Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

[Rumors]

I mentioned it last time and the only reason that keeps me from agreeing is it bans the not-overpowered megas, like Manectric, Absol, Ampharos, Charizard-X, and others. Plus if it's purely to neuter offense, banning all megas removes several defensive Pokemon, like Slowbro, Audino, and Venusaur (who doesn't see a lot of use these days, but is still there).

Worth noting, IMO, that almost all of the problematic megas are already Uber in standard, with the notable exceptions of Diancie, Lati@s (mainly because Soul Dew), and Charizard-Y (pre-ORAS).


Also, figures that suspect reqs would end the day before I get home. Granted, I can't really play until tomorrow anyway since I'm not actually home yet and won't be for a few hours (yay for being bored in a car).

 

[Funbot28]

Maybe we can issue clauses that only allow Mega Ray with DA, P-Don and P-Ogre with their respective orbs and the Mega Mewtwos with their mega stones as they are the most problematic, which can also limit spamming these mons all in one team due to the capability of only mega evolving once per battle. I believe this can help balance the current meta, without outright banning all these mons.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

If Mega Ray, Primal Don, and Primal Ogre are banned, they would still be usable via mega-evolving, just fyi. That's basically what's going to happen (assumedly) except without the Mega Mewtwos being included in that. If they're suspected and/or banned next, then that would also apply to them

 

[Funbot28]

If Mega Ray, Primal Don, and Primal Ogre are banned, they would still be usable via mega-evolving, just fyi. That's basically what's going to happen (assumedly) except without the Mega Mewtwos being included in that. If they're suspected and/or banned next, then that would also apply to them

Oh thanks for clarifying

 

[Adrian Marin]

I know what I'm saying is probably unwise, but what if we restrict "legendary" Mega Pokemon and Primals, i.e, Rayquaza, Diancie, Mewtwo Y and X, Kyogre, and Groudon. The term "legendary" is uncompetitive, however, it seems Gamefreak intends to give future legendary megas absurdly high stats. I think this is a viable solution, as the "legendary" mega Pokemon ORAS brought were what made ORAS BH unhealthy.

 

[MAMP]

I don't think it's a good idea to blanket ban any category of Pokemon, be it 'megas' or 'legendary megas'. In the context of BH megas are no different to any other Pokemon, and to ban megas while leaving alone the legendary Pokemon with the same or greater BST is just silly.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I don't think it's a good idea to blanket ban any category of Pokemon, be it 'megas' or 'legendary megas'. In the context of BH megas are no different to any other Pokemon, and to ban megas while leaving alone the legendary Pokemon with the same or greater BST is just silly.

This would make sense, except that the current suspect is a suspect of the hoenn trio, in essence, a category. If a blanket ban were to help the metagame in the same way banning the hoenn trio would, I don't see why it's so unreasonable. And yes, I understand that the hoenn trio are extremely dominant right now and are probably the highest priority, but the Mewtwo pair are definitely suspect-worthy as well, thanks to their absurd Protean sets.

 

[TheCommadore]

This would make sense, except that the current suspect is a suspect of the hoenn trio, in essence, a category. If a blanket ban were to help the metagame in the same way banning the hoenn trio would, I don't see why it's so unreasonable. And yes, I understand that the hoenn trio are extremely dominant right now and are probably the highest priority, but the Mewtwo pair are definitely suspect-worthy as well, thanks to their absurd Protean sets.

The difference is that we individually evaluated each of ray, don, and ogre and decided to ban(or not) based on the merits of their own strength, not based on their classification as a legendary pokemon. We should continue this process and keep reevaluating and testing the strongest pokemon in the tier. If we were to implement a mega-legends clause or a bst clause we would not only be banning the already banned pokemon, but also others who have not been suspect tested. We should test things like the mewtwo forms instead of drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and auto-banning everything that looks scary. What is more is the fact that we don't know what new legendary mega's will be released in the future. We could get things like mega gira with +15 to each offense and +70 to speed, who would hardly be better than gira now and in no way overpowered, but would be caught by a blanket legend-mega ban. It could go the other way and be mega-gira with +50 to each defense and shadow tag as its mega ability. We don't know what gamefreak will throw at us and it would be silly to prejudge future pokemon in a future meta. Just like with the primals we will need to evaluate the individual pokemon, not the catagory.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

When we were doing the suspect voting for GKR, a lot of us voted No Ban on Ray because it wasn't broken without Aerilate. I think a large number of us think that something needs to be done about -ates in the current meta, and we should start talking about that so we can have another suspect eventually. Here are some possibilities:

• Ban any/all of -ate
• Ban Rayquaza + Aerilate
• Ban STAB -ate
• Do nothing

There may be some more that I've missed, but I think these are the main options.

I personally think that Aerilate Ray is broken because it can get through any of its common switchins with ease. Here are the things that often switch in to Ray:

• Fur Coat Chansey + Eviolite
  
• Soundproof Slowbro-Mega
• Registeel with Magic Bounce, Levitate, Flash Fire, Prankster, or Soundproof
  
• Aegislash with some ability (haven't seen this one too much, but I ran Prankster)
• Sturdy Shedinja
  
• Maybe some others, but these are the main ones

Rayquaza-Mega can get through any of these counters with ease, which forces you to run 2 or 3 counters to it or rely on good predicts.

• Fur Coat Chansey is beaten by Spore, Dark Void, Close Combat, or Knock Off.
• Soundproof Slowbro-Mega is beaten by Techno Blast
• Registeel is beaten by Close Combat, Low Kick, Magma Storm/V-Create (sometimes) or Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows/Earth Power (sometimes)
• Aegislash is beaten by Magma Storm/V-Create or Precipice Blades
• Sturdy Shedinja is beaten by Magma Storm

And this assumes that you've managed to keep the relevant Pokemon at full health when Ray switches in. Additionally, Registeel and Aegislash can't really do anything significant to Mega Ray besides forcing it to switch out to conserve PP. And if you have multiple of these Pokemon (which is a very good idea IMO), it becomes a guessing game to figure out which coverage the Ray has to see which member of your team can safely switch in.

As a final point, I'd just like to say that yes, I voted No Ban on Mega Ray. I did this because I don't believe that Ray's other sets are broken. I believe that if Aerilate Ray is removed from the meta, the game will be much more balanced.

 

[Lcass4919]

When we were doing the suspect voting for GKR, a lot of us voted No Ban on Ray because it wasn't broken without Aerilate. I think a large number of us think that something needs to be done about -ates in the current meta, and we should start talking about that so we can have another suspect eventually. Here are some possibilities:

• Ban any/all of -ate -why is an ability banworthy just because 2 pokemon who have insane offensive stats put it to good use. that's like saying poison heal made primal kyogre broken, rather then kyogre itself. the only difference being that ray actually has MORE good sets then that.
• Ban Rayquaza + Aerilate -i would initially agree with this, but again im going to point at above, and ask why rayquaza gets this "special treatment" while kyogre doesn't. many pokemon with poison heal can be argued to be in the same league, so why didn't ANYONE advocate THAT alongside this? nitpicking? finding an exuse to keep it? why?
• Ban STAB -ate
• Do nothing

There may be some more that I've missed, but I think these are the main options.

I personally think that Aerilate Ray is broken because it can get through any of its common switchins with ease. Here are the things that often switch in to Ray:

• Fur Coat Chansey + Eviolite
  
• Soundproof Slowbro-Mega
• Registeel with Magic Bounce, Levitate, Flash Fire, Prankster, or Soundproof
  
• Aegislash with some ability (haven't seen this one too much, but I ran Prankster)
• Sturdy Shedinja
  
• Maybe some others, but these are the main ones

Rayquaza-Mega can get through any of these counters with ease, which forces you to run 2 or 3 counters to it or rely on good predicts.

• Fur Coat Chansey is beaten by Spore, Dark Void, Close Combat, or Knock Off.
• Soundproof Slowbro-Mega is beaten by Techno Blast
• Registeel is beaten by Close Combat, Low Kick, Magma Storm/V-Create (sometimes) or Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows/Earth Power (sometimes)
• Aegislash is beaten by Magma Storm/V-Create or Precipice Blades
• Sturdy Shedinja is beaten by Magma Storm

And this assumes that you've managed to keep the relevant Pokemon at full health when Ray switches in. Additionally, Registeel and Aegislash can't really do anything significant to Mega Ray besides forcing it to switch out to conserve PP. And if you have multiple of these Pokemon (which is a very good idea IMO), it becomes a guessing game to figure out which coverage the Ray has to see which member of your team can safely switch in.
Everything can get past their counters via coverage. this is NOT an argument, mega mewtwo x with protean can EASILY run draco to beat fur coat giratina for example. on top of that, i only run one counter to ray, and possibly 1 or 2 checks, nothing too "extreme" most of the time i don't even attempt to prepare for it. mega rayquaza can 2hko registeel with a RESISTED hit. which is something no atespeeder CAN do.

As a final point, I'd just like to say that yes, I voted No Ban on Mega Ray. I did this because I don't believe that Ray's other sets are broken. I believe that if Aerilate Ray is removed from the meta, the game will be much more balanced.

i bolded most of my points on your post, but now im just going to illiterate my question: why is ate suddenly broken when it gets 2 good abusers. if it was broken before, when we had LESS options to deal with them, why weren't they talked about more then? we actually laughed at the idea of a suspect test. why is it now of all times we decide to suspect it. honestly, nobody has answered this, and i'm just going to assume you guys are making excuses to keep ray in, until i get a solid answer. in which case, i heavily oppose this suspect until i get clarification.

i dont even USE ates half the time, and even if they are gone, id be more then happy to use gale wings. i just want reason, thats all.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

i bolded most of my points on your post, but now im just going to illiterate my question: why is ate suddenly broken when it gets 2 good abusers. if it was broken before, when we had LESS options to deal with them, why weren't they talked about more then? we actually laughed at the idea of a suspect test. why is it now of all times we decide to suspect it. honestly, nobody has answered this, and i'm just going to assume you guys are making excuses to keep ray in, until i get a solid answer. in which case, i heavily oppose this suspect until i get clarification.

Please note that I wasn't saying I agreed with the idea of banning -ates outright. I wasn't saying that I recommended any of the ideas over any of the other ideas. I was just listing possible solutions to the issue that Rayquaza-Mega with Aerilate is broken. All of my proposed solutions involved banning Ray and Aerilate.

i dont even USE ates half the time, and even if they are gone, id be more then happy to use gale wings. i just want reason, thats all.

I'd argue that Gale Wings isn't broken as -ate on Mega Ray because it doesn't have STAB Boomburst with a 1.3 multiplier added in for good measure (the -ate boost). Also, Fake Out + Extreme Speed out damages Gale Wings Brave Bird, as well as the fact that Brave Bird has recoil damage. If we're talking special (or mixed) GW Ray, Oblivion Wing is significantly weaker than Aerilate Boomburst.

why is an ability banworthy just because 2 pokemon who have insane offensive stats put it to good use. that's like saying poison heal made primal kyogre broken, rather then kyogre itself. the only difference being that ray actually has MORE good sets then that.

This was actually discussed before the voting was concluded when Kl4ng brought up PHeal Ogre as a counterargument to Flint's no ban Ray stance. Here is his response: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...uspect-discussion.3515725/page-9#post-6305149

Everything can get past their counters via coverage. this is NOT an argument, mega mewtwo x with protean can EASILY run draco to beat fur coat giratina for example. on top of that, i only run one counter to ray, and possibly 1 or 2 checks, nothing too "extreme" most of the time i don't even attempt to prepare for it. mega rayquaza can 2hko registeel with a RESISTED hit. which is something no atespeeder CAN do.

This is a very good point and I agree with it completely.

Lcass, do you think that the meta would be more balanced if somehow -ate + Ray was banned? That's the main thing I was arguing.

 

[Lcass4919]

Lcass, do you think that the meta would be more balanced if somehow -ate + Ray was banned? That's the main thing I was arguing.

yes i do, i just dont think banning ate is the answer, which is the only non complex option on there.

 

[CactusCacti]

I've posted it many times and times over;
The problem with -ate lies in STAB, and with the gigantic statted, mega powerful move bursting behemoths we have this gen, its no wonder that we get the situation we are in.
30% bonus and extra coverage option isn't actually a bad by itself when you think about it, but when you add additional 50% from STAB, AND additional 20%, 30% or 50% from an item, we get the power creep situation we are in.

And frankly, it's just extremely annoying.
before ORAS, we didn't have the trouble with -ate on the same levels as we do now, due of the EV's making the defenses lot higher and lack of high stat STAB users, the best we had was Kyurem with its 170. But it had to use ice stab, ice was easy to wall due of Kyogre, other bulky waters, steel types, heatran, darma-z and few other niche fire types, etc.. Xerneas was good, but it's attack stats were just barely below line to reach the optimal level, and the real nuke was the boomburst, and boombursting gardevoir did the wall breaking better with tis 165 spa. aerilates were rare to begin with due of the issues of speed or otherwise lack luster stats, they had trouble going mixed and the ever lasting presense of kyurem hindered em further as they could not outspeed and KO them.
But now, we have 160 - 160 mixed fairy, 180 - 180 fucking flying type, lack of bulk and limited ate. Yet its still not good enough, if your ate checks and counters die, you're done for.

We had pixilate MMX for a short while as a trend to counter ray, but it fell, because frankly, it was good coverage and dealt with ray when surprised, but otherwise, it wasn't as good compared to protean sets, and with the limit of ate, you wanted to milk the power.

I'm still slightly bitter with Mega Ray's presence in the ladder due of its sheer gigantic power, specially in mixed side. But ate has always been a gigantic pain in the ass in BH.

Thus I would like to propoce that we just end dancing around with ate and kill its most powerful abusing, while keep it in for revenge kill and coverage potential
Just fucking ban -ate with STAB. That's it.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

i bolded most of my points on your post, but now im just going to illiterate my question: why is ate suddenly broken when it gets 2 good abusers. if it was broken before, when we had LESS options to deal with them, why weren't they talked about more then? we actually laughed at the idea of a suspect test. why is it now of all times we decide to suspect it. honestly, nobody has answered this, and i'm just going to assume you guys are making excuses to keep ray in, until i get a solid answer. in which case, i heavily oppose this suspect until i get clarification.

i dont even USE ates half the time, and even if they are gone, id be more then happy to use gale wings. i just want reason, thats all.

Why is everyone suddenly against -ate you ask? Multiple reasons. Firstly, I personally always thought Kyurem-B was overcentralizing and overpowered in XY. Second the anti -ate sentiment isn't as new as you make it seem. There was a suspect on -ate that resulted in the -ate clause. During that time there was discussion of Complex banning Fakespeed+ -ate. There was also discussion of banning -ate entirely but the idea never really caught on for the majority. Third, -ate sets became more well known and developed as the meta progressed. Boomburst/Techno Blast wasn't a staple on every -ate set right away. And I don't think we saw how ridiculous Boomburst could be until ORAS, at least that was the case for me personally. My Fourth point is that BH is undergoing the same sort of process STABmons did. For those of you who don't know, STABmons has banned, and is considering banning several Pokemon after a period of no bans (before Diggersby). People would have scoffed at the notion of banning Darkrai, Scizor, and Mega Aero, yet they all are banned, or likely to be soon. It just takes time for people to grasp how powerful something is. This is the case with -ate. This is why people want it gone.

Edit:

Everything can get past their counters via coverage. this is NOT an argument, mega mewtwo x with protean can EASILY run draco to beat fur coat giratina for example. on top of that, i only run one counter to ray, and possibly 1 or 2 checks, nothing too "extreme" most of the time i don't even attempt to prepare for it. mega rayquaza can 2hko registeel with a RESISTED hit. which is something no atespeeder CAN do.

This quote is just all over the place, first you say "anything can run coverage it's not an argument." Then you imply Mega Ray isn't that difficult to prep for or broken. if that is true explain this quote:

you have a point, but now we lost 2 checks to ray. groudon and kyog were 2 great checks to it, which helped stop it. now, basically every sweeper barring protean, and every wall barring steel types/fur coat chansey fear ray. rayquaza isnt like normal sweepers/wallbreakers, its not just some petty overkill mon that can be outprioritized/outsped and koed. and its not some weak pokemon who can only pick pokemon off if its at half hp. it can do both easily, and it hits hard too. the reason i found rayquaza broken WAS due to ate, but not solely due to ate. kyurem B and xern weren't nearly as bad as rayquaza was, rayquaza has POWER to back it up. sure it has checks, but so did groudon. groudon couldn't muscle past its counter: giratina, and yet all ray has to do is run T-arrows and its good to go...

so what if you have more room to devote to countering it. that doesn't mean its suddenly tame in the meta. Even the people who voted ban agrees its unhealthy for the most part, they just wanted a different approach to it. one i don't feel will solve anything since gale wings can EASILY take its spot. sacrificing powerful stab and priority, for a combination of both priority and power allowing it to run specs, alongside coverage that easily muscles past stuff that aeroblast/oblivion wing cant break through. and losing its best check in the tier: ate, the only reason its not used. this isn't a aspect of "if its broken" it was "is this the method of banning it they wanted to take" which is why flint(a conbanner) is now immediately proposing a ate ban. which is kind of needed now that ray is still rampant.

Pay particular attention to "coverage that easily muscles past stuff Aeroblast/Oblivion Wing can't break through." Why is coverage an argument for Gale Wings but not -ate? The answer is simple: coverage is an argument, in limited quantities. Aerialate +TArrows beats all of Ray's counters except Fur Coats and Chansey. This is an argument. Draco Meteor Mmx beating Giratina isn't that great of an argument cause it's the 3rd/4th coverage move and it only beat one counter. -ate Mega/non-Mega Ray and Diancie only need 2 types to beat all but Fur Coat Chansey, just like P-Don only needed Fire+Thousand Arrows to beat all but Fur Coat Tina and Mega Bro. I don't find either of these examples acceptable, and neither should you. Also how does Mega Ray beat Registeel with just FakeSpeed? It's not the only one to do it with Boomburst, Kyurem-W can manage the same feat. You accused us of making up excuses to save Mega Ray, but it seems more likely you are making up excuses to save -ate.

 

[thesecondbest]

Spore and The Toxic (Pun intended) Effect on The Metagame
BH needs a sleep clause. As is, the move Spore (or Sing if you want to run No Guard, or Dark Void if you expect Goggles) is completely overpowered.

t forces people to run poison heal, which is a good ability, but come on. Here's a post from the Chatter vote thread:
"Huge power is counterable, just run Fur Coat or Imposter or a faster Pokemon with Huge Power. Wonder Guard is counterable, just run Mold Breaker or status moves or an ability-cancelling move. Shadow Tag is counterable, just run Shed Shell or any move that switches the user out. AssistDon is counterable, run Fur Coat with an item that blocks Trick or even a faster Assist Team with a good move against Primal Groudon.

Anything is counterable, but it can be unreasonable, as is the case with the above examples and, in my opinion, Chatter."
Spore is also ridiculous. It forces you to run Poison Heal. It even goes past king shield, a very good move in BH.
"i say ban chatter, when people use chatter it loves a huge disadvantage to pokemon, unless they have a lum berry, ive seen people run gale wings chatter pokemon, giving people absolutely NO chance of landing a hit from the confusion, and as soon ask they switch or are unconfused, BOOM, death and confusion"
Replace gale wings with prankster and chatter with spore.
"But Chatter was broken because it was an attack and could go past magic bounce!"
"I know people have voiced arguments around the area of "Chatter goes through subs and is not blocked by Magic Bounce or any type immunity, so it's the most 'reliable' form of hax" but that's really completely arbitrary to draw the line at "Chatter is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban and everything else is okay". Still a pretty dumb argument but hey I tried
¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
Why should spore still be legal? It can be easily spammed and can beat your entire team. Sing is even worse. It's like chatter since it goes through subs as well.
Please discuss

 

[Imperator Romanum]

A comparison between Chatter and spore is redundant, Chatter had two permanent stops to it; Soundproof and Own tempo , one is a completely irrelevant ability in any circumstance outside of chatter/confuse ray the other barely has a niche in stopping boomburst. Chatter was also an offensive move, you can't continue to spam spore, even if you put your opponents team entirely to sleep he'll eventually wake up, Chatter could be boosted too tremendous levels and would sweep teams, while also making the mega hax reliant, and an argument could be made that sleep is also putting the outcome of the game up to RNG but it's pretty universally accepted that they're different things.

+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Chatter vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 209-246 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However, spore on the other hand has multiple checks to it. You have Magic bounce as a thing to fit on all kinds of teams, Poison heal is almost on every team and taunt is also an option to stop Spore. Safety goggles can be put on any pokemon to mintage spore. Spore is another healthy thing for the metagame that prevents it from being a "whoever sets up first wins" alongside Chansey, Topsy-Turvy ect

 

[ScorrchingTheaph]

Spore and The Toxic (Pun intended) Effect on The Metagame
BH needs a sleep clause. As is, the move Spore (or Sing if you want to run No Guard, or Dark Void if you expect Goggles) is completely overpowered.

t forces people to run poison heal, which is a good ability, but come on. Here's a post from the Chatter vote thread:
"Huge power is counterable, just run Fur Coat or Imposter or a faster Pokemon with Huge Power. Wonder Guard is counterable, just run Mold Breaker or status moves or an ability-cancelling move. Shadow Tag is counterable, just run Shed Shell or any move that switches the user out. AssistDon is counterable, run Fur Coat with an item that blocks Trick or even a faster Assist Team with a good move against Primal Groudon.

Anything is counterable, but it can be unreasonable, as is the case with the above examples and, in my opinion, Chatter."
Spore is also ridiculous. It forces you to run Poison Heal. It even goes past king shield, a very good move in BH.
"i say ban chatter, when people use chatter it loves a huge disadvantage to pokemon, unless they have a lum berry, ive seen people run gale wings chatter pokemon, giving people absolutely NO chance of landing a hit from the confusion, and as soon ask they switch or are unconfused, BOOM, death and confusion"
Replace gale wings with prankster and chatter with spore.
"But Chatter was broken because it was an attack and could go past magic bounce!"
"I know people have voiced arguments around the area of "Chatter goes through subs and is not blocked by Magic Bounce or any type immunity, so it's the most 'reliable' form of hax" but that's really completely arbitrary to draw the line at "Chatter is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban and everything else is okay". Still a pretty dumb argument but hey I tried
¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
Why should spore still be legal? It can be easily spammed and can beat your entire team. Sing is even worse. It's like chatter since it goes through subs as well.
Please discuss

Spore has tons of counters, although they can be beaten some way or another.
ITEMS
Safety Goggles (beaten by koff/other sleep move)
Lum/Chesto Berry (only works once unless harvest or faster recycle/beaten by koff)

POKEMON
Grass Types (beaten by other sleep moves)

MOVES
Taunt (beaten by faster priority or speed/mbounce/Oblivious/Aroma Veil)
Substitute (beaten by Infiltrator/Sing/faster priority or speed)
Sleep Talk (a bit luck based)
Snore (a bit luck based/not a great move)
Magic Coat (requires prediction)

ABILITIES
Poison Heal (beaten by Pecha/Lum Berry + Trick)
Magic Bounce (beaten by moldy/ability modifiers)
Overcoat (beaten by moldy/ability modifiers/other sleep moves)
Insomnia/Vital Spirit/Sweet Veil (beaten by moldy/ability modifiers)
Leaf Guard + Sun (requires weather)
Hydration + Rain (requires weather)
Early Bird/Shed Skin (not full counters)

Although some of these Spore counters are uncoventional, but there is no way that you can have a counter to all of them and still have a viable team. Dark Void/No Guard+Sing is uncommon enough to not be a problem, since they can be easily countered too.

 

[thesecondbest]

Spore has tons of counters, although they can be beaten some way or another.
ITEMS
Safety Goggles (beaten by koff/other sleep move)
Lum/Chesto Berry (only works once unless harvest or faster recycle/beaten by koff)

POKEMON
Grass Types (beaten by other sleep moves)

MOVES
Taunt (beaten by faster priority or speed/mbounce/Oblivious/Aroma Veil)
Substitute (beaten by Infiltrator/Sing/faster priority or speed)
Sleep Talk (a bit luck based)
Magic Coat (requires prediction)

ABILITIES
Poison Heal (beaten by Pecha/Lum Berry + Trick)
Magic Bounce (beaten by moldy/ability modifiers)
Overcoat (beaten by moldy/ability modifiers/other sleep moves)
Insomnia/Vital Spirit (beaten by moldy/ability modifiers)

Although some of these Spore counters are uncoventional, but there is no way that you can have a counter to all of them and stll have a viable team. Dark Void/No Guard+Sing is uncommon enough to not be a problem, since they can be easily countered too.

Moldy Dark Void on a faster mon beats everything but poison heal unless you OHKO it back. So how are you stopping that? And the worst part is (and imo the fundamental flaw of BH, I rarely play nowadays) you don't see it coming. You have to take a risk and stay in with your mon to scout. So you go for king's shield. But you go to sleep anyway. One mon put to rest and basically knocked out despite going for a protecting move. Is this really fair? Unless you know their set ahead of time, you can't stop the sleep.

 

[ScorrchingTheaph]

Moldy Dark Void on a faster mon beats everything but poison heal unless you OHKO it back. So how are you stopping that? And the worst part is (and imo the fundamental flaw of BH, I rarely play nowadays) you don't see it coming. You have to take a risk and stay in with your mon to scout. So you go for king's shield. But you go to sleep anyway. One mon put to rest and basically knocked out despite going for a protecting move. Is this really fair? Unless you know their set ahead of time, you can't stop the sleep.

FakeSpeed out-prioritizes, Spiky Shield/Protect scouts, 20% chance miss is still a thing, Lum/Chesto still works, Magic Coat still works, Prankster Taunt/Sub/Protect+Disable works, PH with protection works.
EDIT: If you see a moldy mon, u can usually predict a sleep move or hazards

 

[CactusCacti]

to be honest sleep clause would be pretty handy in BH cause its extremely infurating to play against sleep spam and it seriously over centralizes & causes paranoia pretty much forcing your item slot to be safety goggles if you're not immune to it in other ways. yeah spore is bit easier to prepare for but dark void, specially with mold breaker is maximun frustation to anyone who goes against it, specially on powerful & fast mons like gengar or mmy.

it's not so powerful cause you can prepare for it, but its a very big nuinsance that can greatly overwhelm you and has bit of rng depency with the 1 - 3 turns that can end up ruining a team that doesnt have poison heal or very specific sleep counter, and with no sleep clause, you pretty much need to as the risk of it is too great, which causes a very annoying risk and limit factor, specially on item slot.

presense of -ate tends to keep sleep spam under control to a degree as you can out priorities them, but not as much as sleep clause would, and specially with -ate being very annoying and limiting in general too and being another thing that should be looked into, I honestly really think these two would have to kinda go hand to hand, as without -ate, mega gengars and MMY's and other fast sweepers would certainly start the sleep spammening return of sporevoid electrict boogaloo

 

[Funbot28]

Time to discuss whats been brought up....

Ban Mega Rayquaza

I mean I did find it to be a problem during the suspect testing, but I find it was no way near as broken as the primals. To me it is very linear on what it does, as it's best set imo is Aerilate All-Out-Attacker. There is Gale Wings, but that is nowhere near as centralizing as Aerilate is. It is basically required to run an -ate check like Registeel, but then to realize that it could run TA, and 2HKO you on the switchin. To me Mega Ray is no the problem, more so -ate, which I will bring up now.

Ban -Ates

I find -ates to be the most difficult problem for BH atm. It is just so splashable on any mon, as there is are powerful moves they could use with it in Espeed, Fake Out and Boomburst. Even after the nerf to only one mon being able to abuse it, it still centralizes the meta, as any viable BH team need an -ate check, to make sure there team does not get recked. I can agree with the -ate+STAB ban, limiting it's use, or I can just see a global ban of all -ates, do to how powerful and senseless they are. I do not want to start doing complex bans like Mega Ray + Aerilate, as that can open doors to Pdon + Tinted Lens or Pogre + Poison Heal.

Sleep Clause

I mean sleep has always been an issue in competitive pokemon, as it really allows the opponent freedom and opportunity to do whatever they want, and is really spammable since there isn't a clause just like in AG. But, there is abilities like Magic Bounce and Poison Heal that counter this, which are quite common abilities in the meta. Im honestly not to sure on this one, and would like to see more discussion...

Ban Chansey

Wasn't brought up in this thread, but saw this being discussed on the OM room on Showdown. 100% disagree with this as if we remove Chansey, we would completely unbalance the metagame, leaving powerful setup sweepers to dominate. It would kinda be like banning Snorlax from GSC OU. Really don't want to see this happening, as it practically keeps everything in check.

​

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Can we focus on thing at a time? Sleep is hardly a problem compared to -ate, its a much more pressing issue. And trolls/idiots/noobs/CH players are always going on about banning Chansey its nothing new and we have had the debate a thousand times. We can't really suspect multiple things at one time, so in my opinion sleep clause discussion should be put on hold. The -ate issue was brought up first and is much more pressing.

 

[Lcass4919]

Time to discuss whats been brought up....

Ban Mega Rayquaza

I mean I did find it to be a problem during the suspect testing, but I find it was no way near as broken as the primals. To me it is very linear on what it does, as it's best set imo is Aerilate All-Out-Attacker. There is Gale Wings, but that is nowhere near as centralizing as Aerilate is. It is basically required to run an -ate check like Registeel, but then to realize that it could run TA, and 2HKO you on the switchin. To me Mega Ray is no the problem, more so -ate, which I will bring up now.

Ban -Ates

I find -ates to be the most difficult problem for BH atm. It is just so splashable on any mon, as there is are powerful moves they could use with it in Espeed, Fake Out and Boomburst. Even after the nerf to only one mon being able to abuse it, it still centralizes the meta, as any viable BH team need an -ate check, to make sure there team does not get recked. I can agree with the -ate+STAB ban, limiting it's use, or I can just see a global ban of all -ates, do to how powerful and senseless they are. I do not want to start doing complex bans like Mega Ray + Aerilate, as that can open doors to Pdon + Tinted Lens or Pogre + Poison Heal.

Sleep Clause

I mean sleep has always been an issue in competitive pokemon, as it really allows the opponent freedom and opportunity to do whatever they want, and is really spammable since there isn't a clause just like in AG. But, there is abilities like Magic Bounce and Poison Heal that counter this, which are quite common abilities in the meta. Im honestly not to sure on this one, and would like to see more discussion...

Ban Chansey

Wasn't brought up in this thread, but saw this being discussed on the OM room on Showdown. 100% disagree with this as if we remove Chansey, we would completely unbalance the metagame, leaving powerful setup sweepers to dominate. It would kinda be like banning Snorlax from GSC OU. Really don't want to see this happening, as it practically keeps everything in check.

​

Can we focus on thing at a time? Sleep is hardly a problem compared to -ate, its a much more pressing issue. And trolls/idiots/noobs/CH players are always going on about banning Chansey its nothing new and we have had the debate a thousand times. We can't really suspect multiple things at one time, so in my opinion sleep clause discussion should be put on hold. The -ate issue was brought up first and is much more pressing.

i wouldnt say "much more" since like, a majority of people have been against ates up until oras, and even then, other then you, piccolo, and a few others, nobodys really pushing the suspect. however, i do agree, ates are a more concerning issue then the the other three, and should be our main priority of discussion. mega ray will probably be brought up after ates, considering the abformented ates being one of the only actual checks to ray, but again, its not really an issue in peoples eyes considering the results of the suspect test, sleep clause is...actually, something im willing to consider in this current meta, beforehand this meta was very bulky, so stuff like unaware, and whatnot helped weaken sleep spam, so i feel like a sleep clause is something to look into AFTER our next test is resolved.


as for chansey...its a tricky issue. the reason people think its op, is because they have no "bh standard synergy", bh's balance is vastly different, and chansey solidifys that. as without chansey, this metagame would be SOOO much more unpredictable then it already is. the EV change boned us as it is, lets not worsen it.

 

[Rumors]

Spore has tons of counters, although they can be beaten some way or another.

Insomnia/Vital Spirit/Sweet Veil (beaten by moldy/ability modifiers)

Not quite. If you put an Insomnia/Vital Spirit user to sleep via Mold Breaker, they'll take up instantly. These two actually saw use last gen as a safer way to bypass Spore spam, since anti-Poison Heal sets using Gastro Acid and Simple Beam were far more common.


@ banning Chansey: This would be a somewhat pointless ban as Blissey would become the next S-ranked Imposter and do everything almost just as well. The only reason Blissey isn't a top tier threat is because of Chansey.

Oh, and then there's Fur Coat Chansey, but that's not what people are talking about when they want to ban Chansey.

 

[dsm77773]

I think that if we ban Chansey, ppl will come with another Imposter: Blissey. Blissey might not be Chansey but still the meta would face the same "problem": Imposter. Imposter after all is what makes BH over-centralized in a way we all know. Even if we ban Chansey, I expect ppl claiming Imposter or Blissey broken and the like. Furthermore, Blissey can't use Eviolite or Lucky Punch, so it has a good reason to run Spooky Plate, which would reduce the pool of Imposter-proof mons. The same applies to any Plate really.
So we've come up with Imposter, because it is the ability which is broken and overcentralizing. And... I agree. Yes we all know Imposter is broken. But think for a moment what BH would be with no Imposter.
Enter a metagame with crazy set-up everywhere. Stall is totally screwed because it relies on Unaware but hates the Ability Clause. It can't run more than 2 Unawares. But there's more. Offense immediately replies with Mold Breaker set-up, and Mold Breaker can ignore the Ability Clause via Turboblaze and Teravolt abuse to the point you can make a team of 6 Mold Breakers. So we've got a metagame absolutely based on setting up, Mold Breaker and friends, Unaware, and even Transform on stally teams as a poor man's Imposter. But Transform is far inferior to Imposter, with enough pressure which would be quite easy to apply with such extreme set-up, this can't be even put into work. Meanwhile, stuff like BellySpeed, Simple, Baton Pass, and priority define a very unhealthy meta, think STABmons but worse. If this is taken to the extreme we get a hyper offensive meta around kill-sack-kill-sack and battles are decided by the lead match-up.
Unless I'm missing something, a no-Imposter meta would look like this. And even if we only remove Blissey and Chansey, there isn't anything close to them enough to make Imposter strong and centralizing like it is (Wobbufet? Snorlax? Wailmer or Wailord?). Mission accomplished...! No. You're just two steps closer to a drastic shift to a very unhealthy metagame.
Someone compared it to GSC Snorlax. Well I'd say yes and no. I'll start with no, no because in old gens stability is prefered over anything and only really, really broken shit is banned. But yes, GSC Snorlax enables offense and Imposter prevents crazy set-up; they both make the game more balanced and centralized around them at the same time.
And when you go high up on the ladder, ppl is so prepared for Imposter Chansey that you can't use it for anything but scout. This at the same time means Imposter can be dealt with. Do not compare this with the portion of the ladder I move on (around 1150-1400 ELO) where Chansey is a serious threat and you even get to sweep some battlers with their own Contrary shit.
And of course, if you ban Chansey then you ban Fur Coat Chansey which is a staple in most stall teams and far from broken.
So please I think this pretty much sums up why Chansey can't be banned, move on the next points of discussion (-ates, Sleep Clause currently). I know this sounds like we're not discussing anything but Chansey but really I know this is actually the opposite (we're discussing everything but Chansey) as it should be.
I know why some of you, the community, want Chansey banned (not that most of the community agrees though) but for the sake of keeping this meta alive and healthy, please stop.