Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Texas Cloverleaf]

IAR has sufficiently demonstrated that Big Root is broke so I'm going to propose a slight adjustment to make it merely excellent.

Currently: Makes draining moves heal twice as much as they normally would

Proposed: Makes draining moves heal twice as much as they normally would up to a cap of 100% damage dealt

Like if agree



edit: example

15:44 Texas well imo healing 22.5 HP while dealing 15 damage is broken
15:45 Texas that's a 37.5 spread
15:45 Texas on a move that costs 6 EN with draining kiss
15:45 dogfish44 SE Hit (5 v 3) would do 16.5 Damage and heal 24.75 for 9.5 EN. Hmm, that may actually be a problem. I should invest in a big root anyway, and I think we should first consider raising the EN Cost on DK at least ¬¬'
15:45 Texas the strongest single attackes in the game hit about 36

 

[Elevator Music]

Proposing that Grassy Terrain weaken the BAP of Earthquake/Bulldoze/Magnitude(/Fissure) by some amount (3?) to reflect its ingame effect of halving their damage.

 

[deadfox081]

I have to agree with Texas that Big Root should cap at 100% damage to healing ratio. Frankly I thought it did anyway which is why I originally reffed as such. Draining Kiss is the only move that really throws it out as the rest heal for 50% base anyway iirc. I think really the cap is all that is necessary. Draining Kiss healing 75% at the base level seems fair to me thanks to its poor distribution and low base power.

EDIT: Also seconding EM and agreeing that -3 BAP seems fair and in accordance with other ASB precedent.

 

[akela]

I disagree with -3 BAP. It differs from Misty Terrain, which only reduces the BAP of Dragon-Type attacks by 2 BAP.

 

[Dogfish44]

Disagreeing with Texas, Big Root Draining Kiss and Big Root Giga Drain are similar in damage difference in many scenarios - the issue is with Draining Kiss, which should be updated to a substantially higher EN (I'd say 12, to match Giga Drain). Remove the ability for D.K. to be so spammable and the problem will likely be resolved if I'm honest.

I also prefer -2 to Seismic Attacks, to keep in line with Misty Terrain.

 

[Gerard]

Why don't we boost Misty Terrain then? -3 would keep it in like with the weather reduction of Fire and Water moves (and almost every other 50% in ASB transforms into a +/- 3 in damage so it adds to the consistency)

 

[akela]

How about we don't edit 20 moves just to make 1 move stronger?

 

[Gerard]

What 20 moves? I'm only sporting a boost to Misty Terrain to make it stand on equal footing with the weathers? Which makes sense both flavor-wise and helps keep them consistent. (They cost the same and have similar effects).

Also I don't think boosting the energy cost of Draining Kiss up to 12 is fair, the BP between them is very significant, to the point where DK isn't a real coverage option unlike both Draining Punch or Mega Drain. So a cost of 9 energy would be imo a much more reasonable cost as it prevents you from spamming the move with big root (13.5 energy), but doesn't make the move unusable without it.

PS: If Draining Kiss is getting a nerf then why not Parabolic Charge? Same BP and if you've seen a brawl with a helio in it you'll see how much it can heal for the cost

 

[Elevator Music]

We need to update and possibly redefine our list of anime and manga moves. We're missing a couple moves from the following:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Anime_move_errors
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Manga_move_errors

Anime:
Pikachu: Leer
Wooper: Tackle
Pupitar: Take Down
Dragonair: Flash
Piplup: Water Gun
Fletchling: Feather Dance
Corsola: Water Gun

Manga (Pokemon Adventures):
Munna: Teleport


For manga specifically, what sources are we pulling from? I had assumed that it was solely Pokemon Adventures. However, Dogfish tentatively added the "Pokemon Pocket Monsters" moves for Clefairy a couple weeks ago (hope this doesn't come across as a callout, it's not meant to be and I doubt it was an individual decision). I'm not going to lie, I'm bringing this up mostly because I think it's very poweful to add Transform to Clefable, but it's in general a discussion that should be had anyways. Also, if we do add them we should add Tackle to Cleffa and Comet Punch to Machamp, and consider giving Stomp to Bayleef (Golden Boys manga). But yeah basically in a nutshell: Should we use just Pokemon Adventures manga moves, or other sources as well?

For anime, should we include Japanese only/Dub only errors? We don't currently, but if we decide to expand the scope of manga moves we might as well consider it for anime?

 

[Psyco_Josho]

I noticed that on the NDA description of Knock Off, it says that its power does not increase versus Sticky Hold mons. But I quite distinctly remember asking about this very thing on a previous Battle Mechanics Research thread, and what I got was that it was boosted anyway.

I didn't find my question, but the same question was asked here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-mechanics-research.3489239/page-57#post-5452900

And the answer is in the very next reply.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I don't really care for this discussion so I'm going to be a power abusing bastard and a) fiat implement the listed omissions Emma outlined above and b) fiat that we only pull from Pokemon Adventures for move errors. Also fiating a giant FUCK NO to dub errors (worst idea ever). Someone with NDA power implement this pls (Pwnemon or @akela?)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

19:56 Texas oh btw
19:56 Texas anyone object if we hotfix Assault Vest
19:56 Texas to allow chill

 

[Elevator Music]

Can we add a sub class for Damaging Healing Moves (Absorb, Leech Life, Mega Drain, Dream Eater, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, Horn Leech, Draining Kiss, Parabolic Charge, Oblivion Wing, anything I am missing???)?

 

[akela]

Can we add a sub class for Damaging Healing Moves (Absorb, Leech Life, Mega Drain, Dream Eater, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, Horn Leech, Draining Kiss, Parabolic Charge, Oblivion Wing, anything I am missing???)?

Pain Split. And I would say you should bring that up in the substitutions overhaul thread.

 

[Objection]

Pain Split isn't damaging and isn't necessarily healing.

 

[ZhengTann]

EM put stuff up about QG / WG:

kinda lazy proposal here: make quick guard and wide guard act like they do ingame (in terms of stuff like blocking gale wings/etc, being able to be used consecutively in some cases or w/e)

While Wide Guard is easy to implement, Quick Guard specifically blocks only moves that were originally of increased priority, which is different from in-catridge (bear in mind that Light Metal and Float Stone may also increase priorities of certain moves in ASB, not just Gale Wings and Prankster). Like if you think this needs to be changed or discussed, I suppose?

 

[Dogfish44]

RE Damaging Healling: Move to substitutions overhaul, I don't see it being too much of a problem to implement though.

RE WG/QG: When it comes to QG, having it simply block any move executed at +1 or above prio (Regardless of original prio) seems simple enough to implement.

 

[Elevator Music]

some event moves that should be added:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Japanese_event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_II
Phanpy: Encore

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w...event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_III
Metang: Refresh

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w..._event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_IV
Charmander: Quick Attack, Howl
Pikachu: Last Resort, Yawn

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w...e_event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_V
Jirachi: Meteor Mash, Follow Me
Audino: Present

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Gotta_Catch_'Em_All_event_Pokémon
Spearow: Sonic Boom
Wobbuffet: Mimic

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

We need to update and possibly redefine our list of anime and manga moves. We're missing a couple moves from the following:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Anime_move_errors
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Manga_move_errors

Anime:
Pikachu: Leer
Wooper: Tackle
Pupitar: Take Down
Dragonair: Flash
Piplup: Water Gun
Fletchling: Feather Dance
Corsola: Water Gun

Manga (Pokemon Adventures):
Munna: Teleport


For manga specifically, what sources are we pulling from? I had assumed that it was solely Pokemon Adventures. However, Dogfish tentatively added the "Pokemon Pocket Monsters" moves for Clefairy a couple weeks ago (hope this doesn't come across as a callout, it's not meant to be and I doubt it was an individual decision). I'm not going to lie, I'm bringing this up mostly because I think it's very poweful to add Transform to Clefable, but it's in general a discussion that should be had anyways. Also, if we do add them we should add Tackle to Cleffa and Comet Punch to Machamp, and consider giving Stomp to Bayleef (Golden Boys manga). But yeah basically in a nutshell: Should we use just Pokemon Adventures manga moves, or other sources as well?

For anime, should we include Japanese only/Dub only errors? We don't currently, but if we decide to expand the scope of manga moves we might as well consider it for anime?

This is done

19:56 Texas oh btw
19:56 Texas anyone object if we hotfix Assault Vest
19:56 Texas to allow chill

This is done

some event moves that should be added:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Japanese_event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_II
Phanpy: Encore

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Japanese_event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_III
Metang: Refresh

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_local_Japanese_event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_IV
Charmander: Quick Attack, Howl
Pikachu: Last Resort, Yawn

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_local_Japanese_event_Pokémon_distributions_in_Generation_V
Jirachi: Meteor Mash, Follow Me
Audino: Present

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Gotta_Catch_'Em_All_event_Pokémon
Spearow: Sonic Boom
Wobbuffet: Mimic

This is done

 

[Gerard]

Please can we nerf Phantom Force, it's a ridiculous move.

• It's a Damaging Evasive move that has 0 downsides.
• It can go through Protect / Detect (and lift it and any other protect-like effect from the user).
• It has 9 BP, that's tied for the higher BP of a Damaging Evasive move (that doesn't have to do with Weight).
• It's Energy Cost is way to low (Fly has the same BP, and not as many effects and costs 1 more energy to use).
• No move can touch you in the invulnerable phase of Phantom Force (bar No Guard users) unlike EVERY OTHER Damaging Evasive Move.
• It has perfect acc & arguably the best type for an Evasive Damaging Move with only 1 resist & 1 immunity (since Flying types can also be immune to Dive)
• And it's got some of the best pokemon in ASB as it's users. (And that's not even mentioning the random crap like Double BP vs Minimize targets).
• It CAN'T even be Countered / Bided (since all users in ASB bar Smeargle are Ghost Types).

It's crazy that such a powerful moves costs only 10 energy. And that you can't touch your opponent in anyway outside of combos when they use this move. It's really stupid, not other move is as spammable as this one and no other move can give you so many free turns (Go look at SICK if you want to see some examples of it).

I propose an increase to the energy cost of Phantom Force to 12 (1 more than Fly to account for all the additional effects) and maybe make some moves be able to hit during the "banished" phase (right now if you don't have Pursuit you are screwed).

 

[Psyco_Josho]

Quick note: you cannot suspend Phantom Force, as far as I'm aware. That's its only "downside".


So what does anyone think about adding new signature items for Inkay/Malamar and/or Sliggoo/Goodra? They both have pretty unique evolution methods, and that usually warrants a new sig. item.

Goodra probably doesn't need one, but Malamar would certainly appreciate one. As it stands, it only has 100/3/3/3/3/78 Stats, which are pretty middling. It's current item, the Rare Candy, gives it +1 Attack Rank and +1 STAB BAP, which is decent, but not that spectacular. It's typing is kinda cool until you realize that it has 2 weaknesses - 2x to

and 4x to

- and no resistances (although it is immune to Psycic... which it would resist anyway). It's move coverage includes

(STAB, 6 attacks),

(1 attack),

(2 attacks),

(1 attack),

(3 attacks),

(11 attacks),

(STAB, 5 attacks),

(1 attack) and Hidden Power. Not every attack (counted here: http://veekun.com/dex/moves/search?...n=&damage_class=physical&damage_class=special) is actually that great either.

Malamar does have some good points I think. Contrary + Superpower is really neat. Suction Cups has a cool niche to prevent phazing and Infiltrator is nice for blocking some subs from being made. It also has some cool Support moves - notably Taunt, Torment, Topsy-Turvy, Dual Screens and Trick Room.

So what new item can it get? Well, I don't know exactly what the item would be called, but I was thinking that something that increased its Attack and Defense (2 highest true stats of Att, Def, SpA and SpD) as well as gave it the ability Simple.



I took a lot of time writing just that for Malamar, and have no will to suggest anything for Goodra other than to have Hydration constantly active.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Take it up with Deck Knight.

That said I doubt the above will happen for reasons like buff culture among other things.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Have you guys ever thought of starting up an asb 101? Like a battling 101 equivalent for ASB, to help train people and introduce them to the format? I can say from experience that tryna get into asb can be hard for some so they might give up early, so this might be a solution you wanna look into that has the benefit of making more skilled asb players while bringin new blood into the format and such

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Have you guys ever thought of starting up an asb 101? Like a battling 101 equivalent for ASB, to help train people and introduce them to the format? I can say from experience that tryna get into asb can be hard for some so they might give up early, so this might be a solution you wanna look into that has the benefit of making more skilled asb players while bringin new blood into the format and such

Ideally the Beginner's Guide and Handbook should get the ball rolling, and the irc channel is always happy to help. The problem with an ASB101 is demand, this is the first time I've ever heard of an interest in this sort of thing in years so I can hardly imagine many people have desired it.

One thing we could do is have a master thread where people volunteer to be tutors/mentors and new players sign up there if they wish.

 

[Doubt]

As a newbie, I would be very open to the idea of an ASB 101, or a tutor/mentor thread. The Beginner's Guide and Handbook helped some, but certainly didn't stop me from making grievous errors in things such as the nature of my pokemon, which I foolishly took from the main strategy dex on the site. This sort of thread would be a benefit to all the newbies who are in my shoes, so I'll second what Audiosurfer said.