in the early stages of metagame where nothing is really set but until we figure just how much speed and defense is need for the big threats they will make a bigger come back.


The game defensively was all really about blissey and skarmory(not to together like they were in gsc) but you could find either one in every other team.Pretty much that has not change.What has change snorlax,suicune and milotic has been made weaker but we have tanglegrowth,bronzong, dusknoir, empoleon, mesprirt, cresselia (and if certain poke with similar stats to cresselia was allowed game would be alot more soild) to replace them.

Also the pace of the game has change in more from GSC(stalling)RSE(stall then sweep).To todays D/P basically trying to get the sweeping advantage.Pokes that don't hit hard or set up fast or bring some sort up of support move to table aren't an asset in this game.
 
first off, does the word bulky annoy anyone else? it just sounds so weird to me

higher damage possiblilites rain (lol) on their parade, so does the fact that many pokemon resist all their attacks and can just come in and set up on them
 
Actually, Surf will OHKO off the standard 266 Special Attack unless Rhyperior has huge Special Defense investment or Sandstorm.
 
People seem to overestimate Rhyperior's Hard Rock...its more of an asset to futhur help his physical defenses, his specail defense is still low enough for him to get one-hit ko'd by surf even with hard rock.
Magnezone's Flash Cannon is a surprise to anyone who thinks they sealed him by trying to get Rhyperior onto him. I've one-hit ko'd many ryhperiors with it.
 
Rhyperior's Hard Rock doesn't help all that much. Super-effective attacks will still consistently OHKO it. Surf actually is overkill. I'd like to see the calculations

Pokemon like Suicune and Milotic are not outdated. They just need to be played differently. Milo can still act as a good Sleeper and people underestimate its base 100 special attack. In this generation, the best defense is a speedy strong offense. Instead of playing Milo bulky to combat superior DDers, throw some EVs in special attack, make it Modest and pummel things with Surf and Ice Beam. Bulky waters still won't get OHKOed because water is a great defensive type. Anything you can't kill just put their ass to sleep. As for Suicune, Calm Cune will never be outdated.

As of now, bulky Gyarados is a good bulky water
 
CalmCune is still nice, only that this time I would put some EVs in SpA if I have to use it, the problem is that is kinda hard to setup a single Calm Mind because you can't switch into many things with poor resistances, but after a Calm Mind it becomes great.

Slowbro @ Lefties
- Surf
- HP Electric
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off

A personal favorite of mine, I guess it's a standard?

Slowbro would be doomed without Slack off, Water/Psychic gives it bad weaknesses but some cool resistances: Fire, Water, Ice, Psychic, Fighting and well Steel.

Milotic used to be great, but now it can't switch into a CBChomp Outrage :S or a Swords Danced EQ even when sleep and can't KO Chomp back with Ice Beam anyway.

May I talk about Starmie here? :P, Starmie isn't bulky but with max HP it can effectively survive to some key hits and KO back with its variety of moves, Gyarados is a great example for this, Starmie has chances of survivin' a double Dragon Danced EQ from Adamant Gyarados and takes less than 41% from a +2 Atk Waterfall as well.

Starmie also counters Infernape, sometimes counters Rhyperior, Skarmory, and some others that I can't think of right now...

Starmie @ Lefties
Timid Nature
EVs: 236 HP / 216 Spd / 58 SAtk
- Surf
- T.Bolt
- Rapid Spin/Psychic/Ice Beam
- Recover

This set is like the Slowbro's one only that this one relies more on speed than Defenses.

The third moveslot depends of your team needs, Rapid Spin if you want to take off those annoying Spikes or Stealth Rocks, Psychic KOs Gengar and prevents Heracross from switchin in safely.
 
Milotic used to be great, but now it can't switch into a CBChomp Outrage :S or a Swords Danced EQ even when sleep and can't KO Chomp back with Ice Beam anyway.
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I'd like to see the calculations on that. It is safe to say Milo is not anything close to a Garchomp counter, but 100 base SA with some EVs and modest can do it. Milo is not a wall, so Bold natured bulky water sets are useless now
 
While bulky waters aren't the end all counter to everything anymore, they are still great assets to one's team. They supplement a key resistance that only Grass types have otherwise, Water (Swampert doesn't, but it's Rock resistance is very good). Without it, bulky waters on opposing teams can set up and fast waters, as well as sweeping waters, can come in without having to deal with anything resisting it.
 
I suggest if you wish to use bulky waters such as Milotic make sure to have intimidated said opponent beforehand! Since it forces a switch or the oppenent will be stuck with the cut attack! Intimidate is a must IMO! This can be said about any type of pokemon besides bulky waters anyways.
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RaikouLover said:
I'd like to see the calculations on that. It is safe to say Milo is not anything close to a Garchomp counter, but 100 base SA with some EVs and modest can do it. Milo is not a wall, so Bold natured bulky water sets are useless now
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My calcs:

Jolly CBChomp's Outrage against Bold Milo (252 HP, 252 Def) -> 63-74% damage.

Jolly CBChomp's Outrage against Bold Milo (252 HP, 252 Def) with Marvel Scale activated-> 42-49% damage.

Adamant CBChomp's Outrage against the same Milo -> 69-81% damage.

Adamant CBChomp's Outrage against the same with Marvel Scale activated-> 46-54% damage.

Just think how bad it will do with a Modest Nature and less Defense EVs, lol

Milo is not a wall, so Bold natured bulky water sets are useless now
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WHAT??, look at its stats: 95HP, 79 Def (add Marvel Scale), 125 SpD, what it was supposed to be then??

Take into consideration that a Milo with +Def Nature and 252 Def EVs when its afflicted by a status affliction practically has more than 140 Base Def.


ViralKite said:
I suggest if you wish to use bulky waters such as Milotic make sure to have intimidated said opponent beforehand! Since it forces a switch or the oppenent will be stuck with the cut attack! Intimidate is a must IMO! This can be said about any type of pokemon besides bulky waters anyways.​
Click to expand...

Yay, Intimidate is annoyin but best to keep the Intimidator in than switchin' to a Bulky Water.

Gyarados is a cool Intimidater because of nice resistances and good HP and Defenses, also has Dragon Dance and Taunt to setup when the foe is switchin' :D

Salamence also has nice resistances but it's better as CSMence for me :P

Tauros is meh because of no resistances, stil I have one in Netbattle that works like wonders with Double-Edge and Choice Band :D.

Arcanine is only good against Infernape but only switchin' into the Flamethrowers/Grass Knots
 
Yeah, Swampy's the only bulky water along with Slowbro that I'll use this gen. The others either: lack resistances or just don't have the defenses to take on the sweepers in D/P.
 
Swampert, although now faces the threat of Grass Knot, is still a great bulky water because it sets up Stealth Rock, can switch into rocks (Rhyinferior, Ttar), and own them with STABed Earthquakes or Hydro Pumps. Although he allows a lot of free switch ins, he's the pogey that causes some Electivires to carry HP Grass (also for Rhyperior too). The only real reason why some Metagross carry Grass Knot (Rhyperior can get Meteor Mashed)
 
Bulky waters just aren't as good as tanks as they used to be, simply because the sweepers evolved(figurativly) and they didn't... atleast tank-y wise.

However, I plan on using my bulky waters as supports and pseudo sweepers on my RD team, although it still needs to be tested, if it works, I'll be able to use some of my favourite pokemon(Suicune and Ludicolo) without having to worry about them being 'outdated.(there's no good tailwinder out there except suicune, remember that)'
 
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