Shell Armor = Sturdy actually does nothing for Cloyster either because Overcoat also has this effect thanks to Cloyster being Hail immune. Maybe turning it into a Solid Rock/Filter clone for Cloyster? Or chucking in an actual useful stat raise (akin to the fossils which are not just boosting highest stat). Or mabe an acc boost for Rock Blast/Razor Shell? I dunno just spitballing here
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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk II
- Thread starter Dogfish44
- Start date
- Status
Erm...I would like a definitive answer on Beat Up, No Guard and Endeavour. While discussions are lovely, they mean nothing if no decisions are made.
I am happy with either a discussion topic or an administrative decision. But I believe the feedback showed that the subject warrants some discussion on an specific thread.
I am happy with either a discussion topic or an administrative decision. But I believe the feedback showed that the subject warrants some discussion on an specific thread.
Didn't Texas Cloverleaf fiat that Beat Up caps at 6?
I did fiat Beat Up as 6 hits cap. For the BXPY, the format is 3v3 singles (for example) so it would get 3 hits when all 3 Pokemon are still alive.
No Guard: I'm seeing mostly opposition to the proposal as well as mirroring its in-game affect, No Guard will continue to affect damaging evasive.
Endeavour: Send it to discussion, numerous ideas about how to go about it.
Water Stone: Surprisingly I support parts of ww's proposal. I don't see it as buff culture but rather allowing the item to affect all of its holders relatively equally. Could use more discussion here, potentially a discussion thread.
Frosty Endeavor was your proposal so I'll allow you to create the OP of that thread the way you want the issue to be presented.
No Guard: I'm seeing mostly opposition to the proposal as well as mirroring its in-game affect, No Guard will continue to affect damaging evasive.
Endeavour: Send it to discussion, numerous ideas about how to go about it.
Water Stone: Surprisingly I support parts of ww's proposal. I don't see it as buff culture but rather allowing the item to affect all of its holders relatively equally. Could use more discussion here, potentially a discussion thread.
Frosty Endeavor was your proposal so I'll allow you to create the OP of that thread the way you want the issue to be presented.
Actually it would cause attacks against Cloyster to have -2 BAP instead of -1. Though I think all attempts to boost Water Stone on Cloyster will end up being worst than King's Rock I like this suggestion, it's simple and gives Cloyster the ability to become a Physical wall (rank 8 Def with Double Sturdy). Starmie's boost would also give the item a niche over Expert Belt.
I could not disagree with IAR more, you are just being a shitty pedant. If someone sends out and megas on that same post it counts as mega-evolving a1 the first time that pokemon attacks (so if you do end up switching out immediately because of a switch phase initiation, you switch back in non-mega and mevolve first time you order with that mon). It's kind of like when we debated ko subs, except that iar already spent more energy bitching about it than all the refs in the world will ever spend dealing with mega-evolving pokes on sendout. There's no need to punish people for this syntax, and it's just another example of asb being the reign of the annoying people who never progressed past Kohlberg's Stage IV.
Just to clarify things, this isn't meant to make Water Stone a godly item for Cloyster/Starmie, it's to make it so that a sig item affects its users at least somewhat equally, like Tex said. Whether other items are better isn't really relevant.Gerard said:
And despite Pwne's post making me search Kohlberg's Stage IV on Google, I couldn't agree with Pwne more. If we're punishing people for improper syntax (which, in the case that started all this, was just putting mega evolve above the line of orders instead of next to it), it's like counting a typo is an illegal order (i.e. Sandstrom instead of Sandstorm or Anceint Power instead of Ancient Power, not Magic Coat instead of Mirror Coat). Also, we can sub for mega evolutions, but then we come to something like "If Counter, change that action to (Mega Evolve) Surf" which activates A2, but you already mega evolved A1, so does the whole thing fail? Does it not and we just ignore the mega evolve part? It's another can of worms in itself.
tl;dr
Unless they specifically say that they mega evolve A2 or A3 and NOT A1, yeah pretty much.IAR said:
I think that if you're dumb enough to sacrifice the technical option of not mega-evolving on the first round, great. You have that right. Don't cry when it comes back to bite you. I also really don't care as in 100% competitive matches (both players make the absolute most strategic moves possible for their situation) it would never happen. It's a little thing like allowing BW OU Latias to run full SpA IVs. Will it make a difference? Probably not? Would a player seeking to maximize every advantage ever do it? No.
Back to the EN cost rule for speed, I remember there being a rule like that at the very beginning of the game but can't remember it being invoked after. It makes sense, though. Adds some strategy in the few situations it comes up and indirectly nerfs high power moves and taunt-like pseudo-status moves. I support it.
RE: Water Stone
Sure. It makes sense if that item is a thing.
Back to the EN cost rule for speed, I remember there being a rule like that at the very beginning of the game but can't remember it being invoked after. It makes sense, though. Adds some strategy in the few situations it comes up and indirectly nerfs high power moves and taunt-like pseudo-status moves. I support it.
RE: Water Stone
Sure. It makes sense if that item is a thing.
Hey since there is support for making water stone affect all of its users we should do this fun thing for musharna and clefable that i proposed:
Ignoring the straightforward BAP buff and rank-raising, which are pretty standard for sig items, the recoil only affects a few Moon Stone Pokemon. Delcatty is the primary user, while Wigglytuff and the Nidos get other minor benefits from it. Clefable and Musharna gain nothing from this effect, as the former has Magic Guard already and the latter doesn't even learn recoil moves. This moonlight clause would provide a unique, flavorful, and good effect to these two Pokemon.Moon Stone said:
Holy crap a wild ad hominem argument appeared!
Saying that my arguments should be refuted on the basis of my supposed pedantry among other things is downright wrong & I will not tolerate such a shitty argument lol. It is like me rejecting your argument on the basis that you are Pwnemon, which is in itself wrong. As I said, it might be logical to refer it to A1, but you cannot be 100% certain that it is their intent. It is like using Light Screen in a raid without the glyph & not specifying the three Pokémon to use it on; You are expecting the referee to be able to read your mind, which they obviously cannot. Putting the mega evolve thing in your action string is not a "hard concept to grasp" (as you like to put things), & like I said, Mega Evolution on send-out is non existent in-game, & declaring that you are going to Mega Evolve on send out only to switch is basically back-flipping & is also illogical.
Besides in a serious match, no one in their right mind should be bothering with Mega Evolving on send-out because it is of a net negative to the player, especially if you were due to order second. It is a redundant mechanic that offers no benefit to the player, & we are wasting our time implementing Mega Evolutions on send-out, when there is a better thing to do (read below).
We are not arguing over order syntax, we are arguing over Mega Evolving on send-out. You are straw-manning on the basis that my argument against Mega Evolving on send-out is wrong on the basis of order syntax, which is not the complete basis of my argument. Also if you actually read the battle, you would realise that the Mega Evolution would have been overridden by the Substitution anyway, since [Mega Evolve] Close Combat would have been replaced by Feint.
That said, maybe I simply misunderstood the actual mechanics of Mega Evolution (I treat it like when you boost an attack with a Gem, where the specific action only occurs alongside that particular order. This is probably better for balance than always mega evolving on that action no matter what). It is pretty obvious that my understanding does not match the understandings of other users. Maybe a discussion on Mega Evolutions in general is needed. The fact that the Mega Evolution mechanics in itself is vague in terms of how it is done. Read the mechanics:
Does it tell you that Mega Evolutions occur irrespective of Substitutions? No. Does it tell you what I interpreted? No. Does it tell you that you can Mega Evolve on send-out? No. Instead of discussing exclusively on send-out, how about actually codify the damn thing so we can be all on an equal footing? If anything is for certain, we are all not on the same page, which is where the conflict is occurring. Resolve it through an exhaustive discussion so the conflicts cannot happen in the future.
This. This is all I want. Have the rules for Mega Evolutions be written down somewhere so we all know what can and cannot happen. The whole issue stems from Mega Evolution rules being kept secret from everyone other than the person who added Mega Evolutions to ASB, which results in everyone else guessing what is allowed and is not allowed, leading to confusion when one person allows one thing and another does not allow it.
I am the one who was screwed by this, yet all I am asking is for things to be codified. I, quite frankly, don't give a damn if it is codified in my favor. Just get a set of rules we all can follow and stop bitching about the injustice of everyone's personal interpretation.
If you don't know, I recently made a blunder in calculating damages (I can assume rom the amount of flaming I'm getting, most of you do) due to the wording of damage descriptions.
Both of these state that Attack/Defense ranks up to 6 are raised by 1.5, which means that 1=2.5, 2=3.5, 3=4.5, 4=5.5, 5=6.5 & 6=7.5. After rank 6, the attack/defense ranks are raised by one, therefore 7=8, 8=9 etc. Obviously, being the worst ref in the world, etc. from interpreting the rules in this manner, I am well aware NOW that you don't add, but multiply. Therefore, The wording of these descriptions should be little more clear, along the lines of "Attack/Defense Ranks up to 6 are MULTIPLIED by 1.5 and after 6 there are kept AS IS.
Anyway, thanks for being the supportive network I always knew you to be, Smogon, and thanks for taking the time to read this message.
Both of these state that Attack/Defense ranks up to 6 are raised by 1.5, which means that 1=2.5, 2=3.5, 3=4.5, 4=5.5, 5=6.5 & 6=7.5. After rank 6, the attack/defense ranks are raised by one, therefore 7=8, 8=9 etc. Obviously, being the worst ref in the world, etc. from interpreting the rules in this manner, I am well aware NOW that you don't add, but multiply. Therefore, The wording of these descriptions should be little more clear, along the lines of "Attack/Defense Ranks up to 6 are MULTIPLIED by 1.5 and after 6 there are kept AS IS.
Anyway, thanks for being the supportive network I always knew you to be, Smogon, and thanks for taking the time to read this message.
No, they state that the Rank Bonus is raised by 1.5, not the rank itself. The Attack/Defense Rank Bonus is a variable in the damage formula calculated based on the rank being used. Each rank up to and including rank 6 adds 1.5 to the Rank Bonus part of the damage formula, while each rank after 6 adds 1 to the Rank Bonus part of the damage formula. Note that the ranks themselves never show up in the formula.
The handbook
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I agree with Akela about the need to clarify rules about Mega Evolutions before delve into this further. It should also warrant a discussion thread of its own.
About Water Stone, I feel WW's suggestions hold some merit. Clearly, due to the large variety of offensive items available (especially for Starmie), the best way to differentiate Water Stone is to make it a more defensively-minded item for Cloyster and Starmie (as it is for Ludicolo, Vappy, etc). About Cloyster, I think adding a Filter effect would be more useful than a Sturdy effect, because Cloyster has a rather impressive amount of weaknesses. About Starmie, the Natural Cure boost is right on the spot. From in-game experience, the best defensive boon for a sweeper is status protection, and WW's suggestion does exactly this.
Oh, and Pwnemon, Kohlberg's stages are bullshit, I've spent quite some time shooting them down in my graduation thesis^^
About Water Stone, I feel WW's suggestions hold some merit. Clearly, due to the large variety of offensive items available (especially for Starmie), the best way to differentiate Water Stone is to make it a more defensively-minded item for Cloyster and Starmie (as it is for Ludicolo, Vappy, etc). About Cloyster, I think adding a Filter effect would be more useful than a Sturdy effect, because Cloyster has a rather impressive amount of weaknesses. About Starmie, the Natural Cure boost is right on the spot. From in-game experience, the best defensive boon for a sweeper is status protection, and WW's suggestion does exactly this.
Oh, and Pwnemon, Kohlberg's stages are bullshit, I've spent quite some time shooting them down in my graduation thesis^^
I'm aware that they are useless for determining how you act in a given situation since that's largely emotional but they are still a good measure of how people justify their behavior to themselves. "Kohlberg's stages of moral bullshit" would be a better name tho
Life Orb
Currently, unless my ASB experience is somewhat skewed, it seems this item is vastly underused - mainly because it is kinda bad compared to its alternatives. An extra 3 BP on all attacks is good... until you realize that you're also losing 2 HP every time you attack. That alone makes this item undesireable for most trainers, and generally inferior to its alternatives, from the signature items to Expert Belt.
For this reason, I'm proposing to buff Life Orb slightly - or better said, to revise some of the (frankly excessive) nerfs we applied to this item in ASB. I'm thinking mainly to the interaction of this item with Magic Guard and Sheer Force. As most of you know, these two abilities currently don't negate Life Orb recoil. I think we should reconsider this point.
Life Orb and Magic Guard: This is perhaps the most appalling of the two cases. For those who don't know, only five FE Pokemon currently have Magic Guard: Alakazam, Sigilyph, Clefable, Reuniclus, and Krilowatt. Three of them are Psychic-type and are hit hard by Knock Off and Thief. The other two have an incredible coverage, and when using Expert Belt and hitting supereffectively, their power is only 1 BP weaker than it would be if they were using Life Orb. The idea recoil-less Life Orb would break any of these five Pokemon is questionable at best.
Life Orb and Sheer Force: This is admittenly more complex, since the list of Sheer Force Pokemon is a bit longer. Not counting legendaries, we have: Conkeldurr, Darmanitan, Druddigon, Braviary, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Steelix, Kingler, Tauros, Feraligatr, Hariyama, Mawile, and Rampardos.
Now... Mawile hardly counts because without Mawilite it's pretty much worthless (and Everstone is superior anyway). Kingler and Tauros don't have many ways to abuse Sheer Force significantly. As for the others:
Conkeldurr: Dynamicpunch and elemental punches are the main Sheer Force moves here. Elemental Punches are gonna strike supereffectively in most cases, so Expert Belt would be pretty much equivalent. As for Dynamicpunch... its subpar accuracy makes it a bit questionable.
Darmanitan: Flare Blitz is pretty potent, I'll give you that - even if the recoil is pretty intense. Then there is Fire Punch, Rock Slide... I am a bit on the fence on this
Druddigon/Steelix/Nidoqueen/Nidoking/Hariyama/Rampardos: Most of the Sheer Force arsenal is made of coverage moves, so once again, the difference from Expert Belt is small. Even when some of these Pokemon have STAB attacks that would benefit from Sheer Force (Steelix's Iron Tail, Nidoking's Sludge Bomb), these STAB moves are generally inferior to the SE attacks when they hit the target neutrally, or have stronger alternatives in the Pokemon's arsenal (such as Gyro Ball for Steelix).
Braviary: Sky Attack is pretty much the only real concern here.
Feraligatr: Pretty much ALL of Feraligatr's attacks are boosted by Sheer Force... but I can't really see Feraligatr to be strong enough in ASB to be broken by something like this
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As you may have noticed if you read the above, a lot of my argument relies on the entire idea of "when hitting SE, Life Orb is only slightly better than Expert Belt and thus isn't broken". I can see some of you being a bit uneasy with this point, but you should also consider that the amount of ways to neutralize Life Orb is pretty large - more than you may think.
Knock Off, Thief, Covet, Trick, Switcheroo, as well as the Pick Pocket and Magician abilities, can all mess up with Life Orb. Meanwhile, Skill Swap, Entrainment and Gastro Acid can negate Sheer Force and/or Magic Guard. Now, this doesn't want to sound like a "any item goes" argument. The idea I'm trying to conveying here is that there are enough ways to take out an item to make that +1 BP kind of pointless in most situations
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Alternatively...
If you don't like the idea of making Magic Guard and/or Sheer Force Pokemon immune to LO recoil, we could consider reducing the HP recoil to 1. This would put Life Orb more on par with Expert Belt, trading the ability to hit harder with neutral hits for 1 HP of recoil each round. This could make Life Orb attractive for those Pokemon that sport powerful STAB attacks but also some important coverage moves.
Tl;dr: I propose we adopt any of the following solutions:
1) Make Magic Guard Pokemon immune to Life Orb recoil
2) Make Sheer Force Pokemon immune to Life Orb recoil
3) Make Magic Guard and Sheer Force Pokemon immune to Life Orb recoil
4) Reduce Life Orb's recoil to 1 HP per attack instead of 2
Currently, unless my ASB experience is somewhat skewed, it seems this item is vastly underused - mainly because it is kinda bad compared to its alternatives. An extra 3 BP on all attacks is good... until you realize that you're also losing 2 HP every time you attack. That alone makes this item undesireable for most trainers, and generally inferior to its alternatives, from the signature items to Expert Belt.
For this reason, I'm proposing to buff Life Orb slightly - or better said, to revise some of the (frankly excessive) nerfs we applied to this item in ASB. I'm thinking mainly to the interaction of this item with Magic Guard and Sheer Force. As most of you know, these two abilities currently don't negate Life Orb recoil. I think we should reconsider this point.
Life Orb and Magic Guard: This is perhaps the most appalling of the two cases. For those who don't know, only five FE Pokemon currently have Magic Guard: Alakazam, Sigilyph, Clefable, Reuniclus, and Krilowatt. Three of them are Psychic-type and are hit hard by Knock Off and Thief. The other two have an incredible coverage, and when using Expert Belt and hitting supereffectively, their power is only 1 BP weaker than it would be if they were using Life Orb. The idea recoil-less Life Orb would break any of these five Pokemon is questionable at best.
Life Orb and Sheer Force: This is admittenly more complex, since the list of Sheer Force Pokemon is a bit longer. Not counting legendaries, we have: Conkeldurr, Darmanitan, Druddigon, Braviary, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Steelix, Kingler, Tauros, Feraligatr, Hariyama, Mawile, and Rampardos.
Now... Mawile hardly counts because without Mawilite it's pretty much worthless (and Everstone is superior anyway). Kingler and Tauros don't have many ways to abuse Sheer Force significantly. As for the others:
Conkeldurr: Dynamicpunch and elemental punches are the main Sheer Force moves here. Elemental Punches are gonna strike supereffectively in most cases, so Expert Belt would be pretty much equivalent. As for Dynamicpunch... its subpar accuracy makes it a bit questionable.
Darmanitan: Flare Blitz is pretty potent, I'll give you that - even if the recoil is pretty intense. Then there is Fire Punch, Rock Slide... I am a bit on the fence on this
Druddigon/Steelix/Nidoqueen/Nidoking/Hariyama/Rampardos: Most of the Sheer Force arsenal is made of coverage moves, so once again, the difference from Expert Belt is small. Even when some of these Pokemon have STAB attacks that would benefit from Sheer Force (Steelix's Iron Tail, Nidoking's Sludge Bomb), these STAB moves are generally inferior to the SE attacks when they hit the target neutrally, or have stronger alternatives in the Pokemon's arsenal (such as Gyro Ball for Steelix).
Braviary: Sky Attack is pretty much the only real concern here.
Feraligatr: Pretty much ALL of Feraligatr's attacks are boosted by Sheer Force... but I can't really see Feraligatr to be strong enough in ASB to be broken by something like this
------------------------------------------
As you may have noticed if you read the above, a lot of my argument relies on the entire idea of "when hitting SE, Life Orb is only slightly better than Expert Belt and thus isn't broken". I can see some of you being a bit uneasy with this point, but you should also consider that the amount of ways to neutralize Life Orb is pretty large - more than you may think.
Knock Off, Thief, Covet, Trick, Switcheroo, as well as the Pick Pocket and Magician abilities, can all mess up with Life Orb. Meanwhile, Skill Swap, Entrainment and Gastro Acid can negate Sheer Force and/or Magic Guard. Now, this doesn't want to sound like a "any item goes" argument. The idea I'm trying to conveying here is that there are enough ways to take out an item to make that +1 BP kind of pointless in most situations
------------------------------------------
Alternatively...
If you don't like the idea of making Magic Guard and/or Sheer Force Pokemon immune to LO recoil, we could consider reducing the HP recoil to 1. This would put Life Orb more on par with Expert Belt, trading the ability to hit harder with neutral hits for 1 HP of recoil each round. This could make Life Orb attractive for those Pokemon that sport powerful STAB attacks but also some important coverage moves.
Tl;dr: I propose we adopt any of the following solutions:
1) Make Magic Guard Pokemon immune to Life Orb recoil
2) Make Sheer Force Pokemon immune to Life Orb recoil
3) Make Magic Guard and Sheer Force Pokemon immune to Life Orb recoil
4) Reduce Life Orb's recoil to 1 HP per attack instead of 2
I agree with solution three and maybe also solution four. Life Orb is really weak compared to Expert Belt in a game where the overwhelming majority of the time a well-trained Pokemon can hit the opponent for super effective damage. And breaking Endures is bad enough in ASB before two recoil is factored in.
Pursuit's description is not clear on what happens when it is used against moves like Baton Pass, Parting Shot, U-Turn, and Volt Switch. The NDA implies that the move (the switching move) fails altogether while the DAT implies only the phazing effect is negated but the move still deals damage. In-game, Pursuit doesn't affect those moves nor teleport. So which version of Pursuit is correct? The one that causes switching moves to fail or the one that negates phazing effects? Need to clarify this. If Pursuit was updated in the NDA, someone should really post in the update log that they updated it.
EDIT:
2 issues in one day, how nice.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3v3-triples-lc-geodude6-versus-youngjake93.3500812/
Perish Song mechanics and payout need to be discussed/clarified. Someone was under the impression if you survived until the end of perish song with all 3 pokemon still alive, each pokemon would get 1 KOC per opponent that lasted. Wonderful counterfarming implications.
EDIT:
2 issues in one day, how nice.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3v3-triples-lc-geodude6-versus-youngjake93.3500812/
Perish Song mechanics and payout need to be discussed/clarified. Someone was under the impression if you survived until the end of perish song with all 3 pokemon still alive, each pokemon would get 1 KOC per opponent that lasted. Wonderful counterfarming implications.
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I've noticed a bit of an inconsistency in how Yawn functions, specifically attempts to block it...
This is the NDA description of Yawn:
"The user yawns loudly, forcing the opponent to think of sleeping and making them drowsy. Once afflicted by Yawn, the target Pokemon will fall asleep at the end of the first action of the following round. Yawn is blocked if a Substitute is presently up, but will not be blocked by a Substitute used after it takes effect. This move will fail if the opponent cannot hear the user."
Judging by the text "This move will fail if the opponent cannot hear the user", It would follow that Soundproof would block yawn however it is not classified as a sound move (in game or in ASB). For the sake of consistency Yawn should either have that portion of text omitted or be added to the list of moves blocked by Soundproof. Given how most real yawns work (silently) I am of the opinion that the description should be closer to that of Taunt, specifically the following section "If the Pokemon is unable to witness the Taunt, like if it is asleep, the move fails; a Pokemon being ordered to look away does not make it fail."
Additionally I've also noticed that Sounproof's list of sound based moves is outdated. Boomburst, Disarming Voice, and Eerie Impluse are all blocked in game while the NDA description reads as follows: "Known sound moves: Bug Buzz, Chatter, Echoed Voice, Grass Whistle, Growl, Heal Bell, Hyper Voice, Metal Sound, Perish Song, Relic Song, Roar, Round, Screech, Sing, Snarl, Snore, Supersonic, Uproar"
This is the NDA description of Yawn:
"The user yawns loudly, forcing the opponent to think of sleeping and making them drowsy. Once afflicted by Yawn, the target Pokemon will fall asleep at the end of the first action of the following round. Yawn is blocked if a Substitute is presently up, but will not be blocked by a Substitute used after it takes effect. This move will fail if the opponent cannot hear the user."
Judging by the text "This move will fail if the opponent cannot hear the user", It would follow that Soundproof would block yawn however it is not classified as a sound move (in game or in ASB). For the sake of consistency Yawn should either have that portion of text omitted or be added to the list of moves blocked by Soundproof. Given how most real yawns work (silently) I am of the opinion that the description should be closer to that of Taunt, specifically the following section "If the Pokemon is unable to witness the Taunt, like if it is asleep, the move fails; a Pokemon being ordered to look away does not make it fail."
Additionally I've also noticed that Sounproof's list of sound based moves is outdated. Boomburst, Disarming Voice, and Eerie Impluse are all blocked in game while the NDA description reads as follows: "Known sound moves: Bug Buzz, Chatter, Echoed Voice, Grass Whistle, Growl, Heal Bell, Hyper Voice, Metal Sound, Perish Song, Relic Song, Roar, Round, Screech, Sing, Snarl, Snore, Supersonic, Uproar"
Life Orb: In complete agreement with 3 & 4 for the reasons in zarator's post.
Pursuit: Agree with the DAT as it makes the most sense, Self-Phasing moves are completely different in ASB as ingame so we shouldn't go with that and is doesn't make sense for the switch to fail (I run away and someone pursues me, causing me to stop running away?)
Yawn: imo just remove the part about sound blocking it, we should go with ingame here.
Soundproof: Support an update to ingame.
Pursuit: Agree with the DAT as it makes the most sense, Self-Phasing moves are completely different in ASB as ingame so we shouldn't go with that and is doesn't make sense for the switch to fail (I run away and someone pursues me, causing me to stop running away?)
Yawn: imo just remove the part about sound blocking it, we should go with ingame here.
Soundproof: Support an update to ingame.
I agree with Ute on Yawn and Soundproof. I don't care which way Yawn goes as long as a decision is made.
Life Orb:
I don't support making Magic Guard/Sheer Force mons immune to LO recoil. IIRC Sheer Force mons are only immune to it because of a bug. Regarding Magic Guard, I believe Magic Guard used to give an immunity to LO recoil, and it got changed because it broke Krilowatt. I do, however, support reducing LO recoil to 1 dpa.
Pursuit:
I think we should make it so Pursuit does the double damage against opponents using self-phazing moves, but make the move still succeed. This goes with in-game precedent. IIRC Pursuit does double damage against Pokemon using Agility evasively, so let's make Teleport users take double damage from Pursuit as well.
Perish Song:
Yes, that was me laboring under the mistaken impression that all my moms would get 3 KOC if I didn't damage any Pokemon. And yes, that is broken as fuck. I suggested on irc that the KOC of undamaged mons fainted by Perish Song should go to the Perish Song user.
Yawn & Soundproof:
General consensus here seems to be that we should go with ingame precedent, and I agree.
I don't support making Magic Guard/Sheer Force mons immune to LO recoil. IIRC Sheer Force mons are only immune to it because of a bug. Regarding Magic Guard, I believe Magic Guard used to give an immunity to LO recoil, and it got changed because it broke Krilowatt. I do, however, support reducing LO recoil to 1 dpa.
Pursuit:
I think we should make it so Pursuit does the double damage against opponents using self-phazing moves, but make the move still succeed. This goes with in-game precedent. IIRC Pursuit does double damage against Pokemon using Agility evasively, so let's make Teleport users take double damage from Pursuit as well.
Perish Song:
Yes, that was me laboring under the mistaken impression that all my moms would get 3 KOC if I didn't damage any Pokemon. And yes, that is broken as fuck. I suggested on irc that the KOC of undamaged mons fainted by Perish Song should go to the Perish Song user.
Yawn & Soundproof:
General consensus here seems to be that we should go with ingame precedent, and I agree.
The bolded part is incorrect. We supposed it WOULD broke Krilowatt, and so we ruled Magic Guard to not prevent Life Orb recoil since the very beginning of ASB. It has never been tested otherwise.
Immunity to on sheer force and magic guard makes life orb a situational item. While it isn't a situational item in-game.
Most users of those ability are actually pretty good. To buff life orb to them will boost the mons, but not Life Orb itself.
Also, 15BAP Elemental punches on Conkeldurr with 0 drawback is something I'd rather avoid.
I'd be more in favor of it dealing/receiving 2/1 instead of 3/2. Most 130% abilities boost moves by 2 and not by 3, so it would make sense. Also, I feel it would be enough of a boost without breaking any specific mon and Life Orb will continue to be a general item.
Most users of those ability are actually pretty good. To buff life orb to them will boost the mons, but not Life Orb itself.
Also, 15BAP Elemental punches on Conkeldurr with 0 drawback is something I'd rather avoid.
I'd be more in favor of it dealing/receiving 2/1 instead of 3/2. Most 130% abilities boost moves by 2 and not by 3, so it would make sense. Also, I feel it would be enough of a boost without breaking any specific mon and Life Orb will continue to be a general item.
Here is a suggestion to possibly quell these suggestions of whether Krilowatt/Conkeldurr/etc would be broken with recoil-less Life Orb or not.
Make some random arena with an effect that removes Life Orb recoil from those Pokémon, then get some guy with a Krilowatt/Conkeldurr/whatever to play against someone else on that arena, & live test it so we have an idea of whether it is broken or not.
I mean, it kinda worked when I deliberately made an arena with zero decay outside of Anger Point to try & illustrate a statement (well, not exactly, but I felt that decay kinda mattered a bit there, though that is debatable). So if you want to test if something is broken or not, then why not live test it in those conditions?
Well, one battle does not give a great idea of it, but you could try to at least infer something from it.
Make some random arena with an effect that removes Life Orb recoil from those Pokémon, then get some guy with a Krilowatt/Conkeldurr/whatever to play against someone else on that arena, & live test it so we have an idea of whether it is broken or not.
I mean, it kinda worked when I deliberately made an arena with zero decay outside of Anger Point to try & illustrate a statement (well, not exactly, but I felt that decay kinda mattered a bit there, though that is debatable). So if you want to test if something is broken or not, then why not live test it in those conditions?
Well, one battle does not give a great idea of it, but you could try to at least infer something from it.
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