Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

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Anyway, I'm just here to say that after laddering for the suspect test, I'm going to have to agree that Kyogre is banworthy.

But I'm still not convinced MegaRay is broken. I just... don't see it as THAT MUCH BETTER than Diancie. I just don't. Someone care to enlighten me?
Better STAB, higher offenses, somewhat better defensive typing.
 
I'm sorry but that's all I need to completely discredit all your arguments.

Just saying.


Anyway, I'm just here to say that after laddering for the suspect test, I'm going to have to agree that Kyogre is banworthy.

But I'm still not convinced MegaRay is broken. I just... don't see it as THAT MUCH BETTER than Diancie. I just don't. Someone care to enlighten me?
I could probably find more but real quick heres an example of what a simple 20 bst can do based on a calc you posted earlier


252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 89-105 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 72-84 (27.4 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-169 (54.9 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
So I just won a BH tour with a Kyogre mono. I'm hoping that some of these matches will be enough to convince people that Primal Kyogre is broken(especially the last match.)

Note that I didn't save the first two matches, so deal with it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243958309
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243963202 - Semifinals
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243964526 By far the most important replay that demonstrates how horribly broken Kyogre is.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
But I'm still not convinced MegaRay is broken. I just... don't see it as THAT MUCH BETTER than Diancie. I just don't. Someone care to enlighten me?
Flying resists: Steel, Rock, Electric
Fairy resists: Steel, Fire, Poison

Not much type-wise, Fire is only really common due to PDon so let's ignore that.

MRay: 105/180/100/180/100/115
MDia: 50/160/110/160/110/110

So Ray has better attack, speed, and overall bulk. Sure, there may not be much of a difference offensively, but MRay's other stats allow it to pull off other sets in better ways than Diancie (Contrary, Protean, Gale Wings but that's bc Flying type). In my opinion, simply Ray's extra bulk allows it to be more versatile and therefore more broken.

When I get onto an actual computer I'll type something up about GKR but just ban all three. Sure, I actually really like Fur Coat POgre on my team but I only run it for PDon so I wouldn't mind seeing them go. Ban the three of them. Meta too offensive 7.8/10
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I'm sorry but that's all I need to completely discredit all your arguments.

Just saying.


Anyway, I'm just here to say that after laddering for the suspect test, I'm going to have to agree that Kyogre is banworthy.

But I'm still not convinced MegaRay is broken. I just... don't see it as THAT MUCH BETTER than Diancie. I just don't. Someone care to enlighten me?
seems like you enjoyed my kyogre team ;)
 
I have been lurking this tread for awhile and have many comments to make about the various misconceptions going around by some of our newer players, as well as props for some of the more well thought out posts.

1. We both agree Groudon is broke.

2. None of Kyogre's common sets run Water Spout. In fact, I haven't seen any water move used by it, other than Scald, in a VERY long time.

3. Diancie kills Gar, what are you talking about:
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 89-105 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4. Diancie getting walled by Pdon isn't going to be a problem if it's banned.

What you're saying about MegaRay isn't convincing me that it's totally broke.

At least, not any more than MMY, which can do the same things. Its other sets are also much more devastating if you get Impostered, whereas -ate is easily walled by a Registeel or similar (again, like MMY, whose Protean sets are very easy to make "imposter proof")


I'm not necessarily arguing that these mons don't deserve a ban. I'm arguing that the way we're going about it "Oh, let's ban the Hoenn Trio!" is wrong.

A 720 Clause makes much more sense imo, as then we're banning things based on their statistical abilities, rather than by an irrelevant in-game "signature."

It just feels wrong to me. I might be biased. I might be totally wrong. It's just my PoV.
I just skimmed your post so I won't comment on most of it, but one thing that stuck out to me as factually incorrect is your diancie calc. You forgot to use mega-gar over regular form, and m-gar counter-intuitivly has significantly better defense than normal form and does indeed live diancie fakespeed, even while holding pixie plate like you had in the calc.
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 72-84 (27.4 - 32%)
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-169 (54.9 - 64.5%)

I am not particularly certain the Weather Trio needs to be banned outright. In my opinion all three of them, in their base forms and their primal and mega forms, canon movesets and unrestricted ones, are beatable by a variety of methods. Is it difficult to do so? Sometimes, of course, but not often enough to warrant banning them. A lot of people in hackmons(both the original mod and this one) are "hulk smash!" kinds of players, which are pretty easy to plan for. There aren't only a select few Pokemon that the necessary types and stats to deal with the Weather Trio, as plenty of lesser-used Pokemon in Hackmons can do the job. Here are a couple battles from Pokemon Showdown that help illustrate the point http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243066158
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243067458
I am not trying to be mean here but those replays are rather awful. They are filled with sub-par moves, pokemon, and decisions. In fact in the second game your opponent had you beat. All he had to do was attack 5 times with his +2 kyogre and you were 100% dead, but he threw it away using leech seed and letting you kill him. It is easy to kill kyogre when your opponent just lets you. Good players with ogre will not be so forgiving.

I mean Balanced Hackmons is a metagame in which banning pokemon is something that has never been done before. The only thing that I could see convincing people that a pokemon should even consider a suspect is the fact they all Mega Rayquaza stats and can carry an item. So with this logic Primal Dialga would be banned if it came out. Mega Rayquaza was obviously more powerful in Ubers but in BH the main 3 are not as overly centeralizing. Chansey is actually used more than these suspects. Mega Rayquaza at #2 barely under Chansey, Primal Groudon at #3 and Primal Kyogre at #10. This at 1760 by the way. Other stats also have Chansey #1. Obviously these 3 pokemon aren't as overly centralizing as everyone in this thread is saying.
You are correct in saying that BH has always had strong precedent for conducting bans in nontraditional ways. Origionally the banlist consisted only of ohko moves and abilities. This continued untill the ability clause in the mid-XY meta. This met decent resistance as we had not implemented any non-ability bans before, but the clause did solve the immediate problem of spam teams(typically poison heal) that were causing quite a commotion. Because we already broke this barrier there was less resistance to the more recent bans of 2 moves and implementation of -ate clause. Each of these did help clean up the meta and make it more enjoyable to play. We could possibly fix the current meta by going with the traditional ability bans, but the sheer amount of bans that would take would absolutely destroy the meta, and at the end the big 3 would still likely be the top dogs due to their tremendous stats and good typings. It is time to break the barrier for pokemon bans.

I love stats and spreadsheets as much as the next nerd, but I would be wary about using them to make your primary point of the state of a meta. Stats can be a bit decieving at times. I remember when kuy-b's most common teammate was himself 230% of the time. In any case though your analysis of the usage stats is a bit lacking. A pokemon's usage % is not a simple function of the most broken things get #1, #2, and #3 respectably. It really depends on several factors such as:
1) How valuable a pokemon's role is to the meta
2) How well other pokemon can fill the same role

For example in 5th gen BH gira was the top pokemon throughout the gen with ~50% usage because its role as a spinblocker was invaluable and its only alternative was the niche choice jellicent.

Chansey's usage is a cool deviation from the standard as it is entirely dependent on chansey having good imposter targets. In 5th gen this meant that chansey, while having high usage, did not take the top spot from gira as most all sweepers in the upper level meta were imposter-proof. In XY this changed as more powerful and less imposter-proof sweepers were developed. Chansey took the top spot in the pre-ORAS meta. In the current ORAS she has and will certainly continue to hold the top spot as her competition, ray and groudon, are both excellent and common targets to imposter. If ray and don each had 90% usage chansey would likely still have more.

Despite what you said the usage stats do show centralization. You can find the old pre-ORAS usage stats here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/official-smogon-university-simulator-statistics-—-february-2014.3501320/
And the most recent ones here:
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-05/balancedhackmons-1760.txt

Each of the top 5 spots are a good 10%-15% more widely used now than in the past. This is the very definition of centralization. The pokemon used are more heavily stilted towards the select few at the top than before. Now this is not the strongest trend and says nothing about if the pokemon are broken or not, hence why I and many others are wary about basing arguments on usage alone. Having said that I would like to note that in the 1760 stats ray has 59% usage and don 51%. It is not a conclusive thing, but when mainly offensive pokemon get that much usage in a meta something is fishy, and I don't mean kyogre's tail.

One last thing to point out in the usage stats: our total number of monthly battles has almost tripled in the past year, so go us.

The thing with saying that ppl will just use the "next big thing" is that said next big thing isn't nearly as threatening has the hoenn trio.
As far as diancie goes i think the flying type is better than the fairy type for 3 reasons. Fire types, stuff like ho-oh, volcanion, charizard, heatran can check / counter diancie and are actually really viable in bh (possibly way more if ray gets banned). You don't kill grass / bug, this is minor but ferrothorn, scizor or venusaur are actually really decent in bh but the main reason i personally stopped using them or used them less is megaray, gengar is also a great check to diancie. Lastly, and that is huge, the weaker bulk + 4X weakness to steel means that any steel type can easily kill diancie, just using a regen pivot with bullet punch is usually enough to deal with diancie something that you cannot do with megaray. Other minor things include ray's defensive typing making him immune to Tspikes / spikes, ground move like thousand waves and resistant to water / grass which makes it easyer for him to swith on stuff.
Its funny; just the other day I was wondering about how a meta without the big 3 would look like and how many new options for diancie checks would open up without the need to additionally check ray. The calcs I did weren't as quite as favorable towards the defender as I had hoped in scizor's case, but venu and ferro showed promise. Here they are:
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 125-147 (36.3 - 42.7%)
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 110-130 (30.2 - 35.7%)
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 112-132 (31.8 - 37.5%)

After managing to get reqs I feel that now's a good time to leave my input on the suspect.

Primal Groudon:
A large amount of people want this thing to go, and it's not hard to see why. It can run several different sets that all have lots of viability, with most of its sets involving wallbreaking or sweeping. With a very spammable STAB Thousand Arrows coming off from a base 180 Attack, there is literally no switch ins to this monster. At +2 Attack, everything in the tier gets OHKOed, with the exception of the most defensive mons, who are just set up bait to begin with, or can't do anything back in return. Ban.

Mega Rayquaza:
This mon is a devastating Aerialate Abuser. With 180 in both offensive stats and 115 Speed, Mega Rayquaza can smack opponents hard with its Flying type STAB. Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed allows MegaRay to easily pick off weakened mons with little effort, and Boomburst wallbreaks. MegaRay forces one to bring a Flying resist to take on its attacks, such as Registeel, but with its high offensive stats, one could easily switch up one of the moves for a proper coverage move, such as Thousand Arrows for an incoming Steel Type. Ban.

Primal Kyogre:

When first looking at this suspect, I didn't see Kyogre as much of a threat at all, since PDon and MegaRay are much more dangerous, but Primal Kyogre is not one to under estimate at all. With Quiver Dance under it's belt, it can set up on with ease and has the potential to wreck an entire team if it gets out of hand. It can also be hard to stop, since almost every QD set runs Poison Heal Toxic Orb. STAB Steam Eruption hits hard and has a burn chance and also STAB Water Spout smacks any would be switch ins very hard as well. Primal Kyogre also has the potential to beat Imposter Chancey 1v1 due to it's large special bulk and the potential to burn Chansey, while avoiding a burn by running Poison Heal, and Shedinja can be beaten with Leech Seed. It's centralizing nature its overall unhealthy for the metagame, as mentioned by previous people.

Leaning Towards Ban.
I don't really know you, unlike most of the people here, and I am not sure if I have played you on the ladder, but I think you gave a rather well thought out summery of why each suspect deserves its suspect status. Kudos to you.

OK, time for some unpopular opinions :/
Mega Ray: Ban. It's so bulky and powerful and fast - better than diancie in every way. Flying is a better stab type than fairy, beating groudon. It can use gale wings or aerilate. Bulky sets aren't too terrible. Get this thing gone. Great quote from motherlove:

It outclasses so much stuff and is way too versatile. It was banned from AG and is almost as dominant here (besides the fact that chansey is everywhere)
P-Kyogre: No Ban. To me this is just the flavor of the month being used over Giratina. It's barely better than regular kyogre, as 50 points go to attack. I honestly think this hype train will die soon. Regular kyogre pulls off these setup sets just as well since Blue Orb doesn't even grant any defense. It isn't nearly as good as the other suspects and should be happy to just be included in the discussion.
P-Groudon: No Ban. I don't know why. I really don't. This is just my gut feeling. Steam eruption beats shedinja too, it isn't just for groudon. I talked in the species clause thread about the tournament where I beat the four PG guy and how Big 5 + chansey won it. It came down to a Ray speed tie. M-Ray is the face of BH just like it was in Ubers and overshadows him. But why no ban? I don't know. It's just my gut feeling. Water moves counter it since it doesn't have explosive priority, unlike ray.

What needs a Ban: Nickname Clause. When you face six kyogres and cant tell them apart then there is real trouble. The ability to know your opponents sets but not be able to tell is disgusting. We need a nickname clause now.
Baton Pass. I hate this move with a burning passion. It is uncounterable and has higher win rates than any other strategy. I was messing around today and got this result: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243578294
Baton Pass creates so many unbalanced uncounterable bullshit strategies that eliminate skill - I can play like a four year old and still win that game. Watch these:
(not only shamelessly plugging myself) and you can see that this move is unhealthy in any format any day week month or year.
As a stark contrast facepalms for you.

To start, while I agree that ray deserve the banhammer, this is not the best of arguments for such.

For ogre its poison heal set has been around and very strong since the double PH meta that came about after the ability clause in pre-ORAS, so really PH ogre is more of a flavor of the year set. The primal just added to its strengths and in a big way that is much harder to deal with.

For don your "gut feeling" makes me cringe so hard.

As for baton pass I can tell you that it is in no way broken in BH and is at the moment honestly quite bad and hard to pull off successfully. I really enjoy baton pass teams and it is my guilty pleasure gimmick of choice, but dear lord you just insta-die to most things in the meta. As for the game you linked it is clear to everybody other than your opponent what your plan was and the obvious ways of avoiding it. No player worth their salt will just keep a normalized poke in on an obvious manual mega-evo gar, unless they plan to murder you with thousand arrows.


As for my personal opinion on each of the suspects I will try keep things short and sweet as this post is already rather long.

Mega-Rayquaza is an extremely powerful wallbreaker who is capable of destroying each of the traditional counters for its aeriate set simply by carrying the right coverage move. It dosen't even need to use surprise sets such as protean to beat its counters, though it is certainly capable of that too. On top of this ray can revenge kill much of the tier and has fantastic utility because of this.

Primal-Kyogre is hands down the best sweeper in the tier with its poison heal quiver dance set. While it may not have the most immediate power out of all the sweepers, it does have unmatched survivability. Ogre is my most used sweeper by far and from my experience I have found that unless your opponent carries a hard counter like water absorb ho-oh then you can just keep slamming ogre into their walls over and over until something gives in and you get a full sweep.

Primal-Groudon is an incredibly versatile bulky attacker with amazing typing both offensively and defensively. It can run a tremendous amount of sets and is very capable of beating its checks, such as giratina. Groudon can wallbreak just about anything in the game or can function as a sturdy wall if need be. Ground/Fire is perfect offensive coverage that allows groudon to come in on a wide variety of moves.
 
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Mega-Rayquaza is an extremely powerful wallbreaker who is capable of destroying each of the traditional counters for its aeriate set simply by carrying the right coverage move. It dosen't even need to use surprise sets such as protean to beat its counters, though it is certainly capable of that too. On top of this ray can revenge kill much of the tier and has fantastic utility because of this.

Primal-Kyogre is hands down the best sweeper in the tier with its poison heal quiver dance set. While it may not have the most immediate power out of all the sweepers, it does have unmatched survivability. Ogre is my most used sweeper by far and from my experience I have found that unless your opponent carries a hard counter like water absorb ho-oh then you can just keep slamming ogre into their walls over and over until something gives in and you get a full sweep.

Primal-Groudon is an incredibly versatile bulky attacker with amazing typing both offensively and defensively. It can run a tremendous amount of sets and is very capable of beating its checks, such as giratina. Groudon can wallbreak just about anything in the game or can function as a sturdy wall if need be. Ground/Fire is perfect offensive coverage that allows groudon to come in on a wide variety of moves.
Out of all of the posts in this thread, this is easily one of the best posts since it clearly summarizes why each suspect deserves its suspect status, as well as providing a good amount of counter arguments as well. Also, after reading this post, I decided to change my decision on Primal Kyogre from Leaning Towards Ban to Ban. It helped me clear out initial doubts I had on POgre. I never thought of POgre as the best sweeper in the tier, but this post explained why it is very well.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-244161138

Was told to upload this, apparently it showcases how broken kyogre is
Wait, wut? This guy insults you and then says "why d'you feel the need to attack me?"
Other than that I just wanted to say, if you're using ph ogre as one of your wincon running toxic spikes sounds kinda stupid. You should probably consider smt else cause this man could've tried to pp stall you with imposter.

But yeah like kumi said, unless you have a hard counter to ogre you'll lose to ogre. At least most of the time.
 
I've completed reqs, and i have decided how i will vote, unless something amazing happens. Here is my opinion on each:

Primal Groudon: Ban

I've already done an in-depth look at Groudon here, and here. Since those posts, Groudon has become even more dangerous. Coil sets are becoming more popular, and not even Fur Coat is sitting is countering Coil for very long. Groudon is so versatile there is potential for endless viable sets. His "linear' and common sets are difficult enough to wall. Primal Don simply puts a massive burden on an opponent to answer it, and vast freedom to the user.

Primal Kyogre: Ban

Main arguments are here. Its just ridiculous how well it preforms. You can reliably sweep teams without a hard counter, and even hard counters are worn down with Leech Seed and Burns. It can protect itself quite well from revenge killers, it can reliably set up on a several offensive threats. Its better then an already borderline broken Pokemon. It absolutely needs to go.

Mega Rayquaza: No Ban

Aerilate Mega Rayquaza is broken, overcentralzing, and uncompetitive all in one set. Yet i still plan on voting no ban. Why? Well let me explain why i think Aerilate Ray is broken first. -ate Ray can easily defeat most of the tier 1v1 with just Fakespeed and Boomburst. Pokemon such as Regigigas, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Gengar, Mega Mewtwo X and Y, Arceus, Giratina, Aerodactyl, Arceus, Audino-Mega, Lati@s-Mega, Yveltal, Xerneas, Deo-A, Groudon and many more lose 1v1 in a vacuum setting. In fact, the only Pokemon that can beat Mega Ray without abilites, or items, or lowering Ray's stats in a 1v1 situation are: Kyogre, Dialga, Mega Metagross, Regirock, Tyranitar, Registeel, Aegislash and Chansey. Yes you can run sets like Fur Coat Aerodactyl to check it, but that just shows how centralzing -ates are. Offensive pokemon generally like to run offense abilities. A defensive ability on an offensive Pokemon like Aerodactyl is sub optimal. And if Aero is running Fur Coat, well Ray could actually be Refrigerate! The threat of -ate also forces players to run multiple checks and counters to ensure they are not swept. Hence why King's Shield is so highly used on Protean. And if you chose to run Tyranitar as your -ate Ray check, you still need a -ate Diancie check/counter. Likewise if you run Ho-oh as your Diancie check/counter you need something else to counter -ate Ray. In order to counter all the -ates in one slot, you are required to run Aegislash, Registeel, Chansey, or Regirock. It is extremely constricting on the teambuilding process. Regirock and Chansey are also both limited in the sets they can run that beat -ate. Regirock needs Assault Vest or Sand to comfortably tank netural Boomburst hits, (edit: Regirock can't actually tank neutral Boomburst with special investment), and Chansey requires Fur Coat. 2/3 -ate counters are hit SE by ground and fire coverage, making them vulnerable to Thousand Arrows, Precipice Blades, V-Create, and Blue Flare. Another reason to ban -ate Ray is the lack of skill required to use Ray. Thanks to its explosive priority and Boomburst, Ray requires little to no prediction to beat most of the tier. -Ate has been abused so much lately even players with little experience are familar with -ate. This makes the tier less competitive and strategic. -Ate can fill the role of revenge killer, Sweeper and Wallbreaker, so it is a must include on every offense team. So why am I voting no ban on Mega Ray? As you might have already figured out, I think it's -ate that is broken, not Mega Ray. Mega Ray's other sets include Gale Wings, Protean, Tinted Lens, Contrary, and Poison Heal. Every set but Gale Wings is bad or done better/as well by the Mega Mewtwos. Mega Ray's Gale Wing sets can be strong, but are less proven then his -ate sets. Gale Wings also cannot run as powerful pirority and mixed sets. There is not enough evidence to show Gale Wings would be broken IMO. Protean sets are almost outclassed by the Mega Mewtwos. Tinted Lens and Poison Heal sets are mediocre. Contrary has Imposter issues. It would simply be an mistake to ban Mega Ray when it is so clearly -ate that is the only broken set.

200th post!
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Special thanks to Om leaders The Immortal and Eevee General for making it all possible.

Sorry if I forgot you or couldn't think if anything next to your name I'm just not creative enough ;-;
edit: forgot users: Illusio aesf
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
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I will vote the same way as KS for nearly the same reasons which I have often gone over in the OM chat on PS, although I feel that his claim on ate being broken is premature, and would prefer a complex decision to not allow ate on raymega. But I will save those views for the inevitable -ate suspect.

Groudon: Ban
Kyogre: Ban
Raymega: No Ban
 
Okay, meh GKR MIMEZ account has reqs, time to state meh opinion ^^

Groudon: BAN

Primal Groudon is a monster. It's bulky, has a base 180 attack, incredible offensive typing of Ground/Fire, and is very versatile. The combination of Thousand Arrows/V-create is incredibly powerful perfect neutral coverage (Bar Primordiral Sea/Flash Fire), STAB. Because of this, there are unlimited possibilties for Groudon based on the strengths and weaknesses of the team. Desolate Land, Tinted Lens, Adapt, Refridgerate, Pixilate, Poision Heal, and Mold Breaker are all very viable options for Groudon and each limit ways to beat groudon. Because of this, groudon is the hardest pokemon to prepare for in the meta, and deserves a ban.

Kyogre: NO BAN

Primal Kyogre is a very scary threat in the metagame. However, i don't feel it's at the point where it needs to be banned. It, unlike Groudon, is a very predictable threat that doesn't run anything other than PH. It needs 2-3 qds to do major damage, and it struggles to set those up, considering its lackluster physical bulk. Its weak to unaware, shuffling, Desolate Land stuff, such as Ho-oh, Heatran, and Don, as well as other PH users. Unlike the other two, Kyorge needs setup to be a threat, and ways to beat it are plentiful.

Rayquaza: BAN

While Rayquaza is very limited, as aerilate is its only good ability, aerialate mray is a MONSTER in the current meta. It 2hkos the entire metagame, as well as having priority in fakespeed. There isnt a single pokemon in the metagame that doesnt get 2hkoed by fakespeed+techno/boomburst+filler bar AV users, fur coat users, and chansey.
 
Okay, meh GKR MIMEZ account has reqs, time to state meh opinion ^^

Kyogre: NO BAN

Primal Kyogre is a very scary threat in the metagame. However, i don't feel it's at the point where it needs to be banned. It, unlike Groudon, is a very predictable threat that doesn't run anything other than PH. It needs 2-3 qds to do major damage, and it struggles to set those up, considering its lackluster physical bulk. Its weak to unaware, shuffling, Desolate Land stuff, such as Ho-oh, Heatran, and Don, as well as other PH users. Unlike the other two, Kyorge needs setup to be a threat, and ways to beat it are plentiful.
I simply disagree with the statement "Kyogre needs setup to be a threat." Tinted Lens/ Primordial Sea Water Spout spam sets are absolutely devastating to unprepared teams.

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 186-219 (51 - 60.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Heavy Rain: 279-328 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Even if uncommon, these sets are quite viable. Kyogre is also flexible enough to run sets like Regen Vest and Protean. While these sets are may not be broken, they exist and contribute to Primal Kyogre's effectiveness.
 
I understand that users desire an -ate suspect, but Mega Rayquaza is clearly the most broken of the three if you're taking that out of the picture. Do the -ates really have to be alienated as a whole from Mega Rayquaza? The -ate suspect isn't here (yet?), so it would be best to express unbiased opinions for now. Assuming Mega Rayquaza is banned, followed by the -ates later on, I'm sure we can retest Mega Rayquaza to see if it's broken or not.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
Since my account has reqs as well here's my opinion:

Primal Groudon: BARN
PDon is strong. Tinted Lens PDon cannot be countered outside of Fur Coat tina, and even then it's a check at best. Imposters can't switch in reliably on it as it always runs a Ground move, which 2HKOs Imposter with band. If PDon's scarfed, you cannot Imposter it in general. It can even run Special sets, if that's your thing, and even can run quite a few lure sets to deal with its checks. Nothing that isn't named Fur Coat Giratina can deal with it outside of potentially revenge-killing it, and even then it can just switch out. Its physical bulk is quite decent too, and it effectively deals with one of the -ates, Mega Diancie. PDon is mostly predictable, but it's just so good at doing its predictable job; Tinted Lens + Band V-create 2HKO's Fur Coat tina if it's not running 252/252+, which is stupid.

Primal Kyogre: BARN
POgre is dumb. Seriously, PH Special sets are just the tip of the iceberg. As someone who's run Mono-Ogre (and won a roomtour with it, with no experience with the team), I can pretty much confirm that this is dumb. PH Physical sets can be run to deal with other POgre, Fur Coat sets can be run to patch up its okay physical bulk, RegenVest sets just have insane special bulk, heck it can even run a decent enough Protean set. PH sets are Imposter-proof, especially with Leech Seed, unless you set up a lot and your opponent is carrying Lucky Punch, you're running the physical lure set, or if you're just really dumb. Since a lot of them carry Leech Seed, all you can really do with Sturdinja is just click Endeavor then die. Half the games that I've laddered with have had the potential to come down to Ogre v Ogre if me and the other player decided to stay in rather than opt out of it, I kid you not. With PDon, you have one thing that reliably deals with it, most of the time. With POgre, lol good luck son, you better be bringing your Water Absorb Ho-Ohs and praying that it's not the lure set with Bolt Strike. Desolate Pdon works to deal with POgre, yes, but that can easily be dealt with by running Earth Power over Ice Beam, which isn't that hard to do and allows you to wall POgre with something like Unaware *water resist*. This doesn't even begin to cover Tinted Lens and the various other sets that POgre can run.

Mega Rayquaza: BARN
M-Ray I'm a bit iffy about. You can sort of easily deal with it by running Registeel, and you can sort of deal with it by running Chansey, but at the same time, if M-Ray has Spore, Chansey's out, and if M-Ray has Precipice [or Earth Power], Registeel's out. This is just the Aerilate set, and you can run a variety of other sets. Gale Wings is another one of its strongest that basically involves you clicking Tail Glow and then OHKOing whatever with Oblivion Wing because you can't not OHKO things. Registeel gets rekt by Earth Power or Magma Storm, so that isn't the best switchin either. There's also a set I saw abusing Refrigerate to deal with other M-Rays, and bop Giratina if that's really the only thing they have to deal with it. There's also karutobi's Protean set, and many others. I saw people saying that M-Ray is outclassed at doing its job in Protean, and tbh that's not exactly true. M-Ray is pretty good at being a mixed Protean abuser, rather than a physical/special one.

tl;dr send all 3 to the shadow realm so pikachu becomes top tier threat pls kthx
 
I understand that users desire an -ate suspect, but Mega Rayquaza is clearly the most broken of the three if you're taking that out of the picture. Do the -ates really have to be alienated as a whole from Mega Rayquaza? The -ate suspect isn't here (yet?), so it would be best to express unbiased opinions for now. Assuming Mega Rayquaza is banned, followed by the -ates later on, I'm sure we can retest Mega Rayquaza to see if it's broken or not.
Well my main defense is, If one ability makes a Pokemon broken, and that ability makes other Pokemon broken or borderline broken, then ban the ability not the Mon. You are right, we could just retest Mega Ray after an -ate suspect. But we really don't lose much from just waiting and gathering evidence, and making the correct choice once. A Retest and unban would mean we failed to make the correct judgment in the first place.
 
Well my main defense is, If one ability makes a Pokemon broken, and that ability makes other Pokemon broken or borderline broken, then ban the ability not the Mon. You are right, we could just retest Mega Ray after an -ate suspect. But we really don't lose much from just waiting and gathering evidence, and making the correct choice once. A Retest and unban would mean we failed to make the correct judgment in the first place.
You're assuming that there will actually be an -ate suspect in the future, even though we have heard no confirmation from verbatim, The Immortal, or Eevee General. This reminds be of the DW Blaziken suspect test back in gen 5, as a lot of users desired a simple complex ban of Speed Boost + Blaziken, but Smogon does not usually operate this way. Until verbatim confirms an -ate suspect, it would be best to propose a complex ban instead of simply assuming there will be another -ate clause in the future. Additionaly, cases may even be made for Protean Mega Rayquaza (outclassed, but that doesn't make it any less broken), and also Gale Wings Mega Rayquaza, for they are both impossible to wall and get past their counters effortlessly, courtesy of extremely powerful priority with Tail Glow and Protean's incredible use of powerful coverage moves respectively.
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
We have not had a single Pokemon ban in BH yet, so I think it is a good idea to review why we are doing so.

Groudon Primal is probalby going to be our first ban. It has a great double tab that hits every part of the meta, it has the offensive stats to back them up and be used with nearly any offensive ability purely with its stabs, it has the defensive stabs to resist priority and retain its bulk, it has a good typing to not be affected by SR, and has only two weaknesses. It can get by its would be counters simply by changing its ability, or running a different end of the spectrum and that's not even touching on its coverage moves. This is just with base Groudon Primal.

Kyogre Primal is much similar, in that it has the offensive and defensive type, the ability to run nearly any ability, and the special case, the ability to be nearly invincible after just a single set up on its main set where it also has recovery. Without having a dedicated counter to its stab, it can get past its would be counters in much a similar fashion, and has the addition advantage of being imposter proof on its main set minus Lucky Punch, in which case it is a toss up, just like a speed tie with other mons.

It is important to note that these two are in the ban discussion because they centralize the tier beyond their main set, and the fact that they work with nearly any offensive and defensive ability, and have the stats and the typing to maintain their dominance in the tier. That is why we are discussing them for ban. If Groudon had the defensive stats of DeoxysA, or Kyogre was like a super defensive Shuckle, I am pretty sure we would not be here right now. They are difficult to find stops to beyong their main set (in fact, I am not even sure what Groudon-Primal's main set even is).Therefore, these are the standards we should have to ban a pokemon from BH, which is an otherwise unheard of decision.

Therefore when you talk about Rayquaza Mega you have to make sure it follows the same standards. Many people say it is broken on its main set, Aerilate, the assumption of which I could contest myself right now. But let's continue on the basis that it is; then the correct decision is to ban an -ate ability on the mon not the complete mon itself. This is because, Ray doesn't have the defensive type that Groudon and Kyogre do, it does not have the bulk to tank hits, it is weak to one of the hazards and it becomes debiliated by any coverage move from even a moderately strong defensive mon. Furthermore its stabs do not have the unresisted potential of Groudon nor does it have the versatility to work with multiple offensive sets, like Tinted, PH or Protean, to make it not have good enough answers to, like Groudon and Kyogre do. Every single set that currently works that is not Aerilate works only because people expect it to be Aerilate, or it needs a scarf to pull off completely. Am I saying Ray is bad? Of course not; it would do decently with a lot of different sets. But being "okay" is not grounds for a ban. Right now there is not even enough evidence to say that its second strongest set, Gale Wings is broken in the meta, and to say that it definitively would be in a meta that wil not have to worry about preparing for Groudon or Kyogre would be premature and foolish. If you want to ban a Pokemon you have to look at what it brings to the table completely, not because of a single set.

There have been a number of counterarguments to this option based on points that I do not think are sound and I shall get into why right now:

Complex banning isn't a viable solution because it is too confusing
This is the number one reason that I receive in opposition and it is the most farcical one so I shall do this first. First of all, it is untrue completely because there have been precedents of not allowing a specific set on a pokemon in metas such as AAA, Inheritance, where Sableye-Chansey was deemed over cenrtalizing, as well as Averagemons, where Sableye was given Stall to keep Sableye-Mega in the meta, the latter of which I think is a very interesting decision because it basically is the same reason why I think Rayquaza Mega should remain in the tier. If a tree is diseased you take care of the infected branch - you don't chop the entire tree down.

Furthermore, this "tradition" business for not allowing a complex ban is ludicrous. How do you qualify complex? I'd say we have already started with complex decisions with the Assist vote (which was the preferred decision over banning Groudon Primal at the time), as well as the ability clause, because the requirement for "two" is completely arbitrary. If this were not a case, this argument is still fundamentally flawed because you are not only assuming that your userbase is too stupid to understand a clause and thus be put off from playing,even though it does not seem any more complex than banning Rayquaza Mega entirely (which would evoke the same question as to "why", and still put off new players who would want to play with a mon that is not allowed anywhere else except AG), but also you are saying that the complexity of a clause and the ability for people understanding should somehow be incorporated into our decision making. Nowhere else on this planet does anyone make decisions based on whether other people get it or like it or not; they make the correct decision regardless (this is especially for any of you who support the recent Supreme Court decision which was made even though there is a sizable segment who "just don't understand it" or "just don't like it"). I don't see how the complexity of a rule should affect a mon's performance in a meta. Especially when the concept of banning a specific set on a mon based on its ability has precedents in other metas - and don't even get me started on the purported ways to "improve" Stabmons.

Complex bans have never been done before
Neither has a pokemon been banned from BH before. There is always going to be a precedent.

Complex bans are looked down upon in standard tiers
The practices of standards have no bearing on what we do here, as people have already kindly pointed out in regards to usage. In any case, I will delve into this point as well

First feel free to refer to this post because it is where most people are drawing this argument from. I took a look at it myself, and unless I am mistaken, most people actually did admit that complex bans would bea step in the right direction. However, the decision was ultiamtely made to not do so based on two basic points, which across all the posts I've read, can be summarized as:

1) Pokemon with the different abilities still perform roughly the same role, which is what is being attempted to stop. This argument is used against Speed Boost Blaziken vs Blaze Blaziken
2) This decision would affect every single pokemon across all standard tiers, resulting in many cases the same Pokemon being classified in different tiers basedon what abilities it has. This would be a massive undertaking that is simply unfeasible.

Neither of these arguments apply in BH. I'll start with the second point.All we are deciding is if a pokemon is in or out of the tier. There are no other tiers we need to put them into, and there is no reason to bucket every other mon that could be potentially banned (because we have only two other candidates, who are broken across their sets, not on their main one, which is the assumption we made to begin with - if you want to refute this assumption, then you should also be questioning why Don and Ogre are being banned at all). The first point is also completely inapplicable to BH because the ability defines the role of a pokemon in this meta. You can't say "oh look Raymega is broken on aerilate, so we should ban it because it will behave the same across all of the sets". It just doesn't work. Raymega has drastically different sets for Aerilate, Tinted, Contrary, Gale Wings, PH, Fur Coat, Magic Guard and all. There is simply no way to blanket all of them together.

Where does one stop, if one starts being complex?
This is a meaningless question because I already don't think that banning an ability on a mon is needlessly complex but I shall humor it anyway. We stop based on the arguments that will be posed in this thread, that is the whole point of the suspect thread, and we all will have a say of what is overly complex. We aren't making a clause that "raymega is in the tier if it doesn'thave any normal moves, if it is running iron ball, if it has 0 ivs in speed, and if the user of the ray plays without a mouse" here. If it is taking more effort to keep a mon in a tier than it would to ban it, then that is when it needs to be banned imo. This is completely not applicable here. If you are going through with this argument then you are simply being facetious.

You only want this in the tier because you have a boner for offense
I can't deny and say I don't love offense, but I will change my view depending on evidence and I try to be objective as possible because in the end I want a better tier just like any of you. Kingslayer very succinctly posed why Groudon Primal is broken across all of his sets with just his main stabs with sufficient and clear evidence and I had no counterargument even though I was initially against having bans in BH at all for whatever reason. I changed my decision based on what he said and that is why I support Don ban. If i was completely biased, I would only vote for Ogre ban, because I like him the least and Groudon and Raymega suit my playstyle far better and are far cooler. In any case, this is an ad hominem argument which is a sure sign that you are already wrong.

tl;dr
You have to prove that Raymega is broken with more than just Aerilate to get it banned. This would especially be a laughable decision if we ban Raymega and then people actually do get around to suspecting -ates, which is what Kingslayer said (and which most of the people who want Raymega banned seem to support).
Innocent until proven guilty.

PS: If you reply with "tldr LOLOL" to this post, then I don't see how you have any business being in this thread which is based on discussion. Get your cheap likes elswhere
 
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We have not had a single Pokemon ban in BH yet, so I think it is a good idea to review why we are doing so.

Groudon Primal is probalby going to be our first ban. It has a great double tab that hits every part of the meta, it has the offensive stats to back them up and be used with nearly any offensive ability purely with its stabs, it has the defensive stabs to resist priority and retain its bulk, it has a good typing to not be affected by SR, and has only two weaknesses. It can get by its would be counters simply by changing its ability, or running a different end of the spectrum and that's not even touching on its coverage moves. This is just with base Groudon Primal.

Kyogre Primal is much similar, in that it has the offensive and defensive type, the ability to run nearly any ability, and the special case, the ability to be nearly invincible after just a single set up on its main set where it also has recovery. Without having a dedicated counter to its stab, it can get past its would be counters in much a similar fashion, and has the addition advantage of being imposter proof on its main set minus Lucky Punch, in which case it is a toss up, just like a speed tie with other mons.

It is important to note that these two are in the ban discussion because they centralize the tier beyond their main set, and the fact that they work with nearly any offensive and defensive ability, and have the stats and the typing to maintain their dominance in the tier. That is why we are discussing them for ban. If Groudon had the defensive stats of DeoxysA, or Kyogre was like a super defensive Shuckle, I am pretty sure we would not be here right now. They are difficult to find stops to beyong their main set (in fact, I am not even sure what Groudon-Primal's main set even is).Therefore, these are the standards we should have to ban a pokemon from BH, which is an otherwise unheard of decision.

Therefore when you talk about Rayquaza Mega you have to make sure it follows the same standards. Many people say it is broken on its main set, Aerilate, the assumption of which I could contest myself right now. But let's continue on the basis that it is; then the correct decision is to ban an -ate ability on the mon not the complete mon itself. This is because, Ray doesn't have the defensive type that Groudon and Kyogre do, it does not have the bulk to tank hits, it is weak to one of the hazards and it becomes debiliated by any coverage move from even a moderately strong defensive mon. Furthermore its stabs do not have the unresisted potential of Groudon nor does it have the versatility to work with multiple offensive sets, like Tinted, PH or Protean, to make it not have good enough answers to, like Groudon and Kyogre do. Every single set that currently works that is not Aerilate works only because people expect it to be Aerilate, or it needs a scarf to pull off completely. Am I saying Ray is bad? Of course not; it would do decently with a lot of different sets. But being "okay" is not grounds for a ban. Right now there is not even enough evidence to say that its second strongest set, Gale Wings is broken in the meta, and to say that it definitively would be in a meta that wil not have to worry about preparing for Groudon or Kyogre would be premature and foolish. If you want to ban a Pokemon you have to look at what it brings to the table completely, not because of a single set.

There have been a number of counterarguments to this option based on points that I do not think are sound and I shall get into why right now:


This is the number one reason that I receive in opposition and it is the most farcical one so I shall do this first. First of all, it is untrue completely because there have been precedents of not allowing a specific set on a pokemon in metas such as AAA, Inheritance, where Sableye-Chansey was deemed over cenrtalizing, as well as Averagemons, where Sableye was given Stall to keep Sableye-Mega in the meta, the latter of which I think is a very interesting decision because it basically is the same reason why I think Rayquaza Mega should remain in the tier. If a tree is diseased you take care of the infected branch - you don't chop the entire tree down.

Furthermore, this "tradition" business for not allowing a complex ban is ludicrous. How do you qualify complex? I'd say we have already started with complex decisions with the Assist vote (which was the preferred decision over banning Groudon Primal at the time), as well as the ability clause, because the requirement for "two" is completely arbitrary. If this were not a case, this argument is still fundamentally flawed because you are not only assuming that your userbase is too stupid to understand a clause and thus be put off from playing,even though it does not seem any more complex than banning Rayquaza Mega entirely (which would evoke the same question as to "why", and still put off new players who would want to play with a mon that is not allowed anywhere else except AG), but also you are saying that the complexity of a clause and the ability for people understanding should somehow be incorporated into our decision making. Nowhere else on this planet does anyone make decisions based on whether other people get it or like it or not; they make the correct decision regardless (this is especially for any of you who support the recent Supreme Court decision which was made even though there is a sizable segment who "just don't understand it" or "just don't like it"). I don't see how the complexity of a rule should affect a mon's performance in a meta. Especially when the concept of banning a specific set on a mon based on its ability has precedents in other metas.


Neither has a pokemon been banned from BH before. There is always going to be a precedent.


The practices of standards have no bearing on what we do here, as people have already kindly pointed out in regards to usage. In any case, I will delve into this point as well

First feel free to refer to this post because it is where most people are drawing this argument from. I took a look at it myself, and unless I am mistaken, most people actually did admit that complex bans would bea step in the right direction. However, the decision was ultiamtely made to not do so based on two basic points, which across all the posts I've read, can be summarized as:

1) Pokemon with the different abilities still perform roughly the same role, which is what is being attempted to stop. This argument is used against Speed Boost Blaziken vs Blaze Blaziken
2) This decision would affect every single pokemon across all standard tiers, resulting in many cases the same Pokemon being classified in different tiers basedon what abilities it has. This would be a massive undertaking that is simply unfeasible.

Neither of these arguments apply in BH. I'll start with the second point.All we are deciding is if a pokemon is in or out of the tier. There are no other tiers we need to put them into, and there is no reason to bucket every other mon that could be potentially banned (because we have only two other candidates, who are broken across their sets, not on their main one, which is the assumption we made to begin with - if you want to refute this assumption, then you should also be questioning why Don and Ogre are being banned at all). The first point is also completely inapplicable to BH because the ability defines the role of a pokemon in this meta. You can't say "oh look Raymega is broken on aerilate, so we should ban it because it will behave the same across all of the sets". It just doesn't work. Raymega has drastically different sets for Aerilate, Tinted, Contrary, Gale Wings, PH, Fur Coat, Magic Guard and all. There is simply no way to blanket all of them together.


This is a meaningless question because I already don't think that banning an ability on a mon is needlessly complex but I shall humor it anyway. We stop based on the arguments that will be posed in this thread, that is the whole point of the suspect thread, and we all will have a say of what is overly complex. We aren't making a clause that "raymega is in the tier if it doesn'thave any normal moves, if it is running iron ball, if it has 0 ivs in speed, and if the user of the ray plays without a mouse" here. If it is taking more effort to keep a mon in a tier than it would to ban it, then that is when it needs to be banned imo. This is completely not applicable here. If you are going through with this argument then you are simply being facetious.


I can't deny and say I don't love offense, but I will change my view depending on evidence and I try to be objective as possible because in the end I want a better tier just like any of you. Kingslayer very succinctly posed why Groudon Primal is broken across all of his sets with just his main stabs with sufficient and clear evidence and I had no counterargument even though I was initially against having bans in BH at all for whatever reason. I changed my decision based on what he said and that is why I support Don ban. If i was completely biased, I would only vote for Ogre ban, because I like him the least and Groudon and Raymega suit my playstyle far better and are far cooler.

tl;dr
You have to prove that Raymega is broken with more than just Aerilate to get it banned. This would especially be a laughable decision if we ban Raymega and then people actually do get around to suspecting -ates, which is what Kingslayer said (and which most of the people who want Raymega banned seem to support).
Innocent until proven guilty.

PS: If you reply with "tldr LOLOL" to this post, then I don't see how you have any business being in this thread which is based on discussion. Get your cheap likes elswhere
tldr LOL
Flint wanted me to tell you guys that his post has made me change my mind on rayray. I also would like to say that the nature of the ban is not as important as the reasoning behind the ban itself. There's nothing wrong with banning something that is supposedly broken and that should not be our main concern here.
 
I admit that I completely agree with Kingslayer2779's arguments, but I still believe that merely speculating an -ate suspect and complex banning Aerilate with Mega Rayquaza is unnecessary.

If the -ate suspect happens, Mega Rayquaza can always be retested. It is agreed that Mega Rayquaza is broken; thus....

BAN THEM ALL!!!
 

Ransei

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To be honest, I don't really like any Pokemon to be banned from a Hackmons metagame and that's the main reason I named my GKR alt GKR No Ban.

On the other hand, Groudon-Primal seems be broken in a lot of ways actually so I'm just going to say Ban Primal Groudon if that works. Mega Rayquaza doesn't seem to be broken apart from the metagame. Mega Rayquaza main set (the -ate set) are kinda like Diancie's and it only shows a bit of ability and power difference and no other set could be used effectively enough to break the meta. Primal Kyogre can be a great power in the metagame but isn't broken as it can be easily taken down by common offensive Pokemon.


Side Edit: Without Groudon-Primal, the metagame would be unbalanced with Mega Ray and Primal Kyogre taking over. Even though I said they were not broken, I don't think it'd be fair to ban just one of the Hoenn Legendary Mega/Primal forms therefore, I just choose to BAN THEM ALL ;~;
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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"I don't have any counterargument so let's procrastinate the problem away cause noone will want to unban raymega later on" doesn't really work especially if you agree that our points are correct. This is basically becoming "I don't like that I have to face it so let's get rid of it" now.

Edited because initial post sounded unreasonably harsh.
 
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