BH Balanced Hackmons Resources Thread

[Tea Guzzler]

inhales

Tea Guzzler, I know it's you who edited my post; I didn't knew you have those admin powers though. And I knew you weren't taking me seriously because you reacted with a laugh; No one who takes a post seriously reacts to it with a laugh.

if you couldn't tell, i left the there specifically to indicate that it was me - there's not really any point in posting in a quiet thread with a 4-odd line post that doesn't actually add anything of value. the haha react isn't at the fact that you're nomming blissey, it's at the over-the-top language for one mon on an OM vr.

Also, Is it really that valuable to make the opponent not know what the item is? I genuinely doubt it, because:

1. We're talking about using the pink blobs. Anyone knows/expects they're imposters when alone, specially because they're very popular as leads (I know the last one because of the tournament data). You're not playing imposter Chansey or Blissey for the surprise factor, is for the safety one. If anything Blissey has better surprise factor due to some people trying to use sets other than imposter.
2. Good players can figure out eviolite with a singular damage roll anyways because it's their pokémon what they're copying; eviolite just gives too high of a boost to not be noticed, like choiced items. Again, the surprise factor isn't really something of much value with Chansey unlike other pokémon in BH.
3. You're losing more than just 10 health, you're losing 11 (To take less from all the passive damage going around you should get only 703 HP. No idea why almost no one is doing it at top level in a meta full of stone axe, mortal spin and salt cure), and also becoming unable to switch safely into passive damage if going eviolite.
4. In case of knock off or without eviolite Chansey is just a worse Blissey; can't use special attacks, it's frailer and slower. While indeed Chansey would have lost more health, it's common for them to overheal with Strenght sap and regenerator, which does put a good emphasis to base bulk despite all the chip damage.

psychological warfare is always an iffy point because there's no way of measuring it. however, the main benefit of having chansey is that the default position is that it's eviolite - when you haven't been able to confirm it, the default position is to play as if the chansey is eviolite, which can put you in a really dodgy position if you do something that's supposed to beat eviolite but hard loses to x other item (eg. setting up with SNR lunala against a spooky plate chansey). using the blob to improof an ally is only ever feasible when said ally is a pretty weak special attacker if you don't have eviolite (something like boosting etern is off the table without evio for example), but even in these cases, chansey being slower and having less attack is arguably a good thing, since it gives away less strength sap recovery and has the slower pivoting (and min speed chansey also increases the chance that an opposing imposter transforms into it, thus you know the enemy's exact capabilities if you both lead imp turn 1 - blissey will always outspeed chansey and thus can't do this).

regarding the health, most people don't bother going to 703 because of a mixture of simply not remembering that it's a thing and that the 1 hp damage is usually inconsequential. the argument is then 704 vs 714 - while blissey has the 10 hp advantage if you aren't running eviolite, it's ultimately a value judgment as to whether the potential to mindgame your opponent is worth the 10 hp - it usually is in my opinion.

There's only one logical conclussion here then, considering there's no surprise in imposter or eviolite chansey: The reason to run Chansey over Blissey is eviolite.
According to Smogon's data over 97% of Chansey games have her with eviolite and over 96% imposter. Chansey has a pressense of 68% btw, while Blissey still has 18%. Also, Blissey only pairs with Chansey 34% of the time.
What do I mean with this? Well, basically that the whole "Chansey vs Blissey" thing is more about "What item should my imposter use?"
I agree with you that eviolite Chansey is USUALLY the best imposter, but that doesn't mean every single time as an unranked would suggest; sometimes you do need to proof your team against an Arceus form or the resiliance against chip damage, something Chansey just does worse than Blissey.

this is correct - when chansey's best item is eviolite and blissey doesn't have it, eviolite becomes a massive selling point for chansey.

little tangent to when i was first learning bh in gen 8, i made an aerilate rayquaza set with boomburst/espeed/v-create/sap life orb (this already existed before, but people had sort of just forgotten about it). i posted it in OMcord, and one of the first responses i got was "why couldn't this be a yveltal"? it sounded silly at first, given that yveltal's triage set was arguably much better, but upon thinking about it i realized that there wasn't really much point in not being yveltal - just because triage was better didn't mean that this aerilate set was somehow worse, and it benefitted from most yveltals either being nasty plot triage or boots aerilate spin. the takeaway from this would be that just because a mon isn't using "arguably the best set" doesn't mean alternative sets are automatically bad - that's my point here with chansey running different items than eviolite. eviolite is the best, but that doesn't automatically mean the others are bad or less valuable.

As a moderator of this tournament you also should know about the last week, where the three winners used Blissey to win, one being Augustakira who I quoted earlier. Let remind you we're right now on top 12 and is a money tournament, they would have literal 0 reason to use unviable pokémon...
And that's my problem with the tier list you're showing, is excessively stiff in terms of "what's viable" in a tier where the main limit is creativity and ridiculous powermoves. This ranking feels too, subjective and personal, rather than something who is actually looking the data with some small bias, it feels like bias with maybe some light looking at data, despite proving her value in way too many games, despite most seeing Blissey more as a tool in case eviolite isn't more valuable than imposter proof on certain structures.

i own this thread but the VR isn't just my opinions - everyone on council pools their opinions on the vr, given current meta and nominations people have made in this thread justifying rises/drops, and we literally have a spreadsheet where we put the votes. short answer is that blissey simply wasn't considered at the time we were making the VR, which was before that last round - this is also why other imp items like cloak and spooky plate are absent, as the people that rate them high simply forgot (pretty much everyone on council except me), and the terminal non-evio imp haters (me) just didn't bother nomming what i see as a meh at best mon. this is going to be biased, of course it is, because people don't tend to make their voices heard in formal posts like the ones on this thread, and collecting data en-masse via a survey or something is just infeasible given time constraints.

Final words. I might not be the smartest person in the site, and might also be impulsive as a player, but I can notice bias. Why? Because I study data analysis, and when bias is this severe it becomes easy to notice through mere looking at data, and treating Blissey as a noob trap like Regieleki when she's top 15 usage at all ranks with respectable viability ceiling, it just reeks double standard.
This ranking is here to help players to understand what does and does not work, to get how the meta actually is behaving. Saying "Blissey is bad because Chansey is always better" rather than "If you don't need imposter to cover X Chansey is better" is precisely that noob trap of thinking, failing to do the job of this thread to begin with of helping players to understand how the meta does and does not work...

read above about bias being sort of inevitable in what is essentially a pool of subjective ranking. i don't think i've said anywhere that blissey and regieleki are on the same tier of noobtrap, and i don't think i've said anywhere at all that blissey is a noobtrap, because it isn't - i just think chansey is kind of better, hence my hostility to blissey. regieleki is ultra ass and you will be laughed off the pitch for using moldy 4 hazards or whatever, blissey is just worse chansey in my eyes, which still can't do poorly because its a high-hp imposter, but can still do better imo. what this seems like is you extrapolating my dislike of blissey to "blissey is a noobtrap and you should be shamed for using it" because i'm not budging, which i don't really like because it simply isn't true.

And that's the reason I'm so insistent with what I do feel are more accurate rankings, because I DO WANT TO HELP NEW PLAYERS, that's why I do this tour tables despite them taking me like a dozen hours to complete, to help others to get a clearer broad picture.
Sorry If my manners weren't the appropiate, is just that I had so many stuff to say about the elder pink blob I notice you're deliverately avoiding to see. Hope you can understand my motives, Tea Guzzler.

i'm not deliberately avoiding these mentions for what it's worth - i just think you're picking probably the worst way to get me to pay attention to them, being open hostility. if i'm reading:
"And you still keep pretending the 18% PR usage at top ranks of Blissey is not even worth a rank, let alone a B-one, despite clearly proving herself so many times to be a solid pokémon with reasons to be used over Chansey OR WITH, which is enough of a reason to rank a pokémon btw, even if outclassed in most cases or even all cases."
with the aggressive tone, exaggerated capital letters, etc. then i'm instantly finding it harder to take you seriously, since i'm now having to decide if this is a ragepost or actual criticism. just a formal nomination or a "hey, i think you missed blissey / the other imposter items" or something would be much easier for both of us to work with.

 

[MAMP]

quick couple of nominations:

Mega Mewtwo X to S
Best mon in the tier rn, I struggle to find good reasons not to run it. Picks its own counters, very unpredictable, half of its checks lose if they're chipped or knocked or poisoned or hazards are up which makes it so easy to set up late-game sweeps, and it offers a ton of utility just by being fast and strong. You're not weak to Kartana if you have MMX + a Gigaton resist.

Blissey to C or B-
Obviously way worse than Chansey but certainly worth ranking. With Covert Cloak being such a strong option and Knock Off being as prevalent as it is, the gap between Eviolite Imposter and other items is smaller than it's ever been. The value of bluffing Eviolite is massively overrated, and Blissey's extra HP is meaningful. Also double Imposter is good.

Mega Gardevoir to C
I tried this and I've played against it a couple times and it really did not impress. STAB Lumina Crash isn't really a good reason to run this over Mega Diancie: outspeeding Kart/neutral nature Arceus, the physical coverage, and Extreme Speed are so huge. If you're otherwise really weak to Poisonceus or you need a Sap blocker or something then this is reasonable, but I feel it's too often outclassed to be in the B ranks.

 

[Don Bozo]

to C/B-
Unlike some people, I'm not a believer in Imposter Blissey or double Imposter. If you don't know, Imposter Chansey's last name is Chansey, not Blissey. The reason I'm nominating this is because first, Blissey starts with B so obviously it deserves B tier. The other, less important reason is that this mon is a surprisingly solid wall to Miraidon, Ghost/Special Arceus and Eternatus with Magic Guard. I'm gonna give credit to Akira who I believed to have come up with this idea, just as a full disclosure. However I will take credit for the Wish + Baneful idea. With Wish, Baneful Bunker and Salt Cure, you can comfortably check all of those mons provided you have knocked off their cloaks. +6 Miraidon tcage never 2hko you. You can also run other moves such as Haze, Whirlwind, Toxic and Mortal/Rapid Spin. I'll also mention that it's quite difficult to spinblock Rapid Spin with Salt Cure because you beat non-fight coverage Ghostceus 1v1, and Giratina (another underrated mon btw) is quite rare and can't do much back. I haven't even mentioned that this mon is the second natural best Sap blocker below Chansey thanks to its low attack, nor the fact that it is the best Wish passer in terms of hp recovery. I highly recommend you try the set below to have a better idea of what Blissey can really do. I will cede that this set is reliant on Knock Off support for any pressure because without Salt Cure, you're obviously not doing anything to Eternatus, Arceus or Miraidon. Alternatively you can also run Knock over Rapid Spin.

Big Imposter (Blissey) (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Salt Cure
- Wish
- Baneful Bunker
- Rapid Spin

 

[Notagamer]

why isn’t there a section for status support? Smth like.
STATUS SPREADING.
Glare:
Nuzzle: Anything with
Toxic:
Will o wisp:
Could be really helpful, I know my list isn’t comprehensive at all but it’s just a sort of draft.
(Also why aren’t and on the spikes list they should be no?:

 

[rightclicker]

why isn’t there a section for status support? Smth like.
STATUS SPREADING.
Glare:
Nuzzle: Anything with
Toxic:
Will o wisp:
Could be really helpful, I know my list isn’t comprehensive at all but it’s just a sort of draft.
(Also why aren’t and on the spikes list they should be no?:

well anything can realistically run status viably esp with mortal legal - you're not exactly strapped into these options for a specific status (i've seen stuff like mortal hooh, glare yvel and other stuff being used to success) whereas with stuff like spikes or hazard removal you can only have so much stuff that doesn't fail to spinblocking/spinners/bounce (for example, etern can threaten or at the least force out spinners like mlix out with tsong while gaining +1 spa in the process)

 

[Chessking345]

Going to make some noms since its been a month. I'll make some like meta observation problematic elements stuff some time, probably after Money Tour ends with the full usage stats, in the other thread.

Add Cloak its good, idt Plate because SNR isn't that big of an issue and you aren't a reliable TH check because funny Knock Off variants.
Change order of abilities, MG should probably be replaced by Sheer Force as MG doesn't have the Lumina advantage anymore and getting walled by Psnceus otherwise on a mixed set is sad.
Cut Ice Scales no one uses that, Magic Guard 2nd ability, other abilities are also cool but I didn't end up bringing one.
A -> A- or lower, remove Ice Scales
Primal Kyogre is/should be ranked entirely on its RegenVest set which isn't that good. Improofing it is always a challenge, it doesn't make progress into stuff like Take Heart users it's supposed to check, and other special attackers like Diancie its not checking anyways. Ice Scales is fake for as long as Diancie is legal.
A- -> A, add Ice Scales
Psnceus is a very handy pick as a FC mon that checks most Diancie variants, making it convenient as a FC Arc that doesn't compromise checking Diancie as many Scales mons can struggle with that. Psnceus is also challenging to switch into a lot of times and its typing makes it difficult to exploit due to the reduction in Psychic moves. Ice Scales is one of the hardest Specs Diancie counters, doing what Scales Arc generally needs to do, and also has a fine matchup into other setup Arcs despite lack of STAB Judgment.
B+ -> B
I never get why this mon was/is compared to Chomp when they perform different roles; one is a Band wallbreaker, and one is a setup wallbreaker. Kyu-B's biggest issue is being very slow and being rocks weak, both of which limit its switch-in opportunities, particularly if you compare to the other slowish Kartana who has much easier time due to Rocks resistance and favourable mu into stuff like Fairyceus. Kyu-B cannot reliably use Miraidon as an opportunity due to rise in Dragon-move Mirai.
B -> B+, add Fur Coat either first or second
Ho-Oh has been consistently seeing good usage. It's surprisingly splashable as a MMX check Kartana soft check certain Deo-A check Ghostceus check etc while not being completely passive. I think Fur Coat might be better than Ice Scales since its a very solid solo Fur Coat by not being vulnerable to any of the big 4 physical attackers while Ice Scales can feel odd as a Thunder Cage weak.
B- -> B, Psysurge first, add Sheer Force
Going to start small, Deo-A is incredibly potent at fishing checks, from my experience trying to use it you are never beating everything and something relatively common will probably wall you but you can comfortably pick and choose what you want to be checked by. Nothing is faster than it in the meta as Blace is exceedingly rare and Psysurge denies all priority if that is the ability, making it very difficult to offensively deal with and as mentioned defensive can just be a fish. On top of that unlike MMX Deo is extremely hard to scout safely since the Deo user is/should never be allowing something to slow pivot in front of Deo since it could just die.
Regenerator is a set but idk if it fits all 3 rn are used
Add Sniper
Add a space before the name
Remove Fur Coat maybe Ice Scales add Primordial Sea
C -> B-, checks both Dragons, isn't super passive with its solid SpA, has Future Sight support, exceedingly slow, beats non-Grass move Kartana, can pretend to check MMX variants, definitely useable.
C -> B-, add Ice Scales
C -> B-
Both of these Arc-formes are competitive Arc-formes and better than the stuff in C. Fireceus with right ability checks one Diancie variant and hard checks the other, FC checks Kartana and Kyu-B, soft checks MMX, Scales does normal Scales stuff. Waterceus checks Diancie, does similar stuff to MBro mentioned above but difference is consumes Arc Slot isn't slow can't Future Sight but is much less vulnerable to SpA letting it handle MMX variants better if FC and can Scales for Diancie.
UR -> C, Ice Scales, Sand Stream, Levitate
UR -> C, Ice Scales, Regenerator
UR -> C, Ice Scales, Fur Coat?, Sand Stream?
UR -> C, Magic Guard
All of these are stat-based sapblockers with reasonable defensive utility especially with a defensive ability. Nihilego checks some Diancie, Arc formes, and can check Etern. Toxapex checks Diancie, sponges Kart and Kyub. Shuckle actually has near Arceus bulk esp with a defensive nature, has extremely low HP making Pain Split good, and is surprisingly not as passive as expected due to 230 Def Body Press. Blissey has seen more usage than the others as a sapblocker that also easily affords MG to avoid all chip damage including from TCage.
Note that these have been used (maybe not Pex but I know its been strongly considered on more than one occasion for a serious team) in tours.

 

[Notagamer]

Kyurem black is compared to m chomp because they can both be choice banders, chomp isn’t only setup. Also


And

Need to link to the analysis lol
edit: fixed
Also I have a ranking to make.

B- ———> B/B+
Mega perts strong typing and statline allows it to check many threats on ice scales sets such as miraidon, blacephalon and a solid amount of deoxys attack variants, while also being a solid option for hazard removal with a high attack stab precipice for most spinblockers and a solidly low speed flip turn, regenvest variants also allow it to slot in knock off, exemplifying its ability to be a solid utility pokemon. Haven’t seen much out of fc but I doubt it’s bad.

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

C -> B- (Regenerator)

Max spdef regenvest bliss is by far the best take heart arc check available. Last time I recommended Magic Guard but Regenerator allows bliss to be less passive because you don't have to spend turns clicking recover. Clear Smog or Dragon Tail are great anti setup tools. It's almost impossible to win with take heart arc when the opponent has a regenvest clear smog blissey unless you have all hazards or the Blissey is poisoned and knocked. Special dragons like eternatus, miraidon, palkia and dialga also gets walled and sap blocked. If you think blissey has no offensive presence you can think again because you can run Ruination to cut the opponent's hp in half. Ruin + salt cure/mortal/Infestation is a deadly combination which lets even weak mons like blissey heavily cripple fur scales mons in 2-3 turns. Also believe it or not, regen bliss is one of the best specs diancie check, only taking about ~30% from boomburst. Even if the diancie espeeds it's not that bad because they are locked into espeed and it is often the only physical move which you can pp stall. If you find yourself struggling vs take heart arc, try this mon out.

 

[Chessking345]

VR Update!​

This is the last VR update before DLC drops to reflect meta changes observed from the final rounds of the Money Tour and World Cup. We are still sorting out the lower ranks with a WIP DNU rank so stay tuned for that. Going over the changes:

Rises
Mewtwo-Mega-X | A+ -> S-
Mega Mewtwo X has cemented itself as the scariest offensive Pokemon in the meta. Its defining traits allow it to run dangerous mixed sets that pick and choose its coverage moves depending on what it wants to beat and get improofed by. Lumina Crash ban has only slightly impacted it as it has quickly picked up using Freezing Glare/Psychic on its mixed sets to similarly pressure Pokemon like Arceus-Poison.

Diancie-Mega | A -> A+
Mega Diancie is one of the most warping Pokemon of the tier. Its strong utility with Extreme Speed and raw power allows it to easily fit into teams as a wallbreaker that provides security with speed control, and its ludicrous power demands significant prep when teambuilding. Between its sets it can require multiple checks to handle and even against sufficiently prepared teams it can still make progress through Stone Axe or Volt Switch.

Arceus-Poison | A- -> A
Arceus-Poison is generally regarded as one of the most viable Diancie checks in the meta. Fur Coat stands up to it quite well while soft answering the other physical threats bar Mega Garchomp, while Ice Scales is more reliable into Specs and can do normal Ice Scales Arceus stuff.

Celesteela | B -> B+
Celesteela is an increasingly common presence on teams due to the utility and role compression it can bring. RegenVest sets do standard RegenVest stuff, while providing a reasonably slow pivot and notably soft checking Mega Garchomp without being a Fur Coat.

Ho-Oh | B -> B+
Ho-Oh is a solid Fur Coat choice in the meta, being one of the most reliable answers to Kartana while checking other threats like variants of Mega Mewtwo X and rare Diancie sets without Rock STAB. Ice Scales however has been much worse with the ubiquity of Thunder Cage and its vulnerability to Mortal Spin on top.

Deoxys-Attack | B- -> B
Deoxys-A has seen success in recent tournaments. Despite being harder to manage and pilot when compared to Mega Mewtwo X, it distinguishes itself with its notable speed tier and high difficulty of scouting, making it a dangerous threat to dance around without confirming the coverage.

| UR -> Ranked
These 4 all are ranked due to their decent defensive utility combined with a natural sapblock, allowing them to run defensive abilities to help amplify their defensive capabilities.

Drops
Miraidon | A+ -> A
Miraidon dislikes general metagame trends since the last VR update where it got a rise. Fur Coat is a Fur Coat that cannot handle either physical Dragon and Kartana commonly techs coverage for Miraidon, while Mewtwo has special moves to bypass it. Magic Guard is a rising set however that helps Miraidon maintain a position in the meta, as it can be challenging to switch into long term.

Arceus-Fairy | A -> A-
Arceus-Fairy still is a solid defensive presence by virtue of its typing. Fur Coat serves as one of the better Mega Garchomp checks while checking Kyurem-B and Band Mewtwo X, but loses terribly to Kartana. Ice Scales is annoyed by the fact it cannot hit Mega Diancie super effectively, being weak to Eternatus, and being extremely vulnerable to slow pivot into Kartana unless it's carrying Fire move.

Arceus-Ground | B+ -> B
Metagame trends have generally not been unfavourable to Arceus-Ground other than an uptick in Celesteela, as it has a reasonably good matchup into Mega Diancie and Thunder Cage immunity is incredibly useful. However, Arceus-Ground has not seen notable usage for quite a while and it has a good case of 4MSS between checking opposing Take Heart, dealing with Imposter, and not being fodder for Celesteela and Ho-Oh.

Dialga-Origin | B+ -> B
Heavily annoyed by the meta developments that are not necessarily for it but are all detrimental to it. Miraidon packing Dragon STAB prevents non-SpD Dialga-O from reliably handling it, Kartana running Headlong Rush prevents Fur Coat from being a check, Water-types like Kyogre being worse. It still remains decent as a Doom Desire pivot, a Knock sponger on Magic Guard sets, and weird typing that lets it block some Mortals.

Kyogre-Primal | A -> B
A very significant drop. Primal Kyogre's Water typing does it no favours with a weakness to Salt Cure, Mortal Spin, and Thunder Cage. Its low Def prevents it from checking Mega Diancie, its Speed is high compared to other RegenVests, and its also vulnerable to special attackers like Miraidon. Even Eternatus, which it is supposed to check decently, can fish for Sludge Bomb Poisons, while Palkia-O can setup unless there is a Diancie in the back.

Kyurem-Black | B+ -> B
Kyurem-B is threatening but is harder to utilize when compared to the other physical threats due to its slow speed and Rocks-weakness. Unlike Mega Garchomp, who can effectively utilize a setup set whilst having generally better longevity (which is why the two cannot be compared, Band Chomp is a thing but not its best set), Kyurem-B is also reliant on repeatedly switching-in to constantly apply pressure which is hampered by its Rocks weakness. Glacial Lance's good neutral, but less relevant super effective coverage also makes forcing out threats without being crippled somewhat difficult.

Steelix-Mega | B+ -> B
Mega Steelix does not appreciate 100% Torch Song usage on Miraidon, its low SpD being a hinderance in its matchup against Specs Diancie and not Fairy Arceus formes, and its typing leaving it weak to stuff like V-create from stuff it can otherwise attempt to scout, and thus faces competition from stuff like Celesteela, Dialga-O, and even Registeel.

Blacephalon | B- -> Lower
Blacephalon suffers greatly from its rocks weakness similarly to Kyurem-B, especially considering its role as a fast pivot and revenge-killer. While its power is good and has strong 2HKO potential, it struggles immensely with hitting OHKOs to force threats like Miraidon and Arceus out.

Gardevoir-Mega | B- -> Lower
Mega Gardevoir has lacked usage for a while. While being an appealing alternative to Specs Diancie for its good matchup into the common Poisonceus, Mega Gardvoir lacks the utility from Extreme Speed, and it doesn't have a strong enough secondary STAB due to Psystrike's interaction with both FurScales to pressure Poisonceus if it is boosted.

| Ranked -> UR
Both of these are outclassed and there are no real reason to use either. Magearna's middling bulk is not compensated enough by its Fairy-typing as other Steel-types (not Dialga-O) can deal with Dragon-types sufficiently, the only Fighting-type and offensive Dark-type destroy Magearna anyways. Scizor's niche lied in its typing, decent physical bulk, and a strong First Impression, but now First Impression is basically worthless with no Mega Mewtwo Y to hit and Deoxys running Psychic Surge, the physical bulk isn't sufficient to reliably check the physical Pokemon, and its severely hampered by a crippling V-create weakness.

Other Stuff
Covert Cloak and Spooky Plate have been added to Imposter's item list. Cloak should've long been present as a strong alternative due to its matchup against Mortal Spin and Spirit Shackle improofing ideas, while Spooky Plate, despite still being niche, is an easy patch for teams that are otherwise sound but have a Ghostceus weakness, though it loses to Knock Off variants.

Blissey was not voted higher because, while it is really good at handling select special attackers, it doesn't do a lot beyond that, meaning you have a SpD slot that fails to check threats such as Mega Diancie or the mixed guys like Deoxys-A.
Re post above: Regenerator gives you a better matchup into Specs Diancie but in return you are greatly increasing vulnerability to Mortal Spin and hazards, which are similar to the issues that Primal Kyogre has and can greatly compromise your a, and again you are running a SpD slot that cannot handle any of the Mixed special attackers.

Mega Swampert was not raised because its bulk is actually quite mediocre on both spectrums, making threats like MMX, Diancie, and Deo-A just brute force through requiring minimal to no chip.

 

[rightclicker]

VR noms

rises

C -> A-/A (add adapt, flare boost)
genuinely insane wallbreaker rn with very few consistent long term answers between specs adapt + knock or np flare boost
C -> B-/B
fast, mus well vs ghostceus, hooh and yveltal. lotc is worse but might still have to be here
D -> C (add furscales)
alright mdia check, however good sunsteel/kyu-b check (with fc)

speaking of sunsteel
(tough claws, adaptability) UR -> B-/B+
very threatening sunsteel user that can smash imp and steels with stab cc. speed tier and defensive typing is a bit awkward though
(mg/sf) C -> B-
best deo-a replacement options. both of them also absolutely smash the ever popular psnceus and thus is a great partner w/ mdia

drops

D -> UR
i'm ngl i've seen no one seriously using this, along with the ass typing (forcing boots or mg) & the fact that imp can mostly sit on it all day
C -> D/UR
hates the rise in mchomp and ashgren along with being forced to run boots

other (no particular order)

(make mg primary, fc has been heavily downtrending ever since kart and mmx ban)
(make regen primary, i've seen no one using prank to success)
(add prankster, screens on HO, softchecks and improofs a lot of stuff)
(add desoland)
(add tc, good ghostceus softcheck on HO)
remove

 

[Notgamingreally]

c———>B/B-
Blissey has been a crazy sapblocker rn and also counters the arising flutter mid
c———> B-
Blace can stick where it was really it’s one of the better revenge killers and also gained new stab options
c———> B/B+
Safely checks non bolt strike dragons, checks pretty much all the tidy up users, checks mega luc without electro.
Oh speaking of
UR———> B
Can hit imp with stab, sunsteel is a very cool move, sometimes can run prio, fails into some common coat mons however.
D———>UR
Fuck this doing after dia ban?
B+———>A/A-
Bias here but the addition of bolt strike allowing it to beat ho oh steela and waters is important as well as sunsteel doing more for adaptability/sword sets and it appreciates seeing diancie leave.
B———>B-
Haven’t seen this shit for a while the meta seems to have adapted maybe I’m wrong tho.
A———D/UR
Obligatory dia banned now laugh at this clown mon flipping burgers.
B- ———>B
It’s still a fundamentally good pokemon for the utility it brings.
D ———>UR
Really just blissey if you wanna fw th mons.
B- ———>B/B+
Lunalas capability as a setup sweeper on simple sets as well as its solid bulk and (while niche) psychic resist without taking the arc slot are solid. Regenvest is definitely a set but all three get used so.
c———>B-
Fc is better generically after Kartana ban, even packing sunsteel resist for some things. Scales is pretty decent too.
UR———>B-
While mega bro bulk is useful and all dondozo packs the ability to not be mega worn down by u turn and beating wicked users more.
c———>B-
Riskque nom but pogre and fairyceus have mega fallen off while diancie has been banned so it’s generally stronger into the metagame as well as hard beating ho oh and having an un knockable item
c———>UR
What this *actually* doing compared to other arc forms hell as a deso we have the chickens.
D———>B-/B
Diancie mega ban means its biggest competition (kyu w is shit lmao) is gone as well as less teams having a shared check I.e ho oh.
Abili shifts
yeah fc mid make it mg primary
add bounce ngl
make regen fc instead?
good mon add sf
add prim sea im the first to think of it trust

 

[Ezael_Stormblood]

UR -> C+/B- perhaps it's not the BEST but it makes a good desolate lands wallbreaker with blue flare and nasty plot, as well as being able to absorb damage with morning sun

 

[rightclicker]

UR -> C+/B- perhaps it's not the BEST but it makes a good desolate lands wallbreaker with blue flare and nasty plot, as well as being able to absorb damage with morning sun

i think if you run mono special resh you're missing out a lot on those cool sun boosted v-creates + growth

 

[Ezael_Stormblood]

i think if you run mono special resh you're missing out a lot on those cool sun boosted v-creates + growth

yeah that could also work, maybe we need to make a mixed set...

 

[Chessking345]

We've updated the VR and Speed Tiers (Role Compendium soon)! Note that some of this stuff is obviously subject to change because early meta and all, but most of it should be accurate.

Notable changes: Everything except Imposter

 

[Notgamingreally]

UR ———> C/D (Fur Coat)
Iron hands as a fur coat user features a similar niche to victini but instead of checking unecro it checks ash greninja and has more raw bulk to handle stuff like kyub and m luc is hard countered. It also resists Stealth Rock, has para immunity and is one of the less passive defensive Pokémon with t kick.

 

[rightclicker]

some more vr noms (in no particular order)

rises

D -> C
niche groundceus killer but it does it's job pretty well. big speed also lets you chase out random stuff like opp unec, etern or ashgren.

B- -> B/B+
moldy 2hkos the entire tier with rocks or spikes up. also outspeeds arc so they can't sap & cc hits celesteela neutrally which is actually another huge thing this has over mchomp. defensive sets has also proven themselves to be an effective agren softcheck.

C -> B-
"fairyceus but i already used an arc slot so i make up for it by outspeeding like 80% of the offensive meta"

C -> B- (add scales)
i might be biased but hear me out, this can compress both a fairy spdef and a mortal blocker all in 1 slot which is actually really nice

B -> B+
this has proven itself to be a very very effective sapblocker & catch (nearly) all special check, esp when it doesn't even take hazard damage & random chip from mortals/tcages/other stuff

drops

D -> UR
??? what the hell do these guys even do
melm is a fc that loses to headlong/vc and these are very common coverage, mmeta is outclassed by solg, msciz is a regenvest that hardloses to torch (ferro can stay D because at least it resists tcage and rocks)

B -> B-
doom regen in theory can fuck up a lotta stuff but then in practice either imp hards you and starts farming or they just switch into a doom resist regen and live 1 of your band hits and regen up again

 

[Tea Guzzler]

ok so VR is pretty ancient at this point, might as well post some nominations:

B+ -> A-
it's surprising that this is essentially the only special attacker that beats blissey without having to tech something on. flare boost is much better than specs imo; you have surprising longevity, don't instantly pack to spdef normals (of which there are a good amount) and still get to just delete most scales arc with moongeist.

B -> B+
this mon simply existing invalidates so many sets it's not even funny. sap users that can't tech for it easily, such as mscept, mirai, etern, and basically any take heart arc really suffer and can largely be shut down by just hard-switching blissey into them, taking at most 33 from life orb energy, and either firing back with ruination or just healing and sodding off; either way, the opponent has likely expended HP getting in that blissey easily prevents them from getting back (especially arceus), making these essentially unusable long-term, especially given the 3 magic guard mons all can't stay in and try to rob more recover PP due to ruination.

B -> B+
electric move mluc is the way. whether it be band tc bolt, lotc edrift, or mg volt switch, elec move is one of the easiest ways to get around sunsteel's only really viable natural answers in mbro and steela, leaving essentially only faster neutral targets (which don't exactly want to eat something like band sunsteel anyway) as reliable answers; add in a sapblocker and you cover for a large majority of these, with only the rare recover arc / mirai doing all that well. hesitant to put this any higher mostly because of the inconvenient speed and knock/salt both being more problematic than usual.

B -> B+
mostly nomming offensive ho-oh here, which i think is surprisingly good. stab v-create is obviously goated, but that combined with good natural bulk and a weakness to the coverage you're wanting to run anyway (electric) mean you can afford to do stuff like sd and actually scare imp. fire typing is also good as you can simply set up in slowbro / wisp users' face and all they can really do is teleport most of the time. relative physical frailty and item dependence mean you can't just bring it in on whatever and start clicking unfortunately; having to be scared of stone axe/salt cure's direct damage is also inconvenient, as are things like mg etern that you can't really sd past safely.

B- -> B/B+
plays similarly to ash-gren; it has less raw power but makes up for it with higher speed (letting you chase off opposing ash-gren and scare mirai / flutter) and not instantly keeling over to helmet. it's essentially just changing the support you need from knock to electric attackers, which is likely easier to bait; hitting imp with STAB also helps.

D -> C/B-
its a speed control mon to speed control the speed control mons; essentially, it's alakazam with less clunk but less power and it doesn't like sapblockers. decent or better matchup into most common regenvesters, chloro + energy is surprisingly decent coverage, torch enables some late-game sweeps. can't really go much higher thanks to the really dire blissey / scales fairy matchup.

A- -> B+
look i like this mon but there's no way this is in the same tier as ash-gren and etern. special sets are fake improof-wise and still run into issues with killpower thanks to needing magma storm + also just not killing blissey which leaves only the tidy up set. this is a good option for role compression (spdef removal that isn't regen is surprisingly rare) but you aren't realistically sweeping with this, as even if you play it very careful and keep it away from any regenvest users, having to kill fliers with spirit shackle simply doesn't cut it; you need to either already be at +6 against a non-fc non-sap steela / ho-oh to beat these (and setting up on these is actually impossible) and you simply do not beat yveltal ever.

A -> B
i really just don't understand what this mon is supposed to be doing nowadays. typing isn't as defensively stunning as you'd hope (with the big dragon being eternatus, which just clicks the poison move + fc sets being weak to the dragons' most common coverage option in sunsteel) and take heart sets (the only real sets) are free sapblocks with essentially no flexibility short of judge/plate vs moonblast/cloak. tidy up sets are notably worse than arc-ground due to being forced into cloak -> no knock sponging, and this mon can't realistically pull anything else fancy.

B -> B-
these just don't really do a lot. steelix's poor special bulk doesn't make up for its typing anymore, as just about every dragon energy comes with an asterisk about why steelix can't wall it (almost always because it's being used by a mon with torch, sap, and possibly also mglo) and cloak take heart mons with sap can still set up in the face of gigaton bar arc-fairy; the most steelix can do is threaten salt cure. similarly, pogre doesn't really have a valuable defensive typing, is almost always undersped when pivoting, and is mostly inept offensively with the most it can do being knock + salt. both also being knock + salt weak themselves is unbelieveably annoying.

B- -> C/D
imo these are fraud mons that fail to do anything better than the competition. dozo's one purpose is being a water-type that doesn't fold to ash-gren and u-turn, neither of which it can really do all that well (1 hazard layer + any chip leaves it in 2HKO range from gren flower trick, u-turn + any hazards leaves it in 2HKO range of chomp's tough claws glaive), only really stonewalling non-moldy korai. arc-psn is just take heart arc but bad, with actually zero set flexibility rather than arc-fairy's little, near-pointless defensive typing, largely inept offensive profile, and is also prime blissey fodder. giratina just doesn't really do anything short of prank sets beating most mluc and ho-oh, neither of which are really worth a whole mon slot just to do. dozo and gira can probably stay in C, but imo arc-psn goes to D.

C -> D
just use unecro or mzam

D -> UR
i have seen none of these perform nor are theoretical niches worth keeping them listed for (spare maybe reshiram with like growth v-c draco synth? thats still stretching it though). gira-o is just a worse version of -a which is already kinda bad, melm theoretically walls gren but loses long-term without helmet + audino is simply better in this regard (also its weak to literally every other big physical attacker in addition to v-create), victini doesn't wall anything, ray doesn't kill anything, mmeta doesn't do anything, arc-dark's only real purpose is walling mzam which can be done without losing the arc slot simply by using meloetta.

 

[Notgamingreally]

B ———> D/C
I have no idea what arceus water does compared to dondozo or Slowbro m, hit hard by bolt strike, walls an absolute none of the mixed mons, just bad in general, weak to salt cure results in (among other problems) little ability to run setup.
D ———> C/B-
Plays similar to mscept but physical. Prim sea steels have fallen off, it’s gained bolt strike as an option to beat waters and steela harder, the common fcs are either worn down by u turn or gunk shot.

 

[rightclicker]

B ———> D/C
I have no idea what arceus water does compared to dondozo or Slowbro m, hit hard by bolt strike, walls an absolute none of the mixed mons, just bad in general, weak to salt cure results in (among other problems) little ability to run setup.

well uh for one it's fast and bulkier

but yes i generally agree that waterceus is not worth B atm, but C/D seems too harsh. maybe B-?

 

[Notgamingreally]

well uh for one it's fast and bulkier

but yes i generally agree that waterceus is not worth B atm, but C/D seems too harsh. maybe B-?

What does faster and bulkier do when you lose to sapblockers exactly
Bulkier doesn’t mean anything when you can’t wall mixed mons. You die to unecro, blaze, blace, mixed mega luc
B- is for the mons that can perform well on specific structures but aren’t exactly splashable, think palk, kyub, registeel
C showcases mons that have their uses but also have too many flaws or opportunity cost to end up in B- I.e arc base, blaziken M, Meloetta.
D is just for mons so specific you’ll put it once in the builder and probably forget it I.e victini.
Arc water just fits better in the latter two categories

Also switch ice scales and fur coat positions on maud.

 

[rightclicker]

What does faster and bulkier do when you lose to sapblockers exactly
Bulkier doesn’t mean anything when you can’t wall mixed mons. You die to unecro, blaze, blace, mixed mega luc

you won’t get sapblocked if you run regular recovery (which you can because you’re improofing using shackle 99% of the time, a feat both dozo and bro has to go out of their way to achieve)
as for mixed attackers, don’t dozo and bro die to those too? if anything arc can sometimes eat attacks from them better because of superior special bulk

 

[Fish Gaming]

Can we please add Alt Guy's wandering spirit Dialga-O set to the setpedia?

Dialga-Origin @ Adamant Crystal
Ability: Wandering Spirit
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Thunder Cage
- Ruination
- Strength Sap

Copied from his post:
This is not the first time I have recommended this set. This dialga is the ultimate Regenerator counter. Unless the regen mon has Precipice Blades or Salt Cure, you can always switch this into u-turn, knock off rapid spin, stone axe and other contact moves. Doing so will swap both mons' abilities, granting Dialga Regenerator and giving your opponent the useless Wandering Spirit. But that's not all. The Doom Desire -> Thunder Cage -> Ruination trifecta is an extremely lethal combination which lets you do what I call "bursting". Bursting is a term from video games where you deal a large amount of damage in a short amount of time. This Dialga can burst all by itself or be paired with a nuke to suddenly OHKO a mon. Furthermore, you're also imposter-proof because of how Strength Sap makes you recover more hp. Other moves you can try include Torch Song, Scald and Whirlwind.
---
Oh yeah also time for my VR noms now
C -> B-
Honestly quite underrated IMO. Its speed tier is just right to outspeed basically everything relevant, it can run Trick to cripple pokemon, and it can work past a decent few mons with raw power alone.
D -> C/B-
Other people have explained this better than I ever will.
D -> B-
Legit just physical Mega Sceptile. Except even more cracked. This thing picks up so many random kills its hilarious.
C -> D
Outclassed by unec and mzam

---
minor things:
tinted lens mblaziken has been spreading a bit, maybe add that to the sets vr

 

[Notgamingreally]

B+ ———> B/B-
I don’t understand this mon actually, all three sets are hindered by paltry bulk and inability to threaten much
Fc only shuts down sunsteel-only mega garchomp and soft checks gren with helmet, that’s it, if it runs helmet it’s threatened by the ever stupid salt cure.
Prim sea steels in general have been mid since dia + kart ban but steela is also mid for this purpose compared to the alr mid prim sea registeel because its bulk is bad so blaziken can still run over it, ho oh also runs elec move commonly these days so das not great. Its only use is really answering groundceus.
Regenvest is probably its greatest set however it loses to torch users rather quickly and is thunder cage weak.

 

[Chessking345]

B+ -> A-

+, Flutter has really solid mu into most of the spds, outspeeds gren, typing and spd make it hard to rk at full health from several special threats. Disagree with the flare > specs through, two sets do different things and while specs does have more issues with spd normals it also has better matchups into other stuff and isn't prone to be chipped down into rk range. (theres also only 2 relevant spd normals both of which can be teched and supported for.

B -> B+

=, Bliss has an undeniable impact on meta but the meta is starting to adapt around it and there are counterplay options and ways for teams to support mons that do struggle heavily with it. It also does have a case of 4mss with almost mandatory tp heal ruin with last move several options. Improofing also generally requires a physical breaker which can be rather linear in teambuilding. A raise is justifiable but I also think there could be the "groudon syndrome".

B -> B+
B -> B+
B- -> B/B+

- on all of these.
For Luke the nom makes it seem like elec move is an innovation when Bolt Strike itself was always basically mandatory anyways and I think its current ranking reflects what its supposed to be. The speed is a huge let down when its frail and basically loses to every single mon faster than it while not having as much immediate power as something like chomp (whos speed tier isnt that much worse when considering defensive mons)
Offensive Ho-Oh is interesting but I don't think its so strong to warrant a raise (moreso comparing it to the current B+ stuff). It has 4mss because its going to be hard walled by either sap or dragons and it has some vulnerabilities, defensive utility also isnt that great without a bulk increasing ability.
Koraidon sounds great on paper but has like no real power meaning 0 force out capabilities (STAB does 47.5-56 to Arc, Gren does 70.9-83.3, significantly higher raw damage output)

D -> C/B-

=, Chloroblast is deceptively strong and spammable sometimes.

A- -> B+

+, I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning though. Tidy Up is never played as a sweeper its merely there for removal and a potential threat that forces opponent to go into certain mons. Scales weak to almost no SpA moves and having good physical moves to threaten zam and flutter with is still a nice trait but A- is definitely high for it.

A -> B

-, I agree with a drop to A-/B+ but B is too far. Fairy's typing remains extremely good against threats like AshGren (forces surging which can be punished by helmet) and being a valuable dragon immunity. Sunsteel weakness isn't good but stuff like setup chomp never run it and so its basically only on band and fairyceus' existence deters them from clicking stab.

B -> B-

Steelix drop agree, Kyogre disagree. Kyogre's biggest issue is being weak to the common utility moves but outside of that its incredibly annoying to switch into. Imp has to deal with knock and poison, general stuff don't want to eat scalds, and take heart arcs lose momentum every time. Not to mention its still an excellent specs sponge against threats like zam and flutter, and pivots into etern.

B- -> C/D

- on Dondozo. You claim how dondozo struggles against Gren Flower Trick if it gets chipped but tell me what Gren check does not struggle when they are chipped (Aud/Arc take similar amounts from Surging as Dozo from FTrick) and Dozo at the very least is forcing gren to consider clicking a non STAB because of its presence. The calcs against band chomp are also similar to MBro except it doesn't instantly fold after U-turn.

B ———> D/C

Waterceus has a very clear niche which is the fat water type that does not immediately fold to Electro Drift (it still does a huge amount but it can take hit and retaliate against eg TC Chomp). It also outspeeds most of the stuff it is looking to check, and so despite taking more from stuff like Bolt Strike it doesn't require as much health management as the slower 2 waters to avoid 2HKOs on the switch.

D ———> C/B-

I think Beedrill's biggest issue is that you cannot hit everything and the stuff you don't hit are really hard to bypass. You want STABs, V-create for Imp and steels, Bolt strike for waters and flyings, but then you get hard walled by stuff like Ghostceus and Etern and you never can break through. Also its running a bug type pivot that fails to revenge kill zam so like, just use pheromosa it gives you more team utility by making the team not require a hard zam check but only a pivot sponge.

C -> B-

Rocks weak is extremely bad for a mon that wants to repeatedly have opportunities to fire off attacks, and it also has a koraidon issue of lacking enough power to force neutral targets out.

B+ ———> B/B-

Steela should be treated more as an utility mon through its typing rather than a key part of a defensive core. Its mortal blocking potential is very respectable with a lack of ground weakness, and despite being weak to a bunch of common spa moves like torch and cage they aren't very strong enough to deny its pivoting should AV be intact. B+ could be a bit high though so not going to disagree with B.

A -> A-
Ghostceus is still a great mon and one of the few Arc formes that can easily run Recover without being sus to Imp but its biggest issue is if its run as a FC it demands a teammate to cover Ashgren which usually ends up stacking FCs which is rather suboptimal.
A- -> A (Gren above Zam)
These two are pretty much the most threatening breakers in the meta atm. Ashgren is pretty polarizing with exceptional ohko potential and just raw power strongly forcing sap as responses as recover is simply insufficient, which ends up being exploitable. Zam is the fastest relevant mon and practically can break anything in theory by getting every right predict as pretty much every psychic resist is getting blasted by a coverage move.
A- -> A (bottom)
Arguable but Etern is very versatile and always threatening. MG is impossible to deal with passively, Teravolt heavily pressures scales, and Unaware provides a remarkable amount of role compression.
B+ -> B/B-
Physical wall that is kind of weak to everything. Same issue with Ghostceus in it never checks Ashgren so forces another check but unlike Ghostceus its also highly vulnerable to all the electric moves flying around and uturn. Future Sight is cool but not enough.
B -> B-/C
This never has the bulk it needs to check anything. As a water immune to electric it sounds cool but stuff like Chomp just blow past with STAB so the only niche is beating Fire/Elec Hooh which you can do with a dragon! SpD sets get blown away by zam flutter etc.

Haven't looked through lower ranks yet.