Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Server Moderator
Community Leader
While I don't have much of anything to say on assist Groudon, I'm perplexed as to why people are suggesting bans that aren't Assist.

Assist is essentially a stupid strategy that wins based on team match-up and nothing more. If thousand arrows is banned, is there any reason why assist banded v-create backed by drought wouldn't take over? Granted, it would be worse mostly because of Flash Fire, but it would still be completely unfair how it serves to crush certain teams despite being beaten by others. It doesn't matter if there are counters, the point still stands that such strategies only exist to fuck up certain teams and force them to run sub-par shit just to defeat Assist.

If Groudon-P is banned (which verbatim said is out of the question for obvious reasons, but let's just assume for the sake of argument) there's still things like assist V-Create Darmanitans, Assist Thousand Arrows Garchomp-Mega (everyone seems to have forgotten this is another Ground type with only 10 less attack that could pretty much do the exact same thing Groudon does...) and plenty of other repulsive assist users like Dragon Ascent Rayquaza. Of course they're more manageable, but once again, why on earth would we want to keep a strategy that wins or loses based on team match up and abuses chatterhax on the side?

We shouldn't be banning other things just so we can keep using retarded gimmicks that take no skill whatsoever to use.

EDIT: Not to mention banning thousand arrows or Groudon-P would cause FAR more collateral damage than banning Assist.
I was going to write a post again just before the poll but I think I should just reiterate Klang's since this is basically my opinion as well.
 
It's the elephant in the room. Chatter. At a glance, it's understandable as to why this issue makes people feel uncomfortable when raised. Banning a move just for the luck-based situations it creates? When we look into it more closely however, we begin to see why it's so unhealthy for the metagame. Unfair strategies, especially luck-based ones, have always been frowned upon. Why should Chatter be any different? We cannot sweep this "awkward" issue under the rug for any longer, lest we want the rug to smell like shit.
 
Let's analyze Chatter, shall we...

Chatter itself

Chatter is a BP 65 Flying-typed special move that has a 100% chance to inflict confusion in normal circumstances. It does not make contact, therefore dodging the effects of things like King's Shield, Rocky Helmet, and Iron Barbs. It is also a sound-based move, meaning it bypasses Substitute but is blocked by Soundproof. As a Flying-typed move, there are no type-based immunities.

Confusion causes a Pokemon to lose its turn 50% of the time with no sort of diminishing return on punching yourself in the face. As such, it's perfectly possible for a victim to never move until it wears off, giving the Confusion-inducer plenty of time to attack, set-up, or what have you. Additionally, if a Pokemon fails to move due to sleep or freeze, it does not reduce the length of time the Pokemon is confused, AFAIK. (Correct me if I'm wrong there since I rarely bother to confuse slept or frozen Pokemon.) If a Pokemon loses its turn, it also inflicts damage on itself based on its Attack stat, as such inflicting either chip or significant damage. Confusion is also passed by Baton Pass, meaning you cannot BP pivot out of the status.


Chatter Abuses

Chatter benefits both offense and stall. Offensive pokemon can use the free turns to attack or safely set-up a sweep. Or, in some cases, such as Tail Glow Mega-Ray, sweep with Chatter itself. Stall can use the turns to lock down their opponent, recover, and whittle down their health. Balance can, of course, do both.

If a Pokemon can fit Chatter in its moveset, there is rarely any downsides to doing so short of the opportunity cost of using the moveslot for something else, since the 100% confusion effect is very powerful and is only stopped by niche abilities. Lum and Persim berries stop the confusion, but this allows the Pokemon to "break" the berries and inflict other nasty status freely, such as burns from Sacred Fire.

Chatter can be combined with moves such as Nuzzle, Glare, and Air Slash to lock an opponent down, making it even less likely they can ever move. This is especially true for some moves when combined with Serene Grace.

Chatter can be used with Mold Breaker to bypass any of its ability-based checks. It can also be used with Unnerve to bypass berries, though I have not seen that yet.

Chatter can be boosted with Gale Wings to give it +1 priority, allowing common users to confuse common Pranksters before they can act, as well as revenge KO/confuse most sweepers. It also allows slow, bulky Pokemon to safely confuse near anything before they have a chance to attack and threaten the Pokemon.

Chatter can also be paired with Sheer Force for a boost in damage at the cost of no longer confusing, but why would you do that?

Chatter Counters

Chatter is hard-stopped by Soundproof. However, most Soundproof users are Perish Trappers or Boomburst checkers and are frequently vulnerable to some coverage the Chatter users often carry. For example, Registeel is vulnerable to Earth Power and Blue Flare, Slowbro-Mega to nearly any special move, Giratina to Spacial Rend (notable since many Chatter users are Mega-Ray), and Audino, while bulky, isn't bulky enough to take hits well on both sides with even investment. Mold Breaker and Entrainment also bypass Soundproof completely.

The confusion aspect of Chatter is hard-stopped by Shield Dust and Own Tempo. Shield Dust isn't too bad of an ability, but it's most used for anti-Imposter shenanigans by teams with a Serene Grace user. Coverage, again, is also an issue. Own Tempo is used far less and the last legit use of it I saw outside of Chatter checking was a bulky sweeper using Swagger to either confuse the opponent or get boosts from Magic Bounce... back in Gen V. Also, again, Mold Breaker and Entrainment also bypass Soundproof completely.


Chatter Checks

Lum Berry and Persim Berry let the holder shrug off the confusion, letting them act. Problem is, unless you outspeed, which is hard to do against Mega-Rayquaza and near impossible against Gale Wings, these Pokemon cannot switch in safely. And even then, they can only do it once without Harvest or Recycle. Not to mention, Knock Off vulnerability. And even then, there's no guarantee you'll be able to do anything to the Chatter user. Kyu-W might be able to Boomburst Mega-Ray into oblivion, but Primal-Kyo will just scoff at it and Chatter again. As such, berry checks are unreliable checks.

Resistant types, like Registeel or Regirock. However, they can still get haxed down into oblivion by Confusion or plastered by coverage moves while confused. As such, they are unreliable checks.

Dual-Regen core, such as AV Regen Kyo-P and AV Regen Regirock, can switch back and forth while shrugging off damage like it's nothing and ignoring confusion damage. However, the only thing they can reliably do is PP stall Chatter, since confusion hax. Also, the Chatter abuser can also just set-up as they dry switch back and forth, as many carry either Substitute, Tail Glow, and/or Quiver Dance.

Tangled Feet can potentially allow a victim to outspeed and revenge KO a Chatter abuser. But, this ability serves almost no purpose beyond this function and, even then, the 50% chance of losing your turn is still present, making this strategy horrifically unreliable.


So what makes Chatter suspect worthy and not other confusion?

All other generally reliable forms of confusion, such as Swagger and Teeter Dance, are reflected by Magic Bounce, making them risky to use with anything except Mold Breaker, and Magic Coat, which even Mold Breaker cannot bypass. Additionally, they are stopped by Substitute and Taunt. Also, they do not directly inflict damage, thus a Pokemon cannot sweep with the move alone. And finally, Swagger is risky because Lum Berry is a common item and many Pokemon would appreciate the free attack boost.

Supersonic bypasses Substitute, but with 55% accuracy, it requires usage of No Guard, which makes it vulnerable to Magic Bounce. Also, No Guard itself is a risky move because the opponent will never miss your No Guard user either. Additionally, Supersonic is stopped by Soundproof and, since it does no direct damage, give the user a 100% safe switch-in.

Dynamic Punch mandates No Guard to be reliable, costing an ability slot right from the get go. While strong, it has very low PP of 8, the Confusion is blocked by Substitute, and Ghosts, including the very common Giratina, are flat-out immune to it. Also, No Guard itself is a risky move because the opponent will never miss your No Guard user either.


So my stance on this?

Here's where we get to the realm of opinion. And my opinion is Chatter is definitely worth considering to ban since matches devolve into RNG fests when it is applied, its checks are unreliable, its counters have very few functions outside of countering Chatter, and even then they don't always work, and near literally anything in the metagame can run Chatter effectively.

I mean heck, at least with Evasion, No Guard and Unaware could consistently ignore it, Mold Breaker or not, and you could steal the boosts to make the strategy backfire horribly or force them out with a perfectly accurate Whirlwind. And that still got the boot for turning matches into dice rolling contests rather than displays of skill and strategic cunning. Chatter cannot be reliably stopped by any means that I'm aware of, if just because Mold Breaker exists, the confusion bypasses Substitute, and confusion-curing berries only work once without specific moves or abilities.

So, yeah, I'd be in favor of banning Chatter. But again, this last section is just my opinion.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Let's analyze Chatter, shall we...

Chatter itself

Chatter is a BP 65 Flying-typed special move that has a 100% chance to inflict confusion in normal circumstances. It does not make contact, therefore dodging the effects of things like King's Shield, Rocky Helmet, and Iron Barbs. It is also a sound-based move, meaning it bypasses Substitute but is blocked by Soundproof. As a Flying-typed move, there are no type-based immunities.

Confusion causes a Pokemon to lose its turn 50% of the time with no sort of diminishing return on punching yourself in the face. As such, it's perfectly possible for a victim to never move until it wears off, giving the Confusion-inducer plenty of time to attack, set-up, or what have you. Additionally, if a Pokemon fails to move due to sleep or freeze, it does not reduce the length of time the Pokemon is confused, AFAIK. (Correct me if I'm wrong there since I rarely bother to confuse slept or frozen Pokemon.) If a Pokemon loses its turn, it also inflicts damage on itself based on its Attack stat, as such inflicting either chip or significant damage. Confusion is also passed by Baton Pass, meaning you cannot BP pivot out of the status.


Chatter Abuses

Chatter benefits both offense and stall. Offensive pokemon can use the free turns to attack or safely set-up a sweep. Or, in some cases, such as Tail Glow Mega-Ray, sweep with Chatter itself. Stall can use the turns to lock down their opponent, recover, and whittle down their health. Balance can, of course, do both.

If a Pokemon can fit Chatter in its moveset, there is rarely any downsides to doing so short of the opportunity cost of using the moveslot for something else, since the 100% confusion effect is very powerful and is only stopped by niche abilities. Lum and Persim berries stop the confusion, but this allows the Pokemon to "break" the berries and inflict other nasty status freely, such as burns from Sacred Fire.

Chatter can be combined with moves such as Nuzzle, Glare, and Air Slash to lock an opponent down, making it even less likely they can ever move. This is especially true for some moves when combined with Serene Grace.

Chatter can be used with Mold Breaker to bypass any of its ability-based checks. It can also be used with Unnerve to bypass berries, though I have not seen that yet.

Chatter can be boosted with Gale Wings to give it +1 priority, allowing common users to confuse common Pranksters before they can act, as well as revenge KO/confuse most sweepers. It also allows slow, bulky Pokemon to safely confuse near anything before they have a chance to attack and threaten the Pokemon.

Chatter can also be paired with Sheer Force for a boost in damage at the cost of no longer confusing, but why would you do that?

Chatter Counters

Chatter is hard-stopped by Soundproof. However, most Soundproof users are Perish Trappers or Boomburst checkers and are frequently vulnerable to some coverage the Chatter users often carry. For example, Registeel is vulnerable to Earth Power and Blue Flare, Slowbro-Mega to nearly any special move, Giratina to Spacial Rend (notable since many Chatter users are Mega-Ray), and Audino, while bulky, isn't bulky enough to take hits well on both sides with even investment. Mold Breaker and Entrainment also bypass Soundproof completely.

The confusion aspect of Chatter is hard-stopped by Shield Dust and Own Tempo. Shield Dust isn't too bad of an ability, but it's most used for anti-Imposter shenanigans by teams with a Serene Grace user. Coverage, again, is also an issue. Own Tempo is used far less and the last legit use of it I saw outside of Chatter checking was a bulky sweeper using Swagger to either confuse the opponent or get boosts from Magic Bounce... back in Gen V. Also, again, Mold Breaker and Entrainment also bypass Soundproof completely.


Chatter Checks

Lum Berry and Persim Berry let the holder shrug off the confusion, letting them act. Problem is, unless you outspeed, which is hard to do against Mega-Rayquaza and near impossible against Gale Wings, these Pokemon cannot switch in safely. And even then, they can only do it once without Harvest or Recycle. Not to mention, Knock Off vulnerability. And even then, there's no guarantee you'll be able to do anything to the Chatter user. Kyu-W might be able to Boomburst Mega-Ray into oblivion, but Primal-Kyo will just scoff at it and Chatter again. As such, berry checks are unreliable checks.

Resistant types, like Registeel or Regirock. However, they can still get haxed down into oblivion by Confusion or plastered by coverage moves while confused. As such, they are unreliable checks.

Dual-Regen core, such as AV Regen Kyo-P and AV Regen Regirock, can switch back and forth while shrugging off damage like it's nothing and ignoring confusion damage. However, the only thing they can reliably do is PP stall Chatter, since confusion hax. Also, the Chatter abuser can also just set-up as they dry switch back and forth, as many carry either Substitute, Tail Glow, and/or Quiver Dance.

Tangled Feet can potentially allow a victim to outspeed and revenge KO a Chatter abuser. But, this ability serves almost no purpose beyond this function and, even then, the 50% chance of losing your turn is still present, making this strategy horrifically unreliable.


So what makes Chatter suspect worthy and not other confusion?

All other generally reliable forms of confusion, such as Swagger and Teeter Dance, are reflected by Magic Bounce, making them risky to use with anything except Mold Breaker, and Magic Coat, which even Mold Breaker cannot bypass. Additionally, they are stopped by Substitute and Taunt. Also, they do not directly inflict damage, thus a Pokemon cannot sweep with the move alone. And finally, Swagger is risky because Lum Berry is a common item and many Pokemon would appreciate the free attack boost.

Supersonic bypasses Substitute, but with 55% accuracy, it requires usage of No Guard, which makes it vulnerable to Magic Bounce. Also, No Guard itself is a risky move because the opponent will never miss your No Guard user either. Additionally, Supersonic is stopped by Soundproof and, since it does no direct damage, give the user a 100% safe switch-in.

Dynamic Punch mandates No Guard to be reliable, costing an ability slot right from the get go. While strong, it has very low PP of 8, the Confusion is blocked by Substitute, and Ghosts, including the very common Giratina, are flat-out immune to it. Also, No Guard itself is a risky move because the opponent will never miss your No Guard user either.


So my stance on this?

Here's where we get to the realm of opinion. And my opinion is Chatter is definitely worth considering to ban since matches devolve into RNG fests when it is applied, its checks are unreliable, its counters have very few functions outside of countering Chatter, and even then they don't always work, and near literally anything in the metagame can run Chatter effectively.

I mean heck, at least with Evasion, No Guard and Unaware could consistently ignore it, Mold Breaker or not, and you could steal the boosts to make the strategy backfire horribly or force them out with a perfectly accurate Whirlwind. And that still got the boot for turning matches into dice rolling contests rather than displays of skill and strategic cunning. Chatter cannot be reliably stopped by any means that I'm aware of, if just because Mold Breaker exists, the confusion bypasses Substitute, and confusion-curing berries only work once without specific moves or abilities.

So, yeah, I'd be in favor of banning Chatter. But again, this last section is just my opinion.
imo, what makes chatter better, is also due to being able to not only fit easily on teams, but its spammable, has no means of avoiding without soundproof, doesn't lock your ability, and deals respectable damage too and has more then enough pp to make it useful. on top of that flying type is considered one of the best offensive types of this gen, and bh is no exception of that rule. but the main problem, is how easy it is to prepare YOUR team for it. chatter isn't like assist, where you can innovate a counter to stop most versions, chatter is a move, and a move that can easily fit on any poke. causing the counter to the chatter user, to be as variable as every offensive poke in BH's counters. i can run soundproof tail glow thundy for example(and a bad one at that) with thunderbolt, and although it gets past common soundproofers and checks, i can run soundproof groudon, and EASILY stop it (another bad example, because groudon is actually a decent soundproofer, but you get my point)
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
We are suspecting Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, and Mega Rayquaza.

Unlike the previous votes, this time we are adding a ladder requirement. In order to be eligible to vote, you'll have to achieve an ELO rating of 1450. We reserve the right to lower the rating requirement according to the results of the first week of laddering.

The suspect test will last exactly 2 weeks from the time of this post. Once you qualify, take a screenshot of your /rank and post it in the voter identification thread.

Because there isn't a fresh ladder, you are required to start with a clean alt. You do not have identify yourself in the alt, but you are required to put GKR in it.

Be sure to abuse these three Pokemon as much as possible.

Note: This doesn't count towards TC badge.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
This thread is for discussing the suspects in BH, not for other comments. Your posts will be deleted if they do not involve said discussion.
 
Just wondering, why would we be suspecting the Hoenn Trio specifically? Is it just because they're a trio? Because it seems to be the only reason as far as I can tell.


MegaRay is no more broken than MegaDiancie, speaking in Atebility terms.

252 Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 38-45 (10.4 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 35-42 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO


252 Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 77-91 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO <-- Wtf calculator.
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 71-84 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO

4 SpA Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 92-108 (25.3 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 82-97 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 31.9% chance to 4HKO

Against RegenVest Regi, Diancie is barely worse offensively.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 289-342 (81.8 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 264-312 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Neither can OHKO MMY without carrying Sharp Beak/Pixie Plate, which requires giving up the safety of Safety Goggles (pun intended)

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 132-156 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Steel Type MMY (after Protean KS) is 3HKOed by both.

If you notice how similar these calculations are... I mean, it appears to me that saying one is ban-worthy and one isn't makes no sense. Diancie has significantly better defensive typing, which (arguably) makes up for the slightly lower hits.

I see no reason to ban MegaRay if we're not going to do anything about other, fairly equal, Atebility abusers. I'm supportive of a 720 clause, banning everything with a higher BST than Arceus, but banning specific Pokemon for no reason other than their unfortunate grouping with Pdon simply doesn't fly with me. I would strongly say that MMY, while not more centralizing than -ate, is more broken than MegaRay, simply due to its coverage and (nearly) unmatched wallbreaking potential, going to far as to straight up 1v1 most -ate abusers.

So I'm gonna have to be against a MegaRay ban.

Let's look at Pogre. It's signature set is obvious, but I'll post it since it isn't as obvious as -ate:

Kyogre-Primal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Quiver Dance
- Leech Seed
- King's Shield / Moonblast / Freeze-Dry

Now I'll agree this thing's a menace. However, straight away when you mentioned banning it, two potential replacements jumped straight into my head: Giratina-O and Lugia.

I can totally see myself running this:

Lugia @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Scald
- Quiver Dance
- Leech Seed

Or:

Giratina-Origin @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Quiver Dance
- Leech Seed
- King's Shield

Both would counter Chansey, same as Pogre. Lugia would be a defensive variant, while Gira-O would be a more offensive variant. Admittedly, neither carries the fear of Pogre, but I can easily see them being terrorizing after a Quiver Dance or two.


+3 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 214-253 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sorry Regi.

+3 252+ SpA Giratina-O Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 106-125 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 4.9% chance to 3HKO

Ok Gira-O isn't nearly as stronk.

+3 252+ SpA Lugia Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 87-103 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 4HKO

Lugia's even less impressive...

This seems like a legitimate reason to be considering a ban- The replacements, unlike MegaRay's, are significantly less powerful, which is what we'd like, while still maintaining the IDENTITY of the set-- the ability to 1v1 Chansey as an attacker, the ability to be a set up sweeper without the fear of being impostered.

I don't know where I currently stand on Pogre, though I can see why a ban is considered.



So anyway, I've saved the most broken for last. Pdon is just ridiculous. Tinted V-create/1KA pretty much 2KHOes everything that doesn't have Fur Coat.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 488-576 (134.4 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Still had Regi up from previous calcs, just thought I'd show it.

252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-308 (52 - 61.2%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

God. This thing.

And then it has the option to run Mold Breaker to break Fur Coa...

I don't need to do this for Pdon. We're suspecting it already...

Haha. Anyway, I agree with a Pdon ban due to all the reasons any BH player can give you if you go into the OM room and ask.


Why are we suspecting these Mons specifically and not MMY, or suspecting a 720 clause? Is it just because they're "the trio?"

What happened to the "Big 5?"

If this is an all-or-nothing vote, I'm going to have to strongly consider a NO BAN vote, depending how I make up my mind about Pogre.


tl;dr: Why are we only suspecting these 3? Why not a 720 clause? Suspecting these three because they're the "Hoenn Trio" doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Just wondering, why would we be suspecting the Hoenn Trio specifically? Is it just because they're a trio? Because it seems to be the only reason as far as I can tell.


MegaRay is no more broken than MegaDiancie, speaking in Atebility terms.

252 Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 38-45 (10.4 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 35-42 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO


252 Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 77-91 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO <-- Wtf calculator.
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 71-84 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO

4 SpA Sharp Beak Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 92-108 (25.3 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 82-97 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 31.9% chance to 4HKO

Against RegenVest Regi, Diancie is barely worse offensively.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 289-342 (81.8 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 264-312 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Neither can OHKO MMY without carrying Sharp Beak/Pixie Plate, which requires giving up the safety of Safety Goggles (pun intended)

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 132-156 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Steel Type MMY (after Protean KS) is 3HKOed by both.

If you notice how similar these calculations are... I mean, it appears to me that saying one is ban-worthy and one isn't makes no sense. Diancie has significantly better defensive typing, which (arguably) makes up for the slightly lower hits.

I see no reason to ban MegaRay if we're not going to do anything about other, fairly equal, Atebility abusers. I'm supportive of a 720 clause, banning everything with a higher BST than Arceus, but banning specific Pokemon for no reason other than their unfortunate grouping with Pdon simply doesn't fly with me. I would strongly say that MMY, while not more centralizing than -ate, is more broken than MegaRay, simply due to its coverage and (nearly) unmatched wallbreaking potential, going to far as to straight up 1v1 most -ate abusers.

So I'm gonna have to be against a MegaRay ban.

Let's look at Pogre. It's signature set is obvious, but I'll post it since it isn't as obvious as -ate:

Kyogre-Primal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Quiver Dance
- Leech Seed
- King's Shield / Moonblast / Freeze-Dry

Now I'll agree this thing's a menace. However, straight away when you mentioned banning it, two potential replacements jumped straight into my head: Giratina-O and Lugia.

I can totally see myself running this:

Lugia @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Scald
- Quiver Dance
- Leech Seed

Or:

Giratina-Origin @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Quiver Dance
- Leech Seed
- King's Shield

Both would counter Chansey, same as Pogre. Lugia would be a defensive variant, while Gira-O would be a more offensive variant. Admittedly, neither carries the fear of Pogre, but I can easily see them being terrorizing after a Quiver Dance or two.


+3 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 214-253 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sorry Regi.

+3 252+ SpA Giratina-O Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 106-125 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 4.9% chance to 3HKO

Ok Gira-O isn't nearly as stronk.

+3 252+ SpA Lugia Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 87-103 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 4HKO

Lugia's even less impressive...

This seems like a legitimate reason to be considering a ban- The replacements, unlike MegaRay's, are significantly less powerful, which is what we'd like, while still maintaining the IDENTITY of the set-- the ability to 1v1 Chansey as an attacker, the ability to be a set up sweeper without the fear of being impostered.

I don't know where I currently stand on Pogre, though I can see why a ban is considered.



So anyway, I've saved the most broken for last. Pdon is just ridiculous. Tinted V-create/1KA pretty much 2KHOes everything that doesn't have Fur Coat.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 488-576 (134.4 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Still had Regi up from previous calcs, just thought I'd show it.

252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-308 (52 - 61.2%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

God. This thing.

And then it has the option to run Mold Breaker to break Fur Coa...

I don't need to do this for Pdon. We're suspecting it already...

Haha. Anyway, I agree with a Pdon ban due to all the reasons any BH player can give you if you go into the OM room and ask.


Why are we suspecting these Mons specifically and not MMY, or suspecting a 720 clause? Is it just because they're "the trio?"

What happened to the "Big 5?"

If this is an all-or-nothing vote, I'm going to have to strongly consider a NO BAN vote, depending how I make up my mind about Pogre.


tl;dr: Why are we only suspecting these 3? Why not a 720 clause? Suspecting these three because they're the "Hoenn Trio" doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
they arent being suspected solely because they are a trio, its because each three has a aspect that is completely irrationally overkill.

i doubt groudon needs explination, so ill move onto kyogre, kyogre on paper looks pretty tame, but the problem with it, is the mix between sheer power, and INSANE special bulk, in order to be able to beat kyogre, you need either A) to run a scarf poke strong enough to ohko it, or B) run mega rayquaza, or C) run your own and beg.

why might i say this? because its most common set does THIS:

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 186-219 (51 - 60.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 172-203 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 262-310 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

kyogre basically ruins teams if they so as run even 1 wall on their team, as kyogre will likely be able to set up all over it, and as i said, scarfers and fakespeed ate are the 2 things that come close to stopping its rampage...did i mention most choose to run Kings shield nowadays? kyogre basically chooses its checks based on what it wants to run, all while having PLENTY of setup chances throughout the game. doesnt help that its typing is amazing both defensively and offensively.

for rayquaza, sporting twice as much bulk almost, a better ate (flying lets you beat mega gengar, and primal don unlike pixie) and also rays just downright stronger...i mean sure, diancie is almost as strong as ray, and showing calcs easily proves it, but rays flying type ate gives it that "oomph" that pixie fails to please. on top of that, its not limited to ate, it can run a "best of both worlds" set and go specially based gale wings, sporting a similar power to boomburst while having priority. or it can run contrary/protean and completely trash its usual counters. ray just has a tiny bit too much going for it. its obviously not as bad as groudon, but i still feel like it solidifies a spot alongside the two. maybe diancie will end up being called upon next once its #1 check is gone, who knows.
 
they arent being suspected solely because they are a trio, its because each three has a aspect that is completely irrationally overkill.

i doubt groudon needs explination, so ill move onto kyogre, kyogre on paper looks pretty tame, but the problem with it, is the mix between sheer power, and INSANE special bulk, in order to be able to beat kyogre, you need either A) to run a scarf poke strong enough to ohko it, or B) run mega rayquaza, or C) run your own and beg.

why might i say this? because its most common set does THIS:

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 186-219 (51 - 60.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 172-203 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 262-310 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

kyogre basically ruins teams if they so as run even 1 wall on their team, as kyogre will likely be able to set up all over it, and as i said, scarfers and fakespeed ate are the 2 things that come close to stopping its rampage...did i mention most choose to run Kings shield nowadays? kyogre basically chooses its checks based on what it wants to run, all while having PLENTY of setup chances throughout the game. doesnt help that its typing is amazing both defensively and offensively.

for rayquaza, sporting twice as much bulk almost, a better ate (flying lets you beat mega gengar, and primal don unlike pixie) and also rays just downright stronger...i mean sure, diancie is almost as strong as ray, and showing calcs easily proves it, but rays flying type ate gives it that "oomph" that pixie fails to please. on top of that, its not limited to ate, it can run a "best of both worlds" set and go specially based gale wings, sporting a similar power to boomburst while having priority. or it can run contrary/protean and completely trash its usual counters. ray just has a tiny bit too much going for it. its obviously not as bad as groudon, but i still feel like it solidifies a spot alongside the two. maybe diancie will end up being called upon next once its #1 check is gone, who knows.
1. We both agree Groudon is broke.

2. None of Kyogre's common sets run Water Spout. In fact, I haven't seen any water move used by it, other than Scald, in a VERY long time.

3. Diancie kills Gar, what are you talking about:
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 89-105 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4. Diancie getting walled by Pdon isn't going to be a problem if it's banned.

What you're saying about MegaRay isn't convincing me that it's totally broke.

At least, not any more than MMY, which can do the same things. Its other sets are also much more devastating if you get Impostered, whereas -ate is easily walled by a Registeel or similar (again, like MMY, whose Protean sets are very easy to make "imposter proof")


I'm not necessarily arguing that these mons don't deserve a ban. I'm arguing that the way we're going about it "Oh, let's ban the Hoenn Trio!" is wrong.

A 720 Clause makes much more sense imo, as then we're banning things based on their statistical abilities, rather than by an irrelevant in-game "signature."

It just feels wrong to me. I might be biased. I might be totally wrong. It's just my PoV.
 

wishes

no boys no boys
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
2. None of Kyogre's common sets run Water Spout. In fact, I haven't seen any water move used by it, other than Scald, in a VERY long time.
I mean,

| Water Spout 12.451% |

This is 7th most used move on Primal Kyogre. It's higher than Spiky Shield, which is 9.078% usage. Adrian runs it, I'm pretty sure. Usage doesn't say much, but it seems that it's used more than you're making it out to be.
 
I have to say that this trio is extremely unhealthy in the current metagame, particularly Mega Rayquaza. All Mega Rayquaza needs to do to get past its counters is use Spore, for most Registeel and Fur Coat Chansey, and Precipice Blades, for various Steel-types as well. Since solely blaming Mega Rayquaza is wrong, let's just generalise it as "ates". The -ates have warped the metagame so much that every single Pokemon in the metagame needs to, for the most part, and/or neglect their own Speed stat, account for momentum loss to the extremities, use King's Shield, and make unnecessary risks just to try and counter the -ates. While I do think the -ates' overcentralisation justified a ban back in pre-ORAS, Mega Rayquaza has crossed the line (you could also make a case for Mega Diancie).

Primal Kyogre is exactly like gen 5 Regigigas, except it's used in a metagame with frail Pokemon and limited offensive checks, courtesy of the -ates limiting offense, of course. I believe many underestimate Primal Kyogre solely because it's seen exclusively as a setup Pokemon; however, don't be fooled, for Kyogre can adapt to all kinds of situations. For example, instead of using Quiver Dance straight-away, you could use Water Spout or Scald to greatly damags potential switch-ins expecting Primal Kyogre to use Quiver Dance. Due to the -ates affecting the metagame significantly, I suppose it wouldn't be unwise to wait and see how Kyogre would turn out to be in a metagame without Mega Rayquaza. Mark my words, though, Primal Kyogre will be even better without Mega Rayquaza's presence, not that it's a particularly valid reason to ban Kyogre, though.

Primal Groudon is retarded and requires no further elaboration.

I'm not necessarily arguing that these mons deserve a ban. I'm arguing that the way we're going about it "Oh, let's ban the Hoenn Trio!" is wrong.

A 720 Clause makes much more sense imo, as then we're banning things based on their statistical abilities, rather than by an irrelevant in-game "signature."
I completely agree with you, however, I also think the "trio" is more centralising and unhealthy right now than other Pokemon, such as the Mega Mewtwo duo.
 
Last edited:

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Server Moderator
Community Leader
Just rewriting a quote I made responding to KS about a potential raymega ban alongside don and ogre:
You already proved how Don is strong but Ill just reiterate how it is the more powerful in its stabs, how it has the better defensive typing, how it has the more varied possibilities, how it's sets are not limited to only two main ones, how it is better with setup overall, and how it is immune to para and burn, none of these which Ray has. Ogre is a mildly different case in that the ph set is virtually invincible after a boost or two, but again it also is bulkier than Ray with a better type and has a more varied set list.

ray on the other hand is more or less defined in either gale or ate and almost anything else it outclassed by something else. This makes it easier to prepare for. Yes ate Ray can have coverage but it can't do everything at once; it can't beat other ates, proteans with goggles, soundproofs, fur coat, flash fire, regenvest, and not to mention the primals themselves and Ray is not much of a mon you can switch in either to absorb something like Don and ogre can. I already mentioned how his stabs are less effective (no doubt strong still) and it's really a waste to run adapt tinted or any similar ability on him (I've tried). To even justify using him above either of the mewtwos with protean you have to make use of his higher overall mixed offenses but that's limited by speed unless you use extreme speed which is limited by coverage especially if you use a shield of some kind, so it's better to use mewtwo anyway.
The only truly successful Ray sets that get around this problem are flat out choice sets and I've found them mostly to work purely because they act as lures for people expecting ate Ray (which can be found out if there is another ate on the team and it's pretty rare not to see one these days).

Ray also generally runs no recovery, and as mentioned it has a more exploitable weakness, is less bulky (so every hit counts), is vulnerable to more common statuses (I shut down a team of two or three rays with just willo and glare)

so it can't run stuff like fur coat or any other defensive ability like the other two can, it can't run ph because it's imposterproofing is limited as is its actual threatening power, it's stabs can be shut down by common types, one has an outright immunity and in steel, the same type can block both, and its sets aside from the main two are either scarf or work cause of the benefit of surprise and I don't count surprise as reasons enough for being banned unless it's proven that there are enough surprises it can viably do. As an example,That's why Don should be banned and shed should not even though theoretically it can still run ate Magic guard and sturdy and they all beat each other's counters.

Ofc Ray can maybe do all this if you have more than one.. But that's what I'm arguing in the first place, that with species clause there really is no reason to ban Ray (and mega mewtwos)
 
I have to say that this trio is extremely unhealthy in the current metagame, particularly Mega Rayquaza. All Mega Rayquaza needs to do to get past its counters is use Spore, for most Registeel and Fur Coat Chansey, and Precipice Blades, for various Steel-types as well. Since solely blaming Mega Rayquaza is wrong, let's just generalise it as "ates". The -ates have warped the metagame so much that every single Pokemon in the metagame needs to, for the most part, and/or neglect their own Speed stat, account for momentum loss to the extremities, use King's Shield, and make unnecessary risks just to try and counter the -ates. While I do think the -ates' overcentralisation justified a ban back in pre-ORAS, Mega Rayquaza has crossed the line (you could also make a case for Mega Diancie).

Primal Kyogre is exactly like gen 5 Regigigas, except it's used in a metagame with frail Pokemon and limited offensive checks, courtesy of the -ates limiting offense, of course. I believe many underestimate Primal Kyogre solely because it's seen exclusively as a setup Pokemon; however, don't be fooled, for Kyogre can adapt to all kinds of situations. For example, instead of using Quiver Dance straight-away, you could use Water Spout or Scald to greatly damags potential switch-ins expecting Primal Kyogre to use Quiver Dance. Due to the -ates affecting the metagame significantly, I suppose it wouldn't be unwise to wait and see how Kyogre would turn out to be in a metagame without Mega Rayquaza. Mark my words, though, Primal Kyogre will be even better without Mega Rayquaza's presence, not that it's a particularly valid reason to ban Kyogre, though.

Primal Groudon is retarded and requires no further elaboration.



I completely agree with you, however, I also think the "trio" is more centralising and unhealthy right now than other Pokemon, such as the Mega Mewtwo duo.

So you're saying while Ray isn't necessarily broken, it's unhealthy.

I can agree with that. The thing that I'm not following though, is how people are insisting that Ray is so much better than Diancie...

I'm starting to feel like we need 3 suspect tests, in succession:

1. Pogre/Pdon
2. -ate (specifically MegaRay/MegaDiancie)
3. Protean and/or Mega Mewtwo

I can say with certainty I'd vote for a ban on the first one, and probably on the second one too.

I'm thinking Protean might not be all that broken once I can devote another mon or two to countering it, rather than having to run answers to both Primals on every team.

I think we can all agree that Primal Groudon is just stupid.
 
Mega-Diancie will certainly deserve to be watched after this suspect test, I think. With more team slots freed to deal with it, and a possible resurgence of Kyu-B (who prevents it from switching in itself), it may or may not become a problem and it's really hard to tell with how infested the meta is with Hoenn. Nor is it easy to tell whether it's the Pokemon or ability at this point.

I don't know about an immediate suspect though since removing the Hoenn trio won't just insta-revert to X/Y meta. Things will need to settle since we still have a bunch of new Pokemon Mega-Camerupt for new suspect.
 
I think banning these is just going to hurt the metagame. All this will do is cause people to use the next pokemon in line that are next powerful. The most powerful pokemon have been used since the beginning of BH. Like I will be still being using the same sets but on different pokemon if these are banned. The sets will have slight modifications due to STAB but will be still be used in the same way as before. For example people with Aerialate on there Mega Rayquazas are going to end putting it on Salamence or another powerful flying type.. This would pretty make it a XY meta minus Mega Diancie, Salamence and other viable Megas in ORAS. It would only power down tatics commonly used on these pokemon that is it.
 
I think banning these is just going to hurt the metagame. All this will do is cause people to use the next pokemon in line that are next powerful. The most powerful pokemon have been used since the beginning of BH. Like I will be still being using the same sets but on different pokemon if these are banned. The sets will have slight modifications due to STAB but will be still be used in the same way as before. For example people with Aerialate on there Mega Rayquazas are going to end putting it on Salamence or another powerful flying type.. This would pretty make it a XY meta minus Mega Diancie, Salamence and other viable Megas in ORAS. It would only power down tatics commonly used on these pokemon that is it.
While I agree people will simply move on to the next most powerful thing, MegaMence has 35 less attack and 60 less special attack than Mega Rayquaza, and regular Rayquaza has 30 less in both attack and special attack, so they will be easier to wall. This would actually be healthier for the metagame, as while they would still be very powerful Pokemon in their own right, the reduced power allows for more Pokemon to emerge as checks and counters. Basically, while I agree with the fact that it will power down these tactics, I fail to see how that is hurtful to the metagame--imo it can only make it healthier.
 
I am not particularly certain the Weather Trio needs to be banned outright. In my opinion all three of them, in their base forms and their primal and mega forms, canon movesets and unrestricted ones, are beatable by a variety of methods. Is it difficult to do so? Sometimes, of course, but not often enough to warrant banning them. A lot of people in hackmons(both the original mod and this one) are "hulk smash!" kinds of players, which are pretty easy to plan for. There aren't only a select few Pokemon that the necessary types and stats to deal with the Weather Trio, as plenty of lesser-used Pokemon in Hackmons can do the job. Here are a couple battles from Pokemon Showdown that help illustrate the point http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243066158
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243067458
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243298988

Anyone who says Kyogre is not versatile can take a look at this replay. Keep in mind that the problem with this team wasn't coming up with roles that Kyogre could do effectively, but rather determining which of the different roles I would have to include because there's so damn many that it can do very well. To summarize, this team contains 6 different Kyogres with 6 completely different functions. And there were even more sets that I didn't get to use because I ran out of team slots.

Primal Kyogre completely has to go, it's just that broken.
 
I am not particularly certain the Weather Trio needs to be banned outright. In my opinion all three of them, in their base forms and their primal and mega forms, canon movesets and unrestricted ones, are beatable by a variety of methods. Is it difficult to do so? Sometimes, of course, but not often enough to warrant banning them. A lot of people in hackmons(both the original mod and this one) are "hulk smash!" kinds of players, which are pretty easy to plan for. There aren't only a select few Pokemon that the necessary types and stats to deal with the Weather Trio, as plenty of lesser-used Pokemon in Hackmons can do the job. Here are a couple battles from Pokemon Showdown that help illustrate the point http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243066158
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-243067458
Yeah no offense but these replays feature showcase nothing but lower ladder play and poor sets. I could go over the details, but Heat Crash, Zangoose, Mega Blastoise, Storm Throw, and Protect are just some of the outclassed moves/mons featured in these replays.
 
Likes: EV
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top