All Gens Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)

Every month or something, past gen metas are choosen and given a ladder. Id like to know if it'd be possible for black and white 1 OU to be chosen. Before BW 2 relased the gen 5 meta was so different I'd imagine. Id be cool to experience BW with no keldo, kyurem black, no sheer force Lando I, lo lando T at all, etc. So is it possible?
 

Sevi 7

Semi-retired
Every month or something, past gen metas are choosen and given a ladder. Id like to know if it'd be possible for black and white 1 OU to be chosen. Before BW 2 relased the gen 5 meta was so different I'd imagine. Id be cool to experience BW with no keldo, kyurem black, no sheer force Lando I, lo lando T at all, etc. So is it possible?
As of now, we don't divide generations like that. With the exception of tradebacks, a generation is always played with everything available.

That being said, my fondest times with gen 5 were in the earlier BW days when Staraptor and Deoxys-D were UU and we were missing a lot of dream world abilities and even some pokemon. I didn't really like the changes BW2 brought myself and i ended up going on a long hiatus. So i totally understand the desire to play BW1. I think it is possible to get this to be more regularly played, if you're willing to put in some leg work. I suggest you start a grassroots movement to make it more popular. Try to find others who are interested, either through the RoA chat on showdown (but make sure you follow the rules), discord or even on the forum (i suggest you use the forum for resources only). If you can get a dedicated group who is willing to play it regularly, then it can be introduced as a side format or other metagame or whatever. As a staff member on Showdown's RoA room, I'd be willing to host a tour for it if I know people want to play it and there's a resource for me to quickly add the custom rules.

This isnt me just telling you to shoot for the moon either; this is very feasible to do. For example, last year after we had small group playing RBY NU (which was totally unestablished at the time) through a discord server and after posting a forum post here, RBY NU was given a monthly tournament/monthly ladder and is now a regularly played tour every week in the RoA room. It's wonderful becuase a few years ago, this wasn't commonplace like it is today. Generally, as long as it's popular, it will be played.
 
Hello.
I'm chio who belongs to the Japanese Gen2 community.
I have been studying Nintendo Cup 2000(Poké-Cup) for almost 20 years, and I usually play at Japanese online simulator.

I tried to play at Showdown, and everyone is strong!
I didn't win much :-)
I also want to be stronger, so I would like to read a strategy research site in English language.
I tried to find a strategy research site for Gen2 other than Smogon, but I couldn't find it :-(
So, if you know it, could you please tell me?

What I'm looking for is a sentence that says:
-History of Gen2 strategy culture in English language
-Schematic environmental considerations
-Strategy of individual Pokemon(like this -> https://www.smogon.com/dex/gs/pokemon/)
-Explanation of major tactics
-Examples and explanations of strong Teams
-Records of past tournaments(It is even better if there is a usage rate of species)

For reference, in Japan, for example, the following sites exist. I'm looking for a site like the one below.
-PoKeMON Battle HiSTORiA(Written by Gold) -> http://pokemon.s20.xrea.com/
-3rd Demon Island(Written by CH) -> https://majinjima.ma-jide.com/main.html
-Battle at the Gym Leaders' Castle consideration Wiki(Written by chio) -> https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/
 

Amaranth

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
UPL Champion
Hello.
I'm chio who belongs to the Japanese Gen2 community.
I have been studying Nintendo Cup 2000(Poké-Cup) for almost 20 years, and I usually play at Japanese online simulator.

I tried to play at Showdown, and everyone is strong!
I didn't win much :-)
I also want to be stronger, so I would like to read a strategy research site in English language.
I tried to find a strategy research site for Gen2 other than Smogon, but I couldn't find it :-(
So, if you know it, could you please tell me?

What I'm looking for is a sentence that says:
-History of Gen2 strategy culture in English language
-Schematic environmental considerations
-Strategy of individual Pokemon(like this -> https://www.smogon.com/dex/gs/pokemon/)
-Explanation of major tactics
-Examples and explanations of strong Teams
-Records of past tournaments(It is even better if there is a usage rate of species)

For reference, in Japan, for example, the following sites exist. I'm looking for a site like the one below.
-PoKeMON Battle HiSTORiA(Written by Gold) -> http://pokemon.s20.xrea.com/
-3rd Demon Island(Written by CH) -> https://majinjima.ma-jide.com/main.html
-Battle at the Gym Leaders' Castle consideration Wiki(Written by chio) -> https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/
Welcome to Smogon! I don't know Japanese so I don't understand much about the sites you linked, but I'll try to help you figure out how our sites work.

The most legendary resource for GSC is the famous series of guides by Borat. This is the first one, there are links to other ones inside. They were really influential at the time, but they are very old, so there are some inaccurate things.

The Viability Rankings are an important resource. They are updated yearly so they are always accurate to what we think overall.

M Dragon wrote a great post analyzing his favorite teams over the last 10 years.

Lavos, one of the best modern GSC players, shared some of his tournament teams here and here. The first link contains more serious and solid teams, the second link has a lot of original ideas and a lot of unconventional Pokemon.

Then, you can also look at the biggest tournaments to find out how the best players are playing. There is a GSC Cup as part of the Smogon Classic, which you can find here. GSC is also included in Smogon Premier League, which is currently ongoing - you can look here for replays, here to find out when the next SPL games are happening (all tournament games are played on a separate server called Smogtours), and you can also look at older SPLs if you want (2020 replays, 2019 replays etc.) There are also threads tracking how often each Pokemon is used: see 2020 usage stats, 2019 usage stats, etc.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I will be happy to help
 
Welcome to Smogon! I don't know Japanese so I don't understand much about the sites you linked, but I'll try to help you figure out how our sites work.

The most legendary resource for GSC is the famous series of guides by Borat. This is the first one, there are links to other ones inside. They were really influential at the time, but they are very old, so there are some inaccurate things.

The Viability Rankings are an important resource. They are updated yearly so they are always accurate to what we think overall.

M Dragon wrote a great post analyzing his favorite teams over the last 10 years.

Lavos, one of the best modern GSC players, shared some of his tournament teams here and here. The first link contains more serious and solid teams, the second link has a lot of original ideas and a lot of unconventional Pokemon.

Then, you can also look at the biggest tournaments to find out how the best players are playing. There is a GSC Cup as part of the Smogon Classic, which you can find here. GSC is also included in Smogon Premier League, which is currently ongoing - you can look here for replays, here to find out when the next SPL games are happening (all tournament games are played on a separate server called Smogtours), and you can also look at older SPLs if you want (2020 replays, 2019 replays etc.) There are also threads tracking how often each Pokemon is used: see 2020 usage stats, 2019 usage stats, etc.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I will be happy to help
Mr./Ms. Amaranth.

Thank you for telling me a lot!
There are exactly what I was looking for.
Most of the pages couldn't be found on my own, which is very helpful.

I'm really thankful to you!
 
I posted this on a different forum and was referred to this thread. The following is copy-pasted from said forum
"Q: From Gen 3 to Gen 4, which 'mons were most affected in tier-lists (up or down 2 or more tiers?)?
This question needs a bit of framing to be fair. My goal right now is to set up a simulated battle (in written form, not full team on full team) that would demonstrate in myriad ways how the physical/special split changed the way battles happened. It will be a side-by-side gen 3 and gen 4, with possible changes in movesets/Stat Spreads/items. However, that is the end goal. What I need is a starting point for which mons changed dramatically from gen 3 to gen 4. This question should give me an idea of good mons to look at for dramatic side by side comparisons across gens."

The question is deliberately narrowed in scope due to the rules of the other forum, but here I would like to broaden that scope. I need 6 mons total: 2 whose dynamics were fundamentally unchanged (have my eyes on Metagross as one of those), 2 who became more viable, and 2 that became less viable. I now plan on making it a 1v1 written with 3 mons each, written out in play by play with possible reference pictures. All of these are tentative, I am more than happy to change many aspects of it to better achieve the goal of explaining the split and other improvements made in gen 4.
I also want to be clear that this is something for a college class and I will reference this thread, especially if the replies help me greatly
 

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day
is a Community Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion
What I'm looking for is a sentence that says:
-History of Gen2 strategy culture in English language
Smogon has been pretty much the main home of western competitive singles since 2004. But if you are interested in history before that, the most influential site was the Azure Heights forum which (unlike most of the sites from back then) is still around! So you can look back on a lot of the strategy/policy discussions from the Gen 2 era. And find some tournament results there too. Though it would be a lot of work to dig through it all.
 
Smogon has been pretty much the main home of western competitive singles since 2004. But if you are interested in history before that, the most influential site was the Azure Heights forum which (unlike most of the sites from back then) is still around! So you can look back on a lot of the strategy/policy discussions from the Gen 2 era. And find some tournament results there too. Though it would be a lot of work to dig through it all.
Mr./Ms. Hipmonlee.

Thank you very much!
Certainly, I've confirmed that a Gen2 article exists.
I'm interested so I'll read it :-)
 
Greetings, recently been thinking why hasn't Hydreigon been banned from BW OU since it literally holds the title of completely uncounterable (at least in BW OU), which makes me realize it's one of very few uncounterable Pokemon that doesn't get banned to Ubers.

My argument is that since Hydreigon has no counters, because by definition, a counter is a Pokemon that can switch into it and then beat it, additonally every Pokemon in the game gets 2HKO'd on switch in, therefore I think Hydreigon should be suspected.
 
Last edited:
Greetings, recently been thinking why hasn't Hydreigon been banned from BW OU since it literally holds the title of completely uncounterable (at least in BW OU), which makes me realize it's one of very few uncounterable Pokemon that doesn't get banned to Ubers.

My argument is that since Hydreigon has no counters, because by definition, a counter is a Pokemon that can switch into it and then beat it, additonally every Pokemon in the game gets 2HKO'd on switch in, therefore I think Hydreigon should be suspected.
Because even if Hydreigon have a insanely strong type + coverage, the hydra Pokemon have a LOT of flaws.
For example, Hydreigon is stupid slow for a broken Pokemon. Ths means h is easily revange killed so it can only be used in hit-and-run strategies, with is a bit bad since its weak to SR + sand damage.
Another problem is that BW OU is adapted to the all mighty Dragons that roams in it, so answers like SpDef Ttar, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Excadrill, Toxic Tentacruel, Cresselia and Chansey (for sun), Ferrothorn, Heatran... The list goes on Hydreigon can't use a set that covers everything...

Also, you have not played a lot of BW OU if you want to ban Hydreigon but is happy with Latios in the tier....
 
Because even if Hydreigon have a insanely strong type + coverage, the hydra Pokemon have a LOT of flaws.
For example, Hydreigon is stupid slow for a broken Pokemon. Ths means h is easily revange killed so it can only be used in hit-and-run strategies, with is a bit bad since its weak to SR + sand damage.
Another problem is that BW OU is adapted to the all mighty Dragons that roams in it, so answers like SpDef Ttar, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Excadrill, Toxic Tentacruel, Cresselia and Chansey (for sun), Ferrothorn, Heatran... The list goes on Hydreigon can't use a set that covers everything...

Also, you have not played a lot of BW OU if you want to ban Hydreigon but is happy with Latios in the tier....
Well you have a point on the speed though 98 Speed stat is nowhere near relevant, nevertheless with the amount of boosting moves in Ubers it would atleast have a decent niche.

And I never mentioned Latios in my argument, not like im happy with Latios being in OU but it honestly doesnt belong in Ubers, theres no reason to pick Latios over Latias in Ubers since it has very good natural bulk and since its accesible to Soul Dew its offensive capability increases a whole lot, meanwhile Latios is stronger than Latias but way frailer in comparison, Latios also lacks of good coverage and has relevant counters such as Tyranitar, Steel type pokemon such as Jirachi and Excadrill (Which Hydreigon can actually counter again), Latios is also countered by revenge killers and priority. The closest things to a counter unto Hydreigon are Keldeo and Brelloom, which Latios is "supposed" to counter right? Well, not really, while being a psychic type psyshock in Latios, is not even mentioned once in any of its relevant sets.

Latios is only able to kill Keldeo with Specs Draco Meteor: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 373-441 (115.1 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Nevertheless, Keldeo usually packs HP Ice and HP Ghost: 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 140-166 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO.
 
Not sure where this goes, but I have been using Pyukumuku since the start of SM and I am convinced my Block, Spite, Recover, Rest set was popularized enough to be noticed and cemented within the smogon library. That being said, I would love credit for suggesting a revised set of Recycle replacing Spite and Leppa Berry replacing Rocky Helmet.

Instead of forcing just one wall to suicide, it could potentially trap and stall multiple.

Max-out Sp.def and HP and it pp stalls Sp.Attackers that it previously couldn't, like Blacephalon, Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, and Giga Drain Volcarona. The most notable downfall is the wariness of Knock Off you now have to avoid, especially from Gliscor, which would out-stall pyuku.

I will write a full description and provide replays.


Pyukumuku (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Recycle
- Rest
- Recover
 
Last edited:
in gsc, sandstorm does more damage, but this cannot be exploited due to many factors

I am new (Spanish) in the forum but I always wanted to know if tactics based on sandstorm are viable

always believed that sandstorm should be used aggressively, but there is so much restalker mon in ou, that it is better to use stat up moves

also what movements should I resign to include it? , must I bring at least 2 mons with sandstorm? , It is effective that some non-steel / earth / rock mon uses it to surprise, it occurs to me to use it with substitutes or recover perhaps :P
 

Oglemi

Borf
is a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
in gsc, sandstorm does more damage, but this cannot be exploited due to many factors

I am new (Spanish) in the forum but I always wanted to know if tactics based on sandstorm are viable

always believed that sandstorm should be used aggressively, but there is so much restalker mon in ou, that it is better to use stat up moves

also what movements should I resign to include it? , must I bring at least 2 mons with sandstorm? , It is effective that some non-steel / earth / rock mon uses it to surprise, it occurs to me to use it with substitutes or recover perhaps :P
You can find a bit of discussion on it here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/are-weather-teams-viable.3648809/#post-8472454

MDragon has a team here with a log https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-teams-through-the-ages.3652940/
 

Lutra

Spreadsheeter by day, Random Ladderer by night.
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Well we have clauses for freeze, sleep etc. - why not a clause preventing abuse of the bug? Something like this.
A large proportion of players prefer simpler bans. Blizzard, Hypnosis, Ice Beam, Lovely Kiss, Sing and Sleep Powder are so commonly used that if either Freeze or Sleep inducing moves were banned, it would be too much of a change. The compromise was that Dig and Fly could be banned since they didn’t see much usage. Just as you disagree now, other players would disagree if you implemented the clause.
 
A large proportion of players prefer simpler bans. Blizzard, Hypnosis, Ice Beam, Lovely Kiss, Sing and Sleep Powder are so commonly used that if either Freeze or Sleep inducing moves were banned, it would be too much of a change. The compromise was that Dig and Fly could be banned since they didn’t see much usage. Just as you disagree now, other players would disagree if you implemented the clause.
Hi Lutra, how do you know that the RBY community doesn't want dig/fly unbanned? I posted a poll and it was deleted because "You didn’t ask for approval to post this". It looks like Smogon isn't very democratic at all. If you want to know what the RBY community thinks why not allow discussion?
 

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
Hi Lutra, how do you know that the RBY community doesn't want dig/fly unbanned? I posted a poll and it was deleted because "You didn’t ask for approval to post this". It looks like Smogon isn't very democratic at all. If you want to know what the RBY community thinks why not allow discussion?
It was discussed 6 years ago. Additionally, many discussions have been held since in various circles. It was very democratic, and any look at the various threads Joim made when developing RBY on PS will show you that.
 

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
A lot can happen in 6 years, I think we're due a new discussion considering the recent unbanning of Psywave.
As I said, many discussions in many circles have happened since. I'm not saying you shouldn't - by all means, ask staff to make a thread, I support any discussion - I'm trying to explain to you that this discussion isn't uncommon at all.

Funny you mention Psywave, as on Smogon, it was never actually banned. I'm speaking as someone who had a hand in patching the move in the first place. You could always use it on the Showdown ladder. It was only ever officially banned on Pokemon Perfect, and it was then brought unofficially into tournaments. I have some sources for this if you need them. It makes the PR post look a bit odd for sure...

Anyway, that's largely semantics. Psywave's problem was the fact it was literally game breaking. You would end up forcing a tie due to the desync. This should, in no way, shape or form, be equated with Dig/Fly. There is no precedent for patching these moves, bar Acid Rain, and your post should be about establishing it.
 
This should, in no way, shape or form, be equated with Dig/Fly. There is no precedent for patching these moves, bar Acid Rain, and your post should be about establishing it.
I wasn't equating dig/fly with psywave. I was trying to show that bans can be overturned, and policy can change in 6 years. But thanks for your advice, I'll avoid making comparisons :blobthumbsup:
 

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
I wasn't equating dig/fly with psywave. I was trying to show that bans can be overturned, and policy can change in 6 years. But thanks for your advice, I'll avoid making comparisons :blobthumbsup:
Again, I know that bans can be overturned and a lot changes in 6 years, it goes without saying. I'm trying to help you here.

What you need to focus on are the competitive merits to bringing the moves back, as well as what stipulations should be attached. A simple poll isn't really enough, your post would need to go over why it should be discussed at all. These moves are inherently broken due to that glitch we all know and love, after all. Semi-Invulnerability Clause, patching, or even just outright allowing them are all possibilities your OP should entertain. It's not as cut-and-dry as "alright it's been 6 years let's discuss". I don't mean to patronise you, it's just...much more complex than it initially seems.
 
Again, I know that bans can be overturned and a lot changes in 6 years, it goes without saying. I'm trying to help you here.
I know, I value your input :)

What you need to focus on are the competitive merits to bringing the moves back, as well as what stipulations should be attached.
Beelzemon 2003 covers the merits of using Dig/Fly in his thread here. To paraphrase, the moves make a few UU pokemon more viable and can also be used to avoid damage from a predicted explosion.

A simple poll isn't really enough, your post would need to go over why it should be discussed at all.
You can probably tell I want dig/fly to be unbanned. I felt it would be unfair to create a poll telling people what I thought they should vote for, so I thought I'd ask the question and let people reach their own conclusion.

These moves are inherently broken due to that glitch we all know and love, after all. Semi-Invulnerability Clause, patching, or even just outright allowing them are all possibilities your OP should entertain.
If it was my decision to make I'd unban the moves, introduce a clause preventing moves other than dig/fly from being used when the glitch occurs, and in the rare case that the glitch occurs and a pokemon doesn't have enough PP patch the move to prevent it failing.

But I'm not a clever pokemon expert like you guys, I know I don't have the answers. If I'm wrong, or my suggestions aren't practical, I'll accept that. But I don't think it's fair to dismiss opinions because they challenge the consensus, or to silence discussion.
 
Question for competitive-ish gen 5: Which rotom form is most helpful for sandstorm triples, or should I not use it at all? I was thinking that wash would be good for both coverage and when weather gets overwritten, mostly by hail or drought. I’ve heard that Heat was also good, and I suppose mow or even fridge could help offensively. Current team consists of definite Excadrill and Garchomp sweepers and Tyranitar setter, with pending support/ walls of Forretress and Gliscor.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top