morogrim
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
C -> D, Disagree. While Amphy isn't the premier mon of the meta, it is the hardest hitting special Galv user we have
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BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources
- Thread starter E4 Flint
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K I fixed it for you. Hardest hitting galv user that isn't walled by dragons.
morogrim
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Xurkitree @ Choice Specs
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power / Secret Sword
- Volt Switch / Moongeist Beam / Photon Geyser
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 254-300 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 400-472 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 240-284 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Secret Sword is generally better for the matchup vs Dialga but Earth Power is better for Mega Steelix and Pdon while still being able to get the 2HKO on RegenVest Dialga most of the time)
The only dragon that "walls" specs galv Xurk is RegenVest Giratina, and even then it can't switch in if it has taken a bit of chip damage (especially if the Xurk runs MgB):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Giratina: 208-246 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Giratina: 190-224 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Giratina: 188-222 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Giratina: 170-202 (33.7 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That basically means that if rocks are up and the Giratina is already at around 85% hp when switching in, it's getting 2HKOed by Ice Beam (guaranteed if +Def, around 65% chance if +SpD). In the case of MgB, Giratina gets 2HKOed 100% of the time (+Def) if rocks are up and it switches in at 95% hp and has almost a 92% chance to get 2HKOed with a +SpD nature if it switches into rocks with 90% hp.
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Alright I guess I missed the part where I said Xurk was bad. I'm not discounting the mon. Yes, I misspoke saying that hardest hitting Galv user but I have clarified now. We all see that 173 > 165.
But if you read my post or that entire first sentence and weren't just trying to pop your head in and say something smart, you would see I mentioned that Amphy hits hard with Galv and doesn't need specs to do it. Yeah Xurk hits those dragons hard with specs boosted coverage but Amphy can stay in and not be choice locked and still do damage.
252+ SpA Draco Plate Ampharos-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 326-386 (64.6 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Draco Plate Ampharos-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 384-452 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (3HKO w/ Vest)
morogrim
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Going by your logic, I missed the part where Amp-Mega is also bad since it has the same VR as Xurk. Additionally, Galv Xurk almost always runs Specs, it's not a set that I went out of my way to introduce (in fact I'm pretty sure it's the most used Xurk set). This is a discussion topic which means everyone can participate and just because I disagree with what you said doesn't mean I "popped my head in," it just means that opinions that differ from yours exist, deal with it instead of being a baby about it. I also only posted those calcs because you claimed that Xurk is "walled by dragons", which is also clearly wrong as everyone can see.
Also as a side note, while Ampharos might be able to 1v1 Giratina and Zygarde-C without specs, it still has a worse matchup against Dialga and cannot break Dialga without specs (you could run Secret Sword but then the matchup vs Mega Steelix becomes much worse). Not to mention that Mega Ampharos is generally inferior to Xurk since bulky offensive mons such as Pdon can just switch in (even on a Judgment) and then threaten to OHKO on the next turn since Mega Ampharos barely outspeeds only the walls in the tier.
252+ SpA Ampharos-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 124-148 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 65% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Draco Plate Ampharos-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO
Also as a side note, while Ampharos might be able to 1v1 Giratina and Zygarde-C without specs, it still has a worse matchup against Dialga and cannot break Dialga without specs (you could run Secret Sword but then the matchup vs Mega Steelix becomes much worse). Not to mention that Mega Ampharos is generally inferior to Xurk since bulky offensive mons such as Pdon can just switch in (even on a Judgment) and then threaten to OHKO on the next turn since Mega Ampharos barely outspeeds only the walls in the tier.
252+ SpA Ampharos-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 124-148 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 65% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Draco Plate Ampharos-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO
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Both mons are bad in their own ways, which is why I think both are perfectly fine in C ranking, which is OK but not great. My claim was that Amphy could avoid being walled by dragons without having to use specs. I think that specs Xurk is a great set. I have no issue with opinions differing from my own. I don't see how I was being a baby about things, but I guess that's another instance of a difference of opinions.
But from this discussion, it looks like the electrics should all just be thrown in C. They aren't great but are something to look out for.
Edit: morogrim I see you included the calcs that I already mentioned in the original post. Says clearly that Amphy misses the 2HKO on Dialga.
But from this discussion, it looks like the electrics should all just be thrown in C. They aren't great but are something to look out for.
Edit: morogrim I see you included the calcs that I already mentioned in the original post. Says clearly that Amphy misses the 2HKO on Dialga.
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Zekrom is not C or D material. You all are looking at the reasons it was ranked, not the reasons it is currently ranked. Zekrom no longer prefers Galvanize - It didn't lose viability, it just swapped its main set. This set is also arguably better as even though it isn't Imposterproof, it still hits hard as hell and has a freaking epic STAB combination that OHKOs north of 85% of the metagame after a Shell Smash. It still 2HKOs a surprising amount of Pokemon. The only common checks are Prankster Registeel and Ferrothorn and even then Prankster Registeel gets destroyed by Electric Terrain support which is really good for Zekrom. It is far from being on the same level as Hoopa U, Deo A, Xurk, Lunala, MAmp and MAero. Those are the offensive Pokemon that are currently in C Rank and I would say Zekrom is offensively better than pretty much all of them. It's still better than KyuW and UNecro both of which have 0 bulk and one of which has an SR weakness while the other csnt even set up unless Contra because it's bait to pretty much every form of setup counterplay in the tier.
Zekrom is good for its ability to beat the classic Fantasy cores that people love. Ferrothorn being as good as it is hinders Zekrom but it doesn't deserve lowering to C, maybe B- at best. It has the space to run CC too since all you need are its stabs and setup and anything else is just filler. Most of the meta cannot contest Zekrom in that regard, and that definitely makes Zekrom a threatening Pokemon for Stall or Balance to face. I really don't think it should be lowered to C, of all things. It's just too good for that.
Zekrom is good for its ability to beat the classic Fantasy cores that people love. Ferrothorn being as good as it is hinders Zekrom but it doesn't deserve lowering to C, maybe B- at best. It has the space to run CC too since all you need are its stabs and setup and anything else is just filler. Most of the meta cannot contest Zekrom in that regard, and that definitely makes Zekrom a threatening Pokemon for Stall or Balance to face. I really don't think it should be lowered to C, of all things. It's just too good for that.
Zekrom is also a very excellent Choice Band user, as you can see in SSNL finals here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-775820114
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
One thing I noticed was that no one mentioned Electric Surge support for it. I know Storm Eagle mentioned Drought and even Sticky Webs support for Tinted Lens Blaziken, but I think Zekrom with Electric Terrain support would be very cool considering it prevents Sleep and boosts its moves.
People also mentioned Palkia with Swift Swim in the past, I think Zekrom could do the same with Surge Surger. The benefits? Grassy Terrain is never used, Psychic Terrain is banned, and Misty Terrain is not very common. So the Terrain will change less than weather. (Primordial Sea Celesteelia, PDon, Sandstream T-Tar, etc.)
I’m not advocating to add Surge Surger to its viability, but I definitely View it’s speed as an advantage over, say, Ampharos-Mega, because it can double and outspeed opponents if given the right support. (I.e. Shell Smash is something Ampharos couldn’t pull off).
TLDR- Before we think Zekrom lost its place, let’s consider what team support it can take advantage of that other Electrics can’t. Zekrom is also not as fragile as say Manectric-M, or Xurkitree. I just view it as at least 1 rank higher than the other electrics, so I don’t think it should be ranked lower than it currently is.
Stay B, not C.
We just have to see what it can do that we might have overlooked, afterall, a forgotten threat is still a threat- it’s the one you don’t prepare for.
P.S. loser2017, does your avatar mean you are biased?
*Mic Drop... exits room before it gets picked up*
Couple of replays:
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Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
The problem is that Tinted Lens Blaziken has less consistent walls like Flash Fire Aegislash, while you still have Zygarde-Complete as an issue without Adaptability or a Z-Crystal. Zygarde-Complete can have Misty Surge, weakening your STAB and forcing you out, Fur Coat which counters you unless you have Z-Draco Meteor, and Regenerator which can come in and attack then heal off the damage. Even Poison Heal is a problem. You also have a problem with Red Orb Groudon too which also runs Misty Surge.
Blaziken works because it's STABs make it ridiculously hard to wall. Zekrom works well but it needs to be wary of Ground types as they hard wall Zekrom. I don't know if Zekrom is as effective as Blaziken because of that. Regardless, while I think Electric Terrain Zekrom is definitely cool, I don't think it will be as effective as Blaziken is.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
If Tough Claws happens:
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zekrom Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 624-738 (98.1 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zekrom Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 567-671 (89.1 - 105.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Zekrom Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 567-671 (89.1 - 105.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 541-640 (85 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Zekrom Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 396-474 (78.5 - 94%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Without a Defensive Nature:
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 593-702 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Zekrom Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 436-520 (86.5 - 103.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Yes, I was surprised the lower damage % has the same chance as Frost Breathe vs Zygarde-Complete, I guess it’s due to it being a 2 Hit, Check the Calcs yourself:
)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Zekrom Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 292-348 (72.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Zekrom Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 396-474 (78.5 - 94%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Without a Defensive Nature:
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 593-702 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Zekrom Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 436-520 (86.5 - 103.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Yes, I was surprised the lower damage % has the same chance as Frost Breathe vs Zygarde-Complete, I guess it’s due to it being a 2 Hit, Check the Calcs yourself:
)252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Zekrom Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 292-348 (72.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Frost Breathe, Bonemerang, Bolt Strike, Dual Chop and perhaps Shell Smash to replace one of the moves.
Technician is like STAB Ice Beam, STAB Bonemerang, and double STAB Dual Chop (i.e. 2 Hit Outrage), and Electric Surge support would boost Bolt Strike, and... stop Spore! Like Protein without the type change.
Plus if they switch in Misty Surge, as you slow pivot- you can get your Electric Surger in, and Volt Switch to Zekrom with no fear of lowered Dragon moves. Frost Breathe also hurts Tina for a 2HKO (Poison Heal is still a 2HKO with Stealth Rocks, and Fur Coat and Misty Terrain mean nothing here)-
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 252-299 (50 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 252-299 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 252-299 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Lastly, Zekrom will outspeed them all as Zy and Tina lower their speed for Core Enforcer (to both avoid and use the effect). Groudons typically doesn’t use a + Speed Nature bc it will either boost it with Shell Smash/Shift Gear or do +Atk, or + Def.
Just sayin’ #pseudoSTAB-BoltBeamCoverage
P.S. Chomp-Mega can do this set better thanks to 170 Atk, a matching 120 SpA, STAB Bonemerang, 92 > 90 Speed, and resistance to Stealth Rock (and Immunity to Sandstream Damage)... except for STAB Bolt Strike, so if you plan to Tech Zekrom, ensure you use both STABs! Electric Surge amplifies (get it?) it’s niche, so consider it for team support.
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Addressing a few dodgy statements.
Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think Xurk prefers timid the vast majority of the time to outspeed neutral natured base 90, mainly Kyogre or Groudon.
Even then I think MMX would completely outclass Zekrom as a technician use due to its greater speed, power and stabs.
Zekrom probably strives in a mixed adapt set similar to Garchomp, for that reason, I think Garchomp itself gives it a lot of competition due to better stab (Ground vs Electric).
It's ridiculous to assume that regenvest Giratina would ever lose to Xurkitree, sure with chip and rocks on you can potentially get the Ice beam 2HKO, but Giratina just switches in everytime to scout what you lock on, obviously it's not gonna stay in on the 2HKO, it switches out and works that regen. If you get a ton of predicts right and keep rocks on consistently maybe you'll kill it eventually. But in like 99% of cases regenvest Giratina is a hard counter unless you carry pursuit in the back.
Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think Xurk prefers timid the vast majority of the time to outspeed neutral natured base 90, mainly Kyogre or Groudon.
Diancie is very niche due to its mediocre bulk, but due to its typing, it has seen use quite a few times. MAMP just used it in OMPL (he won) to imposterproof his own mixed adaptability Rayquaza with V-create (easily beats TTar and Regirock), Adrian used the PH set a few times on stall to deal with specs Rayquaza that runs fighting coverage (Secret Sword is quite common on specs quaza) I used it a few times to wall PH Regigigas with swords dance / Taunt / Dragon Tail / Facade, and another time to wall contrary Rayquaza with Draco Meteor / V-Create / Low Kick / Lovely Kiss (Audino is 2HKO by V-Create). So yeah, it has uses.This should probably stay in D. I wouldn't be sad if it dropped out though, because why use it?
This is pure theorymoning which is really not recommended in VR nom (yes I know I did it too but on a mon I use previously), but really it's incredibly redundant in general to run Ice + Dragon Coverage and your set suffers from a massive 4MSS because of it, on top of not having boosted Electric type moves which is part of the reason it's good (beats fairies + Steels with Stabs).
Even then I think MMX would completely outclass Zekrom as a technician use due to its greater speed, power and stabs.
Zekrom probably strives in a mixed adapt set similar to Garchomp, for that reason, I think Garchomp itself gives it a lot of competition due to better stab (Ground vs Electric).
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morogrim
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1. Giratina can't repeatedly come in vs Xurk when Regen only gets 34% hp back and Ice Beam/MgB does more than that. Yes, Giratina could potentially try to sneak in before Xurk gets to come back in, but that's where we get into the land of what ifs (the opponent is just as likely to predict such a move and punish the future Giratina switchins and so on).
2. Going by your logic it's also ridiculous to assume Giratina is always at 100% hp and is always in a position to switch in and scout. You can't have it both ways; we're either talking about theorycraft or a realistic situation. If we are talking about theorycraft, Giratina obviously walls Xurk (funnily enough you even quoted the part where I said it), but if we are talking about a realistic situation you can't just assume that "Giratina just switches in everytime." To prove that point, I mentioned some realistic scenarios that are actually pretty likely to occur where RegenVest Giratina won't be able to switch into the Xurk without getting 2HKOed. Again, let's say Tina is in range to get 2HKOed by Ice Beam/MgB, it can obviously switch in to scout but it cannot do this forever since once again the damage taken is greater than the damage recovered by Regen. In fact, if rocks are up, Giratina ends up losing hp even if it switches into a Boomburst.
@ Manectric: I was going to support a rise to D, a conservative move on my part. I feel it could perhaps qualify for C, but, I'll be conservative. I've spent more time with the thing since Gen VI then I really ought to. It's surprisingly versatile for the narrow niche of things it can run. That doesn't mean its versatile like we usually say versatile, but it's certainly not a one-set wonder.
I don't do really do tournaments or high laddering these days due to a lack of free time and scheduling (seriously, my only availability window means European players have to fight me at around their 4 A.M, which isn't fair). I mean, I wrote this post in bits since it ended up being larger than I planned. But, I did successfully field a Manectric against SL back in the BH Ultimate League and, IMO the meta hasn't changed a whole lot for Manectric, mostly favorably in what it did. Psychic Terrain and Primal Groudon bans and the mild rise in Electric Terrain usage are beneficial for it while the drop in usage of Celesteela and Tapu Fini are downsides. Misty Terrain rise in usage is a neutral, since it depends on if Manectric is getting E.Terrain support on that particular team or not.
First of all, sets: 90% or more of the time, you run Galvanize. It's its claim to fame. Manectric can run more niche options in Sheer Force (weaker STAB but stronger coverage), Electric Terrain (fast, evasive terrain setter/support), No Guard (fast STAB Zap Cannon and Blizzard), and Refrigerate (for when you really hate Zygarde since Manectric is pretty much a Zyggy magnet). Sets like Surge Surfer, Adaptability, Pixilate, Compound Eyes, and Primordial Sea might have some theoretical function, but I feel these are largely outclassed beyond very, very specific teams.
Minor note: Manectric is also one of the best Glare and Nuzzle users in the meta. It's very quick, so it can pop off a clutch Paralysis against most offensive threats. It also cannot be statused by its Imposter unless it like... gets hit Soak or something.
Second of all, compared to Xurk/Amph: You don't put Manectric in the same job description as these two. Xurk and Amph are wall breakers. Manectric hits less hard but is much faster, so you use it to pressure most other offensive Pokemon with either damage or status moves and then pivot out on anything that can threaten Manectric. You lay down some hazards at minimal so it can bypass the whole Sashsmash stuff and, if you can spare it, Sticky Webs or Tailwind (for mons like Ytwo and Deo-A) or Electric Terrain (FOR MOAR POWAH!). Manectric doesn't break walls. It has enough power to threaten some of the ones that rely on typing over raw stats, like Audino, but most walls you'll job bop them on the switch and then bail.
Third: support. Supporting Manectric is easy. It loves teaming with Garchomp, who pretty much just destroys most Pokemon that wall Manectric. If you use anyone else as an offensive partner, you need to stop and think. Others work, such as Red Orb Groudon and Kyurem-W, but Garchomp should be your goto. Manectric SHOULD NOT be the sole offensive mon on a team. It works best with friends. For defensive mons, it depends a little on your coverage, but a lot of walls work. Giratina, Swampert, Soundproof Slowbro, Registeel, Fur Coat Chansey, Ferrothorn, Zygarde, and so forth. Manectric appreciates hazard support at minimal. You should at least pack some rocks. More hazards, Sticky Web, Electric Terrain, Wish, Heal Bell, and Misty Terrain are appreciated, but optional.
Fourth: Galvanize sets. You're either running a variant of these three sets or you're running some combination of them. Others can potentially work, but these are the main ones.
Manectric-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Trick
- Ice Beam / Earth Power
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Earth Power
Hit hard, hit fast, pivot often for pretty solid chip damage if you got Volt Switch and their Ground-type is down or non-existent. Ice Beam for Zygarde, use on the switch or if its weak. It can wear down Giratina, but Giratina usually wins 1v1 if its healthy. Earth Power is largely for Primal Don, but it hits Steel-types well enough, particularly the stray Steelix. U-Turn does a heck of a lot less damage (and you'll want to keep your attack IVs and EVs if you run it), but its not blocked. Hazards + E.Terrain support turns this into a wall breaker. Modest can be used if, for some reason, you're not worried about Jolly Mewtwo X.
Manectric-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam / Earth Power
- Encore / Spore / Nuzzle / Glare
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Another slot 3
Offensive support Pokemon. Put opponents to sleep or paralyze them to make them easier to deal with. Encore anything harmless, which can make most walls lose momentum and prevent a slow U-Turn. Can even let Manectric win if they stubbornly sit in on like Defog or something. But if you're ballsy you can also Encore as predicted Shell Smash and proceed to laugh your butt off. Run this with some proper, dedicated offensive Pokemon, it's not going to clean house on its own.
Manectric-Mega @ Icium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power / support move
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
Manectric draws in Zygarde like nobody's business. This set one-shots most Zygardes with its Zmove. It also does ~66% to most Giratina, so an Ice Beam and some chip damage can leave them feeling safe to Recover, only for them to drop. Groundium Z eliminates Primal Groudon if that troubles your team, but it needs a small amount of chip damage to pull it off reliably. This is the most niche of the three, but being able to outright remove a major and common wall is pretty strong.
You could also like... Sashsmash a Galvanize Manectric, but I don't feel it's a great Smash user since it needs a number of things weakened or removed to sweep reliably in most cases. You could also run a Scarf to have Manectric perform the lost art of revenge KOing.
If Swampert ever becomes a problem, feel free to use Seed Flare / Energy Ball.
Fifth: Niche sets... I don't think these are VR worthy or anything, but they're definitely worth mentioning here.
Manectric-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / set-up / other coverage
The thing holding this back is Thunderbolt's a little weak for Manectric. The main draw is Sheer Force are the stronger coverage moves to help bypass its usual checks, primarily Giratina and Primal Groudon, while letting it switch moves. Due to the lack of direct STAB power, you'd really want to consider a set-up move, but you'll run into 4MSS since Manectric really appreciates pivoting.
Manectric-Mega @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Terrain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam / Shore Up
- Encore / Nuzzle / Glare
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
Run this if you want to run another hard hitting Electric type, a Surge Surfer, or a hard hitting Electric Surge Surfer. Manectric will definitely lack power, so it's main role is to get terrain set up and then flee for its life. Use its speed to spread status on targets or Encore other Pokemon if the opportunity presents itself.
Manectric-Mega @ Safety Goggles / Choice Specs / Z-Crystal
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Blizzard
- No guard moves or coverage
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Another slot 3
Probably the best niche set. Manectric's speed can let it pull off a clutch Zap Cannon on offensive Pokemon while Blizzard gives it respectable coverage damage to Giratina and Zygarde. Specs Blizzard will 2HKO non-Vest neutral natured Giratina and nails positive non-vest ones half the time, assuming no hazards or chip damage. Meanwhile, itemless Blizzard will 2HKO Zygarde unless it has a Vest. Zap Cannon doesn't provide the damage pressure that Boomburst does without an item boost, but gauranteed STAB paralysis is hard to switch into, especially on offensive teams where the speed loss can be completely crippling.
Manectric-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Trick
- Thunderbolt / Earth Power
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Earth Power
If you really, really hate Zygarde and Giratina, Manectric attracts them super easy. This set takes advantage of it. No Specs Boomburst will have a good chance of OHKOing Zygarde and will ensure it if hazards are up. It also boasts enough power to put pressure on Assault Vest Giratina, preventing it from healing more than it takes on every switch. Specs Boomburst will OHKO Giratina with some hazard support and is a guaranteed 2HKO on Vest variants. We get the added bonus of picking up OHKOs on Mega-Ray for free! Boomburst outdamages Thunderbolt, so it can be skipped for other coverage if needed. The main downside to this set though is it doesn't function much beyond a lure and a Trick user, but has the perk of not being able to misfire like the Icinium Galvanize sets.
Minor note: Manectric is also one of the best Glare and Nuzzle users in the meta. It's very quick, so it can pop off a clutch Paralysis against most offensive threats. It also cannot be statused by its Imposter unless it like... gets hit Soak or something.
Second of all, compared to Xurk/Amph: You don't put Manectric in the same job description as these two. Xurk and Amph are wall breakers. Manectric hits less hard but is much faster, so you use it to pressure most other offensive Pokemon with either damage or status moves and then pivot out on anything that can threaten Manectric. You lay down some hazards at minimal so it can bypass the whole Sashsmash stuff and, if you can spare it, Sticky Webs or Tailwind (for mons like Ytwo and Deo-A) or Electric Terrain (FOR MOAR POWAH!). Manectric doesn't break walls. It has enough power to threaten some of the ones that rely on typing over raw stats, like Audino, but most walls you'll job bop them on the switch and then bail.
Third: support. Supporting Manectric is easy. It loves teaming with Garchomp, who pretty much just destroys most Pokemon that wall Manectric. If you use anyone else as an offensive partner, you need to stop and think. Others work, such as Red Orb Groudon and Kyurem-W, but Garchomp should be your goto. Manectric SHOULD NOT be the sole offensive mon on a team. It works best with friends. For defensive mons, it depends a little on your coverage, but a lot of walls work. Giratina, Swampert, Soundproof Slowbro, Registeel, Fur Coat Chansey, Ferrothorn, Zygarde, and so forth. Manectric appreciates hazard support at minimal. You should at least pack some rocks. More hazards, Sticky Web, Electric Terrain, Wish, Heal Bell, and Misty Terrain are appreciated, but optional.
Fourth: Galvanize sets. You're either running a variant of these three sets or you're running some combination of them. Others can potentially work, but these are the main ones.
Manectric-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Trick
- Ice Beam / Earth Power
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Earth Power
Hit hard, hit fast, pivot often for pretty solid chip damage if you got Volt Switch and their Ground-type is down or non-existent. Ice Beam for Zygarde, use on the switch or if its weak. It can wear down Giratina, but Giratina usually wins 1v1 if its healthy. Earth Power is largely for Primal Don, but it hits Steel-types well enough, particularly the stray Steelix. U-Turn does a heck of a lot less damage (and you'll want to keep your attack IVs and EVs if you run it), but its not blocked. Hazards + E.Terrain support turns this into a wall breaker. Modest can be used if, for some reason, you're not worried about Jolly Mewtwo X.
Manectric-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam / Earth Power
- Encore / Spore / Nuzzle / Glare
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Another slot 3
Offensive support Pokemon. Put opponents to sleep or paralyze them to make them easier to deal with. Encore anything harmless, which can make most walls lose momentum and prevent a slow U-Turn. Can even let Manectric win if they stubbornly sit in on like Defog or something. But if you're ballsy you can also Encore as predicted Shell Smash and proceed to laugh your butt off. Run this with some proper, dedicated offensive Pokemon, it's not going to clean house on its own.
Manectric-Mega @ Icium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power / support move
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
Manectric draws in Zygarde like nobody's business. This set one-shots most Zygardes with its Zmove. It also does ~66% to most Giratina, so an Ice Beam and some chip damage can leave them feeling safe to Recover, only for them to drop. Groundium Z eliminates Primal Groudon if that troubles your team, but it needs a small amount of chip damage to pull it off reliably. This is the most niche of the three, but being able to outright remove a major and common wall is pretty strong.
You could also like... Sashsmash a Galvanize Manectric, but I don't feel it's a great Smash user since it needs a number of things weakened or removed to sweep reliably in most cases. You could also run a Scarf to have Manectric perform the lost art of revenge KOing.
If Swampert ever becomes a problem, feel free to use Seed Flare / Energy Ball.
Fifth: Niche sets... I don't think these are VR worthy or anything, but they're definitely worth mentioning here.
Manectric-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / set-up / other coverage
The thing holding this back is Thunderbolt's a little weak for Manectric. The main draw is Sheer Force are the stronger coverage moves to help bypass its usual checks, primarily Giratina and Primal Groudon, while letting it switch moves. Due to the lack of direct STAB power, you'd really want to consider a set-up move, but you'll run into 4MSS since Manectric really appreciates pivoting.
Manectric-Mega @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Terrain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam / Shore Up
- Encore / Nuzzle / Glare
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
Run this if you want to run another hard hitting Electric type, a Surge Surfer, or a hard hitting Electric Surge Surfer. Manectric will definitely lack power, so it's main role is to get terrain set up and then flee for its life. Use its speed to spread status on targets or Encore other Pokemon if the opportunity presents itself.
Manectric-Mega @ Safety Goggles / Choice Specs / Z-Crystal
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Blizzard
- No guard moves or coverage
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Another slot 3
Probably the best niche set. Manectric's speed can let it pull off a clutch Zap Cannon on offensive Pokemon while Blizzard gives it respectable coverage damage to Giratina and Zygarde. Specs Blizzard will 2HKO non-Vest neutral natured Giratina and nails positive non-vest ones half the time, assuming no hazards or chip damage. Meanwhile, itemless Blizzard will 2HKO Zygarde unless it has a Vest. Zap Cannon doesn't provide the damage pressure that Boomburst does without an item boost, but gauranteed STAB paralysis is hard to switch into, especially on offensive teams where the speed loss can be completely crippling.
Manectric-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Trick
- Thunderbolt / Earth Power
- Volt Switch / U-Turn / Earth Power
If you really, really hate Zygarde and Giratina, Manectric attracts them super easy. This set takes advantage of it. No Specs Boomburst will have a good chance of OHKOing Zygarde and will ensure it if hazards are up. It also boasts enough power to put pressure on Assault Vest Giratina, preventing it from healing more than it takes on every switch. Specs Boomburst will OHKO Giratina with some hazard support and is a guaranteed 2HKO on Vest variants. We get the added bonus of picking up OHKOs on Mega-Ray for free! Boomburst outdamages Thunderbolt, so it can be skipped for other coverage if needed. The main downside to this set though is it doesn't function much beyond a lure and a Trick user, but has the perk of not being able to misfire like the Icinium Galvanize sets.
I don't do really do tournaments or high laddering these days due to a lack of free time and scheduling (seriously, my only availability window means European players have to fight me at around their 4 A.M, which isn't fair). I mean, I wrote this post in bits since it ended up being larger than I planned. But, I did successfully field a Manectric against SL back in the BH Ultimate League and, IMO the meta hasn't changed a whole lot for Manectric, mostly favorably in what it did. Psychic Terrain and Primal Groudon bans and the mild rise in Electric Terrain usage are beneficial for it while the drop in usage of Celesteela and Tapu Fini are downsides. Misty Terrain rise in usage is a neutral, since it depends on if Manectric is getting E.Terrain support on that particular team or not.
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Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
1. I definitely agree in testing a specific set before suggesting adding it to the VR list. My posts were simply what Zekrom overall could do. I am nominating the Pokemon to stay at B, but I am not nominating the Technician set to VR. As Frost Breath and Dual Chop can be redundant, either 1 could be replaced for Shell Smash, while the +2 Atk or +2 SpA will allow it to cover whatever the other move would. For example vs Giratina (the main reason to use Dual Chop over Frost Breathe), Shell Smash pushes Frost Breath vs Giratina into 1HKO territory, and thus unless Giratina uses Prankster Haze, it is defeated. If it is Prankster Haze, it would have to Shore Up each turn to not get 2HKOed, so in either case, Tina is forced out of play (or has to use Destiny Bond).
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 504-595 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 458-541 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Technician Zekrom Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 458-541 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
3. MMX doesn't outclass Zekrom because it would use Storm Throw, Photon Geyser, Frost Breath, and Bonemerang (possibly replacing 1 move with Spectral Thief, V-Create, or Shell Smash). Thus, without STAB Dual Chop for hitting Giratina, Giratina isn't 1HKOed by MMX:
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 278-328 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 304-359 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 304-359 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Palkia on a critical hit: 304-359 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia on a critical hit: 252-299 (60.5 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal on a critical hit: 313-370 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For Fur Coat Yveltal-
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal on a critical hit: 317-374 (69.5 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (I assume Fur Coat would have a +SpD nature)
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 242-285 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 273-321 (68.5 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowbro-Mega: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowbro-Mega: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia on a critical hit: 252-299 (60.5 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal on a critical hit: 313-370 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For Fur Coat Yveltal-
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal on a critical hit: 317-374 (69.5 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (I assume Fur Coat would have a +SpD nature)
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 242-285 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 273-321 (68.5 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowbro-Mega: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowbro-Mega: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252- Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 524-618 (125.9 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (even if Giratina had a -Atk nature)
TLDR: Yes, MMX and Garchomp have higher base Speed and Atk, but they don't do what Zekrom does to the key defensive Pokemon listed above, and that is what keeps Zekrom from being outclassed. *I'm sorry its long, I was trying to shorten it, but found it hard to not completely cut out the points made.
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you're correct in saying that regenvest giratina can't just completely shut down xurkitree every time it comes in. but still, in practice xurk is doing very little in these games without pursuit trapping/lots of hazards.
this is because of choice specs locking it into one move. even if you predict the regenvest dialga and secret sword it on the switch, you're caught between clicking secret sword again for the ko and doubling out on whatever fighting resist they have. if you get this wrong, you lose momentum, which helps dialga get more healthy again to switch in more. the same situation applies with regenvest giratina and ice beam.
that being said, there are legitimate arguments for xurkitree's viability. lots of teams don't carry a ground type, and regenvest giratina is relatively uncommon. additionally, it can handle the attacks of max speed giratina (which is used much more than min speed) a lot better than ampharos.
morogrim
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I really don't get the point you're trying to make. Are you saying the match is a 1v6 or are you saying that the person using Xurk is not giving this C rank mon the support it needs from the team? Also, as already shown, you don't need lots of hazards to make it work; having rocks up alone gets the job done.
You also are not taking into account that all Xurk needs to do is get that Secret Sword off on Dialga to make the game that much easier to end. Xurk's job when using specs isn't to sweep, it's just to wallbreak to make the lategame sweep easier. Additionally, there is a reason why Volt Switch (or other pivoting moves) are so common on choiced mons.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
What about using Prankster Pikachu: Spore, Substitute, Transform, Infestation/Anchor Shot? I could see it as an alternative.
This would be similar to Imposter but instead of relying on Speed ties, you would use it late game (after scouting for items/using Knock Off) to Spore the foe, Sub, Trap, and Transform. It would also be a counter-measure to Shell Smashers, Contrary users, etc. like MMX that think they can outrun your team. This is important as well if they have Spore, or Moldy Moves that break your Unaware/Prankster Hazers. I know it seems strange, but it would be another way to utilize Pikachu's Light Ball and Transform shenanigans.
Plus, it is Imposterproof (Substitute, and Imposter can't copy once you are post-Transformed). Infestation is for Shedinja after using Spore.
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The prevalence of counters to prankster stuff+transform makes it a meme.
Bounce, PH, Coma, Grass, Dark, DQM, Misty, the rare but useable ElecSurge.
Not to mention how one is assuming the opponent is an idiot and wont switch out, especially after the sub. Also one is relying on a sac to bring it in and the opponent definitely wont find a non imp pikachu suspicious. Just stick with Glare and Nuzzle spam support.
Will be on mobile for a long time so wont say anymore
Bounce, PH, Coma, Grass, Dark, DQM, Misty, the rare but useable ElecSurge.
Not to mention how one is assuming the opponent is an idiot and wont switch out, especially after the sub. Also one is relying on a sac to bring it in and the opponent definitely wont find a non imp pikachu suspicious. Just stick with Glare and Nuzzle spam support.
Will be on mobile for a long time so wont say anymore
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
Yes, but many Pokemon with or without Prankster use Spore, (many Imposterproof with Spore + Safety Goggles), otherwise Spore wouldn't be used, and therefore Safety Goggles wouldn't be used. In regards to Dark types, Ash-Greninja, Gyarados, and Tyranitar are pretty rare. The only Dark commonly seen is Yveltal. So, the Infestation is to prevent switching out, as you Spore, then Infestation on the switch in and then Spore again. You can also Sub on the switch from Spore if you want to be safe.
Again, mid-late game after you understand your opponent's moves.
Misty blocks Glare, Nuzzle as well, Magic Bounce/Electric types are not afraid of Glare, and Ground/Electric types aren't impacted by Nuzzle's paralysis. And having to slow down multiple sweepers of your opponents team is harder than just trapping and Sleeping 1 target.
You don't need a sacrifice. Everyone uses slow Pivots, such as Registeel, Audino-M, etc. for slow U-Turning into something safely. Trust me, if Shedinja is used at 1 HP, (having to ensure Hazards are clear, Moldy Moves, etc.), then I am sure Pikachu can be slow pivoted in.
At least this way you have a Pokemon that can stop a sweep thanks to Prankster Spore, KO Shedinja (adding Infestation after you Spore), and set up a Sub to get a free Attack in after it Transforms. Pikachu isn't perfect, but this might save it from completely being discarded.
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It's that time again, feel like the last couple months have sped past.
Attached is the BHC's proposed VR changes for the month of July, which we're doing slightly earlier this time. in response to some recent queries and trends. Some key changes include: after a very long internal debate, the proposed removal of the meta rank and bringing Imposter down into S rank (treating the ability as a mon with the mons as the 3 more viable users, which will be the only exception), a refactoring of D rank to be a stricter in terms of usage and viability when comparing some mons with the others within that rank, and a potential decision on M2y (spoiler: it's S still)
Thanks to those who supplied new samples. Since I haven't been able to update them yet, I'm still accepting more. I would appreciate teams with limited use of Illusion. As always follow the right format for the same.
Speaking of, the Illusion suspect is still ongoing and you have around 5 days left to get reqs. Please follow the instructions therein e.g. how to post your reqs and which type of alt to use. If you have any kind of questions or would like to talk to me about the same, feel free to pm me as I know there have been some issues with not laddering on the right alt and already achieving reqs.
A full summary of recent changes to some other resources will be posted following the usual day or two of discussion about our changes in this thread.
Don't forget to check out the OMPL semifinal! MAMP has also begun a BH Banhappy tournament which has opened signups here! (Due to time constraints, this tour will be taking the place of an official BH Summer Seasonal)
Attached is the BHC's proposed VR changes for the month of July, which we're doing slightly earlier this time. in response to some recent queries and trends. Some key changes include: after a very long internal debate, the proposed removal of the meta rank and bringing Imposter down into S rank (treating the ability as a mon with the mons as the 3 more viable users, which will be the only exception), a refactoring of D rank to be a stricter in terms of usage and viability when comparing some mons with the others within that rank, and a potential decision on M2y (spoiler: it's S still)
Thanks to those who supplied new samples. Since I haven't been able to update them yet, I'm still accepting more. I would appreciate teams with limited use of Illusion. As always follow the right format for the same.
Speaking of, the Illusion suspect is still ongoing and you have around 5 days left to get reqs. Please follow the instructions therein e.g. how to post your reqs and which type of alt to use. If you have any kind of questions or would like to talk to me about the same, feel free to pm me as I know there have been some issues with not laddering on the right alt and already achieving reqs.
A full summary of recent changes to some other resources will be posted following the usual day or two of discussion about our changes in this thread.
Don't forget to check out the OMPL semifinal! MAMP has also begun a BH Banhappy tournament which has opened signups here! (Due to time constraints, this tour will be taking the place of an official BH Summer Seasonal)
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my thoughts on the new VR nomination slate
Meta rank > S rank: abstain
swampert-mega b- > c: agree, its bulk just not that good. Furcoat has a unique niche due to its typing but it doesn't wal enough things. I don't consider it on most of my teams now, because Slowbro-mega, Zygarde-c, can wall the stuff better. It can barely avoid the 2hKO from MMX close combat!
Ampharos mega c> d: agree, it is just not strong or fast enough to ohko the entire meta even with Tail Glow. Gimmicky copycat sets are fun to mess with, but they're still gimmicks. Triage sets are pitifully weak, since they rely on parabolic charge for damage, which only has 50 bp.
Venusaur-mega c > d: yes, Ferrothorn does everything it does but better. Flash fire steel: yep. Slow pivot: Yep. Regigigas check: yep. Unaware wall; yep.
Lati-mega d > ur: agree. Outclassed by necro-ultra, and they both have crappy stab types
Nihilego d > ur: abstain
Ho-oh: d > c: It's better than the junk in D. Still, You either have to run magic guard which gives it almost 0 defensive utility even though its best stat is its spd. Or have heavy entry hazard control because it can't counter stuff at 50%. Offensive life orb sets are not that great either with the myriad of stronger wallbreakers out there.
charizard-mega-y ur > d: abstain
Groudon ur > d: yes, I've used it to good effect as a fur coat wall. it's probably outclassed by another mon that wasn't mentioned on the slate though, which i'll get to soon.
Marowac-alola ur > d: definitely. Tinted lens sets eat stuff alive!
Regirock ur > d: abstain
Pigeot-mega d > ur: yes
blazicon-mega b- > b: nah, being walled by Giratina no matter what coverage you run is pretty limiting.
Darm-z d > c: disagree, it is fine where it is in d as a wall with a distinct niche. It's not even the most reliable check to MMX which can 2hKO it with banded Spectral Thief without rocks up.
Zekrom b->c: Agree. It need team support to function at its best, but can do very well with that support and if the matchup is good. There isn't a lot of room to predict wrongly when using choice sets, and it doesn't get more than 1 chance to set up if using setup sets though. Plus if the matchup is bad, and the opponent has even a hitn of an idea about preserving wincons, they'll make sure they keep their Mega Steelix or whatever is walling Zekrom healthy if at all possible.
Pikachu d > ur: it's mostly a gimmick, but still mention it when talking about Imposter.
Crescelia d > c: disagree, it's fine where it is in d. Lugia is pretty much better, with better bulk which means it can come in even when rocks are up, and though it has more weaknesses, they can be covered easily with 1 or 2 more mons.
Greninja-ash d > ur: It may have use on Rain teams as a Tinted Lens user which can still outspeed MMX with a jolly nature and OHKO it in the rain. Other than that, it's limited to Shell Smash sets, which literally any mon with remotely okay offensive stats can do; Sheer Force sets that are outclassed and outsped by MMY; and gimmicky King's Rock Beat Up flinch sets which are more annoying than actually effective.
Blacephalon d > ur: abstain, never used it, and only fought it like twice ever. It did pretty badly there.
Mega Beedrill d > ur: disagree. If anything it should be going up. Both Tough Claws and Tinted Lens are really good, helping tremendously with getting chip on things you need to kill. Tinted Lens U-turn does 20-25% to Registeel which is nothing to sneeze at when Specs mega Rayquaza deals 44% minimum to AV Registeel. It is literally in 2hKO range after one of those U-turns. Tough Claws is a nice increaser of damage overall, KOing Mewtwo-mega-Y after Stealth Rock with u-Turn.
Diancie d > ur: Abstain. It is nice to improof some things thanks to its unique typing and bulk.
Mega Heracross D > ur: disagree
Mega Lucario d > ur: Agree. It does have a unique niche as a Shell Smash + Reversal user with STAB on Sunsteel. lopunny-mega might better for this though since it has Spectral Thief, and I've had annoying problems with it unless I had an Aegislash on my team, since Registeel dies to 200 BP Reversal and is 2hKOed by Close Combat if the opponent opts for that instead.
Lugia d > ur: disagree. It's bulky enough to improof stuff
Muk-alola d > ur: yes, it is very easily 2hKOed by high rolls and stepping on hazards. I've used a Muk-Alolas as setup fodder more times than i can count, even though it was Unaware.
Resheram d > ur: abstain
Scizor-mega D > ur: agree, people use it with Flash Fire thinking it's good but it isn't. There are plenty of other better Flash Fire walls out there, including Ferrothorn on the defensive side, and Necrozma-DM for Offensive teams.
Stakataka d > ur: yes, even the prankster set is not all that great, though it can definitely be annoying to deal with.
MMY s > a+: disagree, this mon is just way too good.
And now for some of my own noms
Rhydon ur > d: This thing is an amazing Fur Coat wall with Eviolite Some calcs without a +def nature are below. It's even better with one, but in case you want to give it some extra mixed bulk I put it as +spd.
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Topsy Turvy / Ice Hammer
- Shore Up
- Entrainment
Still it must be afraid of knock off, and Sunsteel Strike which will just eat right through Fur Coat's boosts. Unaware Zygarde-C can do a lot of the same defensive duties and is overall more mixed bulky, but it's still a cool choice and is a lot more physically bulky than Zygarde-C is when hit with neutral moves. Groudon is about as good at Fur Coat walling as Rhydon, because even though its defense isn't nearly as high, it doesn't fear Knock Off or Sunsteel nearly as much, and has no 4x weaknesses.
Necrozma-ultra b- > c: crappy stab combo, easy to RK.
Lunala c > at least d but probably ur: way too weak to Spectral Thief and Knock Off. Spectral thief is so ubiquidous that it's infeasible to just "remove all of your opponent's Lunala checks before setting it up". Normalize sets are pretty much outclassed by Mega Gengar because it's way faster and hits harder. Extra physical bulk and a psychic neutrality just isn't enough to save it from the garbage heap. Show me some quality replays of Lunala doing something cool, and I am willing to be convinced.
Steelix-mega c > b-: Don't forget that 230 Defense stat. That lets it pivot out of an MMX close combat from full without dying, and since Close Combat only has 8 PP to begin with it's actually a feasible strategy to exhaust its PP with good predictions. Mega Steelix lets you get one of those predictions wrong. Its soundproof set is about on par with Slowbro-mega's as well as it has enough physical bulk to take Precipice Blades (though maybe not the strongest V-Creates), and stab Anchor Shot coming off 125 Attack is an easy KO on Mega Diancie. I really like its Regenvest set as well.
Mega Loppony ur > d: A minimum defense Dazzling Sash set with Shell Smash, Reversal, Power Trip, and Sunsteel/Photon can easily sweep teams that don't have or lost their checks to Fighting. The minimum Defense evs ensure that you get your Sash activated, and can kill your imposter with a 200 BP Reversal. The combo of fighting and dark coverage is super hard to wall without Zygarde-C which is admittedly the sturdiest counter to these Fighting-Types in the game currently, or Prankster users. Add to that you can't Spectral Thief the boosts, and Prankster Registeel still drops to a 200 BP Reversal at +0, and it can really be a pain for unprepared teams.
Meta rank > S rank: abstain
swampert-mega b- > c: agree, its bulk just not that good. Furcoat has a unique niche due to its typing but it doesn't wal enough things. I don't consider it on most of my teams now, because Slowbro-mega, Zygarde-c, can wall the stuff better. It can barely avoid the 2hKO from MMX close combat!
Ampharos mega c> d: agree, it is just not strong or fast enough to ohko the entire meta even with Tail Glow. Gimmicky copycat sets are fun to mess with, but they're still gimmicks. Triage sets are pitifully weak, since they rely on parabolic charge for damage, which only has 50 bp.
Venusaur-mega c > d: yes, Ferrothorn does everything it does but better. Flash fire steel: yep. Slow pivot: Yep. Regigigas check: yep. Unaware wall; yep.
Lati-mega d > ur: agree. Outclassed by necro-ultra, and they both have crappy stab types
Nihilego d > ur: abstain
Ho-oh: d > c: It's better than the junk in D. Still, You either have to run magic guard which gives it almost 0 defensive utility even though its best stat is its spd. Or have heavy entry hazard control because it can't counter stuff at 50%. Offensive life orb sets are not that great either with the myriad of stronger wallbreakers out there.
charizard-mega-y ur > d: abstain
Groudon ur > d: yes, I've used it to good effect as a fur coat wall. it's probably outclassed by another mon that wasn't mentioned on the slate though, which i'll get to soon.
Marowac-alola ur > d: definitely. Tinted lens sets eat stuff alive!
Regirock ur > d: abstain
Pigeot-mega d > ur: yes
blazicon-mega b- > b: nah, being walled by Giratina no matter what coverage you run is pretty limiting.
Darm-z d > c: disagree, it is fine where it is in d as a wall with a distinct niche. It's not even the most reliable check to MMX which can 2hKO it with banded Spectral Thief without rocks up.
Zekrom b->c: Agree. It need team support to function at its best, but can do very well with that support and if the matchup is good. There isn't a lot of room to predict wrongly when using choice sets, and it doesn't get more than 1 chance to set up if using setup sets though. Plus if the matchup is bad, and the opponent has even a hitn of an idea about preserving wincons, they'll make sure they keep their Mega Steelix or whatever is walling Zekrom healthy if at all possible.
Pikachu d > ur: it's mostly a gimmick, but still mention it when talking about Imposter.
Crescelia d > c: disagree, it's fine where it is in d. Lugia is pretty much better, with better bulk which means it can come in even when rocks are up, and though it has more weaknesses, they can be covered easily with 1 or 2 more mons.
Greninja-ash d > ur: It may have use on Rain teams as a Tinted Lens user which can still outspeed MMX with a jolly nature and OHKO it in the rain. Other than that, it's limited to Shell Smash sets, which literally any mon with remotely okay offensive stats can do; Sheer Force sets that are outclassed and outsped by MMY; and gimmicky King's Rock Beat Up flinch sets which are more annoying than actually effective.
Blacephalon d > ur: abstain, never used it, and only fought it like twice ever. It did pretty badly there.
Mega Beedrill d > ur: disagree. If anything it should be going up. Both Tough Claws and Tinted Lens are really good, helping tremendously with getting chip on things you need to kill. Tinted Lens U-turn does 20-25% to Registeel which is nothing to sneeze at when Specs mega Rayquaza deals 44% minimum to AV Registeel. It is literally in 2hKO range after one of those U-turns. Tough Claws is a nice increaser of damage overall, KOing Mewtwo-mega-Y after Stealth Rock with u-Turn.
Diancie d > ur: Abstain. It is nice to improof some things thanks to its unique typing and bulk.
Mega Heracross D > ur: disagree
Mega Lucario d > ur: Agree. It does have a unique niche as a Shell Smash + Reversal user with STAB on Sunsteel. lopunny-mega might better for this though since it has Spectral Thief, and I've had annoying problems with it unless I had an Aegislash on my team, since Registeel dies to 200 BP Reversal and is 2hKOed by Close Combat if the opponent opts for that instead.
Lugia d > ur: disagree. It's bulky enough to improof stuff
Muk-alola d > ur: yes, it is very easily 2hKOed by high rolls and stepping on hazards. I've used a Muk-Alolas as setup fodder more times than i can count, even though it was Unaware.
Resheram d > ur: abstain
Scizor-mega D > ur: agree, people use it with Flash Fire thinking it's good but it isn't. There are plenty of other better Flash Fire walls out there, including Ferrothorn on the defensive side, and Necrozma-DM for Offensive teams.
Stakataka d > ur: yes, even the prankster set is not all that great, though it can definitely be annoying to deal with.
MMY s > a+: disagree, this mon is just way too good.
And now for some of my own noms
Rhydon ur > d: This thing is an amazing Fur Coat wall with Eviolite Some calcs without a +def nature are below. It's even better with one, but in case you want to give it some extra mixed bulk I put it as +spd.
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Topsy Turvy / Ice Hammer
- Shore Up
- Entrainment
Rhydon can always beat Regigigas:
After a knock off (which does less than 10%) and 1 shift gear with Rhydon asleep, the best it can do is:
+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Rhydon: 76-90 (18.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
which gives you plenty of time to wake up and topsy turvy it. With maximum speed, you outspeed a -2 Regigigas and can Entrainment it the next turn before it can Spore you (you have 179 speed, and even if it runs adamant it will only have 164 speed.
If you are facing one of the rare Avalanche variants, it probably won't be running Knock Off. You take it easily:
252+ Atk Regigigas Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 78-94 (18.8 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Rhydon can check Choice banded mega Garchomp if it runs Ice Hammer
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 224-268 (54.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's the very worst case scenario. If you decide to run Ice hammer:
252 Atk Rhydon Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Garchomp-Mega: 316-372 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you can kill it after a little bit of chip.
You don't want to switch this carelessly into the mixed adapt set though, as z Draco Meteor will utterly kill you.
Rhydon can beat Shift Gear Primal Groudon without special moves:
+1 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
Rhydon can take a single Close Combat from MMX and retaliate back with Thousand Waves dealing over 50% of its health:
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 248-292 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Rhydon Thousand Waves vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 175-207 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After a knock off (which does less than 10%) and 1 shift gear with Rhydon asleep, the best it can do is:
+1 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Rhydon: 76-90 (18.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
which gives you plenty of time to wake up and topsy turvy it. With maximum speed, you outspeed a -2 Regigigas and can Entrainment it the next turn before it can Spore you (you have 179 speed, and even if it runs adamant it will only have 164 speed.
If you are facing one of the rare Avalanche variants, it probably won't be running Knock Off. You take it easily:
252+ Atk Regigigas Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 78-94 (18.8 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Rhydon can check Choice banded mega Garchomp if it runs Ice Hammer
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 224-268 (54.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's the very worst case scenario. If you decide to run Ice hammer:
252 Atk Rhydon Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Garchomp-Mega: 316-372 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you can kill it after a little bit of chip.
You don't want to switch this carelessly into the mixed adapt set though, as z Draco Meteor will utterly kill you.
Rhydon can beat Shift Gear Primal Groudon without special moves:
+1 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
Rhydon can take a single Close Combat from MMX and retaliate back with Thousand Waves dealing over 50% of its health:
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Fur Coat Rhydon: 248-292 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Rhydon Thousand Waves vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 175-207 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Still it must be afraid of knock off, and Sunsteel Strike which will just eat right through Fur Coat's boosts. Unaware Zygarde-C can do a lot of the same defensive duties and is overall more mixed bulky, but it's still a cool choice and is a lot more physically bulky than Zygarde-C is when hit with neutral moves. Groudon is about as good at Fur Coat walling as Rhydon, because even though its defense isn't nearly as high, it doesn't fear Knock Off or Sunsteel nearly as much, and has no 4x weaknesses.
Necrozma-ultra b- > c: crappy stab combo, easy to RK.
Lunala c > at least d but probably ur: way too weak to Spectral Thief and Knock Off. Spectral thief is so ubiquidous that it's infeasible to just "remove all of your opponent's Lunala checks before setting it up". Normalize sets are pretty much outclassed by Mega Gengar because it's way faster and hits harder. Extra physical bulk and a psychic neutrality just isn't enough to save it from the garbage heap. Show me some quality replays of Lunala doing something cool, and I am willing to be convinced.
Steelix-mega c > b-: Don't forget that 230 Defense stat. That lets it pivot out of an MMX close combat from full without dying, and since Close Combat only has 8 PP to begin with it's actually a feasible strategy to exhaust its PP with good predictions. Mega Steelix lets you get one of those predictions wrong. Its soundproof set is about on par with Slowbro-mega's as well as it has enough physical bulk to take Precipice Blades (though maybe not the strongest V-Creates), and stab Anchor Shot coming off 125 Attack is an easy KO on Mega Diancie. I really like its Regenvest set as well.
Mega Loppony ur > d: A minimum defense Dazzling Sash set with Shell Smash, Reversal, Power Trip, and Sunsteel/Photon can easily sweep teams that don't have or lost their checks to Fighting. The minimum Defense evs ensure that you get your Sash activated, and can kill your imposter with a 200 BP Reversal. The combo of fighting and dark coverage is super hard to wall without Zygarde-C which is admittedly the sturdiest counter to these Fighting-Types in the game currently, or Prankster users. Add to that you can't Spectral Thief the boosts, and Prankster Registeel still drops to a 200 BP Reversal at +0, and it can really be a pain for unprepared teams.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
While I disagree with keeping Darmanitan-Zen at only D, and firmly believe C is where it belongs, it’s in part, due to the Fur Coat Ability. This allows it to check MMY without Moongeist Beam/Earth Power (I.e. Sheer Force), and take on Diancie-M’s Pixelate, Kyurem-B’s Refrigerate, and even take hits from Precipice Blades Primal-Groudon, and Shell Smash Power Trip Unburden Yveltal:
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Yveltal Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z: 320-380 (77.2 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Yveltal Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z: 320-380 (77.2 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Here is a replay of my defeating ChessKing, with no losses on my team, in part, thanks to the Fur Coat Darm-Z tanking hits from Imposter, Giratina, and more. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-783820622
As for Rhydon, I think Fur Coat is great with Sandstream support, but I feel like it will often miss Sandstorm's SpD boost and Shore Up bonus, without having a teammate. I would definetely say, if you suggest Rhydon from UR -> D, then Sandstream should at least be slashed. It's quite literally one of the best counters to -Ate Rayquaza with V-Create, with Sandstorm providing its SpD ample survivability vs Boomburst. Slowbro-M with Soundproof might be close competition, however, as it can safely switch into Boomburst, and doesn't fear Knock Off as much.
Edit: I support pushing Rhydon from UR -> D for the reasons mentioned above.
I also support E4 Flint ’s suggestion of moving Maro-A from UR -> D. While I do prefer Prankster as the ability of choice for Shadow Force / V-Create + Copycat Shenanigans, which is a fun concept - I know first hand in facing E4 Flint ‘s Set with Tinted Lens is seriously only hindered by its speed. Further, i appreciate his acknowledgement that he was inspired by me to use it. Overall, I think Maro-A does well with its Unique coverage moves and resistances, and has the Attack to turn coverage moves into nukes.
Darmanitan-Z: D -> C with the added mention of Fur Coat, it can do things that most walls cannot, regarding resistances.
Meloetta UR -> D THE alternative to Muk-A to avoid adding more Ground weak teammates (obligated Steel Type, popular sweepers: *Diancie-M, PDon, M-Tar, or M-Gengar). They resist Bug and Dark, so they cover weaknesses better than Muk-A would. She is an Unaware and RegenVest Check, who has higher SpD.
Manectric-M UR -> D While Niche for sure, I understand Rumors has built a team that manages to make effective use of it in a way that Thundurus, Amphy-M, Zekrom, and Xurkitree do not surpass. Check his RMT, in his signature, for evidence.
I wouldn’t put it higher than D, ever, but I would definitely keep it there, as a niche for Electric Terrain/Galvanize Teams.
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Agree with most vote results on the spreadsheet.
Abstain on Zekrom and Mega-Cross since dropping them feels iffy, but not dropping feels iffy too.
Abstain on Blaceph, Stakataka, and Pidgeot. I have no experience with them barring bad low ladder teams. Although them not showing up might be reason enough to drop?
Disagree on Ash-Ninja, Mega-Bee, Mega-Luke, and Reshiram. None are great in the current meta, but they all have unique and distinct properties that give them a niche and they'll wreck your face if you're not prepared for them.
Reiterating I nominated Mega-Manectric from UR to D. This post explains about everything I'd say on that matter: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...entral-resources.3593766/page-19#post-7856230 You gotta build around it a little but, seriously, try it out sometime, it could surprise you.Just stop trying to wall break with it like Xurk and Amphy.
Abstain on Zekrom and Mega-Cross since dropping them feels iffy, but not dropping feels iffy too.
Abstain on Blaceph, Stakataka, and Pidgeot. I have no experience with them barring bad low ladder teams. Although them not showing up might be reason enough to drop?
Disagree on Ash-Ninja, Mega-Bee, Mega-Luke, and Reshiram. None are great in the current meta, but they all have unique and distinct properties that give them a niche and they'll wreck your face if you're not prepared for them.
Reiterating I nominated Mega-Manectric from UR to D. This post explains about everything I'd say on that matter: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...entral-resources.3593766/page-19#post-7856230 You gotta build around it a little but, seriously, try it out sometime, it could surprise you.
sure
https://pokepast.es/485936c02405c8da
description - The Mega Mewtwo X set is a self-Imposterproof offensive Stealth Rock setter and Regigigas set. The gameplan after you wisp Imposter is to hard tina every time, since Icicle Crash does 0 and they're not getting Rocks up. Dialga is a blanket -ate check, MGar check, MMY check, Kyogre check and your form of hazard removal. It is imposterproofed by Primal Groudon. Giratina is a secondary Regigigas check, Primal Groudon check etc. Imposter is good glue, Scarf to beat forms of setup since this team lacks Prankster. Most mons dont set up for free on anything, though. Primal Groudon is for Imposterproofing Dialga, Mega Diancie and checking Kyogre and Xerneas. It's overall being a good offensive threat. It can self-Improof but tina will improof in a pinch. The Mega Diancie set is the centerpiece to this team, and it 2HKOs almost in the tier. Specs Boomburst is spammable as it 2HKOs Registeel after minimal chip which should be a testament to how powerful MDiancie's Specs Boomburst is.
Huge s/o to Quantum Tesseract motherlove and fsk for help on this. I don't have an ELO peak or anything but Tzop used this for reqs and it did well, other people have tried it too and liked it.