Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
So you're saying banning TA would enable Flying Types to be a good check. But what good would they be against a banded Sun-boosted VCreate?

At the best, it would force the meta to develop Flash Fire Flying Types.

Uncompetitiveness should be removed, not nerfed.
its practically impossible to run sun boosted v-create on a assist spam team. and i wasnt saying "banning tarrows will make flying types amazing checks to groudon" iwas saying ,it would nerf groudon, forcing it to either hit a flying type with v-create, or hit non flying types with v-create, rather then easily getting best of both worlds with adapt thousand arrows.

as ive pointed out before. this isn't "noncompetitive" in the normal sense. its not "evasion" or "Swagplay" which relys on hax. or its not "parental bond" which outclassed 100% of abilities out there. this is something that abuses the metas lack of ability to have more then 3 checks to every threat. assist is not NEARLY as broken when restricted to 1 coverage that has plenty of immunities and resistances. especially when the best user(due to its bulk) has two coverage moves that are both easily able to be immune to. by nerfing assist, we turn it "noncompetative" as in "a strat that will never work against any normal player". seriously, no point killing a dog once its declawed and tamed.

"But what good would they be against a banded Sun-boosted VCreate?" uhhm...nothing?...whats your point? its not like i said "birdspam counters groudon" which i never even remotely mentioned tbh. i said "banning arrows will nerf groudon" preventing it from easily having best of both worlds by simply spamming adaptability arrows. it means locking groudon into thousand arrows doesn't immediately spell "something DIES" where you can switch into a flying type and be able to at least outplay it somewhat. but this is like...an entire different ballgame so i don't see any purpose of mentioning it.

again, banning assist solves the huge picture of the problem. so i'm down for banning it, im just saying tarrows ban will help the problem too, while also doing some helpful things for the meta like nerfing mega ray(leviregi counter op until magma storm takes popularity over ground), protean(not much) groudon, assist, and whatnot. all of which we currently see as "very threatening"
 
Assist spam works absolutely terribly with other moves.
Only variant that was decent was outrage before fairies
Boomburst assist was a thing for a shortwhile in gen 6, but it also lacks the oomph, and in the current meta with soundproof around it can also be very dull and hard countered.
V-create is the original assist team of OU, but primordeal and flash fire steel stypes are a thing in BH, not to mention the massive amount of dragon and water types that resist fire to begin with.

If thousand arrows is gone, assist teams pretty much lose their power
The other move option are powerful and sound good but in practise there are way too many counters to them, thousand arrows is only move able to cut the cake with its extreme neutral coverage.

banning thousand arrows could potentially make more mons viable to use, but it is a good move still and its only really broken on groudon and maybe protean mmx.

So honestly I'd really prefer if assist + TA would be the thing like I analyzed in my earlier post, but TA banned as whole could have really intresting impact when you think about it.
 
I agree with suspecting TA, so we can stop theorymonning and actually observe how the meta reacts and shifts to the removal of such a broken move. I think it would be intetesing making team that lacks (and doesnt need to prepare for) thousand arrows, and it will also be one of the best ways of deciding thousand arrows' fate effectively.

What do you guys think of this?

EDIT: If this suspect thing does go down, then we can at least have a small time playing in a cancer-free meta.
 
Can we also ban chatter? It's a stupid move that requires no skill to use and stupidly specific things (like inner focus) to counter.
Soundproof > Inner Focus
This was discussed in another thread, and chatter is pretty annoying and lacks skill, but is not necessarily overpowered or to some extent over-centralizing, unlike thousand arrows.
 
Swagplay isn't overpowered and neither are evasion moves but we banned them both in OU and the latter in BH. If we're trying to make a healthy/fun metagame any hax related strategies should go die in holes.
that's my heated opinion anyway, relying on hax drives me up the wall.
 
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Swagplay isn't overpowered and neither are evasion moves but we banned them both in OU and the latter in BH. If we're trying to make a healthy/fun metagame any hax related strategies should go die in holes.
that's my heated opinion anyway, relying on hax drives me up the wall.
Swagplay and evasion is totally overpowered, they banned evasion in BH because the ability simple + minimize = gg. +4 evasion in one turn allowed for rediculously easy set up (especially since simple boosts other setup moves as well) and is only stopped by prankster haze or topsy turvy, or other gimkicky things. Imposter is a shakey check because they cant really hit the opponent because of evasion boosts, and they could make their moveset imposter-proof (like hoopa-unbound for example).
 
I like the idea of banning TA. I personally run a non-assist P-Don that has has it for coverage, and I could easily live with not being able to use it, it's simply the best option for a ground STAB move. While it doesn't seem like it at first glance, there isn't really any other move that really works on an assist team in BH. Other meta-games sure, but in BH if you want an over-powered move with priority you can just use -ate Extremespeed, or Gale Wings Dragon Ascent/Chatter/Oblivion Wing. The only reason Assist-TA is any good is because it hits almost everything in the game for good damage when used on P-Don, and nothing can be immune to it. If it was Assist-EQ it would be very easy to counter, as would Assist-V Create. I don't think Assist is really the problem, because it isn't OP on it's own, in fact in reality it severely limits what a team can do, TA just happened to allow an Assist team to actually work consistently.

I also wouldn't mind a species clause (or maybe even a limit to two Pokemon of the same species). It wouldn't even have to be limited by Pokedex numbers; it could just be no using the same form (for example you could still have all cosplay Pikachu teams, and you could still use multiple Deoxys forms) I feel like that would make the meta-game a lot more diverse, and encourage creativity in general.

I've only been playing this format for a few weeks, so I don't have that much experience, but those are my two cents
 
I think instead of banning TA just make a limit of 3 pDon to stop assist team, TA is a threat on other pokes, but not really a big one! I like to use mold breaker pdon in my team, so it's not expected and really not A threat with TA!
 
I think instead of banning TA just make a limit of 3 pDon to stop assist team, TA is a threat on other pokes, but not really a big one! I like to use mold breaker pdon in my team, so it's not expected and really not A threat with TA!
But the most dangerous assistdon team has only 3 pdons anyway lol. If a complex ban like that WERE to happen, i think it would be more along the lines of banning the use of assist on primal groudon altogether. There, done. If this takes place, we can say bai to assistdon trash, while still being able to have fun with thousand arrows and primal groudon. It just seems like the most logical solution to me.
 
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Pikachuun

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Okay so I decided to take a look at the usage stats for January and found this.

I believe that Assist should be banned, not Groudon-P or Thousand Arrows. Groudon-P can be controlled to an extent, but certainly not the extent that Assistspam effectively has. The same deal for Thousand Arrows, it's good because it has no immunities but simply lacks in power with only 90 BP and no other benefits in most scenarios. I'd like to point out that my team-usage data is coming from various points on the ladder, but moveset data is purely based on the highest point that the stats cover (1760+), due to the fact that assistspam teams can get to the top of the ladder exceptionally quickly, and very reliably (There's an RMT that had 33-0 when it was posted using assistspam). Now let's take a look at some stats, because hearing me rant and reading statistics is fun.

First, let's take a look at the Groudon-P usage for each bracket.
All of Ladder: 3 | Groudon-Primal | 26.36691% |
Okay, so Groudon-Primal is used on a quarter of all teams, and is trumped by Rayquaza-Mega and Shed (that order). Pretty standard, exactly what we'd expect from a powerhouse such as him, even though it seems a bit high. Let's keep going.
1500+: 2 | Groudon-Primal | 33.96361% |
So Groudon-Primal moved up a rank, moving past shed by a small margin (less than 1%). Clearly this thing is better than we thought. Let's go deeper.
1630+: 2 | Groudon-Primal | 50.48627% |
Same rank, but look at the difference in percents. Now it's used on a bit more than half of all teams. Rayquaza-Mega's usage at this time is
52.96090%. Yeah, this is kinda getting close. But it can't possibly be used this much on 1760+ teams right?
1760+: 1 | Groudon-Primal | 70.72991% |
Yup. Groudon-P is the most-used Pokemon on all top-rank BH teams, trumping M-Ray by a full 12% (Ray-M's is 58.31896%). Well, this thing's obviously powerful, but why? Surely there must be some correlation between this and assist for me to be typing this post, or else I'd look dumb! Well, let's take a look at its moveset data.

Within the 1760+ moveset data, we immediately see that Prankster is the most used ability, trumping even Tinted Lens, its most powerful nuking set, by around 8% usage (27.188% versus 15.344%). Tinted Lens is also run on Assistspam teams to get around Ground resists, just so you know. Mold Breaker is the 3rd most used, which is also run on Assistspam to get around Fur Coat abusers and Sturdinja. Coincidence? The 4th most used ability is Magic Bounce, which is rarer on Assistspam but is still run. So what does this mean? Let's find out. Its most used item is Choice Band, trumping the second-most used Choice Scarf by more than 30% (43.798% versus 12.174%). Okay, they're obviously running it for the power with STAB V-create, or maybe because they're boosting Thousand Arrows up more. The spreads? All Bulky Physical Sweepers; 14.433% run 248/252, and the second most used 252/252 has only 5% usage. There's also a 236/252 set (the 3rd-most used one) with 20 speed, most likely designed to speed creep opposing Assistspam. So it's quite obvious by this point I wrote up this giant wall for nothing, Choice Band is obviously for V-Create and Thousand Arrows, etc. But what if I told you that I didn't just write up this wall for keks? What if I told you that the next paragraph is where I prove that Assist is broken?

Let's take a look at moves now, to show how overcentralizing Assistspam is on high ladder. The most used move on Groudon-P on high ladder, in of itself, is Assist, with a whopping 48.329% usage. Thousand Arrows, the move that most likely deserves to be the most used outside of V-create, is less used than Assist by ~15% (34.295% usage). Then again, this is also run on some Assist-scum Groudon-P. Now here's where Assistspam proves itself. I refer you to the 3rd most used move, not V-create, but Dragon Tail. Yes, that's right, Dragon Tail. Why would you run Dragon Tail on an Adamant Groudon-P? Because it's immune to Assist calling it. The 4th-most used move is V-create. Only the 4th. And now, the true proof. The 5th-most used move? FOCUS PUNCH. Yes, your eyes do not decieve you, FOCUS PUNCH. This is only used less than V-create by 1 single % (23.063 compared to 24.620). I could go on to talk about the 6th and 7th-most used moves (Trick and Switcheroo), as well as the fact that Thief is even existent on there, but I think I got my point across with FOCUS PUNCH.

But just one more thing that will really put the nail in the assist isn't OP coffin, since Blissey appears to be a partner to Groudon-P in its assist spamming efforts: Blissey's 2 most used moves, Thousand Arrows (59.937%) and Nothing (38.397%). Need I say more? I'm pretty sure I don't. Plus, who else is using Assist anyway? Banning it would have no negative consequences since nobody else is running it really outside of gimmicks.

tl;dr: Ban Assist. At the very least, ban the combination of Assist + Groudon-P, since Assist + Garchomp can be dealt with due to Garchomp's lesser bulk and worse typing in this meta (and 10 less attack).
 

Uselesscrab

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Can't type out much because I'm on mobile.

I agree with the general sentiment you're expressing, but for those high-level stats you're relying on an incredibly small sample size. This is evidenced by the fact that "so many people" are using Blissey with only one move, even though other non-assist-called moves could be used. One or two teams could be accounting for those huge percentages.
 

verbatim

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Sorry for being away for so long, I intend to have a poll addressing this up in the next 24 hours. As of now I have seen these options proposed in the previous pages. If something is bolded, it is something that will most likely be in the poll. If it has a strikethrough, it will NOT be in the poll. if it has no markup, that means I am undecided and / or still deciding. If anyone would like to offer alternate solutions not present in this list, or make arguments for moving options to the poll or away from the poll, I would be happy to listen to them.
  • Complex Ban Groudon-Primal and Assist
  • Complex Ban Assist + Thousand Arrows
  • Ban Assist
  • Species Clause
  • Ban Groudon Primal
  • Nothing
Ramblings on the above

In deciding rules for the BH metagame, I am always worried about balancing openness of the game (i.e., how much you can use) and simplicity of the rules (ideally you should be able to describe a metagame in less than a paragraph of rules). Obviously those two forces are at work here, and of the two options that I bolded, each represents a different area. A flat Assist ban is more succinct and eliminates the problem completely, while also ruining a creative means of playing the game, whereas a complex ban on Assist + Thousand Arrows addresses the current problem more specifically, but adds another sentence to the essay that is the BH rulelist. Nothing fulfills both these qualities, by not making the rulelist of BH more verbose and by not restricting any creativity de facto. A vote for nothing is also indicative of the fact that one does not believe this issue of "assist spam" is worth changing the rules for. You should decide if you want to vote for nothing or something, then, in the event that you decide to vote for something, deliberate over which particular something you wish to vote for.
 
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While I'll be in favor of pretty much any option up there except Nothing, I do think species clause should be worth including. One of the major issues with Assist teams is threat stacking, aka in this case spamming Groudon-P. Species clause addresses that with minimal impact on the Assist play style and minimum collateral damage, mostly affecting double Chansey, double Shedinja, and double Mewtwo. It also doesn't add much verbosity either, and is easy to explain to newcomers since every other tier except Classic Hackmons and Anything Goes has species clause, AFAIK.

I'm also surprised "Ban Thousand Arrows" isn't on there, considering how many people mentioned and seem to support that one as well. That's not my proposal, however, so I'll let its proponents argue for its inclusion.


As an aside, more related to the philosophy discussed here, I should mention I feel bans do not necessarily reduce creativity. If something is dominant and over-centralizing, it demands preparation to handle it, which reduces the amount of Pokemon/ability/move/item slots you have to play with for other things. Removing over-centralizing factors frees players up to use those slots for other things rather than having using it for "mandatory check/counter for thing you'll almost always see".

A good BH example of such an issue was Parental Bond, which pretty much mandated a PH Giratina on your team to check reliably since a proper PB user could 2HKO literally the rest of the metagame. Removing PB meant players no longer absolutely had to use PH Giratina, freeing them up to try other stuff out.
 
Banning Assist is the only real option tbh, all the others are overly complex or unnecessarily restrictive. While we're at it, can we retest Ability Clause bc I think that one is pretty unnecessary at this point
 
I am all for banning assist although gen 5 had prankster nature power eq which may be worse although landorus t was the best user so yeah it pretty much makes me not want to play the meta, like at all. I honestly have quit then meta until we ban assist in general because assist chatter is possibly worse. Anyways as for ability clause, it doesn't feel like it did much, however like rumors said it stops things like monoimposter mons.​
 
Banning Assist alone is the most plausible decision.

Say, in the future, GF introduces a new move which hits all types for Normal Damage (No resists, that is). How long would it take for someone to start a Banded/Specd Assist team with that move?

In the long term view, we're better off banning Assist alone, seeing as that is the only thing central for so much uncompetitive advantage.
 
Do you really want to see stuff like mono-Poison Heal, mono-Imposter, mono-Contrary Groudon-P, and other teams like that again?
Ability Clause was put in place largely to combat PH spam teams, which aren't as much of a problem now with the ev limit and the recent offensive power creep (see: ray, diancie, groudon). Mono-imposter and Mono-contrary shouldn't be too much of an issue if your team is well built. Not to mention, the clause is overly complex, it restricts legitimate playstyles, and confusing for new players. The thing I'd be really worried about with Ability Clause gone would be Protean spam, but if that becomes too strong it can always be banned. I'm not saying it should just be straight up unbanned, I'm saying I think it should be at least tested.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Ability Clause was put in place largely to combat PH spam teams, which aren't as much of a problem now with the ev limit and the recent offensive power creep (see: ray, diancie, groudon). Mono-imposter and Mono-contrary shouldn't be too much of an issue if your team is well built. Not to mention, the clause is overly complex, it restricts legitimate playstyles, and confusing for new players. The thing I'd be really worried about with Ability Clause gone would be Protean spam, but if that becomes too strong it can always be banned. I'm not saying it should just be straight up unbanned, I'm saying I think it should be at least tested.
the problem with the ability clause withdrawl is that your team cant handle plenty of contrary/protean users. it wasn't JUST ph thats the problem, its that having a lot of the same strategy ends up being effective solely due to how incoherently impossible it is to stop. imagine 4 contrary users. shedinja? one has infest. imposter? ones sash without v-create, unaware? ones physical with knock off and taunt. its not the issue if your team is well built, your team can have the perfect contrary counter that STILL gets mauled because it cant be pressured by 4 or 5 of them. plus with the ev limit being less then it was before, it makes it harder to stop then it ever was.

"it restricts legitimate playstyles"? what legitimate playstyle resorts in you using 3 of the same ability? enless you intend to spam "broken" threats like protean, imposter(try stopping ph bliss/spoopy plate) or contrary to catch teams off guard, since running 6 counters to one ability is completely impossible to do, then there really isn't any legitimate strategy that this clause restricts. it would be like running 3 talonflame in ou. theres a reason there's a species clause there, and its no different for why we have ability clause here.

to be honest, i never found PH spam a problem until rumors used his, what i hated was contrary spam, because my team lacked 4 DIFFERENT counters to contrary all the time (my shedinja was rekt by infest, my ff aegis got rekt by offensive pressure/random coverage, and my chansey was rekt by imprison/imposterproofing) i ran each of those on the same team by the way, and i still lost to Playful's contrary team he made up. i mean, i guess retesting it isn't a problem, but i guarantee it wont change anything.
 
Also, don't forget the new team archetype that'd appear if ability clause was removed: six Gale Wings Chatter users!

...yeah... how about no.
 
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