All Gens Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)

Is Wrap a legitimate strategy?

(copypasted from a derailed thread)

1. Wrap is a bug. But with a single difference; is a bug of a bug, that can multiply it's power with other bug, in other words, with AgiliWrap Dragonite, you're abussing of 3 bugs at the same time, that's a bit different as it's the unique combination of 3 bugs at the same time, so, you can even see it so glitched that is similar to use a glitchmon like Missigno, and stuff.
The hell?

2. Some people doesn't care about those bugs, but even then, AgiliWrap doesn't have "surefire counters", the unique things inmune to it are Gengar/Haunter/Gastly, and they CAN'T beat Dragonite 1vs1 unless you reserve your Sleep Clause for it, and if you fail a single hypnosis (40% of chance), you losed the game.
Dragonite has what, a 4-5HKO with Blizzard vs. a guaranteed 4HKO with Night Shade?

Paralize? Somewhat, but Agility neutralizes the drop of speed.
Thunder Wave is still a more-than-1for1 trade in moves.

Hard hitters? Only Jynx and Lapras can make it suffer, but they suffer a lot by hands of Dragonite, and they have to double-switch with him as they can't switch-in.
Lapras can't switch into Dragonite? Lapras switches into Dragonite just fine. So does Cloyster.

Explode? He survive weak explosions, and can just switch-out with the strongers. Sleep? Your unique way to "check" it, 60-75% chance, but Dragonite can just switch-out, make a partner absorb the sleep, and claim it's autowin.
Point me to where I said "sleep checks Dragonite"...?

(I mean, obviously it does, but Sleep Clause makes it irrelevant as you pointed out.)

So, yeah, if you call "bother to defend against Wrap" by using a team of 6 strong exploders as your unique way to avoid the high chance of autolose, or praying for a miss (low chance), then I don't know, good luck?
Or, y'know, use Rhydon and PP-stall it, or have Gengar and hit it with something to put it in 3HKO range as it sets up, or fake it into Hyper Beaming Cloyster, or hit it with paralysis as it sets up and then Rest or Recover-loop it?

(I've successfully walled Dragonite with Withdraw Slowbro before. That was kinda hilarious.)

Paralysis still help a bunch, but even with that, Dragonite can still K.O at least 1 or 2 Pokémon with not need of high luck, and with Wrap allowed, you can just use a second wrapper like Agiliwrap Dragonair, and most probably sweep.
Dragonite doesn't switch into much besides Snorlax or Goldon, and even those aren't completely safe.

Even Mewtwo lose at the hands of Agiliwrap Dragonite, and Mewtwo is not able to "suresweep" always as Dragonite can with minimal luck, so, Agiliwrap Dragonite is even stronger than the uber, I think that's more than enough for a ban. It's just "I push the victory button, and I have a 75%+ chance of autowin, yay", so, it's not even healthy, as it's hardly different from things like the OHKO moves (protip: Wrap is stronger).
Have you actually ever used Dragonite against a good player? I have, and it's almost as hard to use as Slowbro. The main difference is that crappy players still generally have a clue about how to beat Slowbro, while they just sit there and die to Dragonite. As you clearly do.

3. Wrap moves without Agility are far from being broken on it's own, as you can just switch between faster Pokémon and aiming for the miss, and then punish him, but they are still strong. And it's variants are far from being broken, too, as your chances to sweep are pretty shaky, and it's users are not as great, powerful, or fast, but AgiliMoltres is almost as dangerous than AgiliDragonite, but with less chance of success (still high).
Cloyster's good, being basically an RBY U-turner, but it's not very threatening on its own.

Your mention of AgiliSpin Moltres as a credible sweeper threat has just made you lose all credibility, btw. :P[/quote]

Go nuts.

EDIT: Could someone please explain why they merged a non-Simple question with non-Simple answers into this thread?
 
(copypasted from a derailed thread)



Go nuts.

EDIT: Could someone please explain why they merged a non-Simple question with non-Simple answers into this thread?
Honestly, probably because the "simple answer" is, "Yes, wrap is glitched in RBY, and its not regarded as a skilled strategy." As Nyara mentioned in a previous thread, evasion, OHKO, and multiple Pokemon asleep or frozen are all banned with clauses for the exact same reasons many tournaments choose to ban wrap moves. The REASON there is no explicit clause for it is because in the early days of RBY, simulators couldn't accurately replicate wrap mechanics, so there was no point in creating a Wrap Clause anyway.

You asked earlier in this thread why OHKO moves are banned, and the simple answer was "Because they are stupid, and they make battles stupid." The same simple answer applies to Wrap.
 
How is Wrap "glitched"? "Prevent opponent from attacking" is what it's supposed to do.
There are a couple of glitches associated with Wrap in RBY, both fixed in Stadium (confirming that they were indeed mistakes rather than intentional, similar to the "Hyper Beam doesn't force a recharge if you KO the target" and Focus Energy glitches, which were problematic in cart but fixed in Stadium). You can review Wrap's problematic mechanics here . The glitches also apply to the other wrap moves like Clamp. Obviously, triggering the glitch that effectively prevents Wrap from running out of PP is a pretty big problem.

Even taken purely at its intentional function, to prevent the opponent from attacking, that logic does not necessarily make Wrap moves appealing. After all, Evasion and OHKO moves "do what they're supposed to do," and they're banned - exactly as described previously in this thread - due to making battles anti-competitive, which is exactly the trap Wrap falls into.

And, finally, the fact that Wrap moves underwent such a drastic re-design in Gen II onward indicates the programmers themselves were unhappy with the mechanics - implying that perhaps Wrap moves never really DID "do what they're supposed to do" after all.
 
Good time restricted team?

So we are planning to play some RBY from scratch and battle at time intervals of every couple of hours. So this changes strategy a bit. And I was just looking to gather any advice from you guys on pokemon to target (easily and early) and for team strategy. Normal bans apply as well.

Basically my three main questions are, do you think it would be wiser to gather a few pokemon and raise them strong, or have an even team of 6?

Also what are some pokemon I could target that are good battle pokemon and can be obtained pretty early on?

and which of the three starter pokemon would you use?

Thanks guys
 
There are a couple of glitches associated with Wrap in RBY, both fixed in Stadium (confirming that they were indeed mistakes rather than intentional, similar to the "Hyper Beam doesn't force a recharge if you KO the target" and Focus Energy glitches, which were problematic in cart but fixed in Stadium). You can review Wrap's problematic mechanics here . The glitches also apply to the other wrap moves like Clamp. Obviously, triggering the glitch that effectively prevents Wrap from running out of PP is a pretty big problem.

Even taken purely at its intentional function, to prevent the opponent from attacking, that logic does not necessarily make Wrap moves appealing. After all, Evasion and OHKO moves "do what they're supposed to do," and they're banned - exactly as described previously in this thread - due to making battles anti-competitive, which is exactly the trap Wrap falls into.

And, finally, the fact that Wrap moves underwent such a drastic re-design in Gen II onward indicates the programmers themselves were unhappy with the mechanics - implying that perhaps Wrap moves never really DID "do what they're supposed to do" after all.
Wrap doesn't make battles anti-competitive, since there are simple counterstrategies. It makes battles differently-competitive.
 
I've said this a million times before, wrap is about as centralising as sleep and explosion.

Having to use different pokemon and strategies isn't an argument to ban it, because a wrap community who banned sleep and explosion could say the same thing about those two.

I don't see how wrap was glitched in RBY. The text refers to being unable to move, which suggests it was intended.
 
Is there a list somewhere which outlines the differences in the battle mechanics of GSC and Pokemon Stadium 2? I couldn't find anything on the net. Thanks in advance.
 
We though we have already told you that the difference is that you can see the opponents HP. Compared to RBY and Stadium 1 there aren't many differences.

In Stadium 2 you can see the HP of your opponent. You have the ability to bluff a substitue set for example by having 404 HP.
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
The main mechanical difference between GS and C is the lack of the Present glitch (where the damage formula is super-wonky and allows Blissey to handily 2HKO Umbreon with it) in the latter.

Between C and Stadium is the lack of the Belly Drum glitch (where you get +2 to Attack at less than half health) in the latter. Also clauses are actually enforceable in Stadium 2. Also Berserk Gene confusion stops being permanent and just becomes normal 1-4 turn confusion in Stadium. And sleep duration is probably different too (it is in Stadium 1), but I can't find anything on it.

That's all I can figure off the top of my head, sorry I don't have a convenient source of all the differences.
 
Damn.

Why don't people just play PS2 mechanics? It doesn't seem that different, and the clauses actually exist there so you don't have the fact that it's an illegitimate meta. I guess if no one cares it isn't a big deal.
 
Given how many complaints ths GSC metagame gets because it's so stall-oriented, have you ever considered banning Snorlax and/or enforcing an item clause? I know most items not named Leftovers suck in GSC, but it can't be denied that they're just as guilty as Snorlax.
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Pokemon classified as legendary that have the move Hidden Power. Most commonly, it specifically refers to Zapdos and Raikou using Hidden Power Ice/Water in GSC.
 
For a while, they were banned in GSC because a) Hidden Power gives legendaries crucial coverage that they couldn't get otherwise, b) as Hidden Power depends on DVs and legendaries can only be obtained once per playthrough, successfully obtaining a given Hidden Power legendary in-game is rather tiresome and in a sense "overly idealised".
 
Has anyone here used scizor to any notable success in generation 3 outside of a baton pass chain? And if so, how difficult was it to do? I would like to use him in generation 3, but you cant just slap a pokemon on a team, so I would like to know good teammates for him (other than the obvious flash fire users to bait the fire type attacks)
 
Has anyone here used scizor to any notable success in generation 3 outside of a baton pass chain? And if so, how difficult was it to do? I would like to use him in generation 3, but you cant just slap a pokemon on a team, so I would like to know good teammates for him (other than the obvious flash fire users to bait the fire type attacks)
Magneton is basically a must if you don't want to be walled to no end by Skarmory. Scizor also has issues with bulky waters so pokemon that can put pressure on them such as Salamence, Metagross and Tyranitar are good teammates. Ttar's ability to summon sand is also good news. Snorlax and Gyarados are good teammates too since they like to have Skarmory removed by magneton, and, if maggy fails to trap it, snorlax can baitexplode on it, and gyarados might be able to rack up some damage with a taunt/Hpump set I guess, though Gyarados would like to have d-e to deal with Zapdos.

Scizor simply lacks good stab attacks. Unless you take advantage of not taking s-e damage from water-types, even something like Armaldo is plain better. Also, watch out for random fire attacks, like from Snorlax, Gengar, Jirachi...

That's all I can think of at the moment.
 
The thing about Scizor is that Metagross is massively better when you don't consider Baton Pass. Stronger STAB, better movepool, more bulk, can go mixed, doesn't roll over and die to Fire moves, and can explode. Scizor can hit Celebi really hard, and has Swords Dance I guess, but really Metagross outclasses it.
 
One of Scizor's few niches aside from BP is that it can Reversal while not being affected by sand, if that's what floats your boat. Sub/SD/Reversal/HP Bug or Rock @ Salac could work with a Pursuiter like Tar or Houndoom. But then again non-STAB Reversal is surprisngly weak.
 
I see, I have never tried an endure reversal set before so I will be sure to give it a look. its a shame he got so much better in the generation after adv, everything he needed then, he got in D/P.
 

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