BH Balanced Hackmons Resources Thread

[Chessking345]

Mid-OMPL noms. Also going to be in some detail covering my thoughts in these noms. You can find my general meta observations in this post on the main thread.

Rises:
(Imposter) S -> S+
Imposter has shown its strength and it is quite a bit above any other mon in terms of viability. This can be an unnecessary mon considering nothing else is S- but this is a S+ imo.
A- -> A
Flutter Mane has two primary sets being Flare Boost and Pixilate, and these have very different checks (good thing Flare Boost reveals itself so you don't need to predict which set it is). These sets are also very very good, with Flare Boost counterplay generally being either Scales Zacian or SpD pivot into revenge-killer, which is unreliable considering Tera, and Pixilate just boasting absurd damage output. Flutter Mane also has seen good popularity in OMPL in 3rd usage and a >50% winrate.
(Imposter Cloak) A- -> S-, A+ at worse
I think that Cloak Imposter is like A+ min by virtue of being an Imposter that has benefits over Eviolite. Cloak blocks only 4 main moves - Mortal Spin, Salt Cure, Nuzzle, Spirit Shackle, but these moves are so common on defensive mons as ways to punish Imposter (especially Mortal Spin for bulkier teams) that Cloak Imposter has a notably better matchup into fatter teams than Eviolite Imposter. This makes Cloak Imposter a strong consideration for teams that want a better/shore up a weaker matchup against bulkier teams.
B -> B+
Iron Bundle has two main niches: outspeeding and revenge-killing Flutter Mane and Koraidon, and having a STAB that is rarely resisted on common Ice Scales mons. This makes Iron Bundle a very potent wallbreaker due to Boomburst outpping Recovery and the amount of opportunities Iron Bundle can get to click Boomburst. It still suffers from middling damage output without Tera and vulnerability to hazards.
B -> A-
Dondozo is the best check to Koraidon due to massive physical bulk and a resistance to Flip Turn. Its passivity is also less of an issue when it has one of the slowest pivots, notably underspeeding Ting-Lu. Due to not requiring a lot of moves other than Flip Turn and recovery, it can also fit techs to check other threats like Groudon.

B- -> B
Fireceus has seen some good uses in OMPL with DesoLand having some neat improofing capabilities while the strong Fire STAB in general making it a great Mortal Spinner. Has some serious issues against some walls like Imposter, Dondozo, and Eternatus though.

B- -> B
Arceus-Steel has seen some use as a SpD with good speed tier and typing against the -ate mons. It notably has SE STAB against Flutter Mane while having innate immunity to Mortal Spin and Toxic.
B- -> B+/A-/A
Rayquaza has shown its absurd potential with next to no good answers, defensive or offensive. It also provides a lot of utility with its extremely powerful Espeed and good amount of opportunities to switch in with the solid Flying-type.
C -> B-
I think unlike the stuff in C Gholdengo is a lot more consistent. Provides a lot of team utility through improofing and potentially soft checking some stuff while having great offensive potential.
D -> C
Call me biased but Kyogre is not on the same tier as the stuff in D and is not all theorymon either.
(Imposter - Plate) D -> C
Imposter that has the slightest niche is better than the stuff in D.
D -> C
Has seen some use and success due to its amazing typing, decent bulk, and offensive potential and speed tier.
D -> C
Meloetta has seen use as a SpD sponge that has a decent matchup into Flare Boost Flutter. Its Psychic STAB is also surprisingly useful against threats like Poison-types. Future Sight is always a possibility too.
D -> C
Toxapex is very slow and has a decent typing, and with usage should probably be lifted out of the D.

Drops:

A+ -> A
There is less reason to use Ghostceus since the Slaking ban as Koraidon is spamming Dragon STAB. It also has some very iffy matchups such as into base Chansey, Scales Zacian, and Meloetta. It is still very good but I don't think its on the same tier as the (only) best physical wallbreaker in the tier that has like no switch-ins outside of getting predicts right.
A -> A-
Groudon kind of just does nothing, which can to a degree be reflected through its winrate. As a FC mon it fails to check Koraidon due to Flip Turn weakness. Offensively people are always preparing for it and there are matchups where it just does nothing. Meanwhile it lets the biggest threats in: Koraidon Flips, every other special attacker threatens OHKO, Ray is immune to Ground.
B+ -> B
Chansey is generally prepped for by any special attacker. It is also immensely passive which can easily be taken advantage of by utility mons or physical/mixed breakers. Also comes with the opportunity cost of not being able to use the best mon in the tier, Eviolite Imposter.
B+ -> ? (B or lower)
Wildcard mon, has seen 1 total use in OMPL. Very fishy mon because you can still get the right matchup and just win but otherwise the mon straight up does nothing. Generally just worth using something else.

B -> B-
Generally not as useful anymore because Water isn't that threatening offensively. Dondozo also does a lot of the roles while not consuming the Arc slot. Sure you hit Groudon very hard but Dozo just flip turns anyways.
B -> B-
Enamorus has seen very little use, likely due to its weakness to Stone Axe and Stealth Rock, combined with its general neutral typing and lowish bulk makes it hard to actually bring it in, especially with its tendency to not straight up OHKO a lot of threats.
C -> D
Slaking is gone, there is still probably niche in using Origin over say Etern or Altered.
C -> UR
Its very hard to utilize Pikachu because you need to fish for the right tera type on Pikachu. In case you don't know, Light Ball is the same boost as Choice item/Flame Orb ability + Tera. This means teams are already prepping for that damage level with their defensive walls, making Pikachu far less threatening. Also if you paraed the opposing threat you are already in great shape.
C -> D/UR
These mons are basically unviable offensively and outclassed.

D -> UR
The issue here is that its weak to Rocks, but you also want a way to deal with poison from Groudon. Flying STAB also doesn't hit a whole lot from 120 offenses.

D -> UR
Slaking is banned.
D -> UR
See: Palafin, Ursaluna

D -> UR
Just use another type, Grass is horrible.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

To help with the changes brought about by the new meta, we have a Viability List of the returning mons and a Role Compendium for what we expect them to run. I've also put some sample sets on the setpedia, re-done the Speed tiers, and archived the old VR (for Tera meta). Do note that anything (especially compendium) is subject to change as the tier develops and things get banned, although i'll do my best to keep on top of them.

 

[vesp]

Why is M-beedrill ranked so high? Is it just stab u turn or am I missing something?

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Why is M-beedrill ranked so high? Is it just stab u turn or am I missing something?

That's basically it. Mega Beedrill (and Pheromosa) have basically one niche, being U-turn bots that outrun the scariest things in the meta, like the Mega Mewtwos and Mega Gengar; Pheromosa has higher Speed and a better matchup into Primordial Sea Steel-types thanks to STAB Close Combat, while Beedrill is stronger and STAB Gunk Shot chunks a lot of physical walls for heavy damage (on top of a poison chance).

 

[Chessking345]

VR Update!​

A quick update to adjust some Pokemon after seeing them in action.

Rises
Miraidon | Mid -> High
Miraidon has proven to be one of the more splashable glue mons in the meta, with its defensive sets providing incredible utility. Both Fur Coat and Ice Scales are useful abilities, and Miraidon's typing, decent bulk, and excellent speed tier enable it to check a vast set of threatening mons such as Blacephalon, Kartana, DesoLand users, and being a decent midground against the Mewtwos. STAB Thunder Cage is also a powerful chipping tool, and traps Imposter when combined Cloak or Draco Judgment.

Yveltal | Mid -> High
Despite the departure of Mega Gengar, Yveltal remains as a strong defensive presence. It is the most viable Dark-type in the meta, a highly useful trait against Lumina Crash, and the useful Flying-typing provides a neutrality to Fighting and resistance to Grass, letting it be an effective check to Ghost-types like Arceus-Ghost and Lunala while taking reduced damage from Chloroblast. It also can use a powerful Sucker Punch to threaten the fast Psychics. Rocks and Electric weakness can be annoying, but the former can be mitigated on non-RegenVest sets by Heavy-Duty Boots. Apart from SpD roles, Fur Coat Yveltal has also seen some use as a decent physical wall, handling certain Mixed MMX sets reasonably and checking No Retreat Ghostceus better.

Blacephalon | Low -> Mid
Blacephalon is one of the most threatening wallbreakers with its amazing STABs and mixed offensive stats. It can opt to run Choice Scarf over Life Orb, being one of the few viable Scarf users and acting as a very potent speed control option while still keeping a high offensive presence, 2HKOing Primal Kyogre after minor chip.

Steelix-Mega | Low -> Mid
Mega Steelix acts as a reasonable mixed wall as a RegenVest user and very slow pivot. Having the coveted Steel-typing while also blocking Volt Switches is very useful and its enormous physical bulk prevents it from being picked off by coverage such as High Jump Kick and Precipice Blades. These traits make it a good pivot and midground against threats such as Mega Diancie.

Audino-Mega | UR -> Low
Mega Audino has seen some use as a SpD that offers a Ghost-immunity and good mixed defenses with a typing that is hard to exploit.

Ferrothorn | UR -> Low
Ferrothorn is the slowest pivot in the meta and enjoys a relative lack of Fire-type coverage. Compared to Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn offers more SpD, a slower pivot, and a Water resist, at the cost of a relatively common Fighting-weakness and Bug STAB.

Drops
Gengar-Mega | Top -> Shadow Realm
Lmao.

Dialga-Origin | High -> Mid
Dialga-Origin is awkward as it is a Steel-type that does not resist Fairy, and its bulk leaves it insufficient as a reliable check to Specs Diancie, especially with RegenVest. Meanwhile it also has a weakness to common coverage moves like HJK and PBlades, making Ice Scales a less attractive choice.

Dondozo | High -> Mid
Dondozo has been largely insufficient as a Def when many physical wallbreakers are running mixed coverage or are Kartana. When compared to Mega Slowbro the latter has better offensive presence through high SpA and possible Future Sight, as well as a Psychic typing that can allow it to forgo Fur Coat while still checking MMX and Blaziken reasonably well.

Ting-Lu | High -> Mid
Ting-Lu is a middling SpD when its typing has weaknesses to Fairy, Fighting, Grass, and even Water. Gengar being banned does not help it either, as that was one of its stronger niches.

Altaria-Mega | Mid -> Low
Mega Altaria's typing is compromised by an average bulk and weakness to Gigaton Hammer, particularly against Kartana, the most threatening pure physical wallbreaker.

Gyarados-Mega | Mid -> Low
Mega Gyarados is compromised by common weaknesses, similar to Ting-Lu, but also has an Electric weakness against moves like Volt Switch and Volt Tackle.

Calyrex-Ice | Low -> UR
No one has really used Calyrex-I. Even as a "bulky Psychic" type the Ice typing does no favours. For an Ice-type breaker use the Kyurems (which also aren't very good).

Nihilego | Low -> UR
Nihilego's depressing physical defense and 4x ground weakness means there are better options to use as Fairy-resists.

Tyranitar-Mega | Low -> UR
Mega Tyranitar is riddled with common weaknesses to just about everything, meaning it cannot hope to be an effective SpD, and even worse every physical wallbreaker threatens it with super effective STAB.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

We've updated the VR! Note that some of this stuff is obviously subject to change because early meta and all, but most of it should be accurate.

 

[Gimmicky]

C
Greninja-Ash (Tough Claws, Sniper)

Nomming Primordial Sea to Greninja-Ash's ability pool. Greninja-Ash is the second fastest and second strongest (relevant) Water-type in the tier right now, with a speed tier that surpasses Mega Mewtwo-X, all Arceus formes, Eternatus, and Adamant/Modest Koraidon and Miraidon. This makes it a solid option for a Water Spout spammer, being able to boost its Water Spout to absurd levels of power with Rain and Choice Specs/Life Orb. What separates Greninja-Ash from an option like Iron Bundle is STAB Fiery Wrath, giving Greninja-Ash a decently powerful Secondary STAB that also can cheese your opponent with Flinch, allowing it to potentially muscle past its checks. Not a great Pokemon in the tier by any means, but definitely a viable set

Smogdex Set

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Steam Eruption / Surf
- Fiery Wrath
- Volt Switch / Flip Turn / Electro Drift

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus in Heavy Rain: 254-299 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus-Fairy in Heavy Rain: 216-255 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Zacian in Heavy Rain: 223-263 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 433-510 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Water in Heavy Rain: 216-255 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

 

[Tea Guzzler]

ok i sort of was copy/pasting from the sheet initially bc was trying to fix up my garden, here's a couple takes on current vr:

protean should be this thing's main ability. basically impossible to prep for and predicting right is basically always a KO, plus the spammability of prot glance/astral is comical. mglo is only really relevant for hjk (prot headlong exists) and chloro (doesn't really hit much tbh)

haven't personally seen libero. moldy might be better in that slot bc it simply does not get walled long-term and can smash basically any team lacking a fur coat arc-psn

too high. the big spatk mons all threaten to blow past it with physical coverage, not too many relevant resists, and comfortably gets sat on by almost all regenvesters.

what does this even do? mixed bulk is ok but not really bulky enough + typing's not good enough to be a furscales, people love chloroblast rn so that already dents its viability, too fast to be a slow pivot, and if you want a volt-immune blanket check then mlix is right there.

perhaps a little too high given mmy was excellent support for not being walled by fairyceus and is now gone. still does anti-offense stuff as usual but now gets stalemated by fairyceus and pogre teams much easier, meaning other anti-offenses like phero are probably much more effective.

(Refrigerate, Sword of Ruin, Teravolt) what is this blasphemy Chessking345

 

[Gimmicky]

 

[shadowpea]

ok i actually have noms

c -> b+/a- (protean)
ur -> a (protean, mg, psysurge??)

i suppose this just means the vr hasnt changed since mmy and deoa got banned. zam now takes over as the specs/fully special libero pokemon and its pretty good at its job, while deon does everything else deoa/mmy did worse but it pulls it off fine enough. i personally think they (along with mmx) are still quite hellish and a pain in the ass to play against, though they are very noticeably worse than their predecessors, so the nommed positions are kinda tentative.

b -> b+ (turboblaze, fur coat)

ive had great success with etern personally. offensive moldy torch/energy/tox/sap fights everything 1v1 and is quite good at poisoning opposing scales walls to just win with its teammates long-term while simultaneously holding excellent defensive utility. fur coat with a similarish set is still good at spreading poison/knock on opposing sdef mons and simultaneously is an excellent secondary fc taking on the likes of sor/moldy mmx, beedrill, ashgren, kart sortof (nr but its faster and can sap or ohko), chicken etc. both sets also carry an innate uturn resist and poison immunity letting it run black sludge super well and be resistant to chip and magnifying their defensive presence.

b+ -> a- (regenerator)

mon is just very good and splashable. lix is the best ground (and therefore volt blocker) after groundceus and the most splashable steel when almost every team would like one. its immensely bulky and impossible to ohko for most mons letting it just sponge a hit and click something and regen out. runs utility stuff very well. it also holds other perks like nuzzle immunity, slowest uturn in the tier 98% of the time, and blades (or hammer) smacking things for fat damage so its not just a huge blob. really its biggest weakness is that its massive imposter bait unless you run knock or like blazing torque, which i have used and havent felt too bad about, just a bit offbeat.

btorque and torch should have more usage in general btw theyre cool.

rapidfire noms and nitpicks

c -> b- (regen)
c -> b- (furscales) (its "i want fairyceus but i cant have fairyceus so i try to compensate by outspeeding most everything")
(regenerator should defo be one of its abilities)
b- -> c (??? mon not good)
b -> b- (same)
ur -> c (desolate land)
c -> b-/b (regenerator, furscales maybe? (aerilate is bleh but might still have to be here))
(why is regen here it does nothing it should probably be prankster)
(add scales)
(refrigerate)

 

[Tea Guzzler]

hi so with dlc coming out wednesday we're going to end up hotswapping the vr rather than doing complete slates just bc they take too long and we don't want to be left like a week behind as this sorta has been

anyway here's some of my noms (second take; i accidentally closed the tab the first time)

UR -> A-/B+ - with no protean idk where this lands, but this seems about the right ballpark. closest you can really get to emulating protean is like sor with boomburst, as you technically still do the "bully the fc arc with special coverage" stuff conditional on predicts, but the ranges require noticeable prior chip to even be possible, let alone consistent (eg. boomburst on fc arc is only 50% to 2hko after rocks). generally just gets notably less kills than before but is still an undeniable threat that needs to be respected

B+ -> A- - very useful scouting tool into a lot of stuff and is incredibly difficult to deny utility from. also acts as an easy improof to a decent amount of stuff, arguably best mdia scout on the table besides arc-psn (which is a notaby higher commitment), and blanks the dragons pretty hard unless they go torch/plume specifically for you

B- -> B - prepping for these things is lowkey annoying, as maximum comfort against these pretty much warrants a fc arc-fairy + spare mirai structure to not get bowled over by kart, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but leaves flexibility to be desired. mostly kept in check by how relatively easy to out-offense, as pretty much everything scary is faster and the majority of that subset can pretty easily bomb them for 75%+ (on top of kyu-b's rocks weakness)

C -> B- - this mon only does one thing but this thing is actually valuable (picking off annoying stuff like fc yvel, arc-ground, and stray waters still kicking about), isn't overly commital for a teamslot, and relatively easy to improof (you can even opt to drop surging strikes for steam to open up even more options). there's no shot it's ranked below ferrothorn and mpert.

-------------------------------drops----------------------------
A -> A-/B+ - idt this is on the level of pogre and mdia. snr sets have similar issues as pfd in that scales arc / fairies are very common, and even with low kick you're needing prior hazard chip to actually beat pogre (plus since dia-o and ting have basically vanished there's realistically no spdef mons you just autobeat as in pfd). fc arc-ghost really hates how often the scary phys attackers run mixed coverage, and going cloak for a bit of protection against these sort of defeats the point of running arc-ghost (self-proof setup fc).

B -> C/UR - wayyy too high. it doesn't really wall anything except specs mdia, which isn't exactly something to boast about when scales arc and pogre devour its hits, dragon and steel don't really hit much of value and its best options also don't have secondaries, mixed attackers are a completely hopeless matchup as basically all of them run anti-steel coverage, and dragon/steel just doesn't offer a ton of relevant resistances. pretyy heavily outclassed.

ngl i've barely seen any of these and so would be inclined to unrank them for the time being. solgaleo is the only one i've actually seen used more than once and i really wasn't impressed; it's sorta just a mound of bulk with a serviceable typing and ok speed, but outside of specifically being a relatively bulky mon that outruns deo-a at +1 without needing +spe i don't see any reason to use it.

-----------------------------abil changes----------------------
prot's obviously going but mg/moldy/sor makes sense. tough claws to me has felt like a waste of the mmx slot bc of the other stuff that can so easily fit edrift to snipe the annoying stuff, and even if the role compression gets more valuable post-prot i reckon it'll still be the least common

regen should be on here. very useful tool for checking kart but not losing all of your momentum in the process and allows you to trade chip damage/utility much more readily. also makes it a pretty handy regenvest switchin since you don't mind mortal psn too much

sor/teravolt, same as the other banders. coverage / pivot move damage is very useful and i don't think there's any important calcs that steely gets over sor. tc also should have never been here bc neither of its best stabs are contact

fc main set. very strong stopgap to most mmx sets, does alright into kart, and idrk what scales is supposed to be walling anyway

fridge should've never been here

 

[Sweet Jesus]

The fact magic bounce isn't suggested ony any set seems completely off to me. It's definetely not an easy ability to squeeze in since it doesn't grant much offensive or walling power in a tier with so much to cover, but strength sap alone is enough of a reason to make the sacrifice of running magic bounce on a pokemon. The fact recover and regenerator are pretty damn hard to improof combined with recover's lack of pp often leads to 3 or 4 mons out of 6 running strength sap on a same team (possibly the most meta-game defining move of the tier I'd argue). Combine that with the fact very few pokemon with trash attack stats are viable switch-ins to the plethora of mons that can run strength sap, and you end up with magic bounce being one of the only proper ways of taking the edge in battles where no player manages to set up a sweep and everything comes down to who's better at hazards+pivot+healing.

Personnaly, I'd list magic bounce as a suggested ability on swampert mega because barely any defensive mon with 1 or 2 attacking moves can afford to run a grass move, as well as on just about any type arceus since his natural bulk and speed help him pull off the absence of a more offensive or walling ability.

I'd put toxic debris in a similar category as well. Although less metagame defining than magic bounce, I've had good success running a rocky helmet toxic debris celesteela which can easily become the winning factor in games where u-turn and flip turn are spammed a lot. Toxic spikes in general is a rather underated strategy in a tier with so few viable poison types. Unlike magic bounce, I'm not sure I'd recommend toxic debris as the main ability on any mon, although I could see Lugia and slowbro mega tanking hits, and forcing non-poison types to switch-in with lumina crash as one of their best niches.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

ok so we're going to be updating the VR at some point within the next week, so put your noms here before then

----------------------rises----------------------
A -> A+ - the amount of stuff this mon does while maintaining the potential of a late-game sweep on basically all sets, in addition to how effectively it harasses common walls, make it pretty far and away the most effective defensive option in the tier in my eyes (probably better than arc-fairy).

B -> B+ - these are melt machines that are significantly better than the other stuff in B when used right. they benefit from hitting imp super effectively with STAB and from their natural walls not overlapping with kart at all really, meaning that teams safe against one (eg. fc mirai) will be inherently on the back foot against these two, and vice versa. they're interchangeable and neither's majorly better than the other; kyu-b's stab glance makes dispatching fc yveltal a lot faster, it has a stab priority option, and more of its bulk is concentrated in HP so sword of ruin sets hit imp harder, but chomp can more effectively run adapt (both hitting imp harder and not revealing) and doesn't need to run v-create, meaning it gets both gigaton and pivoting.

C -> B- - dia-o still isn't great, but with an unknockable item and the best mirai matchup realistically possible (thanks to not being weak to fire), defensive teleport sets give it solid utility as a pivot that can still fire off dangerous dracos and revdances. it doesn't really wall anything on the furscales end though, so is still kind of underexplored.

C -> B- - this as a fur coater is pretty firmly still in the bin, but in my experience it's probably the best dual screener, since water typing and massive phys bulk give you an almost-unheard of defensive option on ho; this works both to check things like kart and phero but also to use scarier stuff that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to use. screens is in general pretty underexplored and you're pretty much forced to run a yveltal to not fold to snr arc-ghost, which hold it back a fair bit.

C -> B-? - this feels probably the least deserving of these rises but i'll make it anyway. unecro suffers from being chronically outclassed by mmx at just about everything, but it has one slight niche, being that it hits itself SE with its own STAB; this means that all-out attacking sets are generally better on necrozma, as it an afford generally more optimized coverage without having to run a move like poltergeist specifically for the imp matchup. this is all it can do though, which is why i wouldn't really press too hard for this.

----------------------drops----------------------
A -> B+ / B - i have not seen anyone really use this i can't lie

A- -> B+ - this is still a very valuable softcheck and slow pivot, but fire move mirai now being standard harms this thing's viability a notable amount. there's also just not a ton of volt switch that it can block.

B -> B- / C - this thing's speed is not very valuable currently, which is an issue, as about the only thing this really does well is its speed.

B- -> C - as a fur coater, there's not much reason to use a water-type because of kart. as anything else, slowbro's almost always just better.

B- -> C / UR - i don't know what this is supposed to do. the scariest mons whose main stab it resists all have fire stab, and unlike steelix (which still gets to scout and/or pivot in most cases), this just folds instantly.

C -> UR - haven't seen mzam, maero, mmence, guzzlord, and fini do anything impressive the few times i have seen them, and haven't seen the others just at all.

 

[Chessking345]

Noms noms noms noms
From initial viability rank, not going to bother with specific position within ranks here
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A+ to A
Fairyceus doesn't feel very A+ to me, it can be overloaded and is generally passive. A fits the mon better.
A to A+
Miraidon is nuts, Fire-move sets greatly limit the stuff that comfortably switches in and in general teams can struggle with good switch ins to this. All of this while being a top defensive option.
A to A-
Deo-A has to be underexplored but its likely for a reason, the mon feels riskier to play with than other options that can provide similar degrees of potential while being easier to pilot.
A- to B+/B
Never was a fan of this in A- and now it really does have issues when SE coverage is more and more common.
B to B+
Eternatus has seen consistent solid usage with sets that range from defensive to more offensive purposes depending on moves item ability. It can be challenging to deal with considering its good matchup into many special walls and lack of exploitable weaknesses. From my experiences Eternatus is always scary to deal with.
B to C
Pheromosa sucks
B- to C
Dondozo sucks
B- to C
Dialga-O does all of its roles except slow pivot better
C to B-/B
Premium Miraidon check, beats all Primal Kyogre variants, and also can do Doom Desire stuff as well as general RegenVest utility.
C to B-
Palkia has a very solid matchup into most common special walls.
C to B-
Fur Coat is a mixed Diancie check (and Garde check), a Kartana check, and a Kyurem-B check at the minimum. Unlike Victini the lack of Astral weakness also lets it handle MMX a bit better.
C to B-
Meta has developed to where Chloroblast and Electro Drift have seen significant and moderate decrease in usage (I also have like yet to see Seed Flare feel like something is wrong), and Waterceus's unique balanced bulk among Waters make it serve as a decent defensive option again. Fur Coat variants have the SpD advantage over Dondozo to not get blasted by neutral Astral Barrage while Ice Scales variants have actual physical defense to serve as a check to Diancie, unlike Kyogre (even though we all know scales kyogre is fake set)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UR noms
C to UR
These Pokemon suck, they either check basically nothing or are checked by basically everything.
Guzzlord has generally been replaced by different stuff on Blacephalon teams.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New noms from UR
to C
Has been used to good success and typing is cool, notably walling Miraidon.
to C
Toxapex is a stat based sapblocker letting it commit to defensive abilities, where it can serve as a strong Diancie check and potentially a Kyu-B and Kartana scout/check. Its biggest issue is improofing as Imposter has enormous bulk and cannot be poisoned on switch.
to C?
Shaky nom but Venusaur is a good Diancie check and with WBB also walls out Miraidon, and checks Primal Kyogre. I haven't gotten around to using this mon yet but these traits are like good.
to C
Stat based sapblocker similar to Toxapex. Unlike Pex it has weaker defensive capabilities but is less passive into offensive threats (pivot out of Steels) and significantly easier to improof thanks to the 4x weakness and awful defense.
to S
Very good Pokemon
Might edit some other UR stuff in if I missed.

 

[vesp]

to S
Very good Pokemon
Might edit some other UR stuff in if I missed.

I thought it needed power construct now? Isn't zyg-100 forced into its 50% form immediately, since it's an in-game form like palafin-H?

 

[Ren]

I thought it needed power construct now? Isn't zyg-100 forced into its 50% form immediately, since it's an in-game form like palafin-H?

he's memeing

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

C -> B+ (regen, fur coat, scales)
People are sleeping on this mon. It’s one of the best mmx check since your bulk lets you take lumina crash, wicked blow and astral. I personally like regenvest but you can probably go fc or scales. I’ll only talk about regenvest since I haven’t tried other sets. New move infernal parade is very good on it. Can switch on most miraidon and kyogre and u-turn out. You might get knocked or poisoned but it’s not too big of a deal. Tanks kart flower trick and v-create easily if you can predict. Blocks rapid spin sometimes.

C -> B+ (regen, fur coat, scales)
Classic giratina partner because you resist dragon, ghost and dark. Best ghostceus wall with scales and haze since you’re not weak to rocks and are completely immune to judgment. Can wall some mmx sets with fc. Haven’t tried regen but you can run dtail/smog to wall ghostceus. Downside compared to yveltal is ofc you don’t do damage but thanks to mortal spin, knock off and salt cure, you don’t need to.

C -> B+ (well-baked body, primordial sea, fur coat)
If you give this mon fire immunity, it is the best mortal spin blocker. Completely walls eternatus and poisonceus. Kart does a lot with gigaton if you don’t run fc but you can kinda wall. If you go fc you can wall some mmx sets and kart if they don’t click v-create.

SS (sap sipper)
By far the best mmx and kart check with sap sipper and gravity. Bonus emotional damage which occasionally gives you free wins.

 

[Notagamer]

b ———> b+ pretty much agreeing with tea guzzler here. Both are excellent breakers with good piloting.
b+ ———> a- arceus poison can wall the majority of physical mons well, and having a knock absorber + mortal absorber can be exceptionally valuable.
b ———> b+ mixed blacephalon can break many teams very well, as the only common wall for it is for coat yveltal.
C ———> b. beedrill mega outruns mmx and can chunk it/kill it when it’s low health, it also does very well into popular fur coat mons particularly mirai being unable to switch in reliably after knock or hazards 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Beedrill-Mega Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Miraidon: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes. (About 75% after acc). Yveltal calc 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Beedrill-Mega Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Yveltal: 162-192 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Not to mention teravolt calcs 252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Beedrill-Mega Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Miraidon: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and 252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Beedrill-Mega Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 244-288 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Not to mention pairs real nicely with mega garchomp as chomp beats poisonceus and prim sea steels that aren’t Regi while bee drills (puns always intended) through dairyceus and yvel. (Also it revenge kills Kartana.)

 

[Eelstartega]

Let me remember things. I'll be basing those numbers mostly from the tournament we had during the last few weeks. I've wanted to talk about this topic for over two weeks at this point. It'll take a while so I'll talk about pokémon entering or exiting B+ tier first or higher.

RISES

Diancie-Mega: A -->A+
While not that fast and is incredibly frail, no one can deny her offensive capabilities with pixiliate boomburst and Extreme Speed. The coverage makes her not easy to wall since there's always chance of a lure and specs just hits very hard, and seems to fit on both offense and semistall alike. I'd even argue it's atm better than MMX. Here, tournament footage of Diancie-Mega destroying the opponent in the current tour:
Game 1 Week 4
Game 2 Week 4
Game 1 week 5
Game 2 Week 5
Game 1 Week 6
Game 2 Week 6
Game 3 Week 6

Eternatus: B --> A/A+.
It might look like a drastic change but I have my motives. First, the pokemon's usage is incredible, surpassing even MMX at top level. Why is that, well, because A) Eternatus Stats are amazing, good power in 145 SpA, good 140|95|95 bulk and speedties MMX. That means this pokémon has more role flexibility than any pokémon except arguably Ho-Oh and therefore difficult to check reliably B) It's poison typing is incredibly valuable in a mortal spin meta, because it allows Eternatus to actually have an Item and hability slot.
This flexibility of role and item alongside being faster than Arceus makes it an incredibly valuable asset on a lot of teams to cover holes no other team could, and that's why it's so popular and effective. Is A+ or A? I'm not sure, but is in one of those two positions.

Arceus-Ghost: A- --> A.
It had become one of our best Setup sweepers and arguably the best Arceus form. It's immune to fighting, is Chansey-proof for the most part and can be almost impossible to wall, making it a valuable asset on offensive and specially balance teams who might otherwise struggle to break through walls without becoming vulnerable to chansey. Its vulnerability to passive damage doesn't allow me to put it on A+, but A seems adequate for a pokémon like this.

Audino-Mega: C --> A-/A.
This is the single craziest proposal of the tier, but I have my motives. Remember what I've said about being Arceus-Ghost being almost impossible to wall? I said almost because Audino-Mega with covert cloak just shuts down Arceus-Ghost entirely, specially the most common Audino being magic bounce. This means many offensive mons are kinda out of options to deal with the chip damage, putting a stranglehold in the meta. Right now there's an insanely popular semistall team consisting of Cloak Scales Arceus-Fairy, Eviolite Among Us Chansey, Cloak Bounce Audino-Mega, Cloak Fur Coat Eternatus, Pixiliate Specs Diancie-Mega and Banded Sword of ruin Kartana. Would post the effects of it but I'll be honest, this pokémon bores me.

Arceus-Poison: B+ -- >A-.
The prevalence of mortal makes poison types more valuable than normal, and Arceus-Poison is one of the 2 best ones. Its main role is as a Wall who is incredible at wearing down opponents via spreading poison status, but it can also be an effective setup sweeper in a pinch. Opponents struggle to break through due to both poison immunity, the 120|120|120 bulk enhanced by fur coat or ice scales and strength sap, and Chansey not being a good answer.

Ho-Oh: B --> B+/A-.
It's no secret I'm a bit of a Ho-Oh Stan, but I have my motives. 1) I want to piss off Tea and Chessking make sure we have appropiate rankings for all pokémon. 2) Ho-Oh has good practical applications going for as proven by Cat and Augustakira, most notably being a flexible swiss knife, I would say the single most flexible pokémon around in terms of moves (20-23 "OU" moves, going up the higher rank unlike most pokémon). It's quite vulnerable to Salt cure and stone axe, but in return it's a flying type with incredible bulk and high BP moves, even going as far as going special.
Out of tournaments, Fur Coat Ho-Oh has been popping off lately as a mix wall in a similar vein to Steelix-Mega but more raw bulk, while Desolate land is an extreme version of Magic guard and while I feel is somewhat gimmicky, it's still something to consider against.
That's the point, the sets might not be the very best on each category, but all are threatening enough that you need to get what role it'll play or your team will crumble, and all so different they need completely different answers because that stat distribution and typing allows many unique niches. Is just more in line with B+ and A- than B atm.

Blissey: Unranked --> B+
I remembered something important for this: The fact Wigglytuff was ranked well despite being outclassed by Clefable in every conceivable way. Reason? Simple, they were played together. What I'm getting at is that there's teams at top level who use both Chansey and Blissey who are working quite well. What's more, Blissey has some advantages over Chansey, most notably being a better mon to clone Arceus-Ghost or can use covert cloak to avoid poisoning and salt. Not quite enough to make her A rank, but enough to make her a very solid B+ rank.

Celesteela: C--> B+.
Is just a great wall atm. The meta had become more SemiStall-oriented lately and this pokémon is great at walling just about everything and outlasting you via regenvest, and is quite often immune to fire or just unbreakable on the physical side with fur coat, almost always leaving behind stealth rocks through Stone Axe. The "big stall" meta just seems happy with defensive Steel types to block mortal spin who aren't weak to ground, and while salt cure is nasty, this pokémon can outheal it in one way or another and switch with U-turn.

Giratina-Altered: C --> B+
Stall and semistall had become more prevalent lately and Giratina alongside the pokémon above. Altered is used mostly on Hard Stall, which had become more prevalent lately due to Mortal spin being everywhere (WHY DID YOU SAID NO TO THE BAN?!), with either a Prankster to break through setups, fur coat to wall almost anything or magic bounce to negate strength sap.

Drops

Kyogre-Primal: A --> A-
The reason of the drop is quite simple: SALT CURE. Kyogre's main set is its regenvest one because it has STAB flip turn, but in doing so it's vulnerable to Salt cure, and that alongside poison or rocks outdamages regenerator's healing. It healing the opponent so much with Strength sap isn't good either due to the massive 150 Attack it has. In general it feels kinda outclassed by Steelix-Mega because that pokémon isn't vulnerable to mortal spin. Still good because it's still our best water type around, but even that is starting to become questionable at times.

Yveltal: A- --> B+.
Not a massive drop, but certainly doesn't like seeing Arceus-Fairy and Diancie-Mega so often and a lesser frequency of MMX to switch into, as well as fiercer flying type competition in Celesteela and Ho-Oh and being forced to use boots while also being a bad magic guard user makes it vulnerable to chip damage.

Deoxys-Attack: A --> B
This pokemon has 0 defensive utility in a semistall meta. Outoffense offense isn't very valuable atm meaning it's outclassed by MMX in almost every regard except the still excelent and valuable 150 speed, but it's quite limited as a pokémon.

Arceus-Ground: A- --> C
Arceus-Ground is just dissapointing atm. Is weaker than Swampert-Mega, frailer than Steelix-Mega and the speed advantage isn't that great. You almost never need an specially defensive ground type because ground isn't a very good defensive typing, specially if the cost is using your Arceus Slot over the more generally useful Fairy, Ghost and Poison. It's a drastic fall but there's a reason why it doesn't even reach a 3%.

The rest need to wait a tiny bit more.

 

[rightclicker]

rises:

C -> B-/B
checks ghostceus really really well, checks darks & ghosts, decent sapblocker with bounce and can sponge knocks in a pinch if you don't want your main cloaker to be annoyed as hell.

B -> A
yknow how fairyceus is really good as a general special wall? this is a special dragon that can absolutely shit on fairyceus, and as a bonus you can use the turns fairyceus is scared to switchin on you to simply set up tspikes (which are broken as hell because no one can afford to run boots).

A -> A+
mortal user that’s stupidly hard to spinblock, with the combination of stuff like th, torch, saltcure, the whole shabang. specs is also pretty good, having good odds of 2hkoing fairyceus with rv after minor chip + rocks.

A- -> A+
you literally cannot wall this at all long term. every single “check” folds to moldy or a coverage move. the only downside is that improofing is annoying as hell but the mons used to improof aren’t that bad by themselves.

C -> B-
i hate this mon as hell but i gotta say it can softcheck mdiancie, etern, zac-c, ho-oh, kyu-b, fairyceus and kartana to a minor degree good enough with psea. be sure to carry pogre checks though

drops:

A -> B+/A-
this hasn’t been doing that well recently. in theory it’s kinda unwallable between mg and other random mixed stuff (psysurge, bor/sor, etc) but in practice mg doesn’t hit far too hard because no stab and mixed stuff doesn’t have too pretty improofs unless if you wanna handicap yourself vs something.

A- -> B-/C
what does he even do
you can block volt, but that’s about it. most special guys don’t even carry volt, and the ones that do usually have ways of shitting on you anyways (kyu-w with it’s stab, mirai with simply clicking denergy/steam)

 

[Tea Guzzler]

hi, we've updated the VR and the abilities!
notable changes:
A to A+ -> Miraidon's insane role compression and late-game sweeping potential, as well as ability to check nukes like Kartana, have put it into A+.
B+ to A- -> Arceus-Poison's good set flexibility, lack of common weaknesses bar MMX's Lumina Crash, and ability to sponge both Knock Off and Mortal Spin give it good room against slower threats like RegenVest users.
B to B+ -> These two deal immense damage on Choice Band sets and benefit from a natural advantage into Fur Coat Miraidon, meaning against certain teams there's almost no resistance. These two are mostly sidegrades of each other in this manner; Garchomp's better into Primordial Sea Steel-types, while Kyurem-Black's better into Yveltal.
C to B+ -> While Dialga-O won't be walling stuff with Ice Scales like it did in Pre-Full Dex, its typing conveniently gives it an excellent matchup into Miraidon, on top of blocking Mortal Spin, having a Knock Off immunity, and blanket checking most of the tier. Fur Coat sets also benefit from both walling Kartana and being able to easily pivot.
C to B -> Celesteela's typing and low Speed letting it outslow Kyogre-Primal give it a decent niche as a blanket check and utility pivot respectively.
A to B- -> This did not fare anywhere near as well as expected after the Protean ban. While it can still break through stuff with sets like Psychic Surge, it's often safer to use other similarly-destructive attackers like MMX to get nearly the same amount of work done.

 

[Eelstartega]

hi, we've updated the VR and the abilities!
notable changes:
A to A+ -> Miraidon's insane role compression and late-game sweeping potential, as well as ability to check nukes like Kartana, have put it into A+.
B+ to A- -> Arceus-Poison's good set flexibility, lack of common weaknesses bar MMX's Lumina Crash, and ability to sponge both Knock Off and Mortal Spin give it good room against slower threats like RegenVest users.
B to B+ -> These two deal immense damage on Choice Band sets and benefit from a natural advantage into Fur Coat Miraidon, meaning against certain teams there's almost no resistance. These two are mostly sidegrades of each other in this manner; Garchomp's better into Primordial Sea Steel-types, while Kyurem-Black's better into Yveltal.
C to B+ -> While Dialga-O won't be walling stuff with Ice Scales like it did in Pre-Full Dex, its typing conveniently gives it an excellent matchup into Miraidon, on top of blocking Mortal Spin, having a Knock Off immunity, and blanket checking most of the tier. Fur Coat sets also benefit from both walling Kartana and being able to easily pivot.
C to B -> Celesteela's typing and low Speed letting it outslow Kyogre-Primal give it a decent niche as a blanket check and utility pivot respectively.
A to B- -> This did not fare anywhere near as well as expected after the Protean ban. While it can still break through stuff with sets like Psychic Surge, it's often safer to use other similarly-destructive attackers like MMX to get nearly the same amount of work done.

And you still keep pretending the 18% PR usage at top ranks of Blissey is not even worth a rank, let alone a B-one, despite clearly proving herself so many times to be a solid pokémon with reasons to be used over Chansey OR WITH, which is enough of a reason to rank a pokémon btw, even if outclassed in most cases or even all cases.

Edit: Because the Moderator doesn't seem to take me or my opinion seriously, here it is the link to Blissey's raw numbers, which aren't that bad and akin to pokémon like Ho-Oh, Celesteela or Garchomp-Mega aka a B tier. Also, Blissey is better if you're not holding eviolite because she has more bulk, and with so many users of salt cure and judgement, it might be a good idea to have your imposter to have a plate or covert cloak.
Here it's also proof of Blissey working due to not holding eviolite; no, it's not a fixed match, it's a tournament set I lost 1-2 btw, and my one victory is due to Blissey doing something Chansey would do worse.

it's literally 10 hp difference. in return you lose access to chansey's objectively best item (which if you don't remember isn't forced; you can still use spooky plate chansey and you don't instantly give away that you aren't eviolite). also no i don't take your woe-be-me post seriously how could you tell

 

[Notagamer]

Hi why is still ur? With the rise of fire move miraidon and arc poison as well as mglo mmx it seems like such a good Pokémon especially considering what other shit is in c rank it definitely seems like it could be there.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Hi why is still ur? With the rise of fire move miraidon and arc poison as well as mglo mmx it seems like such a good Pokémon especially considering what other shit is in c rank it definitely seems like it could be there.

assuming this is latias, the main reason is that nobody has used it - we're not (at least i'm in opposition to) ranking stuff with no usage for the reason that it might be good. otherwise, it doesn't seem bad per se but it doesn't really check mmx (crash into steel beam can just flat out ko and you wall no other special coverage, hjk -> gigaton is about 50/50 to ko), so it ends up almost solely being a chip damage absorber and psnceus check, the former of which tending to want slow pivoting which this can't do. not a hard no to ranking this but it needs to actually have a niche and be proven to fill it well to be ranked.

 

[Eelstartega]

it's literally 10 hp difference. in return you lose access to chansey's objectively best item (which if you don't remember isn't forced; you can still use spooky plate chansey and you don't instantly give away that you aren't eviolite). also no i don't take your woe-be-me post seriously how could you tell

(I know this comment will put me on trouble with Smogon and specially Tea, but I have to)

Tea Guzzler, I know it's you who edited my post; I didn't knew you have those admin powers though. And I knew you weren't taking me seriously because you reacted with a laugh; No one who takes a post seriously reacts to it with a laugh.

Also, Is it really that valuable to make the opponent not know what the item is? I genuinely doubt it, because:

1. We're talking about using the pink blobs. Anyone knows/expects they're imposters when alone, specially because they're very popular as leads (I know the last one because of the tournament data). You're not playing imposter Chansey or Blissey for the surprise factor, is for the safety one. If anything Blissey has better surprise factor due to some people trying to use sets other than imposter.
2. Good players can figure out eviolite with a singular damage roll anyways because it's their pokémon what they're copying; eviolite just gives too high of a boost to not be noticed, like choiced items. Again, the surprise factor isn't really something of much value with Chansey unlike other pokémon in BH.
3. You're losing more than just 10 health, you're losing 11 (To take less from all the passive damage going around you should get only 703 HP. No idea why almost no one is doing it at top level in a meta full of stone axe, mortal spin and salt cure), and also becoming unable to switch safely into passive damage if going eviolite.
4. In case of knock off or without eviolite Chansey is just a worse Blissey; can't use special attacks, it's frailer and slower. While indeed Chansey would have lost more health, it's common for them to overheal with Strenght sap and regenerator, which does put a good emphasis to base bulk despite all the chip damage.

There's only one logical conclussion here then, considering there's no surprise in imposter or eviolite chansey: The reason to run Chansey over Blissey is eviolite.
According to Smogon's data over 97% of Chansey games have her with eviolite and over 96% imposter. Chansey has a pressense of 68% btw, while Blissey still has 18%. Also, Blissey only pairs with Chansey 34% of the time.
What do I mean with this? Well, basically that the whole "Chansey vs Blissey" thing is more about "What item should my imposter use?"
I agree with you that eviolite Chansey is USUALLY the best imposter, but that doesn't mean every single time as an unranked would suggest; sometimes you do need to proof your team against an Arceus form or the resiliance against chip damage, something Chansey just does worse than Blissey.

Because you seem to think I'm some sort of clown, I think the best way you understand me is by quoting someone who knows about BH more than I do.

TLDR you really can't view your team as Offensive core + Defensive core and so long as the latter improofs the former it's all fine. Different offensive playstyles open up different needs for defense. There isn't one correct or easy way to build and looking to "solve" the meta isn't going to help you improve as a player.

As a moderator of this tournament you also should know about the last week, where the three winners used Blissey to win, one being Augustakira who I quoted earlier. Let remind you we're right now on top 12 and is a money tournament, they would have literal 0 reason to use unviable pokémon...
And that's my problem with the tier list you're showing, is excessively stiff in terms of "what's viable" in a tier where the main limit is creativity and ridiculous powermoves. This ranking feels too, subjective and personal, rather than something who is actually looking the data with some small bias, it feels like bias with maybe some light looking at data, despite proving her value in way too many games, despite most seeing Blissey more as a tool in case eviolite isn't more valuable than imposter proof on certain structures.

Final words. I might not be the smartest person in the site, and might also be impulsive as a player, but I can notice bias. Why? Because I study data analysis, and when bias is this severe it becomes easy to notice through mere looking at data, and treating Blissey as a noob trap like Regieleki when she's top 15 usage at all ranks with respectable viability ceiling, it just reeks double standard.
This ranking is here to help players to understand what does and does not work, to get how the meta actually is behaving. Saying "Blissey is bad because Chansey is always better" rather than "If you don't need imposter to cover X Chansey is better" is precisely that noob trap of thinking, failing to do the job of this thread to begin with of helping players to understand how the meta does and does not work...

And that's the reason I'm so insistent with what I do feel are more accurate rankings, because I DO WANT TO HELP NEW PLAYERS, that's why I do this tour tables despite them taking me like a dozen hours to complete, to help others to get a clearer broad picture.
Sorry If my manners weren't the appropiate, is just that I had so many stuff to say about the elder pink blob I notice you're deliverately avoiding to see. Hope you can understand my motives, Tea Guzzler.