BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

The best set for Bannette is by far Tough Claws Choice Band, but dazzlesmash is great for getting that surprise setup on the switch (this is merely because Shell Smash is pretty much a broken move). Shell Smash is also great for Improofing Triage sets that run Fighting-types to hit Steels, such as Owing/Drain Punch or Owing/Secret Sword Megaray. The niche it has over Marowak-A is the much greater speed, which lets it naturally outspeed a lot of walls. Bannette also has a Bannettite set which, though it has no surprise value, gives you the option of running prankster copycat or prankster spore and then an ability like Simple Smash before hand. Pretty bad though and really only worth it for the Gimmick value.

I would actually rank Bannette over Marowak-A though still in D. Marowak-A also is burdened by the fact that V-Create drops its speed so much that base 85 walls like Zyg-C and Dialga and Giratina outspeed it after a V-Create, which forces it out. Even though it has the ability to switch moves, it really wants to be clicking VC, and after the VC speed drop the move switching doesn't really matter too much because everything outspeeds it anyway. That kind of makes it junk.

@om: The reason why Bannette would be used over Hoopa-U is that its STAB is a lot harder to resist. We have a lot more Dark resists than Ghost resists right now, and the "good" ghost resists we have are crippled severely by coverage move (Ttar can't eat Sunsteel/Close Combat, Yveltal hates Ice Hammer (except the stupid Fur Coat set), Arceus hates Close Combat, Audino is mauled by Sunsteel. There's Alolan Muk, but that mon is pretty much dead weight most of the time. On the other hand, Hoopa-U is pretty much forced to instant 2hKO its target on the switchin or ohko it on the 1v1, otherwise it must switch out after attacking once or eat a u-turn that will take over 70% of its health.
 

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
The best set for Bannette is by far Tough Claws Choice Band, but dazzlesmash is great for getting that surprise setup on the switch (this is merely because Shell Smash is pretty much a broken move). Shell Smash is also great for Improofing Triage sets that run Fighting-types to hit Steels, such as Owing/Drain Punch or Owing/Secret Sword Megaray. The niche it has over Marowak-A is the much greater speed, which lets it naturally outspeed a lot of walls. Bannette also has a Bannettite set which, though it has no surprise value, gives you the option of running prankster copycat or prankster spore and then an ability like Simple Smash before hand. Pretty bad though and really only worth it for the Gimmick value.

I would actually rank Bannette over Marowak-A though still in D. Marowak-A also is burdened by the fact that V-Create drops its speed so much that base 85 walls like Zyg-C and Dialga and Giratina outspeed it after a V-Create, which forces it out. Even though it has the ability to switch moves, it really wants to be clicking VC, and after the VC speed drop the move switching doesn't really matter too much because everything outspeeds it anyway. That kind of makes it junk.

@om: The reason why Bannette would be used over Hoopa-U is that its STAB is a lot harder to resist. We have a lot more Dark resists than Ghost resists right now, and the "good" ghost resists we have are crippled severely by coverage move (Ttar can't eat Sunsteel/Close Combat, Yveltal hates Ice Hammer (except the stupid Fur Coat set), Arceus hates Close Combat, Audino is mauled by Sunsteel. There's Alolan Muk, but that mon is pretty much dead weight most of the time. On the other hand, Hoopa-U is pretty much forced to instant 2hKO its target on the switchin or ohko it on the 1v1, otherwise it must switch out after attacking once or eat a u-turn that will take over 70% of its health.
I’m confused on the resists part. Ghost and Dark are both resisted by Dark, and Dark is further only resisted by Fighting and Fairy types. In this case Pheromosa and Heracross are rare, and MMX would take Neutral Damage if it switched into Hoopa-U (which it wouldn’t likely ever do).

Magearna, Xerneas, Diancie-Mega, and Audino-Mega are the only Fairy types and Audino-Mega being part Normal actually is harder for Banette-Mega to KO bc Spectral does 0 Damage while Hyperspace is only resisted. Both would also pack Sunsteel anyways so that move applies for both vs Audino-Mega, and it would likely only switch into either of them after it scouted which move its Choice locked into regardless.

Diancie-Mega and Lovely Kiss Xerneas scares out Banette-Mega regardless, and Diancie-Mega can outspeed Shadow Sneak with -ate Speed if Banette tries to hit it first with Shadow Sneak.

Magearna seems fairly uncommon, but this is a case where Banette performs better since it isn’t weak to Sunsteel, letting Spectral Thief serve as the better move.

It’s a lot harder to switch into Dark Vs Ghost bc there are no Immunities. Hoopa-U can scare out the majority of slower U-Turn users forcing them to manually switch rather than get to use U-Turn.

Lastly, since its using Hustle over Tough Claws, it boosts all of its moves more, which makes it hit harder than Banette on all mutually Neutral or Super Effective hits.
My point is that Hoopa would run the same moves in Close Combat, Ice Hammer, and Sunsteel Strike, with the only difference being Hyperspace vs Spectral.

As for number of Ghost Immunities, we have Arceus, Slaking, Regigigas, and Non-Imposter Chansey.

I agree that Fairy types can add up with more resists if added to Fighting types, but Heracross, and Pheromosa are pretty rare, as Beedrill-Mega has taken their place as a Bug-Type, making it 4 (normals) vs 4 (fairies) on both type resists.
—————
I completely agree on the Mega Stone Base form Simple Smash Set, as I created the variants of that.

Never saw Mega Dazzle Smash, but I guess it could work. Technically using a Ghost Memory can enable it to be self-Improof as well- Shell Smash, Multi Attack, Close Combat, filler since Life Orb on a frail mon is out of the question, and White herb seems less relevant due to Dazzling.
————
Since you mentioned the gimmick of Prankster Mega Stone Banette, I thought of the Prankster Marowak-A Set with Shadow Force, V-Create, Copy Cat, Sunsteel/Close Combat, which works great in the right team, as it can Stall Passive Damage like Toxic Spikes, Force switches to rack up Stealth Rocks, Stall PP, and break past Protect. The other key factor is how it lowers the speed via V-Create, which makes the attack turn of Shadow Force (2nd turn) slower making you invulnerable longer.

Lastly, Marowak due to the -Def drops makes it so much easier to Imposterproof, one due to lacking Thick Club, and 2 due to Imposter being Pursuit bait from a Tough Claws Pursuit Tyranitar-Mega teammate. Also, Scarf Imposter is beaten by Marowak bc it will lose its invulnerability first and let your Marowak KO.

It’s much more Improof that way.

In regards to losing -Speed on any other Marowak Set, it could just use another Fire Attack like Sacred Fire, which also allows it to check Shedinja thanks to bypassing Sturdy and immunity to Endeavor.
 
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guess what

Ferrothorn
B- > C
this mon is really hard to justify nowadays. ph gigas has dropped off, spore in general is less common and ph xern is increasingly running sets like spikes or taunt that ferro is not equipped to take on. even diancie very commonly runs stuff like specs, groundium, and hazards, which ferro is quite poor against. just feels like it doesn't really offer much defensively anymore while still retaining all of its old flaws. also being a steel that doesnt resist flying is pretty bad with ray being as popular as it is

Chansey
B+ > B/B-
i don't think chansey is in a great spot atm. it looks really good on paper, but in practice it just gives up so much momentum bc of how much it has to recover, it gets worn down so easily, and it doesnt have the luxury to just sit in front of things because it gets crippled by knock off or any status condition and u can just get hazards on it for free. it's got pretty bad 4mss too; you really want it to be able to beat triage ray, threaten imposter, not give free switchins and run metal burst to force 50/50s, but it just can't do all of that. mmy is less popular than ever, xern/diancie are increasingly running hazards, and specs ray blows through it with just a tiny bit of chip. i always find that this mon underperforms and i struggle to fit it onto teams

Mega Mewtwo Y
S > A+
losing contrary was a bigger blow to mmy's viability than i thought it would be. the rise in shed usage makes the sf set a lot worse, and the metagame has largely moved away from the kinds of defensive cores that set was so good at punishing when it really took off. besides sf, mmy's other viable sets are limited; mono-psychic is such an appalling offensive typing that despite its insane stats mmy really struggles. a lot of its good sets are just done better by other mons with better typings

Mega Mewtwo X
A+ > S
the ol' switcheroo. ph mmx is a really silly dude that just feels like it fits so well onto any kind of team and can easily adapt to fill so many different roles. as well, mmx's other sets feel better than ever now with mmy becoming less popular. agree with everything skylake said on this mon

Registeel
A+ > A-
definitely not as bad as sl42 is saying, but this being in a+ still is pretty wack. it's passive and loses a ton of momentum to a lot of common stuff, but i think its still really solid in the current ray-dominated meta by being basically the fattest flying resist around. bulky steels in general feel kinda mid atm

Mega Sceptile
B- > C
with contrary gone sceptile is way worse, but i think sl42 is underrating it. sceptile's speed, powerful stabs, and its ability to hit imposter real hard still make it quite tricky for some teams to deal with, especially offense teams. flash fire steels and safety goggles are both far less popular nowadays, which is great for sceptile as well. its best set by far i think is dazzling, but its a surprisingly versatile mon.

Xurkitree
C > D
xurk just doesn't do a whole lot. it's slow, frail, and pretty thoroughly outclassed by other wallbreakers. every fat team has really bulky electric resists without trying (including imposter) that can switch into boomburst and gain momentum and it sucks vs offense and doesn't offer any defensive presence. i don't really know why i'd want to run this

Zygarde-Complete
A > A+
idk what this is doing down here. zyg is probably the most versatile defensive mon in the game. stupid bulk lets it take on so much stuff for free and it puts in work in every matchup. this can run like 10 different sets and theyre all great, fits onto such a range of different teams, and has powerful cheese potential with final gambit and metal burst. being able to trap imposter while also slow pivoting with volt switch is extremely powerful as well

Ash Greninja
D > C
really, it's not that bad. this mon gets a bad reputation due to its popularity on the low ladder, but i think it's legitimately decent. its best sets by far are the specs water spout sets, with primordial sea, tinted lens (on rain), or maybe adapt (haven't tried this). its like offensive ogre/palk but its fast and hits imposter real hard. slow pivot drizzle mon + tinted specs ash gren is just free wins vs a lot of fat teams and can put in work in a range of matchups just by virtue of its great speed. mmy becoming less popular is great for gren because it makes its speed tier a lot better

Mega Audino
B+ > B-
this mon isn't awful, but whenever i run it i just feel like theres a ton of matchups where it doesn't do a lot. its resists often aren't relevant and its just not bulky enough to take on a lot of common stuff. the ph/bounce sets coming in on tina/zyg and slow uturning for free is cool, but i think the meta is moving away from the kinds of squads where that really matters. difficult to fit this mon on teams

Mega Metagross
D > C/B-
solg and dusk mane being B+ while this is down in d rank is a travesty. this has similar physical bulk to solg/dm, somewhat worse spdef, but similar attack and a significantly better speed tier. outpacing xern, yvel, kart, blaziken, gigas/slaking, tying diancie and sometimes outspeeding ray (if ur +speed and they arent) is a really big deal and makes it better in a lot of offense matchups. it's a very viable alternative to solg/dm that is able to force more switches than them and check some mons that theyd struggle against. it also has some really nice scarf sets that can reliably switch into dudes like ray and mmy and force them out, something very few mons can boast

Shedinja
A > A+
people are getting better and better at building shed teams and continue to find new ways to allow it to get around its supposed counterplay. it's a difficult mon to rank; shed is swingy and matchup dependent and it requires a lot of support, but when it does its thing you just win so easily. no other pokemon has shedinja's capacity to just win games at team preview or with a single good lure. its incredible performance thus far in this year's ompl has reinvigorated calls to ban it, and despite its weaknesses i think it would be disingenuous to put shed lower than a+. in fact, i think there's a strong argument for moving it to s rank, but i don't want to push it

Mega Rayquaza
S > S+ if that's a thing



also agreeing with:
Aegislash
B > B-
Magearna
B- > B+
Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
A- > B+ (this could go even lower i think)
Mega Diancie
A+ > A
Pheromosa
C > D

i think the D rank really needs to be re-evaluated. we gotta figure out what this rank is for because there's some mons down here that ive seen only a small handful of times all generation, and a ton of legitimately viable mons that are unranked. i think ideally d rank is a place for mons that are viable but highly niche; either because they're largely outclassed by a mon ranked higher, because the role they serve is one that only a small number of teams want, or because they only really function in specific matchups. basically, i'm advocating to expand the d rank by adding a bunch of niche unranked mons to it

some mons that i'd add to d rank:

deo-s
mega scizor
mega luc
tina-o
pex
mega manec
carbink
mega zam
empoleon
gyarados @ gyaradosite
lugia
nihilego
mega banette
mega aggron
probopass
blacephalon
mega gardevoir
 

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
guess what

Ferrothorn
B- > C
this mon is really hard to justify nowadays. ph gigas has dropped off, spore in general is less common and ph xern is increasingly running sets like spikes or taunt that ferro is not equipped to take on. even diancie very commonly runs stuff like specs, groundium, and hazards, which ferro is quite poor against. just feels like it doesn't really offer much defensively anymore while still retaining all of its old flaws. also being a steel that doesnt resist flying is pretty bad with ray being as popular as it is

Chansey
B+ > B/B-
i don't think chansey is in a great spot atm. it looks really good on paper, but in practice it just gives up so much momentum bc of how much it has to recover, it gets worn down so easily, and it doesnt have the luxury to just sit in front of things because it gets crippled by knock off or any status condition and u can just get hazards on it for free. it's got pretty bad 4mss too; you really want it to be able to beat triage ray, threaten imposter, not give free switchins and run metal burst to force 50/50s, but it just can't do all of that. mmy is less popular than ever, xern/diancie are increasingly running hazards, and specs ray blows through it with just a tiny bit of chip. i always find that this mon underperforms and i struggle to fit it onto teams

Mega Mewtwo Y
S > A+
losing contrary was a bigger blow to mmy's viability than i thought it would be. the rise in shed usage makes the sf set a lot worse, and the metagame has largely moved away from the kinds of defensive cores that set was so good at punishing when it really took off. besides sf, mmy's other viable sets are limited; mono-psychic is such an appalling offensive typing that despite its insane stats mmy really struggles. a lot of its good sets are just done better by other mons with better typings

Mega Mewtwo X
A+ > S
the ol' switcheroo. ph mmx is a really silly dude that just feels like it fits so well onto any kind of team and can easily adapt to fill so many different roles. as well, mmx's other sets feel better than ever now with mmy becoming less popular. agree with everything skylake said on this mon

Registeel
A+ > A-
definitely not as bad as sl42 is saying, but this being in a+ still is pretty wack. it's passive and loses a ton of momentum to a lot of common stuff, but i think its still really solid in the current ray-dominated meta by being basically the fattest flying resist around. bulky steels in general feel kinda mid atm

Mega Sceptile
B- > C
with contrary gone sceptile is way worse, but i think sl42 is underrating it. sceptile's speed, powerful stabs, and its ability to hit imposter real hard still make it quite tricky for some teams to deal with, especially offense teams. flash fire steels and safety goggles are both far less popular nowadays, which is great for sceptile as well. its best set by far i think is dazzling, but its a surprisingly versatile mon.

Xurkitree
C > D
xurk just doesn't do a whole lot. it's slow, frail, and pretty thoroughly outclassed by other wallbreakers. every fat team has really bulky electric resists without trying (including imposter) that can switch into boomburst and gain momentum and it sucks vs offense and doesn't offer any defensive presence. i don't really know why i'd want to run this

Zygarde-Complete
A > A+
idk what this is doing down here. zyg is probably the most versatile defensive mon in the game. stupid bulk lets it take on so much stuff for free and it puts in work in every matchup. this can run like 10 different sets and theyre all great, fits onto such a range of different teams, and has powerful cheese potential with final gambit and metal burst. being able to trap imposter while also slow pivoting with volt switch is extremely powerful as well

Ash Greninja
D > C
really, it's not that bad. this mon gets a bad reputation due to its popularity on the low ladder, but i think it's legitimately decent. its best sets by far are the specs water spout sets, with primordial sea, tinted lens (on rain), or maybe adapt (haven't tried this). its like offensive ogre/palk but its fast and hits imposter real hard. slow pivot drizzle mon + tinted specs ash gren is just free wins vs a lot of fat teams and can put in work in a range of matchups just by virtue of its great speed. mmy becoming less popular is great for gren because it makes its speed tier a lot better

Mega Audino
B+ > B-
this mon isn't awful, but whenever i run it i just feel like theres a ton of matchups where it doesn't do a lot. its resists often aren't relevant and its just not bulky enough to take on a lot of common stuff. the ph/bounce sets coming in on tina/zyg and slow uturning for free is cool, but i think the meta is moving away from the kinds of squads where that really matters. difficult to fit this mon on teams

Mega Metagross
D > C/B-
solg and dusk mane being B+ while this is down in d rank is a travesty. this has similar physical bulk to solg/dm, somewhat worse spdef, but similar attack and a significantly better speed tier. outpacing xern, yvel, kart, blaziken, gigas/slaking, tying diancie and sometimes outspeeding ray (if ur +speed and they arent) is a really big deal and makes it better in a lot of offense matchups. it's a very viable alternative to solg/dm that is able to force more switches than them and check some mons that theyd struggle against. it also has some really nice scarf sets that can reliably switch into dudes like ray and mmy and force them out, something very few mons can boast

Shedinja
A > A+
people are getting better and better at building shed teams and continue to find new ways to allow it to get around its supposed counterplay. it's a difficult mon to rank; shed is swingy and matchup dependent and it requires a lot of support, but when it does its thing you just win so easily. no other pokemon has shedinja's capacity to just win games at team preview or with a single good lure. its incredible performance thus far in this year's ompl has reinvigorated calls to ban it, and despite its weaknesses i think it would be disingenuous to put shed lower than a+. in fact, i think there's a strong argument for moving it to s rank, but i don't want to push it

Mega Rayquaza
S > S+ if that's a thing



also agreeing with:
Aegislash
B > B-
Magearna
B- > B+
Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
A- > B+ (this could go even lower i think)
Mega Diancie
A+ > A
Pheromosa
C > D

i think the D rank really needs to be re-evaluated. we gotta figure out what this rank is for because there's some mons down here that ive seen only a small handful of times all generation, and a ton of legitimately viable mons that are unranked. i think ideally d rank is a place for mons that are viable but highly niche; either because they're largely outclassed by a mon ranked higher, because the role they serve is one that only a small number of teams want, or because they only really function in specific matchups. basically, i'm advocating to expand the d rank by adding a bunch of niche unranked mons to it

some mons that i'd add to d rank:

deo-s
mega scizor
mega luc
tina-o
pex
mega manec
carbink
mega zam
empoleon
gyarados @ gyaradosite
lugia
nihilego
mega banette
mega aggron
probopass
blacephalon
mega gardevoir
I almost completely agree and quite frankly think we should add an S+, S-, C+, C-, D+, D+.

S+: I would probably set Chansey Imposter at S+.

Pikachu and Blissey can be a little lower due to being Light Ball, or Scarf reliant, while Chansey can use Eviolite, Scarf, or even Lucky Punch to go for Bulk, Speed or Offense.

For me, while Scarf Blissey is technically better than Scarf Chansey (10 more HP), especially for stuff like taking Final Gambit, I think since it’s more one-dimensional and cannot bluff other items, plus it’s singular advantage is 10 HP (and more Speed / SpD if it was prevented from using Imposter), then by default it needs to be lower and should be S.

Now, Pikachu is always risking a Speed tie so to me since Paralysis support is almost expected it should be ranked lower, maybe S- (although it’s so rare and fragile I don’t know if it should be given a much, much lower rank, like it’s very niche which is what we typically place D as),.

I would say if you are keeping Imposter together, then I would make the group S+, bc Imposter is on nearly every team... for a reason, it is literally able to adapt to most situations, and packing 2 Imposters, unlike any other pairing of the same set, leads to not duplicating your moves, bc your set becomes the foe. S+.

S: For Rayquaza, I know it’s being discussed for Suspect, but for now, I feel S is enough for it. I feel that Imposter is more universal and easier to Spam, as for who is better, since Imposter alone is seen as a universal check to basically all of Rayquaza-Mega‘s sets, that goes to show Imposter can Check nearly anything, and at the least, Rayquaza is not “above” or even “equal to” its own universal check.

S-: I feel MMX since I think it’s a bit weaker than Rayquaza when it comes to limitations: not being as able to Mix sweep, and lacking the ability to break Giratina, however it should only be slightly lower bc it breaks most Steels and has such high offenses that a coverage move feels like its automatically getting a mini-STAB thru base stats alone.

Regardless of S, I think there are so many potential D Pokémon that it becomes essential that we break down what is the “top” niche, and bottom niche. Like for example, we can all agree Deoxys-A has a much bigger niche than Venusaur-Mega. Let’s prove that with a D+, and D- specific rank.

For example:

D+ Deoxys-A, Heracross-Mega (Triage)

D: Marowak-Alolan, Stakataka

D-: Venusaur-Mega, Regirock

Bc everything else is ranked, and bc it makes it more realistic for something in D+ to move up, it makes sense for us to have a C-, and C+. Further, it also helps us find that something in C+ would be able to more justifiably move up to B-. Plus if I am suggesting add S+, S-, D+, D-, I think it only makes sense to add C+, C-. For example, Beedrill-Mega should be C+, while Steelix-Mega should be C-, while Hoopa-U could be a solid C.
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
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Moderator
Viability Rankings Update: July 25th, 2019

After some lengthy discussion in the thread alongside several metagame shifts due to the recent bans that affected the metagame as a whole, the BHC staff have decided to update the Viability Rankings to better reflect the current metagame. Here are the results (its a big one so beware lol).

Voting Slate

Results:

Rises:
  • A+ ->S
  • A+ -> S <- Canceled post Community Feedback
  • A -> A+
  • A -> A+
  • B -> A-
  • B- -> B+
  • B- -> B <- Canceled post Community Feedback
  • D -> C
  • D -> C
  • D -> C
  • D -> C
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D

Drops:
  • S -> A+
  • A+ -> A <- changed to A- post Community Feedback
  • A+ -> A
  • A+ -> A
  • A- -> B+
  • A- -> B+
  • A- -> B+
  • B+ -> B-
  • B+ -> B
  • B -> B-
  • B -> B-
  • B- -> C
  • B- -> D
  • C -> D
  • C -> D


Most of these changes have been discussed in the thread so we do not feel the need to discuss why the changes occurred in order to avoid the possibility of being redundant. Also we these changes, A- has been been left void with only one Pokemon occupying its spot. While this may seem a bit unorthodox, we felt that these changes reflect the metagame the most and is the cost when enacting this update. As always, we encourage more discussion and always welcome constructive feedback to the resources provided in the thread, expect more changes soon!

Tagging E4 Flint
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
Viability Rankings Update: July 25th, 2019

After some lengthy discussion in the thread alongside several metagame shifts due to the recent bans that affected the metagame as a whole, the BHC staff have decided to update the Viability Rankings to better reflect the current metagame. Here are the results (its a big one so beware lol).

Voting Slate

Results:

Rises:
  • A+ ->S
  • A+ -> S
  • A -> A+
  • A -> A+
  • B -> A-
  • B- -> B+
  • B- -> B
  • D -> C
  • D -> C
  • D -> C
  • D -> C
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D
  • UR -> D

Drops:
  • S -> A+
  • A+ -> A
  • A+ -> A
  • A+ -> A
  • A- -> B+
  • A- -> B+
  • A- -> B+
  • B+ -> B-
  • B+ -> B
  • B -> B-
  • B -> B-
  • B- -> C
  • B- -> D
  • C -> D
  • C -> D


Most of these changes have been discussed in the thread so we do not feel the need to discuss why the changes occurred in order to avoid the possibility of being redundant. Also we these changes, A- has been been left void with only one Pokemon occupying its spot. While this may seem a bit unorthodox, we felt that these changes reflect the metagame the most and is the cost when enacting this update. As always, we encourage more discussion and always welcome constructive feedback to the resources provided in the thread, expect more changes soon!

Tagging E4 Flint
I think a Pokémon everyone forgot about, including myself, was Beedrill-Mega.

With the drop in Sceptile-Mega, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and the rise in Deoxys-A, Beedrill’s relatively unique Speed Tier suddenly becomes less relevant.

I think if Deoxys-A continues to rise, we may see a resurgence of Pheromosa taking the reins as the Bug pivot of choice.

Also, Greninja-Ash’s rise to C might help both of them stay relevant, but with Pheromosa being able to handle new rises like Empoleon, Lucario-Mega, Aggron, and Tyranitar-Mega much better due to its Fighting STAB, it really makes it a more helpful option.

Lastly, Pheromosa has equal offenses, allowing it to use Ice Beam over Ice Hammer and Icicle Crash, which not only bypasses accuracy and side effects issues, but let’s it hit non-AV Zygarde-Complete off of its significantly weaker SpD stat.

This shuffle is bound to impact things down the line, but I can sense things might shift faster than we know it.
 
i disagree pretty strongly with rising mega gengar to s. mega gengar is very good for sure, but i just don't think it's on the same level as the other stuff in s atm. i think skylake's post nominating it to s overestimates gengar's versatility; sure, it has a lot of sets, but they largely lose to the same stuff, making it less of a challenge to work around in teambuilding than it may seem. unlike ray and mmx, the other fast wallbreakers in s rank, gengar offers far less defensively. its frailty and weakness to common types mean it struggles to switch in, can more easily be taken out by strong priority or fast dudes, and often has to take risks to set up. mmx and mega ray sometimes kinda feel like they have it all, while mega gengar has far more pronounced weaknesses, which make it easier to prep for and to play around. i would prefer to keep it where it is in a+ rank.
 
My thoughts on all the changes in this VR update including the stuff that didn't pass.
Rises:
  • A+ -> S [Agree, PH is super good rn and Band sets are still threatening seeing that some Prank Tinas are forgoing Sap for utility moves that make it less imp bait. Other sets are definitely solid too, such as Tech and to an extent -ate.]
  • A+ -> S [Hard disagree, MGar is pretty one dimensional compared to MMX and Ray seeing its sets all generally do the same thing. After spamming a triple MGar team on ladder its pretty obvious that MGar isn't all that difficult to handle. Lightning Rod seems like aids to deal with but they can't break past Unaware or Prankster. Other Smash sets tend to not have that many opportunities to setup and even against stuff like Tina they have to get 50/50s. Choiced sets aren't that great IMO and can be exploited. No way this is on par with MMX Ray or MMY and PDon before as they have a ton of different sets that break different stuff and actually have bulk.]
  • A -> A+ [Agree, PH Xern is easily super dominating and is good because it checks PH MMX super nicely while providing support.]
  • A -> A+ [Aids mon to S thanks (no don't actually)]
  • B -> A- [Hard disagree, B+ is ok but A- is like ??? Choice Band sets are overhyped and overrated af and aren't very great at all when PH MMX and PH Xern are so prevalent. Sand is really good but is not A- worthy.]
  • B- -> B+ [Abstain, both B and B+ are ok IMO.]
  • B- -> B [Abstain, haven't used this mon much, leaning towards staying because Chomp exists.]
  • D -> C [Yeah, think I nommed this before or smth.]
  • D -> C [See above.]
  • D -> C [Agree, definitely above the D ranks.]
  • D -> C [Abstain.]
  • UR -> D [Yeah I could see its appeal.]
  • UR -> D [FC Zor is ok and I have used it before so sure.]
  • UR -> D [I don't think this is worth using over MMX.]
  • UR -> D [Sure.]
  • UR -> D [I don't care]
  • UR -> D [Sure, I have seen it used in action and its pretty cool]
Drops:
  • S -> A+ [Should be the same rank as Diancie, who offers priority and much better STABs. Both have 1 really good set with some decent sets (Magic Guard + No Guard + Specs vs Magic Guard + Specs).]
  • A+ -> A [Should drop more, no way this is on the same level as Zyg, other steels while also being worse have appeals which heavily affect its viability.]
  • A+ -> A [Personally I don't think this should drop, Fairy STAB is really really good rn and Steels are getting worse. It can also bop Ho-Oh with Rock STAB if needed.]
  • A+ -> A [Abstain, both are ok.]
  • A- -> B+ [Sure.]
  • A- -> B+ [Sure, MMXs prevalence as well as the fact that RegenVests just aren't very good rn hinders its performance.]
  • A- -> B+ [Yes.]
  • B+ -> B- [Feel like this is too drastic as B is more OK seeing how this blanket checks half the meta.]
  • B+ -> B [Sure, its utility isn't as valued anymore although Bounce countering PH MMX is very good.]
  • B -> B- [Yes, garbage mon.]
  • B -> B- [Unmon.]
  • B- -> C [Unmon.]
  • B- -> D [Unmon.]
  • C -> D [Bad mon.]
  • C -> D [Never seen this at all.]
Others:
  • A -> A+ [Yes stay, this things bulk is great but it has this weakness to Ray because it doesn't run Core often and also typically requires another Ghost like Aegi which are just bad compared to Tina.]
  • C -> B- [I still think B- is better because of how strong the Adapt set.]
  • UR -> D [Definitely to D if all the other mons like Aggron and Scizor made it as this is a very durable check to Special Ray and Diancie and Gar while being able to absorb TSpikes is a cool thing as well.]
  • UR -> D [Abstain, D is more appropriate IMO though.]
  • UR -> D [Definitely to D as its similar to Nihilego but it has actual physical bulk and a Fighting resistance which makes it a very good counter to PH MMX and also Rocks V-create Diancie.]
  • UR -> D [I don't see this thing's niche.]
  • UR -> D [Diancie is just better because its Moonblast actually 2HKOs Ray/MMX.]
  • UR -> D [UR, 0 physical bulk.]
  • UR -> D [Stay UR, bad gimmick.]
  • UR -> D [UR probably, speed is nice but Cress is just better usually.]
  • UR -> D [Unmons that don't check Ray because Fighting coverage and Fire coverage does a million as well.]
  • UR -> D [D, this is actually a cool mon because like SL said its easy to improof and checks Gar and scouts stuff nicely.]
 
Hard to justify ranking Zekrom in B considering this mon is never seen tbh. All the others in B and B- I see with the exception of Aero and Zekrom. If anything I would've assumed that ppl running Chomper more means Zekrom ain't as good. Weird call to make.

The difference between Gengar and every other mon that's been S rank in the past is the obnoxious amount of support Gengar requires (with the exception of the norm set ig). It's really obnoxious to play with Spoop Gengar and scout/play around all the stray thief and Knock Off only to then be walled without too much trouble.
 
Nominations Post Ray (Praise Arceus)
Rayquaza-Mega
S -> Banned
Tyranitar-Mega
A- -> B
This mon is so bad now it loses to Xern it loses to MMX it loses to Zyg it loses to Diancie like lol. Not really worth using and if you want a Dark Yveltal is there. Sand is still great though.
Dialga
B+ -> B
This mon is so bad now it doesn't resist Fairy and loses to MMX. Doom Desire sets are OK but stuff like Ogre might get better so those aren't even that great.
Magearna
B+ -> B
Why is this so high lol it lost its niche of being a Steel that can offensively threaten Ray and its lower bulk definitely shows against some strong breakers. Its Fighting neutrality doesn't even help much unless its bounce because MMX just breaks.
Garchomp-Mega
B -> B+
This mon actually has 0 switch-ins and in a post-Ray meta it definitely is one of the best breakers there are and with Ray gone it has less worries of a) a dangerous mon switching into blades and b) being rked. A lot of mons that Ray threatened and now might see more use along with mons that can threaten Ray and also Chomp as a result might see less use helps too.
Ho-Oh
B- -> B+
Why is this mon still so low??? Its issue before was that it doesn't threaten Ray too much but now it checks the Fairies as well as PH MMX to an extent (can switch into Band CC as well). There have also been experimentation with MG sets such as LO as item and running moves like LoR and BB. Overall a very solid mon that can fit with a lot of other mons to form formidable cores.
Beedrill-Mega
C -> B
This mon in C-tier is terrible to see. One of the best speed control mons rn and pivots on a ton of things gaining momentum. U-turn chips MMX for like 50% which is nice and overall its just difficult to actually have a good switch-in unless you are like FC or PH Tina. No Ray means less SE priority for it.
Ferrothorn
C -> B-
I think this mon isn't complete garbage now because it no longer is that trash steel type because it is free for Ray. Checking Xern Diancie is decent and its slow speed is definitely annoying for opponent pivots. Also checks basically every PH Regigigas set which have been experimented with recently.
Necrozma-Ultra
C -> B-
This is a nice Dragon breaker that has a nice speed tier and doesn't face competition from Ray anymore. With less teams requiring sturdy resists for Rayquazas breaking level Necrozma definitely benefits on this (and unlike Kyu doesn't get impacted from Kyogre).
Charizard-Mega-Y
D -> C
The next best Flying type breaker, it used to not even be completely outclassed by Ray as it can setup on Xern and Fire stab is nice for Prank Steels.
Toxapex
UR -> D
Why is this UR when Empoleon is D wtf this is literally better than Empoleon even SL said you couldve replaced Emp with this on his RMT. Switches into all the fairies and PH MMX and even the Kyus which is all really GOOD. Heck maybe this is worth C.

Other mons that got more than marginally better with Ray Ban:

And more than marginally worse:
 
Nominations Post Ray (Praise Arceus)
Rayquaza-Mega
S -> Banned
Tyranitar-Mega
A- -> B
This mon is so bad now it loses to Xern it loses to MMX it loses to Zyg it loses to Diancie like lol. Not really worth using and if you want a Dark Yveltal is there. Sand is still great though.
Dialga
B+ -> B
This mon is so bad now it doesn't resist Fairy and loses to MMX. Doom Desire sets are OK but stuff like Ogre might get better so those aren't even that great.
Magearna
B+ -> B
Why is this so high lol it lost its niche of being a Steel that can offensively threaten Ray and its lower bulk definitely shows against some strong breakers. Its Fighting neutrality doesn't even help much unless its bounce because MMX just breaks.
Garchomp-Mega
B -> B+
This mon actually has 0 switch-ins and in a post-Ray meta it definitely is one of the best breakers there are and with Ray gone it has less worries of a) a dangerous mon switching into blades and b) being rked. A lot of mons that Ray threatened and now might see more use along with mons that can threaten Ray and also Chomp as a result might see less use helps too.
Ho-Oh
B- -> B+
Why is this mon still so low??? Its issue before was that it doesn't threaten Ray too much but now it checks the Fairies as well as PH MMX to an extent (can switch into Band CC as well). There have also been experimentation with MG sets such as LO as item and running moves like LoR and BB. Overall a very solid mon that can fit with a lot of other mons to form formidable cores.
Beedrill-Mega
C -> B
This mon in C-tier is terrible to see. One of the best speed control mons rn and pivots on a ton of things gaining momentum. U-turn chips MMX for like 50% which is nice and overall its just difficult to actually have a good switch-in unless you are like FC or PH Tina. No Ray means less SE priority for it.
Ferrothorn
C -> B-
I think this mon isn't complete garbage now because it no longer is that trash steel type because it is free for Ray. Checking Xern Diancie is decent and its slow speed is definitely annoying for opponent pivots. Also checks basically every PH Regigigas set which have been experimented with recently.
Necrozma-Ultra
C -> B-
This is a nice Dragon breaker that has a nice speed tier and doesn't face competition from Ray anymore. With less teams requiring sturdy resists for Rayquazas breaking level Necrozma definitely benefits on this (and unlike Kyu doesn't get impacted from Kyogre).
Charizard-Mega-Y
D -> C
The next best Flying type breaker, it used to not even be completely outclassed by Ray as it can setup on Xern and Fire stab is nice for Prank Steels.
Toxapex
UR -> D
Why is this UR when Empoleon is D wtf this is literally better than Empoleon even SL said you couldve replaced Emp with this on his RMT. Switches into all the fairies and PH MMX and even the Kyus which is all really GOOD. Heck maybe this is worth C.

Other mons that got more than marginally better with Ray Ban:

And more than marginally worse:
Why are you calling for vr changes lol. You realize we are in a functionally new meta that is a day old, yes? Calm your tits dude.
 

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
NGL, mega ray being banned kind of got me interested in this mode in the first place. Good to see I'll be joining the meta at a time when everyone is a little more on equal footing.
Glad to see new players join. It’s fun to come up with sets and themes for teams. Let us vets know if you need any tips, also check out the creative and underrated thread, it can provide some fun ideas most people ask about but haven’t tried themselves. Sort of the “what if?” Thread that gets answered by the people who post the replays and explain their sets, and possibly even their entire teams.

The OP of the Main BH thread also has some sample teams as well.

Hope you enjoy the Gen 7 Meta before Gen 8 comes, so many changes for Dynamaxing, I think many people will see the end of an era more than just an end of a Generation.

Have fun! And welcome aboard!
 
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VR Nominations
It's been long enough that we can start putting these in, and though I'm not sure whether Mega Rayquaza, Tail Glow, or Triage is the most broken element, it's definitely easier to build interesting teams now, something I'm thankful for. And of course, now that Mega Rayquaza is gone, a lot of stuff gets better or worse because of it.

Rises
Kartana b+ -> a-: I am never thrilled to see a high-level team with a Kartana on it. With two great abilities in Steelworker and tinted lens, as well as the possibility that it's Unburden Belly Drum, you never know whether your switchin can take a hit unless you're running Prank Zyg-C, and even that is ohkoed by banded Ice Hammer. Compared to Mega Tyranitar which is in A- right now, Its speed and stab move that ignores abilities are counterbalanced by Tyranitar's better neutral coverage, being able to pursuit trap stuff, and having more pp on its STABs. They are even more similar since they are able to run one-time setup sets (shell smash vs. belly drum), and have decent bulk. So they, to me, are in a similar ranking.

Garchomp Mega b -> a-: Another physical powerhouse similar to Ttar and Kartana, with about equal power and a speed that is conveniently between them. Mega Garchomp has the distinction of having incredible coverage with just two STAB moves, Dragon Hammer and Thousand Arrows. Meag Garchomp can run a +atk nature in order to predict less, as it can KO more things with Adaptability Thousand Arrows and doesn't have to worry about Precipice Blades missing or a flying type switching into it. Conversely, Jolly lets it outspeed +0 Modest Xern and hit that really hard with something. Even an Earth Plate boosted Thousand Arrows does about 70% which is enough to pressure it heavily, even if it Quiver Dances on the same turn and Chomp has to switch out. Garchomp can run both a choiced set to wallbreak, or a setup set with Shift Gear to combine as an early game softener and a late game sweeper after priority users are out. Improofing it can be annoying though, otherwise I'd rate it higher.

Celesteela b -> b+: This is the bulkiest Triage user, and even though its Spa stat is junk it can still deal plenty of damage with +3 Owings to unprepared teams. Primsea and AV sets are okay right now as well, and can act as sturdy improofs for stuff like Pdon, Diancie, or Xern. Dies to physical attackers though so you have to get out of there. It is unfortunately weak to Electric moves which people are running more, and it has 4mss no matter what set you pick for it.

Aerodactyl-Mega b - -> b: The Sand Stream set is quite solid right now, keeping many Triage users and Sturdy Sheds under control, and also helping against MMX spam. I personally like to run rockium z, which lets me also switch into entrain gar. Pair it up with a dragon type like zyg-c or gira to eat electric/water moves and you have a nice core.

Ho-Oh b- -> b: Very popular, both the magic bounce and magic guard sets. Offensive Magic Guard is beginning to rise, and we may even see other offensive sets now that Ray is gone. Ho-Oh can handle a lot of stuff, such as non-choiced non-setup MMX, Xerneas, and Diancie.

Kyurem-w b- -> b: Still one of the strongest breakers in the game and ice is such a strong offensive typing that you can often just click Boomburst with webs or paralysis support and stealth rock up, and stuff dies. Stealth Rock weakness is bad, and you do need a good deal of support to pull this off, but it's worth it.

Beedrill-mega c -> b-: Strong and fast, Beedrill is a great answer for the increased mega mewtwo usage during this metagame. Beedrill does have a weakness to stealth rock, and the Choice Band set loses momentum every time it gets a KO. Beedrill also has some other niche sets such as SF 4 attacks if you want to use it more as a breaker than a pivot, and Tinted Lens SD. It's quite easy to improof depending on the coverage without screwing up your team.

Charizard-Mega y D -> C: With Mega Rayquaza gone, this is possibly the closest you'll get to a special Mega Ray replacement. I would argue that the Fire typuing does more offensively than Dragon did for Mega Ray, as you can hit Steel types now with a 130 power Blue Flare or Shed with Magma Storm on any set. Aerilate and Triage are both really good as always. Just make sure you have solid hazard control.

Rhydon Ur -> d Fur Coat, Sand Stream: Ridiculous Eviolite-boosted defense stat means that FC Rhydon can eat some of the strongest hits, including two Mega Garchomp Adaptability Precipice Blades. Rhydon is also able to trap and remove physical attackers, such as Mega Garchomp and Regigigas, if it runs Anchor Shot and Ice Hammer. It's also an alternative to Regirock as a Sand Streamer, with better attack and slower speed and really nice mixed defenses. It's definitely on the level of other D ranked mons.

Bannette-Mega ur -> D Tough Claws: Why this mon isn't on the VR list is baffling, especially since Marowak-A is on there and it's a good deal worse. Ghost resists on most teams boil down to whatever Dark or Normal Type they have, which is easy enough to remove with Close Combat or Sunsteel. After that, Bannette can go to town on the enemy's walls, picking them off as they switch in (for example, it can do 75% to standard Registeel. Most people opt to run Shadow Sneak to give utility against faster mons, and it is strong enough to kill MMY after two rounds of Stealth Rock and Mega Gengar at full health. It's bulk is pretty bad, only able to survive a single moderately powerful attack such as unboosted Moonblast from Xerneas.

Drops
Rayquaza-Mega S -> ur: Fly away ...

Dialga b+ -> b or B-: With Mega Ray gone, Dialga finds itself a bit out of a distinct niche as it was able to switch into Specs Aerilate sets very well. Now, it faces competition with Ogre as the best Regenvest user now. Ogre's raw stats are a lot better than Dialga's, though Dialga's resistances do have some merit such as resisting Triage Celesteela's moveset. Even so, for the majority of special attackers, Kyogre and Dialga wall them about the same, but Kyogre has greater power on its offensive moves. If you want a spinner though, Dialga may be better for you, since its Core Enforcer actually threatens to 2hKO Giratina whereas Kyogre can't do the same. Though tbh, the need for regenvest users is a good deal less now.
Dialga's Doom Desire set is of course another good option, but it's not common enough that teams worry about prepping for it while building.

Kyurem-B b -> c: I've never been a big fan of either standard Kyurem-b set because it's weak to rocks and gets forced out by so much. Most wallbreakers can do everything Kyurem-B does and more. Even Kyurem-W plays the role of Ice type wallbreaker way better than Kyurem-B ever did.

Swampert-Mega C -> D: Middling defensive stats, and offensive stats that are in every way outclassed by Pdon and Chomp mean that there is usually something that you would want to put on your team over Swampert. The only advantage is the typing, as you get an imunity to Electric without being weak to Ice or Water. Offensive Swampert sets are not that good, as it's not too hard to force out Swampert with a faster attacker like MMX or Kartana.

Empoleon d -> ur: Seriously, this thing really sucks. you can only use it as a switchin to utility moves, and even then, hazard setters can easily run something to get around it. For example, rocks pdon beats it, Nuzzle Xern beats it since you just wait for full para to hit during a crucial recover, ph fini and Kyogre beats it with Knock Off and Scald, Diancie's Boomburst 2hkos so it has a hard time switching in, etc. It barely avoids being 2hkoed by so many things that you lose most of the momentum you gain recovering and have to play very patiently to get the momentum back. This nomination was obviously a meme and I know a player hit 2000 elo with it but we are trying to make this newbie-friendly, and newbies will quickly get this mon killed. Get it off here.

Venusaur-Mega d -> Ur: I don't see anyone using this anymore. It's become the victim of power creep and should be put to rest.


TLDR: too bad, go read it
 
VR Nominations
It's been long enough that we can start putting these in, and though I'm not sure whether Mega Rayquaza, Tail Glow, or Triage is the most broken element, it's definitely easier to build interesting teams now, something I'm thankful for. And of course, now that Mega Rayquaza is gone, a lot of stuff gets better or worse because of it.

Rises
Kartana b+ -> a-: I am never thrilled to see a high-level team with a Kartana on it. With two great abilities in Steelworker and tinted lens, as well as the possibility that it's Unburden Belly Drum, you never know whether your switchin can take a hit unless you're running Prank Zyg-C, and even that is ohkoed by banded Ice Hammer. Compared to Mega Tyranitar which is in A- right now, Its speed and stab move that ignores abilities are counterbalanced by Tyranitar's better neutral coverage, being able to pursuit trap stuff, and having more pp on its STABs. They are even more similar since they are able to run one-time setup sets (shell smash vs. belly drum), and have decent bulk. So they, to me, are in a similar ranking.

Garchomp Mega b -> a-: Another physical powerhouse similar to Ttar and Kartana, with about equal power and a speed that is conveniently between them. Mega Garchomp has the distinction of having incredible coverage with just two STAB moves, Dragon Hammer and Thousand Arrows. Meag Garchomp can run a +atk nature in order to predict less, as it can KO more things with Adaptability Thousand Arrows and doesn't have to worry about Precipice Blades missing or a flying type switching into it. Conversely, Jolly lets it outspeed +0 Modest Xern and hit that really hard with something. Even an Earth Plate boosted Thousand Arrows does about 70% which is enough to pressure it heavily, even if it Quiver Dances on the same turn and Chomp has to switch out. Garchomp can run both a choiced set to wallbreak, or a setup set with Shift Gear to combine as an early game softener and a late game sweeper after priority users are out. Improofing it can be annoying though, otherwise I'd rate it higher.

Celesteela b -> b+: This is the bulkiest Triage user, and even though its Spa stat is junk it can still deal plenty of damage with +3 Owings to unprepared teams. Primsea and AV sets are okay right now as well, and can act as sturdy improofs for stuff like Pdon, Diancie, or Xern. Dies to physical attackers though so you have to get out of there. It is unfortunately weak to Electric moves which people are running more, and it has 4mss no matter what set you pick for it.

Aerodactyl-Mega b - -> b: The Sand Stream set is quite solid right now, keeping many Triage users and Sturdy Sheds under control, and also helping against MMX spam. I personally like to run rockium z, which lets me also switch into entrain gar. Pair it up with a dragon type like zyg-c or gira to eat electric/water moves and you have a nice core.

Ho-Oh b- -> b: Very popular, both the magic bounce and magic guard sets. Offensive Magic Guard is beginning to rise, and we may even see other offensive sets now that Ray is gone. Ho-Oh can handle a lot of stuff, such as non-choiced non-setup MMX, Xerneas, and Diancie.

Kyurem-w b- -> b: Still one of the strongest breakers in the game and ice is such a strong offensive typing that you can often just click Boomburst with webs or paralysis support and stealth rock up, and stuff dies. Stealth Rock weakness is bad, and you do need a good deal of support to pull this off, but it's worth it.

Beedrill-mega c -> b-: Strong and fast, Beedrill is a great answer for the increased mega mewtwo usage during this metagame. Beedrill does have a weakness to stealth rock, and the Choice Band set loses momentum every time it gets a KO. Beedrill also has some other niche sets such as SF 4 attacks if you want to use it more as a breaker than a pivot, and Tinted Lens SD. It's quite easy to improof depending on the coverage without screwing up your team.

Charizard-Mega y D -> C: With Mega Rayquaza gone, this is possibly the closest you'll get to a special Mega Ray replacement. I would argue that the Fire typuing does more offensively than Dragon did for Mega Ray, as you can hit Steel types now with a 130 power Blue Flare or Shed with Magma Storm on any set. Aerilate and Triage are both really good as always. Just make sure you have solid hazard control.

Rhydon Ur -> d Fur Coat, Sand Stream: Ridiculous Eviolite-boosted defense stat means that FC Rhydon can eat some of the strongest hits, including two Mega Garchomp Adaptability Precipice Blades. Rhydon is also able to trap and remove physical attackers, such as Mega Garchomp and Regigigas, if it runs Anchor Shot and Ice Hammer. It's also an alternative to Regirock as a Sand Streamer, with better attack and slower speed and really nice mixed defenses. It's definitely on the level of other D ranked mons.

Bannette-Mega ur -> D Tough Claws: Why this mon isn't on the VR list is baffling, especially since Marowak-A is on there and it's a good deal worse. Ghost resists on most teams boil down to whatever Dark or Normal Type they have, which is easy enough to remove with Close Combat or Sunsteel. After that, Bannette can go to town on the enemy's walls, picking them off as they switch in (for example, it can do 75% to standard Registeel. Most people opt to run Shadow Sneak to give utility against faster mons, and it is strong enough to kill MMY after two rounds of Stealth Rock and Mega Gengar at full health. It's bulk is pretty bad, only able to survive a single moderately powerful attack such as unboosted Moonblast from Xerneas.

Drops
Rayquaza-Mega S -> ur: Fly away ...

Dialga b+ -> b or B-: With Mega Ray gone, Dialga finds itself a bit out of a distinct niche as it was able to switch into Specs Aerilate sets very well. Now, it faces competition with Ogre as the best Regenvest user now. Ogre's raw stats are a lot better than Dialga's, though Dialga's resistances do have some merit such as resisting Triage Celesteela's moveset. Even so, for the majority of special attackers, Kyogre and Dialga wall them about the same, but Kyogre has greater power on its offensive moves. If you want a spinner though, Dialga may be better for you, since its Core Enforcer actually threatens to 2hKO Giratina whereas Kyogre can't do the same. Though tbh, the need for regenvest users is a good deal less now.
Dialga's Doom Desire set is of course another good option, but it's not common enough that teams worry about prepping for it while building.

Kyurem-B b -> c: I've never been a big fan of either standard Kyurem-b set because it's weak to rocks and gets forced out by so much. Most wallbreakers can do everything Kyurem-B does and more. Even Kyurem-W plays the role of Ice type wallbreaker way better than Kyurem-B ever did.

Swampert-Mega C -> D: Middling defensive stats, and offensive stats that are in every way outclassed by Pdon and Chomp mean that there is usually something that you would want to put on your team over Swampert. The only advantage is the typing, as you get an imunity to Electric without being weak to Ice or Water. Offensive Swampert sets are not that good, as it's not too hard to force out Swampert with a faster attacker like MMX or Kartana.

Empoleon d -> ur: Seriously, this thing really sucks. you can only use it as a switchin to utility moves, and even then, hazard setters can easily run something to get around it. For example, rocks pdon beats it, Nuzzle Xern beats it since you just wait for full para to hit during a crucial recover, ph fini and Kyogre beats it with Knock Off and Scald, Diancie's Boomburst 2hkos so it has a hard time switching in, etc. It barely avoids being 2hkoed by so many things that you lose most of the momentum you gain recovering and have to play very patiently to get the momentum back. This nomination was obviously a meme and I know a player hit 2000 elo with it but we are trying to make this newbie-friendly, and newbies will quickly get this mon killed. Get it off here.

Venusaur-Mega d -> Ur: I don't see anyone using this anymore. It's become the victim of power creep and should be put to rest.


TLDR: too bad, go read it
I agree with all of these pretty much, though i'm a bit skeptical on Rhrydon, but still it does look decent on paper. This is a very good post!
 
alright lets go
Tyranitar-Mega
A- -> B
This mon is so bad now it loses to Xern it loses to MMX it loses to Zyg it loses to Diancie like lol. Not really worth using and if you want a Dark Yveltal is there. Sand is still great though.
agree, ttar has too many weaknesses, sand stream gar needs like zmove or memory to beat normalize gar which sucks, he loses to all other gars because of sword. offensively i think ttar is rly awkward to use and needs a lot of support. b is fine for this imo.
Dialga
B+ -> B
This mon is so bad now it doesn't resist Fairy and loses to MMX. Doom Desire sets are OK but stuff like Ogre might get better so those aren't even that great.
Dialga b+ -> b or B-: With Mega Ray gone, Dialga finds itself a bit out of a distinct niche as it was able to switch into Specs Aerilate sets very well. Now, it faces competition with Ogre as the best Regenvest user now. Ogre's raw stats are a lot better than Dialga's, though Dialga's resistances do have some merit such as resisting Triage Celesteela's moveset. Even so, for the majority of special attackers, Kyogre and Dialga wall them about the same, but Kyogre has greater power on its offensive moves. If you want a spinner though, Dialga may be better for you, since its Core Enforcer actually threatens to 2hKO Giratina whereas Kyogre can't do the same. Though tbh, the need for regenvest users is a good deal less now.
Dialga's Doom Desire set is of course another good option, but it's not common enough that teams worry about prepping for it while building.
disagree, i think b+ is fine. yes, regenvest is garbage now, but since youre less likely to run into opposing regenvest dialga is more likely to get stuff done offensively which is one of the main things you use him more. registeel is also less mandatory after mray ban and he bops this mon.
Magearna
B+ -> B
Why is this so high lol it lost its niche of being a Steel that can offensively threaten Ray and its lower bulk definitely shows against some strong breakers. Its Fighting neutrality doesn't even help much unless its bounce because MMX just breaks.
nah gear is fine it beats like every defensive mon and if you have pdon adequately covered and a good imposter proofer (or just run endeavor on regenvest lol i did that once) as well as a good zyg check gear will not disappoint. it pairs really well with mons that need gira forced out like mmy and mmx that can 2hko on the switch but cant really take on a healthy gira 1v1.
Garchomp-Mega
B -> B+
This mon actually has 0 switch-ins and in a post-Ray meta it definitely is one of the best breakers there are and with Ray gone it has less worries of a) a dangerous mon switching into blades and b) being rked. A lot of mons that Ray threatened and now might see more use along with mons that can threaten Ray and also Chomp as a result might see less use helps too.
Garchomp Mega b -> a-: Another physical powerhouse similar to Ttar and Kartana, with about equal power and a speed that is conveniently between them. Mega Garchomp has the distinction of having incredible coverage with just two STAB moves, Dragon Hammer and Thousand Arrows. Meag Garchomp can run a +atk nature in order to predict less, as it can KO more things with Adaptability Thousand Arrows and doesn't have to worry about Precipice Blades missing or a flying type switching into it. Conversely, Jolly lets it outspeed +0 Modest Xern and hit that really hard with something. Even an Earth Plate boosted Thousand Arrows does about 70% which is enough to pressure it heavily, even if it Quiver Dances on the same turn and Chomp has to switch out. Garchomp can run both a choiced set to wallbreak, or a setup set with Shift Gear to combine as an early game softener and a late game sweeper after priority users are out. Improofing it can be annoying though, otherwise I'd rate it higher.
disagree chomp is really fragile and im generally not a fan of it. need to keep it away from core, cb is the only set that ohkos ogre and with him you dont want to be locked into any move. also really easy to revenge kill so its not self sufficient and makes u use a reactive playstyle.
Ho-Oh
B- -> B+
Why is this mon still so low??? Its issue before was that it doesn't threaten Ray too much but now it checks the Fairies as well as PH MMX to an extent (can switch into Band CC as well). There have also been experimentation with MG sets such as LO as item and running moves like LoR and BB. Overall a very solid mon that can fit with a lot of other mons to form formidable cores.
Ho-Oh b- -> b: Very popular, both the magic bounce and magic guard sets. Offensive Magic Guard is beginning to rise, and we may even see other offensive sets now that Ray is gone. Ho-Oh can handle a lot of stuff, such as non-choiced non-setup MMX, Xerneas, and Diancie.
agree this is a good pokemon. beats all non rock/electric move diancie and xern really well thanks to his really high spdef. ive also been using some sets that take advantage of his good attack stat.
Beedrill-Mega
C -> B
This mon in C-tier is terrible to see. One of the best speed control mons rn and pivots on a ton of things gaining momentum. U-turn chips MMX for like 50% which is nice and overall its just difficult to actually have a good switch-in unless you are like FC or PH Tina. No Ray means less SE priority for it.
Beedrill-mega c -> b-: Strong and fast, Beedrill is a great answer for the increased mega mewtwo usage during this metagame. Beedrill does have a weakness to stealth rock, and the Choice Band set loses momentum every time it gets a KO. Beedrill also has some other niche sets such as SF 4 attacks if you want to use it more as a breaker than a pivot, and Tinted Lens SD. It's quite easy to improof depending on the coverage without screwing up your team.
eh i think b- is fine. bee is good but hes not that good, only a great choice if theres mmx/mmy on the opposing team which is something you can rely on less and less often recently. cant switch into anything and gira is annoyingly common.
Ferrothorn
C -> B-
I think this mon isn't complete garbage now because it no longer is that trash steel type because it is free for Ray. Checking Xern Diancie is decent and its slow speed is definitely annoying for opponent pivots. Also checks basically every PH Regigigas set which have been experimented with recently.
disagree, i think c is fine for this. its not the nigh unusable trash that it was before but it isnt really great either. feels really passive, i guess beating regi over venu is ok but thats not a hard mon to cover.
Necrozma-Ultra
C -> B-
This is a nice Dragon breaker that has a nice speed tier and doesn't face competition from Ray anymore. With less teams requiring sturdy resists for Rayquazas breaking level Necrozma definitely benefits on this (and unlike Kyu doesn't get impacted from Kyogre).
agree, ive been experimenting with lo on the adapt set over specs and ive been impressed so far. draco still ohkos the mons you want it to while youre no longer punishable for being locked into anything although draco/boost spa drops are annoying.
Charizard-Mega-Y
D -> C
The next best Flying type breaker, it used to not even be completely outclassed by Ray as it can setup on Xern and Fire stab is nice for Prank Steels.
Charizard-Mega y D -> C: With Mega Rayquaza gone, this is possibly the closest you'll get to a special Mega Ray replacement. I would argue that the Fire typuing does more offensively than Dragon did for Mega Ray, as you can hit Steel types now with a 130 power Blue Flare or Shed with Magma Storm on any set. Aerilate and Triage are both really good as always. Just make sure you have solid hazard control.
c is fine, maybe he can rise more in the future but im not sure yet. havent used this much.
Toxapex
UR -> D
Why is this UR when Empoleon is D wtf this is literally better than Empoleon even SL said you couldve replaced Emp with this on his RMT. Switches into all the fairies and PH MMX and even the Kyus which is all really GOOD. Heck maybe this is worth C.
calling this a kyurem switchin is a stretch, but yea its good enough for d probably
Kartana b+ -> a-: I am never thrilled to see a high-level team with a Kartana on it. With two great abilities in Steelworker and tinted lens, as well as the possibility that it's Unburden Belly Drum, you never know whether your switchin can take a hit unless you're running Prank Zyg-C, and even that is ohkoed by banded Ice Hammer. Compared to Mega Tyranitar which is in A- right now, Its speed and stab move that ignores abilities are counterbalanced by Tyranitar's better neutral coverage, being able to pursuit trap stuff, and having more pp on its STABs. They are even more similar since they are able to run one-time setup sets (shell smash vs. belly drum), and have decent bulk. So they, to me, are in a similar ranking.
ttar doesnt deserve a- so i dont think this deserves it either. cb is cool if they have no switchin but you need to account for the possibility that they do and similar to chomp hes very easy to revenge kill. i think b+ is fine, this feels like a dialga tier mon
Celesteela b -> b+: This is the bulkiest Triage user, and even though its Spa stat is junk it can still deal plenty of damage with +3 Owings to unprepared teams. Primsea and AV sets are okay right now as well, and can act as sturdy improofs for stuff like Pdon, Diancie, or Xern. Dies to physical attackers though so you have to get out of there. It is unfortunately weak to Electric moves which people are running more, and it has 4mss no matter what set you pick for it.
im kinda neutral on this, steela is a good triage user but it plays a lot differently from other triage users and im not convinced that the mon is better than b rank in general. the problem is that it doesnt do great vs fairy types and takes volt switch/discharge a lot worse than hooh
Aerodactyl-Mega b - -> b: The Sand Stream set is quite solid right now, keeping many Triage users and Sturdy Sheds under control, and also helping against MMX spam. I personally like to run rockium z, which lets me also switch into entrain gar. Pair it up with a dragon type like zyg-c or gira to eat electric/water moves and you have a nice core.
i dont think this should rise. sand stream beats shed but with ray gone it lost much of its niche imo. the rock weakness, water weakness, and inability to do anything to most defensive mons is really annoying for him.
Kyurem-w b- -> b: Still one of the strongest breakers in the game and ice is such a strong offensive typing that you can often just click Boomburst with webs or paralysis support and stealth rock up, and stuff dies. Stealth Rock weakness is bad, and you do need a good deal of support to pull this off, but it's worth it.
soundproof has kinda died off but regenvest ogre and ogre in general is still around so im hesitant to agree here. this mon also feels really fragile, dies immediately to mmx and fairy moves etc
Rhydon Ur -> d Fur Coat, Sand Stream: Ridiculous Eviolite-boosted defense stat means that FC Rhydon can eat some of the strongest hits, including two Mega Garchomp Adaptability Precipice Blades. Rhydon is also able to trap and remove physical attackers, such as Mega Garchomp and Regigigas, if it runs Anchor Shot and Ice Hammer. It's also an alternative to Regirock as a Sand Streamer, with better attack and slower speed and really nice mixed defenses. It's definitely on the level of other D ranked mons.
why would i use this over fc zyg who can eat knocks, has a better defensive typing, and has actual spdef
Bannette-Mega ur -> D Tough Claws: Why this mon isn't on the VR list is baffling, especially since Marowak-A is on there and it's a good deal worse. Ghost resists on most teams boil down to whatever Dark or Normal Type they have, which is easy enough to remove with Close Combat or Sunsteel. After that, Bannette can go to town on the enemy's walls, picking them off as they switch in (for example, it can do 75% to standard Registeel. Most people opt to run Shadow Sneak to give utility against faster mons, and it is strong enough to kill MMY after two rounds of Stealth Rock and Mega Gengar at full health. It's bulk is pretty bad, only able to survive a single moderately powerful attack such as unboosted Moonblast from Xerneas.
sure im fine with this, hes another of the slow prediction reliant guys but this is d rank we're talking here
Kyurem-B b -> c: I've never been a big fan of either standard Kyurem-b set because it's weak to rocks and gets forced out by so much. Most wallbreakers can do everything Kyurem-B does and more. Even Kyurem-W plays the role of Ice type wallbreaker way better than Kyurem-B ever did.
:pikuh:
Swampert-Mega C -> D: Middling defensive stats, and offensive stats that are in every way outclassed by Pdon and Chomp mean that there is usually something that you would want to put on your team over Swampert. The only advantage is the typing, as you get an imunity to Electric without being weak to Ice or Water. Offensive Swampert sets are not that good, as it's not too hard to force out Swampert with a faster attacker like MMX or Kartana.
this reasoning is fine, swamperts an awkward mon but i think c is alright for it. something i like about him is that you can run regenvest and imposter proof with grass move. soundproof and bounce are both fine sets very team specific but are good with the right support
Empoleon d -> ur: Seriously, this thing really sucks. you can only use it as a switchin to utility moves, and even then, hazard setters can easily run something to get around it. For example, rocks pdon beats it, Nuzzle Xern beats it since you just wait for full para to hit during a crucial recover, ph fini and Kyogre beats it with Knock Off and Scald, Diancie's Boomburst 2hkos so it has a hard time switching in, etc. It barely avoids being 2hkoed by so many things that you lose most of the momentum you gain recovering and have to play very patiently to get the momentum back. This nomination was obviously a meme and I know a player hit 2000 elo with it but we are trying to make this newbie-friendly, and newbies will quickly get this mon killed. Get it off here.
nuzzle xern and ogre dont beat it. diancie burst only 2hkos if its specs in which case you can go to a soundproofer or shed or whatever the kids are running these days. this pokemon is similar to gear, its not super sturdy but it can take on most defensive stuff thanks to its stellar typing and get momentum. "newbies will quickly get this mon killed" just like theyll lose with any good team because they dont know how to play the game, this isnt an argument.
Venusaur-Mega d -> Ur: I don't see anyone using this anymore. It's become the victim of power creep and should be put to rest.
no he should rise to c, ive honestly found this mon to be really useful on a lot of teams. here are the 2 sets ive been running

Venusaur-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Poison Fang
- Entrainment
- Heal Order

Venusaur-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Giga Drain
- Steam Eruption
- Ice Beam

first set is pretty standard venu, hes not passive because he poisons people, beats imposter, and hard counters all fairy types. takes on everything except specs diancie if a spike is up. other ph users like mmx ogre etc cant really switch in because even if they threaten him they take entrain chip. second set is kind of a meme but giga destroys diancie which is hilarious and steam icebeam is good enough coverage vs the meta so he can break stuff when he sets up. another cool thing about venu is that he imposter proofs the legendary set SIGNATURE MOVE MAN so running him allows you to run that as well.

here are my own noms:

base ray ur to c, mega pidgeot ur to d: zovrah has been spamming base ray penguin and it seems to be doing pretty well. pidgeot is cool because he has decent enough special attack but also has that useful normal typing to dodge spectral altogether, so you can just set up on guys like ogre which is actually really cool.

nihilego ur to d: despite ray getting banned lego is still a cool mon, he destroys fairy types and can take on the new birds that are starting to take ray's place, and does a lot better of a job than it did vs ray.

cresselia b- to b: cress is cool. i used to use him in a support role but ive found he works much better as a wall. the set i have been running is poison heal with spiky shield/wisp/spectral/uturn, and it does extremely well vs spammy offenses as long as gar is adequately covered.

uhh maybe steelix c to d, this mon has a lot of really bad weaknesses, but im unsure because i dont know if its that awful in practice
 

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
alright lets go

agree, ttar has too many weaknesses, sand stream gar needs like zmove or memory to beat normalize gar which sucks, he loses to all other gars because of sword. offensively i think ttar is rly awkward to use and needs a lot of support. b is fine for this imo.


disagree, i think b+ is fine. yes, regenvest is garbage now, but since youre less likely to run into opposing regenvest dialga is more likely to get stuff done offensively which is one of the main things you use him more. registeel is also less mandatory after mray ban and he bops this mon.

nah gear is fine it beats like every defensive mon and if you have pdon adequately covered and a good imposter proofer (or just run endeavor on regenvest lol i did that once) as well as a good zyg check gear will not disappoint. it pairs really well with mons that need gira forced out like mmy and mmx that can 2hko on the switch but cant really take on a healthy gira 1v1.


disagree chomp is really fragile and im generally not a fan of it. need to keep it away from core, cb is the only set that ohkos ogre and with him you dont want to be locked into any move. also really easy to revenge kill so its not self sufficient and makes u use a reactive playstyle.


agree this is a good pokemon. beats all non rock/electric move diancie and xern really well thanks to his really high spdef. ive also been using some sets that take advantage of his good attack stat.

eh i think b- is fine. bee is good but hes not that good, only a great choice if theres mmx/mmy on the opposing team which is something you can rely on less and less often recently. cant switch into anything and gira is annoyingly common.

disagree, i think c is fine for this. its not the nigh unusable trash that it was before but it isnt really great either. feels really passive, i guess beating regi over venu is ok but thats not a hard mon to cover.

agree, ive been experimenting with lo on the adapt set over specs and ive been impressed so far. draco still ohkos the mons you want it to while youre no longer punishable for being locked into anything although draco/boost spa drops are annoying.


c is fine, maybe he can rise more in the future but im not sure yet. havent used this much.

calling this a kyurem switchin is a stretch, but yea its good enough for d probably

ttar doesnt deserve a- so i dont think this deserves it either. cb is cool if they have no switchin but you need to account for the possibility that they do and similar to chomp hes very easy to revenge kill. i think b+ is fine, this feels like a dialga tier mon

im kinda neutral on this, steela is a good triage user but it plays a lot differently from other triage users and im not convinced that the mon is better than b rank in general. the problem is that it doesnt do great vs fairy types and takes volt switch/discharge a lot worse than hooh

i dont think this should rise. sand stream beats shed but with ray gone it lost much of its niche imo. the rock weakness, water weakness, and inability to do anything to most defensive mons is really annoying for him.

soundproof has kinda died off but regenvest ogre and ogre in general is still around so im hesitant to agree here. this mon also feels really fragile, dies immediately to mmx and fairy moves etc

why would i use this over fc zyg who can eat knocks, has a better defensive typing, and has actual spdef

sure im fine with this, hes another of the slow prediction reliant guys but this is d rank we're talking here

:pikuh:

this reasoning is fine, swamperts an awkward mon but i think c is alright for it. something i like about him is that you can run regenvest and imposter proof with grass move. soundproof and bounce are both fine sets very team specific but are good with the right support

nuzzle xern and ogre dont beat it. diancie burst only 2hkos if its specs in which case you can go to a soundproofer or shed or whatever the kids are running these days. this pokemon is similar to gear, its not super sturdy but it can take on most defensive stuff thanks to its stellar typing and get momentum. "newbies will quickly get this mon killed" just like theyll lose with any good team because they dont know how to play the game, this isnt an argument.

no he should rise to c, ive honestly found this mon to be really useful on a lot of teams. here are the 2 sets ive been running

Venusaur-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Poison Fang
- Entrainment
- Heal Order

Venusaur-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Giga Drain
- Steam Eruption
- Ice Beam

first set is pretty standard venu, hes not passive because he poisons people, beats imposter, and hard counters all fairy types. takes on everything except specs diancie if a spike is up. other ph users like mmx ogre etc cant really switch in because even if they threaten him they take entrain chip. second set is kind of a meme but giga destroys diancie which is hilarious and steam icebeam is good enough coverage vs the meta so he can break stuff when he sets up. another cool thing about venu is that he imposter proofs the legendary set SIGNATURE MOVE MAN so running him allows you to run that as well.

here are my own noms:

base ray ur to c, mega pidgeot ur to d: zovrah has been spamming base ray penguin and it seems to be doing pretty well. pidgeot is cool because he has decent enough special attack but also has that useful normal typing to dodge spectral altogether, so you can just set up on guys like ogre which is actually really cool.

nihilego ur to d: despite ray getting banned lego is still a cool mon, he destroys fairy types and can take on the new birds that are starting to take ray's place, and does a lot better of a job than it did vs ray.

cresselia b- to b: cress is cool. i used to use him in a support role but ive found he works much better as a wall. the set i have been running is poison heal with spiky shield/wisp/spectral/uturn, and it does extremely well vs spammy offenses as long as gar is adequately covered.

uhh maybe steelix c to d, this mon has a lot of really bad weaknesses, but im unsure because i dont know if its that awful in practice
Could you post some replays?
Venusaur-Mega is pretty rarely seen by most anyone, and I think, similar to Empoleon’s justification to its original rise, I feel Venusaur needs some replays.
:)
P.S. I agree on Nihilego, Sandstream is very underestimated, and it’s useful Poison-typing aids it to soak up TSpikes, and sport an Immunity to any Poison while keeping its Fire Resistance.
——————————
VR Nominations
It's been long enough that we can start putting these in, and though I'm not sure whether Mega Rayquaza, Tail Glow, or Triage is the most broken element, it's definitely easier to build interesting teams now, something I'm thankful for. And of course, now that Mega Rayquaza is gone, a lot of stuff gets better or worse because of it.

Rises
Kartana b+ -> a-: I am never thrilled to see a high-level team with a Kartana on it. With two great abilities in Steelworker and tinted lens, as well as the possibility that it's Unburden Belly Drum, you never know whether your switchin can take a hit unless you're running Prank Zyg-C, and even that is ohkoed by banded Ice Hammer. Compared to Mega Tyranitar which is in A- right now, Its speed and stab move that ignores abilities are counterbalanced by Tyranitar's better neutral coverage, being able to pursuit trap stuff, and having more pp on its STABs. They are even more similar since they are able to run one-time setup sets (shell smash vs. belly drum), and have decent bulk. So they, to me, are in a similar ranking.

Garchomp Mega b -> a-: Another physical powerhouse similar to Ttar and Kartana, with about equal power and a speed that is conveniently between them. Mega Garchomp has the distinction of having incredible coverage with just two STAB moves, Dragon Hammer and Thousand Arrows. Meag Garchomp can run a +atk nature in order to predict less, as it can KO more things with Adaptability Thousand Arrows and doesn't have to worry about Precipice Blades missing or a flying type switching into it. Conversely, Jolly lets it outspeed +0 Modest Xern and hit that really hard with something. Even an Earth Plate boosted Thousand Arrows does about 70% which is enough to pressure it heavily, even if it Quiver Dances on the same turn and Chomp has to switch out. Garchomp can run both a choiced set to wallbreak, or a setup set with Shift Gear to combine as an early game softener and a late game sweeper after priority users are out. Improofing it can be annoying though, otherwise I'd rate it higher.

Celesteela b -> b+: This is the bulkiest Triage user, and even though its Spa stat is junk it can still deal plenty of damage with +3 Owings to unprepared teams. Primsea and AV sets are okay right now as well, and can act as sturdy improofs for stuff like Pdon, Diancie, or Xern. Dies to physical attackers though so you have to get out of there. It is unfortunately weak to Electric moves which people are running more, and it has 4mss no matter what set you pick for it.

Aerodactyl-Mega b - -> b: The Sand Stream set is quite solid right now, keeping many Triage users and Sturdy Sheds under control, and also helping against MMX spam. I personally like to run rockium z, which lets me also switch into entrain gar. Pair it up with a dragon type like zyg-c or gira to eat electric/water moves and you have a nice core.

Ho-Oh b- -> b: Very popular, both the magic bounce and magic guard sets. Offensive Magic Guard is beginning to rise, and we may even see other offensive sets now that Ray is gone. Ho-Oh can handle a lot of stuff, such as non-choiced non-setup MMX, Xerneas, and Diancie.

Kyurem-w b- -> b: Still one of the strongest breakers in the game and ice is such a strong offensive typing that you can often just click Boomburst with webs or paralysis support and stealth rock up, and stuff dies. Stealth Rock weakness is bad, and you do need a good deal of support to pull this off, but it's worth it.

Beedrill-mega c -> b-: Strong and fast, Beedrill is a great answer for the increased mega mewtwo usage during this metagame. Beedrill does have a weakness to stealth rock, and the Choice Band set loses momentum every time it gets a KO. Beedrill also has some other niche sets such as SF 4 attacks if you want to use it more as a breaker than a pivot, and Tinted Lens SD. It's quite easy to improof depending on the coverage without screwing up your team.

Charizard-Mega y D -> C: With Mega Rayquaza gone, this is possibly the closest you'll get to a special Mega Ray replacement. I would argue that the Fire typuing does more offensively than Dragon did for Mega Ray, as you can hit Steel types now with a 130 power Blue Flare or Shed with Magma Storm on any set. Aerilate and Triage are both really good as always. Just make sure you have solid hazard control.

Rhydon Ur -> d Fur Coat, Sand Stream: Ridiculous Eviolite-boosted defense stat means that FC Rhydon can eat some of the strongest hits, including two Mega Garchomp Adaptability Precipice Blades. Rhydon is also able to trap and remove physical attackers, such as Mega Garchomp and Regigigas, if it runs Anchor Shot and Ice Hammer. It's also an alternative to Regirock as a Sand Streamer, with better attack and slower speed and really nice mixed defenses. It's definitely on the level of other D ranked mons.

Bannette-Mega ur -> D Tough Claws: Why this mon isn't on the VR list is baffling, especially since Marowak-A is on there and it's a good deal worse. Ghost resists on most teams boil down to whatever Dark or Normal Type they have, which is easy enough to remove with Close Combat or Sunsteel. After that, Bannette can go to town on the enemy's walls, picking them off as they switch in (for example, it can do 75% to standard Registeel. Most people opt to run Shadow Sneak to give utility against faster mons, and it is strong enough to kill MMY after two rounds of Stealth Rock and Mega Gengar at full health. It's bulk is pretty bad, only able to survive a single moderately powerful attack such as unboosted Moonblast from Xerneas.

Drops
Rayquaza-Mega S -> ur: Fly away ...

Dialga b+ -> b or B-: With Mega Ray gone, Dialga finds itself a bit out of a distinct niche as it was able to switch into Specs Aerilate sets very well. Now, it faces competition with Ogre as the best Regenvest user now. Ogre's raw stats are a lot better than Dialga's, though Dialga's resistances do have some merit such as resisting Triage Celesteela's moveset. Even so, for the majority of special attackers, Kyogre and Dialga wall them about the same, but Kyogre has greater power on its offensive moves. If you want a spinner though, Dialga may be better for you, since its Core Enforcer actually threatens to 2hKO Giratina whereas Kyogre can't do the same. Though tbh, the need for regenvest users is a good deal less now.
Dialga's Doom Desire set is of course another good option, but it's not common enough that teams worry about prepping for it while building.

Kyurem-B b -> c: I've never been a big fan of either standard Kyurem-b set because it's weak to rocks and gets forced out by so much. Most wallbreakers can do everything Kyurem-B does and more. Even Kyurem-W plays the role of Ice type wallbreaker way better than Kyurem-B ever did.

Swampert-Mega C -> D: Middling defensive stats, and offensive stats that are in every way outclassed by Pdon and Chomp mean that there is usually something that you would want to put on your team over Swampert. The only advantage is the typing, as you get an imunity to Electric without being weak to Ice or Water. Offensive Swampert sets are not that good, as it's not too hard to force out Swampert with a faster attacker like MMX or Kartana.

Empoleon d -> ur: Seriously, this thing really sucks. you can only use it as a switchin to utility moves, and even then, hazard setters can easily run something to get around it. For example, rocks pdon beats it, Nuzzle Xern beats it since you just wait for full para to hit during a crucial recover, ph fini and Kyogre beats it with Knock Off and Scald, Diancie's Boomburst 2hkos so it has a hard time switching in, etc. It barely avoids being 2hkoed by so many things that you lose most of the momentum you gain recovering and have to play very patiently to get the momentum back. This nomination was obviously a meme and I know a player hit 2000 elo with it but we are trying to make this newbie-friendly, and newbies will quickly get this mon killed. Get it off here.

Venusaur-Mega d -> Ur: I don't see anyone using this anymore. It's become the victim of power creep and should be put to rest.


TLDR: too bad, go read it
Kartana: Disagree - Stay at B+

I don’t think it’s everyone’s go to physical Sweeper, and I feel the gap between it and the actual go to physical Sweeper in MMX, is much wider than the proposed A- to MMX’s S.

The utility is there as a semi-fast Steel-type offense, but at that point you aren’t getting many super effective hits, and I would rather have a way to score more of those. Kartana feels very good at what it does, but also very vanilla and while it does have a few sets, I don’t feel it’s 3 sets, especially Tinted Lens, makes it the ideal physical Sweeper, which makes it slightly less mainstream and more B+ niche than A- level tier.

Other A- Pokemon like Tar possess the good Dark-type coverage, and trap ability in Pursuit, and naturally strong Priority in a Sucker Punch, where it’s other stats and STAB push it beyond.

Kartana just feels like the the hitting-pretty-hard-for-a-neutral-hit mon. Plus it’s secondary typing largely holds it back beyond immunity to Spore and hitting Slowbro-Mega, as I doubt Kyogre-Primal would have stayed in anyways.
——————
Celesteela: Agree B - B+

I have been hearing a lot about it recently, and I feel that although Triage won’t be its best bet, the fact Rayquaza-Mega is gone will help it tank more Pokémon overall, and have 1 less V-Create to worry about if it wasn’t running Flash Fire/Prim Sea.

Since the rise is minimal, I agree. It has improved due to the post-ban Meta, and it deserves to be shown officially in its VR.
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Aerodactyl-Mega: Agreed B- to B

The Sandstream set allows it to really forgo AV Pokémon on your team if you need specific counter coverage, and exploit either Sand Rush allies, or Shore Up, which I think allows it to be a simultaneous independent check, while offering support. Now able to carry Life Orb and Dragon Ascent for MMX, and Venusaur-Mega (assuming it’s increase in Viability after the Ray-van), I can see the appeal.

Aerodactyl-Mega has always been niche, but now so more than ever; particularly this Gen, it’s niche has gotten a little bigger.
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Kyurem-W: Agree - B- to B

It’s interesting bc it’s less seen than Kyurem-B, but is noted as more effective. I appreciate the Dragon-typing resistances, but feel the Dragon and Ice STAB are redundant and counterproductive, but resistances to Water, and Electric are still beneficial enough to warrant a solid niche.

Still, it’s bulk as a wall breaker is pretty Ice-solid, and can shatter unprepared/weakened teams.
Seeing the need for Sticky Webs and Paralysis support worries me, but the good thing is that I feel it benefits, but doesn’t quite rely, on those tools to succeed. Afterall, if it’s a breaker for walls, most already have minimum Speed so it will be just fine on the speed front.

It’s the Ice-typing that you didn’t ask for, but also didn’t complain about.
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Cheers for Rhydon! - Agree UR to D (if there was a D-, I would suggest that).

I have always been a fan, especially on the Sandstream variant, but I always found the typing to be handled by the foe’s coverage moves.

Still, Grass moves are pretty much only on some Kartana and the odd Sceptile-Mega, while Rock, and Ground are nearly always physical which enables Fur Coat to remedy that. Plus, if it has Sandstream support on top of using Fur Coat, then Rhydon is very much a tough tank that won’t be crushed anytime soon.

I feel like it can work as a bottom tier niche because it could use Fur Coat while getting Sandstream from a teammate.

I don’t feel that having a Sunsteel weakness, and 4x weakness to Triage Giga Drain, and Kyogre’s STAB will allow it to thrive, but that doesn’t mean it can’t come in on the right moves and be a sturdy tank for specific scenarios that justify it being bottom-low D.
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Dialga: Disagree - Stay

Prankster Haze teams either fear it’s Tail Glow Set due to Doom Desire striking at the end of the turn, while Unaware teams can fear Lagginf Tail variants Core Enforcering their ability away.

Overall, a step above a niche in my eyes, I see it as a unique offensive mon, while still packing an awesome defensive utility to survive long enough for its Doom Desire to actually land.

I am conflicted though, as Doom Desire can be played around, and it’s AV is still only off of 100 SpD.
I feel it should stay, but it’s also too soon to really establish what role it continues to serve best. Stay for the typing, but not for the role...
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Swampert-Mega: Disagree - Stay

I feel like your justification for Groudon-Primal over is not really addressing the item and ability lock. Fur Coat could be used for greater Defense, while other abilities could add in offense/utility.

Overall, I do feel like it’s almost too difficult to find a role for it off the top of the team building, but when you are just finishing off your 5th Pokémon on the team, that’s when you realize that you need Swampert-Mega.

It may not be the first choice when you begin your team, but it could be adapted to be a good final slot choice and fill it adequately.

I feel D could be a fit since it is niche, but for some reason, I just keep getting the feeling it’s better than niche, because it’s balanced stats don’t pigeonhole it into specific roles.
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Empoleon: Agree D-UR

This is a type of Pokémon you have to build your team around, like Shedinja, in order to make it count. I too do believe it could be Unranked because it feels Moreno fun and intelligent to make it work, than just the best decision to pick it for your team.
In other words, you feel awesome because you are using an underdog, but is there almost always a better choice? Yes.

Niche is basically defined as filling a specific role better than others, but it is just rarely able to make that role count enough to justify using. I don’t see how or when Empoleon is the absolute best choice for your team. It’s not a Pokémon so bad you should never use, but it sort of always seems like you are not building your best team if you are building with Empoleon, as it’s the other teammates that grab the win, rather than Empoleon doing what no one else could (to fill a niche).
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Venusaur-Mega: Waiting for Evidence

As for now, I say I agree as it should be UR for lack of true niche
 
Honestly if you look at Penguin for a bit, Empoleon's role becomes very obvious.

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 98-116 (26.3 - 31.1%)
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 183-216 (49.1 - 58%)

+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%)
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 129-152 (34.6 - 40.8%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 111-130 (29.8 - 34.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 148-174 (39.7 - 46.7%)

+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 189-222 (50.8 - 59.6%) (this also means you can clutch a defog)
-1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 84-99 (22.5 - 26.6%)

Let's compare it to other mons with similar roles:
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously Emp takes Photon Geyser better than Pex does.
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%)
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 279-328 (76.6 - 90.1%)

+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%)
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 196-232 (53.8 - 63.7%) (that's enough for Xern to beat you)

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) (not a 2HKO but you're much more pressured by it, this means you cannot allow any chip)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 376-444 (106.8 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 472-556 (134 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 169-199 (48 - 56.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 226-266 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That may seem like a very specific set of calcs, but that's what a niche is.
So to reply to the other two posts. If you are looking for a team where Empoleon is the best choice for your team or where Empoleon fills a specific niche, you don't have to look further than Penguin.
This team was built with the objective of achieving high GXE (afaik), you wouldn't knowingly run a meme on a team like that. And given its success I don't know why its nomination in VR would be obviously a meme.

If anything the drop seems like more of a meme to me, for all the baseless VR noms this is one of the only where we have actual evidence of it filling a niche and working. It's litteraly the most succesful ladder team of the generation and you go "Lol still bad". That's the meme to me.
 

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
Honestly if you look at Penguin for a bit, Empoleon's role becomes very obvious.

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 98-116 (26.3 - 31.1%)
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 183-216 (49.1 - 58%)

+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%)
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 129-152 (34.6 - 40.8%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 111-130 (29.8 - 34.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 148-174 (39.7 - 46.7%)

+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 189-222 (50.8 - 59.6%) (this also means you can clutch a defog)
-1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 84-99 (22.5 - 26.6%)

Let's compare it to other mons with similar roles:
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously Emp takes Photon Geyser better than Pex does.
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%)
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 279-328 (76.6 - 90.1%)

+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%)
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 196-232 (53.8 - 63.7%) (that's enough for Xern to beat you)

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) (not a 2HKO but you're much more pressured by it, this means you cannot allow any chip)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 376-444 (106.8 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 472-556 (134 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 169-199 (48 - 56.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 226-266 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That may seem like a very specific set of calcs, but that's what a niche is.
So to reply to the other two posts. If you are looking for a team where Empoleon is the best choice for your team or where Empoleon fills a specific niche, you don't have to look further than Penguin.
This team was built with the objective of achieving high GXE (afaik), you wouldn't knowingly run a meme on a team like that. And given its success I don't know why its nomination in VR would be obviously a meme.

If anything the drop seems like more of a meme to me, for all the baseless VR noms this is one of the only where we have actual evidence of it filling a niche and working. It's litteraly the most succesful ladder team of the generation and you go "Lol still bad". That's the meme to me.
I see your point, but let’s do a comparison calc to your niche argument:
I will say that Ferrothorn are neutral to Earth Power off of Xerneas, while Empoleon takes:

252+ SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 156-184 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 232-274 (62.3 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And while I assume that Magic Bounce is for all 3 alternatives, so it fills the same niche as Empoleon, I still see Flash Fire Ferrothorn filling the same role, while also avoiding any potential Burns, or trap damage in the middle of the match (like if it switches in), maintaining an immunity to Spore, and if it’s packing Defog, could just clear the hazards from most Pokémon without fear of switching into Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web, or even Stealth Rock due to its resistance.

Further, a resistance to coverage in Bolt Strike provides it a useful soft check for Sheer Force MMY’s Moonblast/IBeam, BStrike, EPower, Psychic moveset.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 147-173 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Surviving slightly better than your calc of Registeel vs CB Steelworker Sunsteel Strike Kartana.

Since we are using Rocky Helmet, I wont throw in Leftovers for negating Stealth Rocks.

Overall, Xerneas would need to switch out of Flash Fire Ferrothorn.

While Kyogre-Primal can still 2HKO Ferrothorn with +1 Spout, it’ll still deal even less damage than VS Empoleon, but you would likely switch into Quiver Dance anyways as a go-to check, and then Topsy Turvey as they Spout, and Recover as they cannot break past:

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 167-197 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

Still, Prim Sea Scarf Kyogre-P can 2HKO both without fear of Topsy Turvey.

I know that without Magic Bounce, it’s Flash Fire Set wouldn’t bounce back Spore, or Hazards, but many Spore users carry Safety Goggles, or PHeal, to Improof. Other status moves come from Scald, or Nuzzle, and cannot be bounced back anyways.

Hazard setters can either pack Mold Breaker, or set up before Empoleon comes in, forcing you to remove hazards from both sides of the field with Defog, negating whatever hazards you bounced back on the foe’s side field.

This to me limits the advantage to vs Kartana, which if you switch to Relaxed becomes a barely 2HKO:

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

Again, assuming the same moveset and item, we won’t factor in Leftovers which would negate Stealth Rock and make it a 3HKO at best.

Even without Leftovers, it’s not the best chance of a 2HKO, and you could likely just Stall with Shore Up. Not a perfect check, but let’s not undersell it here.

So Tinted Lens still 2HKOs Ferrothorn, but regardless of ability, Power Whip still 1HKOs Empoleon; while Ferrothorn can 4x resist that.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 357-420 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Either ability won’t change the calc)

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 122-144 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So ultimately, you cannot just send in Empoleon until you know what move it will use. If Kartana packs V-Create, that deals the same damage as Power Whip, so now Empoleon has to watch out for 2 moves before it can try and wall Sunsteel... even on Tinted Lens.

As for Ferrothorn, with Flash Fire, you won’t be caught in random V-Create variants, nor fear Precipice Blades, from things like Diancie-Mega which is pretty rare among Steels.

I feel there is such a utility on Ferrothorn bc it can come in on both Physical and Special Moves, and has only 2 weaknesses, one of which and ability can remove outright.

I feel like Ferrothorn reduces the niche Empoleon provides by doing more, and oftentimes, much better.
 
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For the nth time you are nitpicking someone’s post with some random bs that makes 0 sense.

“FF Ferrothorn does a better job than MB Empoleon because a) it takes earth power better b) it can check sf mmy c) magic bounce isn’t actually that useful because bounced spore usually does nothing and hazard setters can run moldy or get it before emp comes in d) it doesn’t die to vcreate and blades e) checks kartana better”

Maybe if you looked at the team in whole we won’t have to deal with this nonsense.

A) Taking earth power is good but earth power xern is hard walled by shed on the team.

B) Checking sf mmy with ferro is a terrible idea because you die if you get any chip and there’s literally the best check to sf mmy on the team: shed.

C) I don’t know what you are on but it’s clear you never used shed teams so apparently you think shed non Offense teams are ok without a bouncer and rely on the 24 pp Defog vs 32 pp sr/spikes. Also spore is not a move in the current metagame so like ??? Also moldy hazards is like not common. Also like sure they get hazards up the first time but are you really dumb enough to let them get it up the second time like ???

D) I don’t know why you are using emp to take vcreate and blades when you literally have a zyg and a shed and an imp at the back.

E) The team has a prankster Zyg at the back to scout for the move because it finds so many opportunities to heal up, if kart clicks sunsteel go emp, if anything else stay in or go shed.

Finally, there is no move called Topsy Turvey, please for gods sake spell it Topsy-Turvy.

Next time before making posts like this consider reaching 90 gxe on ladder first and understand how others teams work, thanks.
 

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
For the nth time you are nitpicking someone’s post with some random bs that makes 0 sense.

“FF Ferrothorn does a better job than MB Empoleon because a) it takes earth power better b) it can check sf mmy c) magic bounce isn’t actually that useful because bounced spore usually does nothing and hazard setters can run moldy or get it before emp comes in d) it doesn’t die to vcreate and blades e) checks kartana better”

Maybe if you looked at the team in whole we won’t have to deal with this nonsense.

A) Taking earth power is good but earth power xern is hard walled by shed on the team.

B) Checking sf mmy with ferro is a terrible idea because you die if you get any chip and there’s literally the best check to sf mmy on the team: shed.

C) I don’t know what you are on but it’s clear you never used shed teams so apparently you think shed non Offense teams are ok without a bouncer and rely on the 24 pp Defog vs 32 pp sr/spikes. Also spore is not a move in the current metagame so like ??? Also moldy hazards is like not common. Also like sure they get hazards up the first time but are you really dumb enough to let them get it up the second time like ???

D) I don’t know why you are using emp to take vcreate and blades when you literally have a zyg and a shed and an imp at the back.

E) The team has a prankster Zyg at the back to scout for the move because it finds so many opportunities to heal up, if kart clicks sunsteel go emp, if anything else stay in or go shed.

Finally, there is no move called Topsy Turvey, please for gods sake spell it Topsy-Turvy.

Next time before making posts like this consider reaching 90 gxe on ladder first and understand how others teams work, thanks.
No I wasn’t nitpicking their post, my focus was to literally respond to their calculations.

A). I did look at the team as a whole, but let’s not forget that Earth Power Xerneas tend to pack Spikes, which deals with Shedinja. So if Empoleon predicts Spikes to Magic Bounce as it switches in, but ends up taking Earth Power then it doesn’t accomplish anything.

In the other case, if Empoleon comes in as a slow pivot, then it cannot Magic Bounce Spikes.

So Shedinja can come in on Earth Power, but not if Spikes are set, and if Empoleon has to come in on Earth Power, unable to Topsy if Xerneas doesn’t bother using set up moves (after scouting Empoleon’s moveset), then Empoleon has to just keep healing as it takes Earth Powers, which also has a chance to lower the SpD. If they switch to Shedinja, then Xerneas can Spikes on the turn they use Endeavor, preventing Shedinja from repeatedly switching back in, and forcing Empoleon to come in, which can allow a free switch to a Empoleon check like Sheer Force MMY.

Ultimately, you are assuming only Fire moves, which makes Flash Fire Ferrothorn more suitable. Even Ground moves are better handled by Ferrothorn, so Ferrothorn does better be Xerneas either way.
That’s not a nitpick, it’s just a fact.

B). Some SF MMY have Moongeist, so that negates Shedinja as a check. That’s a moveslot option people have been using for some time, and was written by the Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) who is the same person who made the Penguin team. Here is the official analysis for MMY he wrote, where he includes the Moongeist Beam on the Sheer Force set.

C. I never said you shouldn’t have a bouncer on a Shedinja team. And again, motherlove posted a single team that uses Empoleon, and that doesn’t mean that the only use of Empoleon is for a certain type of Shedinja team. Obviously, if you are handling many checks for Defensive Calcs, which was the majority of motherlove’s post, that is what I addressed, since I posted Calcs in response to that. Moldy hazards are not necessarily common, but that doesn’t mean they are not there, further regardless of Mold Breaker, I also made the point of hazards being set before Empoleon comes in (it cannot switch into everything, especially if you don’t know what might be carrying hazards early game).

I never suggested in any case that any opponent would let them set up a second time, did I? Afterall, Diancie-Mega might pack Spikes and Precipice Blades, so it’s not a safe switch-in for Empoleon. Slow pivoting Empoleon won’t work for Magic Bounce either, so that’s also not an option.

Empoleon cannot switch in safely to be the universal Magic Bouncer, so obviously, you can discover what uses hazards, but you cannot simply tell when they will predict your switch to Empoleon and use a super effective attack.

D). I wasn’t basing my entire post on that one team because I doubt people feel that Empoleon should be ranked D if it only suits one team ever. Clearly, the reason for a D rank is that it fits a niche on a team, and obviously being niche means a team archetype, but that doesn’t mean everyone is going to use Empoleon with only Shedinja, Zygarde, Imposter, etc.

So I am basing my points, I’ll say it again, on survivability due to the emphasis on Calcs in motherlove’s post, while still fulfilling much the same role. Moveset, item, etc.

E). Again, I don’t think people would want Empoleon to be D rank based on its effectiveness on 1 team. That’s why I believe SuperSkylake brought up removing it from D, because it is seen as too niche for its one role in one team:

“you can only use it as a switchin to utility moves, and even then, hazard setters can easily run something to get around it. For example, rocks pdon beats it, Nuzzle Xern beats it since you just wait for full para to hit during a crucial recover, ph fini and Kyogre beats it with Knock Off and Scald, Diancie's Boomburst 2hkos so it has a hard time switching in, etc. It barely avoids being 2hkoed by so many things that you lose most of the momentum you gain recovering and have to play very patiently to get the momentum back.”
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Next time you make a post Stop desperately trying to come off as pompous, it reduces your clout in being taken seriously.

Also, having already reached 90 GXE on ladder I guess that nullifies your point.

Being able to do that obviously means I do know how other teams work.
Anything else?
 
Could you post some replays?
Venusaur-Mega is pretty rarely seen by most anyone, and I think, similar to Empoleon’s justification to its original rise, I feel Venusaur needs some replays.
sure

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-967694480-27kq56ibre4jgk1b3ivemswr4co5b1tpw bad opponent but triage venu puts in a lot of work here, stops the imposter from sweeping and prevents diancie from getting anything done
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-969640668 counters nuzzle xern and wins lategame
these replays arent the best but hopefully they give u a decent picture
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 147-173 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This to me limits the advantage to vs Kartana, which if you switch to Relaxed becomes a barely 2HKO:

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
bro. you cant "switch to relaxed". no matter what nature you choose ferro gets sent directly to hell by either sf mmy or cb kart, both of which are really bad news.
A). I did look at the team as a whole, but let’s not forget that Earth Power Xerneas tend to pack Spikes, which deals with Shedinja. So if Empoleon predicts Spikes to Magic Bounce as it switches in, but ends up taking Earth Power then it doesn’t accomplish anything.

In the other case, if Empoleon comes in as a slow pivot, then it cannot Magic Bounce Spikes.
i faced earth power spikes xern several times with the team and never lost to it. in theory its threatening but in practice your calc assumes it gets a qd up for free, which is pretty inaccurate (xern cant set up on anything except for imposter and maybe your own xern if you dont want spikes traded).
If they switch to Shedinja, then Xerneas can Spikes on the turn they use Endeavor, preventing Shedinja from repeatedly switching back in, and forcing Empoleon to come in, which can allow a free switch to a Empoleon check like Sheer Force MMY.
yeah then xerneas is at 13% meaning your own xern is most likely able to take it out with spikes, sf mmy isnt doing much if imposter is healthy, and generally this trade is in your favor. it can still be bad under specific circumstances if you need a fast paced game and xern cant do that, but i think youre not assessing the value here.

another thing is that switching to shed then straight to penguin on the spike is also a really solid play. the risk/reward is great because if the xern player clicks an attack on the shed and takes endeavor, theyre put in an incredibly bad spot and potentially lose the game right there.
B). Some SF MMY have Moongeist, so that negates Shedinja as a check. That’s a moveslot option people have been using for some time, and was written by the Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) who is the same person who made the Penguin team. Here is the official analysis for MMY he wrote, where he includes the Moongeist Beam on the Sheer Force set.
with the decline of fc chansey, most sf mmy are unable to run moongeist because theyre imposter proofing with their own shed or a psychic like cress, something like that. moongeist sf mmy is in general incredibly rare and i didnt run into him at all
Empoleon cannot switch in safely to be the universal Magic Bouncer, so obviously, you can discover what uses hazards, but you cannot simply tell when they will predict your switch to Empoleon and use a super effective attack.
wow. it cant beat every single hazard setter in the metagame. this pokemon is clearly near unviable and has no niche in bh.

yea it might lose to diancie but it beats a bunch of other stuff that you cant really do with 1 mon. diancie can be checked sufficiently enough with imposter and shed anyway. (since they cant kill shed they have to go to a potentially passive ghost, even if its gar you can bring in zyg)
E). Again, I don’t think people would want Empoleon to be D rank based on its effectiveness on 1 team. That’s why I believe SuperSkylake brought up removing it from D, because it is seen as too niche for its one role in one team:

“you can only use it as a switchin to utility moves, and even then, hazard setters can easily run something to get around it. For example, rocks pdon beats it, Nuzzle Xern beats it since you just wait for full para to hit during a crucial recover, ph fini and Kyogre beats it with Knock Off and Scald, Diancie's Boomburst 2hkos so it has a hard time switching in, etc. It barely avoids being 2hkoed by so many things that you lose most of the momentum you gain recovering and have to play very patiently to get the momentum back.”
i dont know why he brought it up but all his points were pretty horrible, thats why i replied.

as for ff ferrothorn, i dont think it realistically fits on a shed team. its incredibly passive for something that doesnt even prevent hazards from going up, meaning it just lets diancie come in and set hazards every time then switch out to something that kills ferrothorn.
Also, having already reached 90 GXE on ladder I guess that nullifies your point.

Being able to do that obviously means I do know how other teams work.
this is wrong. ive reached 98 gxe and there are a lot of teams for which i cant explain the workings. gxe doesnt mean you automatically understand everything.

you keep posting all this stuff in theory but in practice empoleon has apparently been able to deal with all the threats sufficiently well on this team. its become a meme afterwards because of how unseen the pokemon is in bh but in the building process the intent was always to make the team as consistent as possible. using ferrothorn would obviously not work as well and i invite you to try it if you think otherwise.
 

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!
sure

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-967694480-27kq56ibre4jgk1b3ivemswr4co5b1tpw bad opponent but triage venu puts in a lot of work here, stops the imposter from sweeping and prevents diancie from getting anything done
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-969640668 counters nuzzle xern and wins lategame
these replays arent the best but hopefully they give u a decent picture


bro. you cant "switch to relaxed". no matter what nature you choose ferro gets sent directly to hell by either sf mmy or cb kart, both of which are really bad news.

i faced earth power spikes xern several times with the team and never lost to it. in theory its threatening but in practice your calc assumes it gets a qd up for free, which is pretty inaccurate (xern cant set up on anything except for imposter and maybe your own xern if you dont want spikes traded).

yeah then xerneas is at 13% meaning your own xern is most likely able to take it out with spikes, sf mmy isnt doing much if imposter is healthy, and generally this trade is in your favor. it can still be bad under specific circumstances if you need a fast paced game and xern cant do that, but i think youre not assessing the value here.

another thing is that switching to shed then straight to penguin on the spike is also a really solid play. the risk/reward is great because if the xern player clicks an attack on the shed and takes endeavor, theyre put in an incredibly bad spot and potentially lose the game right there.

with the decline of fc chansey, most sf mmy are unable to run moongeist because theyre imposter proofing with their own shed or a psychic like cress, something like that. moongeist sf mmy is in general incredibly rare and i didnt run into him at all

wow. it cant beat every single hazard setter in the metagame. this pokemon is clearly near unviable and has no niche in bh.

yea it might lose to diancie but it beats a bunch of other stuff that you cant really do with 1 mon. diancie can be checked sufficiently enough with imposter and shed anyway. (since they cant kill shed they have to go to a potentially passive ghost, even if its gar you can bring in zyg)

i dont know why he brought it up but all his points were pretty horrible, thats why i replied.

as for ff ferrothorn, i dont think it realistically fits on a shed team. its incredibly passive for something that doesnt even prevent hazards from going up, meaning it just lets diancie come in and set hazards every time then switch out to something that kills ferrothorn.

this is wrong. ive reached 98 gxe and there are a lot of teams for which i cant explain the workings. gxe doesnt mean you automatically understand everything.

you keep posting all this stuff in theory but in practice empoleon has apparently been able to deal with all the threats sufficiently well on this team. its become a meme afterwards because of how unseen the pokemon is in bh but in the building process the intent was always to make the team as consistent as possible. using ferrothorn would obviously not work as well and i invite you to try it if you think otherwise.
I never claimed to know everything on every team. I did, however manage to already accomplish what I was told I hadn’t done.
That was his basis for saying I don’t know anyways.
Please don’t pretend I said I know everything, I do however, have the knowledge of the metagame and the variances that occur during teambuilding, surprise coverage moves, and nuances as the metagame evolved for Gen 7.
That’s all I was addressing, and made clear in my quote, which you then made it seem like I am saying I know all, when my point was I know how different types of teams work in function.

I didn’t keep posting everything in theory. A calculation isn’t a theory, it’s a fact.

You posting about Venusaur having a niche without providing a single replay was, in fact, theory because there was no evidence you used it to great effect. In your current replays, you admit they are not ideal in evidence to show its niche, also leading us to believe that Venusaur-Mega might have theoretically been okay or even good, but your practice in using it against, in your own words: a bad opponent, and overall both replays “aren’t the best”.

I’m not trying to say you did a bad job, but you are telling me I Post theories only, but you yourself are not always bringing the evidence to showcase it’s not a theory of yours, until I prompted you, and even then replays you are not sure are all that great.
—————
A) Nature: It depends what is more important to cover, Empoleon cannot switch to relaxed because it won’t save it either way, but Ferrothorn can if it needs to, depending on what your team needs more coverage for.

B) Xerneas with Spikes: My calculations had a non-QDance and a QDance Boost. Motherlove’s has +1 for theirs, but I definitely included both boosted and unboosted. So I don’t understand why you said I included Calcs with boosts, when my unboosted calc itself is nearly a 2HKO...

Also, it’s not hard to set up on Empoleon, when Empoleon has to switch out from Earth Power manually, because it cannot use a slow U-Turn without taking a heavy hit.

Therefore, if Empoleon switches out, it fears switching back in due to Earth Power, so it’s situational at best to suggest it can handle Spikes and Earth Power... if you switch out when it uses Earth Power to Shedinja, that’s a great predict. If you switch out as they use Spikes, you just compromised Shedinja coming in later, and now if they predict Endeavor they can switch to Gengar as you slowly U-Turn to Empoleon, which allows their Gengar to Strike, whether it be the Specs Set, or otherwise with Secret Sword hitting off of Empoleon’s weaker Defense stat. If it’s the Specs Gengar, they can also pivot with Volt back to Xerneas, and put Empoleon into KO range for Earth Power. I’m not seeing the winning scenario here.

C). If Xerneas is at 13%, but effectively prevents Shedinja from being able to repeatedly switch in, puts Empoleon even closer to 2HKO range, and allows a free switch to a Ghost from Shedinja, then I think the momentum built is still in the Xerneas’s favor. After all, if you have Empoleon which is a pretty much safe heal turn for Xerneas, and will survive any single layer of Spikes anyways.

For SF MMY: “If Imposter is healthy”, well that’s another theory that Imposter doesn’t have much damage taken yet.

After a Bolt Strike, your team’s Scarf Blissey Imposter won’t be healthy:

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mewtwo-Mega-Y Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Blissey: 292-344 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
9148DC53-82A8-4186-A86A-1DB6270E944A.png

Since the assumption in the scenario for your Imposter throwing off my SF MMY was where Xerneas laid Spikes as I took Shedinja’s Endeavor, and then switched to SF MMY as you switched to Empoleon, and you switch to Imposter against my SF MMY. That would mean that Empoleon takes 12.5%, Imposter takes Spikes + Bolt Strike, (Shedinja cannot come in), and Empoleon can only come in if SF MMY switches out.

Then the Improof for your Imposter SF MMY would have to come in as Imposter tries to predict and switches in Empoleon. Empoleon then takes another 12.5% bringing it to 75% health, and has to ensure it can Defog while the Imposterproof to Imposter Blissey as SF MMY can threaten it. For example, if the Improof to SF MMY is my own Shedinja, then Empoleon has to then face Endeavor if it stays in to Defog, and then my Shedinja’s Extreme Speed will force you to switch out Empoleon at 1 HP to switch to your Scarf Imposter and block Extreme Speed, while scouting if my own Shedinja has Stealth Rocks like yours does.

The Imposter would have taken another 1 layer Spikes which means after the 40.8% Bolt Strike plus the two switch-ins adding up to 25% from Spikes, your Blissey is at 34.2% max remaining HP.

Now you have 2 Pokémon at 1 HP, a Blissey at about 1/3, and my Xerneas is at 12.5%.

Sounds like a pretty good trade-off in my favor.

D) Moongeist:

I’ll accept that because of the recent trend, and it makes sense for my Shedinja on the scenario above, since I would not need Geist on MMY for something with 2 forms of hazards (Stealth Rocks on Shedinja and Spikes on Xerneas) to handle Shedinja.

Still, I did bring it up bc Chessking said it like Moongeist is not used, and bc you wrote the analysis so it showcases that if he vouches for your team, sets, etc. that he also consider what you wrote for the official analysis on SF MMY.

All in all, fair point.

F). Magic Bounce point:

Sl42 please... that’s taking my point out of context.

Chess said:
“so apparently you think shed non Offense teams are ok without a bouncer and rely on the 24 pp Defog vs 32 pp sr/spikes. Also spore is not a move in the current metagame so like ??? Also moldy hazards is like not common. Also like sure they get hazards up the first time but are you really dumb enough to let them get it up the second time like ???”

Here is my full context reply on the matter:

“I never suggested in any case that any opponent would let them set up a second time, did I? Afterall, Diancie-Mega might pack Spikes and Precipice Blades, so it’s not a safe switch-in for Empoleon. Slow pivoting Empoleon won’t work for Magic Bounce either, so that’s also not an option.

Empoleon cannot switch in safely to be the universal Magic Bouncer, so obviously, you can discover what uses hazards, but you cannot simply tell when they will predict your switch to Empoleon and use a super effective attack.”

Chessking states that I must have meant that a team could set up their hazards twice, I never made that assertion.

Overall, he leads readers to assume Empoleon can block hazards up by the second attempt, but my focus is that offensive setters pack coverage moves for Steels, like Precipice Blades, and that is a deterrent for Empoleon coming in period.

Even SuperSkylake said that Diancie’s Boomburst 2HKOs Empoleon, so clearly it cannot switch into that resisted hit, let alone a super effective one on its lower Defense.

My point wasn’t to say Empoleon is bad bc it cannot handle all setters, as you attempted to oversimplify and imply, I state that you simply cannot assume it can always block Spikes bc some setters are already capable of keeping Empoleon in its Pokéball until they have switched out.

P.S. To your second point: What list of hazard setters does Empoleon check better than any other mon? It’s niche is obviously that, so let’s address which ones Empoleon can uniquely simultaneously check, that no one else can also blanket check.

G). Ferrothorn: Well, it’s moveset is as passive as Empoleon’s... since we assume the same moveset.

You are saying that Diancie-Mega can come in for free and Ferrothorn is a sitting duck, but it isn’t threatened by Diancie-Mega and can Defog away the Spikes as Diancie-Mega switches to a Ferrothorn check.

All of that while Empoleon would have to switch out completely to avoid being KOed by Precipice Blades, or even Boomburst. And hope that if it predicts Diancie-Mega will use Spikes that it doesn’t take a Boomburst or Precipice Blades instead.

Seems to me that Ferrothorn is the safer pick and can Defog regardless.
 
I told you what Empoleon's niche is, your answer was to replace it with a non-magic bounce mon that loses to kart and Kyurem, with the benefits of checking mons that are already checked by the rest of the team.

If that's the best you can do, no further discussion is needed, and Empoleon shall remain in D rank based on evidence of its success.
 
I never claimed to know everything on every team. I did, however manage to already accomplish what I was told I hadn’t done.
That was his basis for saying I don’t know anyways.
Please don’t pretend I said I know everything, I do however, have the knowledge of the metagame and the variances that occur during teambuilding, surprise coverage moves, and nuances as the metagame evolved for Gen 7.
That’s all I was addressing, and made clear in my quote, which you then made it seem like I am saying I know all, when my point was I know how different types of teams work in function.

I didn’t keep posting everything in theory. A calculation isn’t a theory, it’s a fact.

You posting about Venusaur having a niche without providing a single replay was, in fact, theory because there was no evidence you used it to great effect. In your current replays, you admit they are not ideal in evidence to show its niche, also leading us to believe that Venusaur-Mega might have theoretically been okay or even good, but your practice in using it against, in your own words: a bad opponent, and overall both replays “aren’t the best”.

I’m not trying to say you did a bad job, but you are telling me I Post theories only, but you yourself are not always bringing the evidence to showcase it’s not a theory of yours, until I prompted you, and even then replays you are not sure are all that great.
—————
A) Nature: It depends what is more important to cover, Empoleon cannot switch to relaxed because it won’t save it either way, but Ferrothorn can if it needs to, depending on what your team needs more coverage for.

B) Xerneas with Spikes: My calculations had a non-QDance and a QDance Boost. Motherlove’s has +1 for theirs, but I definitely included both boosted and unboosted. So I don’t understand why you said I included Calcs with boosts, when my unboosted calc itself is nearly a 2HKO...

Also, it’s not hard to set up on Empoleon, when Empoleon has to switch out from Earth Power manually, because it cannot use a slow U-Turn without taking a heavy hit.

Therefore, if Empoleon switches out, it fears switching back in due to Earth Power, so it’s situational at best to suggest it can handle Spikes and Earth Power... if you switch out when it uses Earth Power to Shedinja, that’s a great predict. If you switch out as they use Spikes, you just compromised Shedinja coming in later, and now if they predict Endeavor they can switch to Gengar as you slowly U-Turn to Empoleon, which allows their Gengar to Strike, whether it be the Specs Set, or otherwise with Secret Sword hitting off of Empoleon’s weaker Defense stat. If it’s the Specs Gengar, they can also pivot with Volt back to Xerneas, and put Empoleon into KO range for Earth Power. I’m not seeing the winning scenario here.

C). If Xerneas is at 13%, but effectively prevents Shedinja from being able to repeatedly switch in, puts Empoleon even closer to 2HKO range, and allows a free switch to a Ghost from Shedinja, then I think the momentum built is still in the Xerneas’s favor. After all, if you have Empoleon which is a pretty much safe heal turn for Xerneas, and will survive any single layer of Spikes anyways.

For SF MMY: “If Imposter is healthy”, well that’s another theory that Imposter doesn’t have much damage taken yet.

After a Bolt Strike, your team’s Scarf Blissey Imposter won’t be healthy:

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mewtwo-Mega-Y Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Blissey: 292-344 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
View attachment 193252

Since the assumption in the scenario for your Imposter throwing off my SF MMY was where Xerneas laid Spikes as I took Shedinja’s Endeavor, and then switched to SF MMY as you switched to Empoleon, and you switch to Imposter against my SF MMY. That would mean that Empoleon takes 12.5%, Imposter takes Spikes + Bolt Strike, (Shedinja cannot come in), and Empoleon can only come in if SF MMY switches out.

Then the Improof for your Imposter SF MMY would have to come in as Imposter tries to predict and switches in Empoleon. Empoleon then takes another 12.5% bringing it to 75% health, and has to ensure it can Defog while the Imposterproof to Imposter Blissey as SF MMY can threaten it. For example, if the Improof to SF MMY is my own Shedinja, then Empoleon has to then face Endeavor if it stays in to Defog, and then my Shedinja’s Extreme Speed will force you to switch out Empoleon at 1 HP to switch to your Scarf Imposter and block Extreme Speed, while scouting if my own Shedinja has Stealth Rocks like yours does.

The Imposter would have taken another 1 layer Spikes which means after the 40.8% Bolt Strike plus the two switch-ins adding up to 25% from Spikes, your Blissey is at 34.2% max remaining HP.

Now you have 2 Pokémon at 1 HP, a Blissey at about 1/3, and my Xerneas is at 12.5%.

Sounds like a pretty good trade-off in my favor.

D) Moongeist:

I’ll accept that because of the recent trend, and it makes sense for my Shedinja on the scenario above, since I would not need Geist on MMY for something with 2 forms of hazards (Stealth Rocks on Shedinja and Spikes on Xerneas) to handle Shedinja.

Still, I did bring it up bc Chessking said it like Moongeist is not used, and bc you wrote the analysis so it showcases that if he vouches for your team, sets, etc. that he also consider what you wrote for the official analysis on SF MMY.

All in all, fair point.

F). Magic Bounce point:

Sl42 please... that’s taking my point out of context.

Chess said:
“so apparently you think shed non Offense teams are ok without a bouncer and rely on the 24 pp Defog vs 32 pp sr/spikes. Also spore is not a move in the current metagame so like ??? Also moldy hazards is like not common. Also like sure they get hazards up the first time but are you really dumb enough to let them get it up the second time like ???”

Here is my full context reply on the matter:

“I never suggested in any case that any opponent would let them set up a second time, did I? Afterall, Diancie-Mega might pack Spikes and Precipice Blades, so it’s not a safe switch-in for Empoleon. Slow pivoting Empoleon won’t work for Magic Bounce either, so that’s also not an option.

Empoleon cannot switch in safely to be the universal Magic Bouncer, so obviously, you can discover what uses hazards, but you cannot simply tell when they will predict your switch to Empoleon and use a super effective attack.”

Chessking states that I must have meant that a team could set up their hazards twice, I never made that assertion.

Overall, he leads readers to assume Empoleon can block hazards up by the second attempt, but my focus is that offensive setters pack coverage moves for Steels, like Precipice Blades, and that is a deterrent for Empoleon coming in period.

Even SuperSkylake said that Diancie’s Boomburst 2HKOs Empoleon, so clearly it cannot switch into that resisted hit, let alone a super effective one on its lower Defense.

My point wasn’t to say Empoleon is bad bc it cannot handle all setters, as you attempted to oversimplify and imply, I state that you simply cannot assume it can always block Spikes bc some setters are already capable of keeping Empoleon in its Pokéball until they have switched out.

P.S. To your second point: What list of hazard setters does Empoleon check better than any other mon? It’s niche is obviously that, so let’s address which ones Empoleon can uniquely simultaneously check, that no one else can also blanket check.

G). Ferrothorn: Well, it’s moveset is as passive as Empoleon’s... since we assume the same moveset.

You are saying that Diancie-Mega can come in for free and Ferrothorn is a sitting duck, but it isn’t threatened by Diancie-Mega and can Defog away the Spikes as Diancie-Mega switches to a Ferrothorn check.

All of that while Empoleon would have to switch out completely to avoid being KOed by Precipice Blades, or even Boomburst. And hope that if it predicts Diancie-Mega will use Spikes that it doesn’t take a Boomburst or Precipice Blades instead.

Seems to me that Ferrothorn is the safer pick and can Defog regardless.
alright bro stop theory gaming this. if u really wanna test it just play sl42 with the teams.

also the "jeran" in ur replay isn't the real jeran, stop putting shame on his name
 

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