Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

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While I agree people will simply move on to the next most powerful thing, MegaMence has 35 less attack and 60 less special attack than Mega Rayquaza, and regular Rayquaza has 30 less in both attack and special attack, so they will be easier to wall. This would actually be healthier for the metagame, as while they would still be very powerful Pokemon in their own right, the reduced power allows for more Pokemon to emerge as checks and counters. Basically, while I agree with the fact that it will power down these tactics, I fail to see how that is hurtful to the metagame--imo it can only make it healthier.
I mean Balanced Hackmons is a metagame in which banning pokemon is something that has never been done before. The only thing that I could see convincing people that a pokemon should even consider a suspect is the fact they all Mega Rayquaza stats and can carry an item. So with this logic Primal Dialga would be banned if it came out. Mega Rayquaza was obviously more powerful in Ubers but in BH the main 3 are not as overly centeralizing. Chansey is actually used more than these suspects. Mega Rayquaza at #2 barely under Chansey, Primal Groudon at #3 and Primal Kyogre at #10. This at 1760 by the way. Other stats also have Chansey #1. Obviously these 3 pokemon aren't as overly centralizing as everyone in this thread is saying.
 
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Megazard

The turtle moves
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I mean Balanced Hackmons is a metagame in which banning pokemon is something that has never been done before. The only thing that I could see convincing people that a pokemon should even consider a suspect is the fact they all Mega Rayquaza stats and can carry an item. So with this logic Primal Dialga would be banned if it came out. Mega Rayquaza was obviously more powerful in Ubers but in BH the main 3 are not as overly centeralizing. Chansey is actually used more than these suspects. Mega Rayquaza at #2 barely under Chansey, Primal Groudon at #3 and Primal Kyogre at #10. This at 1760 by the way. Other stats also have Chansey #1. Obviously these 3 pokemon aren't as overly centralizing as everyone in this thread is saying.
I don't get this logic. 2 and 3 are huge, 10 is stupid considering how good Primal Kyogre is, and they're under fucking chansey which is so easy to use on like every team that doesn't mean much. Something being over chansey would be ridiculous. Aside from that, you have two of the suspects at the next two highest slots and it's not like 10 is that low. Things don't have to be used a lot on the ladder to be broken, Landorus-I wasn't even top 10 in OU for comparison. Plus, after going for reqs a bit, the ladder also uses plenty of stupid shit like FEAR Goomy. Usage doesnt equal viability, but even if it did that's pretty much in these mons' favor. And it's not like Chansey's gonna be suspected ever.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I mean Balanced Hackmons is a metagame in which banning pokemon is something that has never been done before. The only thing that I could see convincing people that a pokemon should even consider a suspect is the fact they all Mega Rayquaza stats and can carry an item. So with this logic Primal Dialga would be banned if it came out. Mega Rayquaza was obviously more powerful in Ubers but in BH the main 3 are not as overly centeralizing. Chansey is actually used more than these suspects. Mega Rayquaza at #2 barely under Chansey, Primal Groudon at #3 and Primal Kyogre at #10. This at 1760 by the way. Other stats also have Chansey #1. Obviously these 3 pokemon aren't as overly centralizing as everyone in this thread is saying.
yeah! landorus wasn't Top 10 in OU usage its no wonder it wasnt bann-wait. to be fair there was deoxys speed and defense...which were both on the top 10 list when they got ba-wait...thats not true either. well you know what, your entirely right though, mega ray, primal don and primal ogre aren't centralizing, they just force you to run giratina/flying resist/priority that ohkos kyogre on EVERY team. completely not centralizing at all. i'm so glad someone educated all of the veterans of how wrong they are about the ladder based solely on usage statistics.

sarcasm aside, i'm pretty sure you get my points. if you are going to make an assessment based on the meta trends, arguing based on usage stats isn't a valid argument/counterargument, as usage proves nothing other then usage.
 
yeah! landorus wasn't Top 10 in OU usage its no wonder it wasnt bann-wait. to be fair there was deoxys speed and defense...which were both on the top 10 list when they got ba-wait...thats not true either. well you know what, your entirely right though, mega ray, primal don and primal ogre aren't centralizing, they just force you to run giratina/flying resist/priority that ohkos kyogre on EVERY team. completely not centralizing at all. i'm so glad someone educated all of the veterans of how wrong they are about the ladder based solely on usage statistics.

sarcasm aside, i'm pretty sure you get my points. if you are going to make an assessment based on the meta trends, arguing based on usage stats isn't a valid argument/counterargument, as usage proves nothing other then usage.
OU is a tier with more pokemon diversity so things may be lower. But in BH there is less pokemon threats in the metagame but there are more pokemon sets to come through. Just because it has 770 BST and a good type it does not mean it is the most threatening thing in the tier. It is the sets that make these pokemon great. By banning these 3 pokemon your nerfing 100s of sets that use these pokemon.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
OU is a tier with more pokemon diversity so things may be lower. But in BH there is less pokemon threats in the metagame but there are more pokemon sets to come through. Just because it has 770 BST and a good type it does not mean it is the most threatening thing in the tier. It is the sets that make these pokemon great. By banning these 3 pokemon your nerfing 100s of sets that use these pokemon.
yes, and using the usage data justifies your logic right? by the way, by banning these three powerhouses, we open up more potential pokemon, such as gyarados, steelix, regular don, ray, and kyogre and metagross, who have been shot down by these guys, and they get chances to shine, gaining well over 100 new sets to use. so next argument please...?
 
I am not particularly certain the Weather Trio needs to be banned outright. In my opinion all three of them, in their base forms and their primal and mega forms, canon movesets and unrestricted ones, are beatable by a variety of methods. Is it difficult to do so? Sometimes, of course, but not often enough to warrant banning them. A lot of people in hackmons(both the original mod and this one) are "hulk smash!" kinds of players, which are pretty easy to plan for. There aren't only a select few Pokemon that the necessary types and stats to deal with the Weather Trio, as plenty of lesser-used Pokemon in Hackmons can do the job. Here are a couple battles from Pokemon Showdown that help illustrate the point http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243066158
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243067458

This is just low ladder stuff.

Kingslayer pretty much covered it. Anyways, it's petty much agreed upon by all of the best BH players that Pdon is just stupid, so... Yea.
 
The thing with saying that ppl will just use the "next big thing" is that said next big thing isn't nearly as threatening has the hoenn trio.

What's the next big thing after groudon? Blaziken? Ho-oh? Megachom? Litterally nothing can replace groudon or even come close to replacing groudon. I'm conviced that groudon can litteraly run any set to great effect.

The next big thing after primaogre is obviously regular ogre. And while it can probably pull the quiver dance set almost as successfully as primal ogre. The one huge difference between the two is kyogre's HUGE attack stat compared to regular kyogre meaning it can easily run mixed or purely physical sets.
But tbh even if kyogre gets banned I'd still run a hard counter to regular ogre even though regular ogre is easyer to pressure since it doesn't get some ohkoes / 2hkoes that primaogre does and doesn't eat special hits as well.

Megaray is a little bit the same thing as the best abuser of aerialte after him is probably regular ray. But megaray is so freaking powerful even when I'm looking into pokemons that resist it's hits they often still get 2hko unless i run an assault vest or smt. Pokemon like ampharos or aerodactyl mega that have a much easyer time with regular ray.
Another big difference is ray's really low speed tier which again makes him that much easyer to deal with.

As far as diancie goes i think the flying type is better than the fairy type for 3 reasons. Fire types, stuff like ho-oh, volcanion, charizard, heatran can check / counter diancie and are actually really viable in bh (possibly way more if ray gets banned). You don't kill grass / bug, this is minor but ferrothorn, scizor or venusaur are actually really decent in bh but the main reason i personally stopped using them or used them less is megaray, gengar is also a great check to diancie. Lastly, and that is huge, the weaker bulk + 4X weakness to steel means that any steel type can easily kill diancie, just using a regen pivot with bullet punch is usually enough to deal with diancie something that you cannot do with megaray. Other minor things include ray's defensive typing making him immune to Tspikes / spikes, ground move like thousand waves and resistant to water / grass which makes it easyer for him to swith on stuff.

Tbh one thing that makes -ate kinda overpowered is thousand arrows since it basicly gives coverage against any type that resist your stab while completely ignoring levitate or flying type and that's completely stupid. But that's a debate for another day.

I feel like i wrote a lot of bullshit in this comment but I'm too tired to re-read it so I'll just leave it like that and maybe edit it later, lol. But yeah, there aren't much things that can relly replace the hoenn trio. Specially don, that thing is stupid.
 
After managing to get reqs I feel that now's a good time to leave my input on the suspect.

Primal Groudon:
A large amount of people want this thing to go, and it's not hard to see why. It can run several different sets that all have lots of viability, with most of its sets involving wallbreaking or sweeping. With a very spammable STAB Thousand Arrows coming off from a base 180 Attack, there is literally no switch ins to this monster. At +2 Attack, everything in the tier gets OHKOed, with the exception of the most defensive mons, who are just set up bait to begin with, or can't do anything back in return. Ban.

Mega Rayquaza:
This mon is a devastating Aerialate Abuser. With 180 in both offensive stats and 115 Speed, Mega Rayquaza can smack opponents hard with its Flying type STAB. Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed allows MegaRay to easily pick off weakened mons with little effort, and Boomburst wallbreaks. MegaRay forces one to bring a Flying resist to take on its attacks, such as Registeel, but with its high offensive stats, one could easily switch up one of the moves for a proper coverage move, such as Thousand Arrows for an incoming Steel Type. Ban.

Primal Kyogre:

When first looking at this suspect, I didn't see Kyogre as much of a threat at all, since PDon and MegaRay are much more dangerous, but Primal Kyogre is not one to under estimate at all. With Quiver Dance under it's belt, it can set up on with ease and has the potential to wreck an entire team if it gets out of hand. It can also be hard to stop, since almost every QD set runs Poison Heal Toxic Orb. STAB Steam Eruption hits hard and has a burn chance and also STAB Water Spout smacks any would be switch ins very hard as well. Primal Kyogre also has the potential to beat Imposter Chancey 1v1 due to it's large special bulk and the potential to burn Chansey, while avoiding a burn by running Poison Heal, and Shedinja can be beaten with Leech Seed. It's centralizing nature its overall unhealthy for the metagame, as mentioned by previous people.
Primal Kyogre is exactly like gen 5 Regigigas, except it's used in a metagame with frail Pokemon and limited offensive checks, courtesy of the -ates limiting offense, of course. I believe many underestimate Primal Kyogre solely because it's seen exclusively as a setup Pokemon; however, don't be fooled, for Kyogre can adapt to all kinds of situations. For example, instead of using Quiver Dance straight-away, you could use Water Spout or Scald to greatly damags potential switch-ins expecting Primal Kyogre to use Quiver Dance.
Leaning Towards Ban.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
OK, time for some unpopular opinions :/
Mega Ray: Ban. It's so bulky and powerful and fast - better than diancie in every way. Flying is a better stab type than fairy, beating groudon. It can use gale wings or aerilate. Bulky sets aren't too terrible. Get this thing gone. Great quote from motherlove:
As far as diancie goes i think the flying type is better than the fairy type for 3 reasons. Fire types, stuff like ho-oh, volcanion, charizard, heatran can check / counter diancie and are actually really viable in bh (possibly way more if ray gets banned). You don't kill grass / bug, this is minor but ferrothorn, scizor or venusaur are actually really decent in bh but the main reason i personally stopped using them or used them less is megaray, gengar is also a great check to diancie. Lastly, and that is huge, the weaker bulk + 4X weakness to steel means that any steel type can easily kill diancie, just using a regen pivot with bullet punch is usually enough to deal with diancie something that you cannot do with megaray. Other minor things include ray's defensive typing making him immune to Tspikes / spikes, ground move like thousand waves and resistant to water / grass which makes it easyer for him to swith on stuff.
It outclasses so much stuff and is way too versatile. It was banned from AG and is almost as dominant here (besides the fact that chansey is everywhere)
P-Kyogre: No Ban. To me this is just the flavor of the month being used over Giratina. It's barely better than regular kyogre, as 50 points go to attack. I honestly think this hype train will die soon. Regular kyogre pulls off these setup sets just as well since Blue Orb doesn't even grant any defense. It isn't nearly as good as the other suspects and should be happy to just be included in the discussion.
P-Groudon: No Ban. I don't know why. I really don't. This is just my gut feeling. Steam eruption beats shedinja too, it isn't just for groudon. I talked in the species clause thread about the tournament where I beat the four PG guy and how Big 5 + chansey won it. It came down to a Ray speed tie. M-Ray is the face of BH just like it was in Ubers and overshadows him. But why no ban? I don't know. It's just my gut feeling. Water moves counter it since it doesn't have explosive priority, unlike ray.

What needs a Ban: Nickname Clause. When you face six kyogres and cant tell them apart then there is real trouble. The ability to know your opponents sets but not be able to tell is disgusting. We need a nickname clause now.
Baton Pass. I hate this move with a burning passion. It is uncounterable and has higher win rates than any other strategy. I was messing around today and got this result: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243578294
Baton Pass creates so many unbalanced uncounterable bullshit strategies that eliminate skill - I can play like a four year old and still win that game. Watch these:
(not only shamelessly plugging myself) and you can see that this move is unhealthy in any format any day week month or year.
 
Baton Pass. I hate this move with a burning passion. It is uncounterable and has higher win rates than any other strategy. I was messing around today and got this result: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243578294
Baton Pass creates so many unbalanced uncounterable bullshit strategies that eliminate skill - I can play like a four year old and still win that game.
Ummmm, no. A clearly low-ladder replay (and if he's not low ladder, then... how the heck did he get so high with that team?) is not evidence of a move being broken, especially since the clinch to your chain relied on your opponent not switching out of Gengar from Xtwo's Normalize. Any half-competent player would have switched out instantly as soon as Gengar-normal appeared. And speaking as someone who has used Baton Pass not only in high ladder matches, not only against competent players (such as Flint recently), but also in official tournaments (hi Kit!), I can assure you there are plenty of ways to shut Baton Pass down very, very hard. For example, in your instance, the moment I'd see Ingrain would be the moment I'd be laughing while clicking Perish Song.

Baton Pass is not like it is in standard because any Pokemon can be Unaware, carry Perish Song, carry Heart Swap (all your boost are belong to me!), and so on and so forth. It's trivial to shut a chain down with decent play, even if not preparing for Baton Pass.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
I just played a game where the guy HAD heart swap pranskter aero and still lost to my skymin after that received a pass from my chansey, which had copied his boosted speed pass giratina. Perish song means you die too if I have mega gengar. Unaware loses to stored power. IF you really think baton pass isn't broken then clearly you have not looked at how often it wins.

yeah! landorus wasn't Top 10 in OU usage its no wonder it wasnt bann-wait. to be fair there was deoxys speed and defense...which were both on the top 10 list when they got ba-wait...thats not true either. well you know what, your entirely right though, mega ray, primal don and primal ogre aren't centralizing, they just force you to run giratina/flying resist/priority that ohkos kyogre on EVERY team. completely not centralizing at all. i'm so glad someone educated all of the veterans of how wrong they are about the ladder based solely on usage statistics.

sarcasm aside, i'm pretty sure you get my points. if you are going to make an assessment based on the meta trends, arguing based on usage stats isn't a valid argument/counterargument, as usage proves nothing other then usage.
I love how you bring up the thre most undeserved bans in ou history. Mawile greninja and mence were disgusting, and aegislash was pretty centralizing. But both deo forms were banned because we didn't know what rapid spin was or could beat +2 bisharps (which isn't that hard, especially in this oras meta so free deo-d?) and lando was just broken in theorymon, not in practice, which is why it was banned and not used- you dont get 7 moves calm mind boost and plus two speed automatically. oh wait ou council is stupid thats why they are banned.
(sry if this is a shit post but im tired of people saying usage /=/ viability.)
 
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I just played a game where the guy HAD heart swap pranskter aero and still lost to my skymin after that received a pass from my chansey, which had copied his boosted speed pass giratina. Perish song means you die too if I have mega gengar. Unaware loses to stored power. IF you really think baton pass isn't broken then clearly you have not looked at how often it wins.


I love how you bring up the thre most undeserved bans in ou history. Mawile greninja and mence were disgusting, and aegislash was pretty centralizing. But both deo forms were banned because we didn't know what rapid spin was or could beat +2 bisharps (which isn't that hard, especially in this oras meta so free deo-d?) and lando was just broken in theorymon, not in practice, which is why it was banned and not used- you dont get 7 moves calm mind boost and plus two speed automatically. oh wait ou council is stupid thats why they are banned.
(sry if this is a shit post but im tired of people saying usage /=/ viability.)
I'm sick so I'm keeping this short.

You played against an idiot. Rapid spin didn't exist in deo-s/d meta because aegislash blocked everything but drill and even then it could block drill depending on the set, also the deos were great as offensive and defensive mons having an amazing defensive typing and redic coverage/speed. Bisharp was an amazing partner for the deos because of the free hazards they were 100% getting up but not what alone broke them.

And usage stats =/= viability especially in tiers with bad stats, like triples / BH.

To be straight with you, the second I read what you said about Pdon being no ban, I laughed and discarded your opinion, I think quite a few other people will do the same without saying it.

Also calling out the OU council because your opinion doesn't match theirs when yours is so stupidly formed and you don't even understand all the facts of decisions being made is just redic.
 
In my Opinion , using the trio makes team OP. But without them things can be OP as well. It all depends on how u are using your own team and whether u are ladder prepared or not.

A team with Kyogre-P and Mega Ray
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243206982

A team without GKR
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243478351

Of the Trio, Groudon-Primal is probably the most powerful one as it can basically play any role. And the lower ladder isn't prepared to handle that.

A choice banded Groudon-Primal OHKO's Kygre-Primal.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primal Kyogre: 522-616 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It even has high chance to OHKO a Giratina without defense ivs and Impish Nature(Most people run Calm Nature).

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Giratina: 482-568 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 528-624 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Given gimmicky abilities like Adaptability, it can almost OHKO anything with Precipice Blades/Arrows or at least 2HKO. Low ladders won't be able to handle it at all.
 
What needs a Ban: Nickname Clause. When you face six kyogres and cant tell them apart then there is real trouble. The ability to know your opponents sets but not be able to tell is disgusting. We need a nickname clause now.
I agree with everyone else who has explained the fallacy of all your other arguments. I also feel the need to point out that we do have Nickname Clause already; however, that doesn't extend to the normal name of the Pokemon.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I just played a game where the guy HAD heart swap pranskter aero and still lost to my skymin after that received a pass from my chansey, which had copied his boosted speed pass giratina. Perish song means you die too if I have mega gengar. Unaware loses to stored power. IF you really think baton pass isn't broken then clearly you have not looked at how often it wins.


I love how you bring up the thre most undeserved bans in ou history. Mawile greninja and mence were disgusting, and aegislash was pretty centralizing. But both deo forms were banned because we didn't know what rapid spin was or could beat +2 bisharps (which isn't that hard, especially in this oras meta so free deo-d?) and lando was just broken in theorymon, not in practice, which is why it was banned and not used- you dont get 7 moves calm mind boost and plus two speed automatically. oh wait ou council is stupid thats why they are banned.
(sry if this is a shit post but im tired of people saying usage /=/ viability.)
so your saying the OU council is stupid...for not using usage statistics for banning things? i love how you argue the bans were undeserved, yet apparently over 50% of the OU playerbase clearly disagrees considering they are all banned(its not something the council decides on, the community who achieves 2000~ [aka, people who are skilled in the meta] votes for it) so saying its "undeserved" is like saying green apples are better then red ones, its ALL opinion, one clearly yours isn't common ground with.

also i love your arguments "we didnt know what rapid spin was" lmao. yeah, and you clearly dont know what a spinblocker/offensive pressure is. "or could beat +2 bisharps" lmfao again, offensive pressure made defogging harder then it sounds. your forgetting deoxys was used for "hyper offense" which applies enough offensive pressure to prevent you from removing the hazards.

are you forgetting greninja was #4 in usage when it was banned? sure, thats closer then 10, but far from 1, so why wasn't landorus therian banned before it? it WAS #1 in usage at the time..it clearly must be more broken then ninja.

also my biggest point at hand...mawiles ranking when it was banned...:
| 26 | Mawile | 8.224% |
yeah. a measly 26. clearly not banworthy by your logic. but wait...you mentioned it being broken in your post...make up your mind!

usage does not mean viable. just because something is used a LOT does not mean its banworthy. same goes the other way around.
 
I just played a game where the guy HAD heart swap pranskter aero and still lost to my skymin after that received a pass from my chansey, which had copied his boosted speed pass giratina. Perish song means you die too if I have mega gengar. Unaware loses to stored power. IF you really think baton pass isn't broken then clearly you have not looked at how often it wins.
Prankster Heartswap Aero.... what? That's a thing? Does Aero even need Prankster with its huge speed stat?

Also, winning against someone who has a check doesn't mean something is broken. That's like saying we should ban Giratina because the team with it managed to beat a team with a sweeper Gengar or two. Or that Trick Room should be banned because it beat a team with an -ate check to most of its mons.

So first of all, again, your strategy heavily relies on the opponent not switching out of Normalize. You're only going to catch a good player, or even a decent player, on a misplay since your Gengar can't even Skill Swap itself. And even then, Parting Shot is the most common switching move in the game that doesn't care about your Substitute. And then Whirlwind doesn't care about that, your Protect, or your evasion boosts. And also, Stored Power loses to Dark-types, who are not uncommon in the meta. Hope you have coverage and you better pray they're not the Unaware.

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I play Baton Pass in BH. I've played it in forum tournaments, room tournaments, high ladder, and during this suspect test. My team is based on Deniss' OU Baton Pass team... you know, the one that got BP banned in standard? If there's anything in your replay that's broken, it's Shadow Tag, which is a banned ability for a reason. Without it, your whole strategy just crumbles.
 
P-Groudon: No Ban. I don't know why. I really don't. This is just my gut feeling. Steam eruption beats shedinja too, it isn't just for groudon. I talked in the species clause thread about the tournament where I beat the four PG guy and how Big 5 + chansey won it. It came down to a Ray speed tie. M-Ray is the face of BH just like it was in Ubers and overshadows him. But why no ban? I don't know. It's just my gut feeling. Water moves counter it since it doesn't have explosive priority, unlike ray.
So your argument for no ban is P-Don can get OHKOed so don't ban it? That's just dumb. There is literally no other way I can put this. It's a bad argument. Water Types don't just straight counter Primal Groudon at all. Don had Desolate Land, Tinted Lens, and Mold Breaker, which can crack just about any Water Type "counter" you throw at it. Primal Groudon has near limitless potential for sets, there aren't a lot of ways to run him wrong. If you want hard evidence of what he can do check out my previous posts on the subject on the ladder thread.

Baton Pass creates so many unbalanced uncounterable bullshit strategies that eliminate skill - I can play like a four year old and still win that game.
Baton Pass is an "anti meta" strategy. It's success depends on how underprepared the ladder is for it. Thanks to the centralizing nature of the Hoenn Trio, set up is underprepared for and can be very successful without much real effort. But even so Baton Pass is very easy to beat for a highly skilled player even if not prepared for. Unless you can show me a BP team that peaks ladder+beats several highly skilled players, then a BP suspect should not even be considered.

(sry if this is a shit post but im tired of people saying usage /=/ viability.)
Usage does not equal viability. Usage indicates the flexibility and popularity of a Pokemon. Highly viable pokemon are often highly used, but a Pokemon with low usage can be more viable then a Pokemon with higher usage. There Is plenty of evidence to back this up.
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
I'm sick so I'm keeping this short.

You played against an idiot. Rapid spin didn't exist in deo-s/d meta because aegislash blocked everything but drill and even then it could block drill depending on the set, also the deos were great as offensive and defensive mons having an amazing defensive typing and redic coverage/speed. Bisharp was an amazing partner for the deos because of the free hazards they were 100% getting up but not what alone broke them.

And usage stats =/= viability especially in tiers with bad stats, like triples / BH.

To be straight with you, the second I read what you said about Pdon being no ban, I laughed and discarded your opinion, I think quite a few other people will do the same without saying it.

Also calling out the OU council because your opinion doesn't match theirs when yours is so stupidly formed and you don't even understand all the facts of decisions being made is just redic.
Well at least now that aegislash is banned the deos should be retested. But the ou council is stupid and will not retest it. Deo-S may have been good offensively too but Deo-D was not at all banworthy. The rise of stallbreaker mew would also counter it; it only had the lead set basically. Someone made a great point: If you lose to bisharp after it gets a defiant boost you had nothing for sd bisharp. So only bad players were losing to this strategy.
Then you say bh has bad stats, look at the highest stats. Even there Kyogre is low. I really don't like people who make the "ladder is aids but I am not" argument, and then you discard my opinion, just proving that you don't really know what you are saying.
so your saying the OU council is stupid...for not using usage statistics for banning things? i love how you argue the bans were undeserved, yet apparently over 50% of the OU playerbase clearly disagrees considering they are all banned(its not something the council decides on, the community who achieves 2000~ [aka, people who are skilled in the meta] votes for it) so saying its "undeserved" is like saying green apples are better then red ones, its ALL opinion, one clearly yours isn't common ground with.

also i love your arguments "we didnt know what rapid spin was" lmao. yeah, and you clearly dont know what a spinblocker/offensive pressure is. "or could beat +2 bisharps" lmfao again, offensive pressure made defogging harder then it sounds. your forgetting deoxys was used for "hyper offense" which applies enough offensive pressure to prevent you from removing the hazards.

are you forgetting greninja was #4 in usage when it was banned? sure, thats closer then 10, but far from 1, so why wasn't landorus therian banned before it? it WAS #1 in usage at the time..it clearly must be more broken then ninja.

also my biggest point at hand...mawiles ranking when it was banned...:
| 26 | Mawile | 8.224% |
yeah. a measly 26. clearly not banworthy by your logic. but wait...you mentioned it being broken in your post...make up your mind!

usage does not mean viable. just because something is used a LOT does not mean its banworthy. same goes the other way around.
The bans were undeserved not because of the usage stats, those are just simultaneous events. It goes to show that the bans were undeserved, people weren't abusing it because it wasnt op. Greninja had disgusting usage, it was on all of my offense teams. Why? Because it was so good. Mawile had low usage because aegislash was legal. The order of the bans was wrong, but they were still both banworthy (well for aegislash it was more of a philosophical question than one based on opness) Usage isnt the exact viability, but when you get to S rank mons or suspects, then it is. (mega amphy has a niche and i know that but i never use it. But between s rank mons ofc i will use charx more than clefable) And when i say council i guess i mean the voters as well. but look at the nonsense voter restrictions that the ou council is creating. They clearly want some people to vote more than others. and once again now that aegislash is gone spinblocking is dead.
 

Megazard

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Well at least now that aegislash is banned the deos should be retested. But the ou council is stupid and will not retest it. Deo-S may have been good offensively too but Deo-D was not at all banworthy. The rise of stallbreaker mew would also counter it; it only had the lead set basically. Someone made a great point: If you lose to bisharp after it gets a defiant boost you had nothing for sd bisharp. So only bad players were losing to this strategy.
Then you say bh has bad stats, look at the highest stats. Even there Kyogre is low. I really don't like people who make the "ladder is aids but I am not" argument, and then you discard my opinion, just proving that you don't really know what you are saying.

The bans were undeserved not because of the usage stats, those are just simultaneous events. It goes to show that the bans were undeserved, people weren't abusing it because it wasnt op. Greninja had disgusting usage, it was on all of my offense teams. Why? Because it was so good. Mawile had low usage because aegislash was legal. The order of the bans was wrong, but they were still both banworthy (well for aegislash it was more of a philosophical question than one based on opness) Usage isnt the exact viability, but when you get to S rank mons or suspects, then it is. (mega amphy has a niche and i know that but i never use it. But between s rank mons ofc i will use charx more than clefable) And when i say council i guess i mean the voters as well. but look at the nonsense voter restrictions that the ou council is creating. They clearly want some people to vote more than others. and once again now that aegislash is gone spinblocking is dead.
I won't touch on your braindead logic, but why are we now arguing about OU's banning policy and stuff in the BH suspect thread? Or linking multiple YT videos that aren't in BH?
edit: I brought up OU first, and that was purely as an example of why usage doesnt equal viability, talking about why things were banned and whether or not they should be is totally different
 
I mean Balanced Hackmons is a metagame in which banning pokemon is something that has never been done before. The only thing that I could see convincing people that a pokemon should even consider a suspect is the fact they all Mega Rayquaza stats and can carry an item. So with this logic Primal Dialga would be banned if it came out. Mega Rayquaza was obviously more powerful in Ubers but in BH the main 3 are not as overly centeralizing. Chansey is actually used more than these suspects. Mega Rayquaza at #2 barely under Chansey, Primal Groudon at #3 and Primal Kyogre at #10. This at 1760 by the way. Other stats also have Chansey #1. Obviously these 3 pokemon aren't as overly centralizing as everyone in this thread is saying.
another reason the Hoenn Trio are suspected rather than chansey is due to their unpredictability. while chansey is pretty much guaranteed imposter/fur coat, megaray, primaldon, and primal ogre all have a vast variety of viable movesets available. the uncertainty of the sets makes it nearly impossible to check or counter, as your "check" may as well end up being nuked by a different set you weren't prepared for. then you watch in stunned disbelief as they bring out their other set, which your check/counter,now ko'd, could've walled.
Well at least now that aegislash is banned the deos should be retested. But the ou council is stupid and will not retest it. Deo-S may have been good offensively too but Deo-D was not at all banworthy. The rise of stallbreaker mew would also counter it; it only had the lead set basically. Someone made a great point: If you lose to bisharp after it gets a defiant boost you had nothing for sd bisharp. So only bad players were losing to this strategy.
Then you say bh has bad stats, look at the highest stats. Even there Kyogre is low. I really don't like people who make the "ladder is aids but I am not" argument, and then you discard my opinion, just proving that you don't really know what you are saying.

The bans were undeserved not because of the usage stats, those are just simultaneous events. It goes to show that the bans were undeserved, people weren't abusing it because it wasnt op. Greninja had disgusting usage, it was on all of my offense teams. Why? Because it was so good. Mawile had low usage because aegislash was legal. The order of the bans was wrong, but they were still both banworthy (well for aegislash it was more of a philosophical question than one based on opness) Usage isnt the exact viability, but when you get to S rank mons or suspects, then it is. (mega amphy has a niche and i know that but i never use it. But between s rank mons ofc i will use charx more than clefable) And when i say council i guess i mean the voters as well. but look at the nonsense voter restrictions that the ou council is creating. They clearly want some people to vote more than others. and once again now that aegislash is gone spinblocking is dead.
I agree with Megazard, why argue about OU policies in BH suspect?
and honestly, i dont get your logic. what's the point of mentioning mega amphy? and your personal opinion of choosing char-x over clefable doesn't actually signify which one's better; char-x is for balanced/HO, clefable for stall. you're comparing two completely different things, making your opinion worthless.
anyway,to point out flaws among your arguments
mawile had low usage because aegislash was legal.
likewise, you can say "kyogre has low usage because megaray is legal". ban megaray but not primal ogre, and primal ogre will suddenly shoot up the usage stats, as megaray is a constant threat to primal ogre due to aerilate priority.
greninja had disgusting usage...because it was so good.
"megaray has disgusting usage because its so good". once again, just mirroring the OU suspects to right now in BH. greninja wasn't #1 in usage, neither was megaray. greninja got banned. and, good is an opinion. is it truly "good"? that's for everyone's own opinion. don't say that it deserved being banned because you thought it should've been banned.
your earlier post: "mawile, greninja, and mence were disgusting". relative usage stats: "primal ogre,megaray,and primaldon were disgusting". and, once again, disgusting is an opinion. if anything, mawile,greninja,and mence in ou are tamer than the hoenn trio in BH,because at least in OU,their sets are predictable and easily walled. BH? not at all
water moves counter primal groudon
what about megaray? it also has a 4x weakness to ice! might as well say, "ice moves counter megaray, so it shouldn't be banned" at least primaldon can run desolate land, storm drain,or water absorb to overcome that while megaray has...thick fat? delta stream?
steam eruption is for shedinja too
um...no. have you heard of refresh or recycle+lum berry before? gl with beating shed! oh, i know! stall out its recycles-wait...i knew i shouldve used scald! okay,scald and stall out shedinja's recycles-wait, scald only has 30% burn rate,and 24 pp...that's average 7.2 burns for all of the pp...nope,not going to hit shedinja with this.
because megaray was even banned to AG
well,the major reason it went to AG was because it didnt even need an item to mega. it could run life orb to boost its already insanely high stats, and it also happened to have access to a very powerful flying move; of which, flying has the best single-type coverage among any type. in BH, no mega or primal needs their held item, and any poke can learn any real move, other than hyperspace fury,reserved for hoopa-u. so your comment about megaray being banned to AG is irrelevant.
When you face six kyogres and cant tell them apart then there is real trouble. The ability to know your opponents sets but not be able to tell is disgusting. We need a nickname clause now.
and this is partially why primal ogre should be banned. it's not because of equal nicknames, but because of all the different yet viable sets that primal ogre can run. see 1 move, and you could probably be able to identify which kyogre is which, regardless. nickname clause is not needed at all.
 
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Well at least now that aegislash is banned the deos should be retested. But the ou council is stupid and will not retest it. Deo-S may have been good offensively too but Deo-D was not at all banworthy. The rise of stallbreaker mew would also counter it; it only had the lead set basically. Someone made a great point: If you lose to bisharp after it gets a defiant boost you had nothing for sd bisharp. So only bad players were losing to this strategy.
Then you say bh has bad stats, look at the highest stats. Even there Kyogre is low. I really don't like people who make the "ladder is aids but I am not" argument, and then you discard my opinion, just proving that you don't really know what you are saying.

The bans were undeserved not because of the usage stats, those are just simultaneous events. It goes to show that the bans were undeserved, people weren't abusing it because it wasnt op. Greninja had disgusting usage, it was on all of my offense teams. Why? Because it was so good. Mawile had low usage because aegislash was legal. The order of the bans was wrong, but they were still both banworthy (well for aegislash it was more of a philosophical question than one based on opness) Usage isnt the exact viability, but when you get to S rank mons or suspects, then it is. (mega amphy has a niche and i know that but i never use it. But between s rank mons ofc i will use charx more than clefable) And when i say council i guess i mean the voters as well. but look at the nonsense voter restrictions that the ou council is creating. They clearly want some people to vote more than others. and once again now that aegislash is gone spinblocking is dead.
Ou is competely irrelevant to this discussion, but Defiant Bisharp gets boosts up much quicker then SD Bisharp (and can run SD itself), Deo-D and S are the perfect hazard leads, not even Taunt Mew would counter them because Mental Herb + Twave/Taunt. And higher voting restrictions help ensure ppl who know what they are talking about are the ones who are voting.

But thats not the topic at hand. Once again you use usage to determine Kyogre isn't banworthy, and that "its only a little better then regular Kyogre" i really can't tell you how wrong this is. Back in XY, Ph Kyogre was a meta defining sweeper. There was suspect talk even back then. Primal Kyogre is a strict upgrade, gaining Attack and making PH Coil sets a contender with Quiver Dance. It has insane Special Attack and Defense. It's defensive bulk and speed weren't increased, but investment patches the defense issues and it doesn't totally require speed to work. I played with a team of 2 PH Ogres for reqs+previous laddering. And i can personally tell you PH Kyogre is broken, because it is inevitability itself. Its so god damn bulky and powerful. Its "counters" tend to struggle with the damage Water Spout/Burns, becoming more worn out every time they "counter" PH Ogre until evantually they break and Kyogre sweeps. Never mind what it can do with Scarf+Tinted Lens. Or the multitude of other viable sets. Unless you can pull better arguments, I don't really see why people should listen to you.
 
P-Groudon: No Ban.
I'm sorry but that's all I need to completely discredit all your arguments.

Just saying.


Anyway, I'm just here to say that after laddering for the suspect test, I'm going to have to agree that Kyogre is banworthy.

But I'm still not convinced MegaRay is broken. I just... don't see it as THAT MUCH BETTER than Diancie. I just don't. Someone care to enlighten me?
 
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