Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

[Rumors]

Something occurred to me and it's a really interesting thought exercise. Think of whatever is proposed being banned (evasion and -ate right now, anything else that might be coming up) that you don't want to be banned. Imagine that, instead, it is currently banned and you are arguing for it to be unbanned. How would you argue that it would be beneficial to the meta overall to unban?

Just take a moment and think about it. And also consider what already exists that's relatively common that also already answers those problems it'd address.

Not using this as a point or counterpoint to anything since this is a theoretical exercise, but it's interesting to think about things in the light of "would it be good to add if it wasn't a thing already?"



Lcass4919 : It's... not really uncomparable. Ubers is OU without any bans whatsoever. Pure Hackmons is Balanced Hackmons without any bans whatsoever (and more than 510 EVs now too, but that's less relevant.) Honestly, you could call them Hackmons Ubers and Hackmons OU and it'd be accurate. The only main difference is we've had a preference for banning abilities rather than Pokemon.

Also, you're missing the point a bit. I understand the metagame is vast. But only in theory. I feel that things are too centralized and that, despite the multitude of options, the metagame right now has a very narrow focus on a few specific threats and countering said few specific threats. I mean, yes, you can run Adapt V-Create Choice Band Mega-Blaziken, but why should you when you can get comparable or better power combined with priority, flinching, and substitute negation?

Gen V BH was broad. While it was a little stall oriented due to spore-hazard-phazing being a thing, and a very powerful thing, and weather was pretty common, you could still run a hell of a lot of strategies and be successful without having to devote 1/6 to 1/2 of your team to checking specific Pokemon. Gen VI pre-510, or lets just call it X/Y since we're so close to the next games we're pretty much in early ORAS, wasn't as broad since a number of playstyles appeared, weather died, causing Sheddy to be able to run supportless and neuter so many offensive threats, and offense also got more focused into a few abilities + Gengar. Now options are even less because that narrow focused offense can plow through many mons who could previously check or counter them since they lost bulk. For example, my PH Gigas could withstand Fake + Speed from most -ates to smash them hard back or cripple them while outspeeding common Boomers to do the same. I can't do both now and my Gigas is now reliably forced out by most -ates whereas it used to force them out or cripple them.

And I'm not even commenting on the "well I could just use this set to check the Xerneas set you used for your calcs because reasons!" I mean, it's almost like this isn't a vast metagame and Xerneas can't run moves for those checks you mentioned instead. (And plus it misses the point I was making anyway.)


Also...

like, if we go by banning stuff based on "what makes a pokemon uber" then we might as well ban the entire concept of bh, because <sniping here because length>

First, my recommended solution is to complex ban three moves plus -ate, not -ates entirely. Second, the things that "qualify as uber" in BH are not the same as in standard. Didn't you just say the metas were uncomparable?

Anyway, our definitions of "uber" are stuff banned to Pure Hackmons. Pure Power is Uber and "godly". Wonder Guard is Uber and "godly". Parental Bond is Uber and "godly". Poison Heal is not. Magic Bounce is not. Contrary is not (as annoying as it is). Simple is not. There are a lot of things that'd be OP as hell in Ubers that aren't even a notable blip on our radars. Balanced Hackmons is, in theory, balanced by pitting stupidly powerful stuff against equally stupidly powerful stuff. The only things we get rid of is the stuff that still manages to prove to be overpowered, over-centralizing, or unhealthy in comparison.

Also, yes, it is slippery-slope. Getting freaked out that some things would get out of control and would need to be banned because something else would get banned is slippery-slope. And it's not too far off from the sort of fear mongering that rose up when Mold Breaker was fixed last gen. All those Shell Smashing Spore-spamming Unaware Nuking Mold Breakers everywhere, right?


Also also...

why isnt shedinja banned because it can ko every offensive pokemon with endeavoir, ice shard, or go smashpass, or it can pivot out or it can pain split to avoid rocky helmit, or run sash to avoid moldy pursuit etc etc or it can even run prankster dbond and just ko a pokemon on your team flat out (bad example i know) but do you at least somewhat get my trail of thought?

One thing at a time (and this applies to whatever else someone might say as to "well why isn't this banned yet then?". I was actually planning to take on Shedinja earlier, but I was busy. And then 510 hit before I was ready and I decided to sit back and let things evolve to see if it still needed to be tackled. -ates stuck out to me more after 510, so I copied down the formatting I was using for that post and focused on this. But unless something changes, I'll likely get to it sooner or later.



Meanwhile...

We only ban what is blatantly uncompetitive, and sometimes not even that.

This. Isn't. True. At. All.

Unless you can explain to me how all of those are purely luck-based inducing bans and have nothing to do with being too powerful offensively or defensively.

 

[xJownage]

You still are ignoring the point and claiming it is a logical fallacy and then prove both of my points in the beginning of your post (for evasion).

Without -ate, stall is nearly unviable. Shell smash judgement? Maybe some geomancy mon with an SE judgement? Then again, it would mandate chansey on literally every team, because anybody can run non-imposterproof sweepers in that metagame. Belly drum mold breaker anything that is fast. Meanwhile, there are many ways to beat -ate spam, as it has already been pointed out.

How about we look at what the metagame become as a besides, this will happen, rather than a main reason for it. If you think -ate is broken as a whole you are probably wrong, but in the same way stall teams are restricted into running an unaware in ou, meaning they almost have to run swagsire, is it really that hard to slap soundproof megaggron on your team? BH is a free spirit metagame, and having one poke with a certain ability you need is nothing new.


Lets say we are arguing for unbanning evasion.

........lol

 

[Pikachuun]

This. Isn't. True. At. All.

Unless you can explain to me how all of those are purely luck-based inducing bans and have nothing to do with being too powerful offensively or defensively.

They aren't uncompetitive from a luck-based spectrum, but more from a different spectrum. Pure Power and Huge Power cause RIDICULOUS amounts of damage output, and essentially cause stall to cease to exist. The trapping abilities are uncompetitive because you can slap it on a bulky mon like M-Aggron, come in on something that can't kill you, then trap and kill them. Or a fast mon like M-Aero, Encore them into an unfavorable move, and trap and kill them. Parental Bond is uncompetitive for the same reason the powers are uncompetitive; can anything live Super Fang + Night Shade/Seismic Toss outside of Ghost types? It also can break subs then deal damage, and effectively functions like a lesser Huge Power + Serene Grace combination for other attacking moves. Wonder Guard is uncompetitive because 2 of those = You cannot defeat the opponent without Coverage spam or Mold Breaker or status, but in the latter case they can just Aromatherapy that away, or use -ate to take out your Mold Breaker unless you use a different Mold Breaker; but why skimp out on MGar or MMootoo? They could even Gastro Acid your Mold Breaker if they want.

Are these luck-based? No. Are they uncompetitive regardless? Yes.

 

[Rumors]

xJownage You're pretty much having the same fears a lot of people had in Gen V when Mold Breaker was fixed back then. We didn't have -ates to counter those Moldy Shellsmashers and Q. Dancers (no Geomancy, but Geomancy is bad anyway and only slightly less so if you have Recycle). There were dozens of screams of doom and gloom about stall being dead and Mold Breaker sweepers running over the tier and pwning everything left and right because oh god there's no way to stop them!

...except that never happened. The meta barely changed then and I doubt mold breaker will come in and kill everything this time. I mean, unlike -ates, moldy sweepers still have difficulty bypassing Prankster Topsyshot + Destiny Bond and, even if they do, they need to spend time setting up, which is a lot more fair than being able to 2HKO a very large portion of the tier at +2 priority without ever having to set-up.

And if this is a free spirit meta, then why should anyone be forced to run a specific set? Nobody has been forced to use a particular mon + ability combo to be successful, so why should that even begin to be a thing now? Besides, as I illustrated, your specific example, Soundproof M-Aggron isn't reliable, because it takes a ton of damage from stuff like Earth Power. God help you if the opposing -ate your Soundproof Aggron is supposed to counter is running Blue Flare (Fire moves are not uncommon on -ates, especially Xern.)

Besides, again, arguing something will become broken because of a ban doesn't make the proposed thing any less broken.

Also, I'm not arguing in favor for evasion. Kill that crap for reasons that have been iterated and re-iterated by others.


Pikachuun You're kind of saying what I'm saying. I mean, yes, broken things are uncompetitive by the nature of being broken, but those weren't banned for merely being uncompetitive (maybe Tag/Arena was, but the rest for certain weren't.) For example, if you go back and read the Parental Bond discussion, it was banned because it was brokenly powerful since stuff like Weedle could reliably 2HKO everything but Poison Heal Giratina. (Did anyone even find something else that could reliably survive the Sacred Shadefang combo?) I don't think uncompetitiveness was ever mentioned. Likewise, early X/Y when HP/PP were unbanned because someone thought Fur Coat would keep it in check and they were rebanned because they were too powerful and overcentralizing, forcing everyone to run Fur Coat, Imposter, or Sheddy, often multiples of each or all three just to handle the speedster Huge Power Slakings and Xtwos.

Either way, my point is that we've banned things for reasons other than just being "blatantly uncompetitive".

 

[Lcass4919]

It's... not really uncomparable. Ubers is OU without any bans whatsoever. Pure Hackmons is Balanced Hackmons without any bans whatsoever (and more than 510 EVs now too, but that's less relevant.) Honestly, you could call them Hackmons Ubers and Hackmons OU and it'd be accurate. The only main difference is we've had a preference for banning abilities rather than Pokemon.

Also, you're missing the point a bit. I understand the metagame is vast. But only in theory. I feel that things are too centralized and that, despite the multitude of options, the metagame right now has a very narrow focus on a few specific threats and countering said few specific threats. I mean, yes, you can run Adapt V-Create Choice Band Mega-Blaziken, but why should you when you can get comparable or better power combined with priority, flinching, and substitute negation?

Gen V BH was broad. While it was a little stall oriented due to spore-hazard-phazing being a thing, and a very powerful thing, and weather was pretty common, you could still run a hell of a lot of strategies and be successful without having to devote 1/6 to 1/2 of your team to checking specific Pokemon. Gen VI pre-510, or lets just call it X/Y since we're so close to the next games we're pretty much in early ORAS, wasn't as broad since a number of playstyles appeared, weather died, causing Sheddy to be able to run supportless and neuter so many offensive threats, and offense also got more focused into a few abilities + Gengar. Now options are even less because that narrow focused offense can plow through many mons who could previously check or counter them since they lost bulk. For example, my PH Gigas could withstand Fake + Speed from most -ates to smash them hard back or cripple them while outspeeding common Boomers to do the same. I can't do both now and my Gigas is now reliably forced out by most -ates whereas it used to force them out or cripple them.

And I'm not even commenting on the "well I could just use this set to check the Xerneas set you used for your calcs because reasons!" I mean, it's almost like this isn't a vast metagame and Xerneas can't run moves for those checks you mentioned instead. (And plus it misses the point I was making anyway.)

it is very uncomparable. bh isn't about what pokemon are broken, its about what abilities with coverage makes it broken. im not talking about "oh adapt v create blaze is an option" im saying "leech seed on contrary set checks its would be counters." and "oh, but now chansey can beat me with a bit of luck, but turning it into a subseeder helps mitigate that, or maybe i can run imprision since i have flash fire aegislash on me to wall it if imprision backfires" ubers doesnt have that variation. they cant say "oh my kyogre is walled by palkia, but if i run draco meteor i easily can get around that" or "god damn it my mega kangaschan is walled by giratina, but by using swords dance i can easily set up on it" we can say that, get what i mean by "vast" now?

on the actual topic at hand, ilates arent nearly as broken as you make them out to be, most players have easily adapted to the power ilates bring to the table. the problem with banning stuff simply because they are overpowered in the meta (mind you they arent BROKEN things can and DO wall them) is that thats not what this meta does. in that case shedinja and chansey would've both gotten the boot along with every powerful mega there is. and protean too in that case.

to be honest, to solve this whole thing, why not just ban boomburst and techno blast on ilates while also putting ilates togeather in the species clause? it solves the problem at hand, and saves our premier revenge killers so setup sweeping doesn't turn into a fuckfest while nerfing ilates in a very healthy mannor for this metagame.

 

[Fossil_Maniac_27]

It's a thread dedicated to reasoning bans from a very anti-ban community. Large discussion posts are to be expected and appreiated. Id rather read a wall of text from Rumors or Chuun than read a sentence from poonslayer69 saying "lul aril8 iz bork"

The truth

lul aril8 iz bork.

In all seriousness though, would grouping all the -ate abilities as one under ability clause solve the problem many have brought up of -ates being centralizing. Sure, there are ways to beat -ates. I used to kill them off with sturdninja, but now they run infestation, rocky helmet, and sometimes whirlpool. I for one don't want -ates outright banned, but I also think they are a little too powerful right now.

 

[DrakJay]

I feel that ates shouldn't be banned, but limited.

On evasion, I think it should go.

 

[Lcass4919]

That may be true. But at least put a TL;DR for those who don't want to read wall after wall after wall.

but thats like saying "dude, i know you're convicted of murder, but can you please speed it up, i have a date i need to go too" in court.

edit: i should also point out that i purposely exadurated my point for my shitty humor, but you get my point; tldr's are too breif to obtain ANY worthy opinion of justification of anything that makes a huge difference in a metagame. its just more respectful to get the 100% of both sides before you scream "ITS BROKENZ! BAN BECUZ NO GUUD ARGOMENTZ". especially when both sides give very solid reasons.

 

[Pikachuun]

So here's what I would like to happen:

Evasion: Cancer. How does this benefit the metagame in any way, by forcing me to run Heart Swap/Topsy-Turvy/etc. on everything? Ban it twice for good measure.

-ates: In my honest opinion, -ate spam is easy to pull off since there are conveniently 3 -ate abilities. What I think we should do in regards to this is simply treat all the -ate abilities as one super-ability, and limit said super-ability to 2/team. It's complex, but I think it will make -ate spam not exist while still giving Hyper-Offense a chance, as Hyper-Offense depends on -ate (and Protean) to survive not being walled by everything.

 

[AWailOfATail]

That may be true. But at least put a TL;DR for those who don't want to read wall after wall after wall.

note taken

I'll put the tl;dr at the beginning since you'll read this first:
the -ates are basically another Imposter
I'll explain more at the end, but that's what this is about.

BH is basically Rock-Paper-Scissors right now with the -ates, Imposter, and Imposter-proof Mold Breaker sweepers (which isn't hard to do). I say Mold Breaker because Contrary is walled by Unaware and physical attackers need more setup than usual to get through Fur Coat. So let's stick with those three.

How do the Mold Breaker sweepers beat Imposters?
Because Imposters can't do anything. If it's not technically Imposter-proof but still has something on the team that walls it (like something with resists), Imposter will still usually lose unless the wall is taken down. But in the case of Megagar, Imposter will lose unless it has a Spooky Plate. There are others like this, though, so it can't always win. Also, if the Imposter doesn't get a free switch-in, the Mold Breaker will end up with extra damage given or get a Shell Smash off. This has always been the case, but even more so now, because most sweepers don't run any bulk for the Imposter to copy. Some sweepers that aren't Imposter-proof include Belly Drum E-Speeders and basically anything without Judgment.

How do the Imposters beat -ates?
Most -ates are vulnerable to Imposter. Unless they are carrying some weird set (aka Steel Judgement on Pixixern), the Imposter will usually win. There is also the case of Explosion, but the -ate is still eliminated. The downside of that is that the -ates aren't being used to their full potential. Instead of running coverage, they're running a move dedicated to taking out Imposters. So, the average -ate will lose to Imposter. Remember, this isn't always the case, as there are so many options in BH, but it's safe to assume that this is usually the case.

How do the -ates beat Mold Breaker sweepers?
They have priority. With the lack of bulk on sweepers thanks to the 510 EV limit, they are frailer than before and more likely to fall victim to strong priority. King's Shield is still an option, but one of the most common sweepers, Gengar-Mega, still loses to -ates:

252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Yveltal Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 271-319 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What about King's Shield? Well, 1k waves/arrows is very common in order to not make contact and will KO:
252+ Atk Yveltal Thousand Waves vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Xerneas is less of a check, as Gengar-Mega resists Fairy and E-Speed will only do 51.7% to 60.9% before a Shell Smash. But you get the idea, priority beats most Mold Breakers. If they have priority, then Imposters can usually beat them.

So what's this all about? Right now, BH is basically a very thin tightrope. Doing one thing could throw the whole thing out of balance. However, I think it would be safe to say that grouping all of the -ates under one ability for the purposes of the Ability Clause is one of the best possible routes we can take.

I know what you're thinking. "Where's the part about how the -ates are like Imposter?" Well, they happen to be one of the things controlling the meta. They threaten a lot of things but they're also weak to other things too (like Fur Coat/RegenVest), just like Imposter. The problem we have right now is that you can have six different -ates on any one team, as opposed to two Imposters. This will likely break through many walls that would normally beat just a single -ate. And yes I know about Shedinja but there are ways around that, as was said:

I used to kill them off with sturdninja, but now they run infestation, rocky helmet, and sometimes whirlpool.

There are ways around everything in BH, and there are ways to beat full-out -ate teams. But these teams will almost always lose to other powerhouses right now, such as set-up sweepers. It's just a vicious circle with all the -ates running around right now. I'm completely in favor of grouping the -ates under one ability for the Ability Clause.

What are my opinions on other stuff? Keep everything, really, the Mega Mewtwos are strong but tolerable.
Evasion? It's a tactic, I'm not a fan of it, I'll make a post about that later.

Also, while I was typing this, a BH tour started, so I decided to watch the semifinals and finals to see what people were using. Here's what I found:
7 -ates (2 KyuBs, Yvel, 2 Xern, 2 Rayquazas)
2 Mold Breakers (Megagar)
2 Protean (MMY)
2 Sturdy (Shedinja)
2 Prankster (Arceus, Aegislash)
2 Contrary (Ho-Oh, MMY)
1 Flash Fire (Aegislash)
1 Magic Bounce (Mega Venusaur)
1 Soundproof Mega (Aggron)
1 Regenerator (Darmanitan-Zen)
1 Magic Guard (Lugia)
1 Imposter (Chansey)
1 Sand Stream (Groudon)
Out of these 24 Pokemon that the semifinalists used, 29% were -ates. I realize that this only represents a fraction of the BH community, but still. (petition to bring back bh usage stats y/y) Interpret these however you want.

tl;dr:
-ates are necessary to keep BH in check but too many of them just ruin the meta

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Grouping the ates together makes sense because the whole point of the ability clause is to encourage diversity and ensure people don't just make a whole team based on one top ability like imposter. Simply changing the typing of your ate is basically legally circumventing the clause. Also i think that should be done before any other limitations/bans on ates.

 

[EV]

I feel that ates shouldn't be banned, but limited.

On evasion, I think it should go.

Can you please elaborate? Otherwise this message means next to nothing when it comes time to a decision.

Why shouldn't the ates be banned, but limited? Why should Evasion go?

 

[Fossil_Maniac_27]

Wall of Text

The reason -ates should be limited, not banned, in my opinion is the fact that -ate abilities aren't the problem, it's the fact that there are entire teams of 6 -ate pokes going around wrecking stuff because once you kill one, the next one comes out and kills off your would-be counter/check. By using teams of entirely -ates, eventually they can break through their checks and counters and sweep teams. I never had any trouble facing a team with 1 or 2 -ates on it, but it is hard, albeit not impossible, to break through teams of entirely -ates. Quickly made -ate teams have achieved very large success (just ask Rumors , he made an entire -ate team to test it). In fact, for a while, one of the top 5 teams on the ladder was one that just had 6 -ates on it. I beat it once, but got matched up again and was promptly beat (albeit partially due to my moves being slightly more predictable.
Also, what exactly do we gain by keeping evasion? There are ways to beat it easily (topsy-turvy, phazing, haze, heart swap or parting shot if MB), but well made evasion pass teams can potentially cause their opponent to just miss everything. A Scrappy/ -ate shedinja could sweep entire teams if it got passed evasion boosts as it could activate it's focus sash if it ever got hit, and then recycle it back. Heck, a MB shedinja could potentially kill off everything, as it couldn't even be phazed except by parting shot. In fact, almost anything could sweep a team with max evasion. Honestly though, evasion is fairly easily beat if you have something that can beat it. I used to just let them set up, prankster heart swap them at +6, and watch them forfeit, but that team is no longer one I use often, as it proved to be less than stellar against anything on the upper ladder. I don't think evasion is unbeatable, but it can lead to luck based match ups and almost certain victories being turned into defeats. I just don't see any reason to keep it around, as very few serious teams run it anyways.

Hide

End Rant.

 

[Lcass4919]

going to delete all this to save some room in chat lel

this is actually very informative, however i do see a few problems with your trail of thought, so i felt like it was nessisary to attack my own "con ban" brethren.

first and foremost, this meta is not "rock paper scissor" in any way. at first i found the relation to be pretty clever. and in theory it even makes a lot of sense. then something you said caught my eye.. "BH is basically Rock-Paper-Scissors right now with the -ates, Imposter, and Imposter-proof Mold Breaker sweepers " now, given i haven't fully returned into the metagame, but i have returned somewhat, got from rank 50 to 5 in 6 hours worth of laddering, got 2 undefeated alts with over 20-0 games. and needless to say i didn't see any mold breaker sweepers barring one or two out of pros and rooks alike. heck...i barely even saw NORMAL setup sweepers, and remember i run stall, so they have MANY opportunities to setup. and on my stall team i run a shedinja so trust me, i make sure to firmly check where that mold breaker is hiding. am i missing something? the problem with setup sweepers in this current metagame is that its TOO offensive. no pokemon currently has the bulk to pull off a shell smash or a shift gear against offensive pokemon and the ones that do are phers(my stall teams bane of existance) or minimize sweepers since they can get around the normal setup sweeper problems. and this is NOT ilates fault. its the power creep fault due to the ev restriction. (and lets not bring that argument into here).

my next point is about imposters relation to ilate. now this one is going to take a bit of humoring my opinion. but hear me out. you kind of miss the HUGE relation between imposter and ilate. and that is their main role. and just for kicks, lets throw shedinja in with them, so he doesnt feel left out. all three of them are revenge killers. yeah. thats it. all three are revenge killers...that have more utility then merely a "Revenge killer" ilate is a wallbreaker, chansey is literally a swiss army knife. and shedinja is a pivot. now whats the problem with defining these three as revenge killers? well, in bh terms. they are the ONLY ones. and needless to say, 2 of them are pretty easy to get around. but the last one, is actually very prominent, prominent to the point that if you have 3 or more of them they can rip through your team easier then butter, obviously because no team can handle 3+ revenge killing wallbreakers without resorting to MASSIVE skill/knowledge of this metagame.

solutions: 1)now if we take away that "third one(ilate)" we will easily solve this problem. or heck, we can go one step ahead and complex ban it to 1 per team if people are THAT scared of ilate. the main problem here is that we are considering banning the ONE thing keeping hyper setup offense at check right now. and to be honest, if something is keeping this meta balanced we should go the complex ban route, or the "do not ban" route, just like how verbatim did with chansey.

2) OR we can ban boomburst and techno blast mixed with fakeout with espeed (not seperated might i add) which will again, solve the BIG problem with ilates(stripping them of their "revenge killing wallbreaker" status). but i still stand firm that ilates should fall into one category.

 

[AWailOfATail]

dont worry I read all of it

Yeah, I had something different about the RPS part in an earlier draft. Think it went like "BH right now is centered around the -ates because they create a balanced Rock Paper Scissors game between Imposter and other offensive threats". There's a bunch of other factors that screw up that analogy.

Also I totally fucking forgot about Shedinja when writing that, but your third paragraph is perfect imo, so I totally understand what I said was incorrect and I give you major props for managing to put that entire third paragraph into words (I just didn't know how). On the mold breaker side of things, Megagar is honestly one of the top threats outside of -ates, as there are so few viable mons that can handle it.

I agree with both your solutions, btw, except maybe a complex ban of [E Speed] and [Boomburst/Techno Blast]. I don't think fake out is too much of a problem, as it can't be spammed as easily as E Speed but can still provide priority for -ates for utility against HO. This could just be a bad idea though but I'm not too sure rn

And I talked to verb on PS today and asked him to ask Antar if there could be a script dedicated to just BH for usage stats, as it would really help this discussion. He took it off because of the way the Megas screwed with the data but I figured there's a script dedicated to it, it won't interfere with the other tiers. (Verb said he was busy and to remind him later so I'll get around to that)

 

[Lcass4919]

Yeah, I had something different about the RPS part in an earlier draft. Think it went like "BH right now is centered around the -ates because they create a balanced Rock Paper Scissors game between Imposter and other offensive threats". There's a bunch of other factors that screw up that analogy.

Also I totally fucking forgot about Shedinja when writing that, but your third paragraph is perfect imo, so I totally understand what I said was incorrect and I give you major props for managing to put that entire third paragraph into words (I just didn't know how). On the mold breaker side of things, Megagar is honestly one of the top threats outside of -ates, as there are so few viable mons that can handle it.

I agree with both your solutions, btw, except maybe a complex ban of [E Speed] and [Boomburst/Techno Blast]. I don't think fake out is too much of a problem, as it can't be spammed as easily as E Speed but can still provide priority for -ates for utility against HO. This could just be a bad idea though but I'm not too sure rn

And I talked to verb on PS today and asked him to ask Antar if there could be a script dedicated to just BH for usage stats, as it would really help this discussion. He took it off because of the way the Megas screwed with the data but I figured there's a script dedicated to it, it won't interfere with the other tiers. (Verb said he was busy and to remind him later so I'll get around to that)

yeah i considered only putting espeed, but then i thought about how fake out would basically give the wallbreaker a "pseudo revenge kill" and a "free hit" button to help break walls. but realizing there is quick attack that boomburst users can use with it, i figured fakeout espeed was a good tradeoff.

 

[Rumors]

Bleh, being sick sucks, so I'm not going to make a big post here.

To reiterate, my most preferred solution is complex -ates + boom/extreme/fake. And I suppose Techno too, since I hadn't really thought of it, although I'm not sure that's as big a deal since it has lower power, lower PP, and doesn't ignore subs compared to Boomburst. In fact, -ate plateless Judgement might still be the superior option because of PP. (Actually, that'd be a funny check to Plate-bearing Imposters. Fridge Judgment Arceus vs Spooky Plate Imposter Chansey, go!). I only offering outright banning -ates as an option should we be abhorrently opposed to complex bans. But, fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm not worried about them getting banned outright. Besides, they have some neat gimmicks outside of Boomspeed that are sorely underutilized since they take actual effort and I'd hate to see those go. I'm rather partial to -ate Facade, even if I don't run it often.

That said, the main arguement for keeping -ates seems to be their revenge killing capabilities, particularly against moldy sweepers. I'd be fine with this, but those same revenge-killing capabilities are also restricting the meta a bit by locking out frailer stuff. Killerchops 2.0, aka Aerodactyl-M, is rarely seen because it just gets flat out KOed by most speeding. And there's stuff we can't really try, such as Absol-M and Manectric-M, who both have good power and speed but not so much durability, who could attempt to use their speed and power to try to kill stuff before something crunches their fragile bones. But they can't since they'll just get speeded down before they can move. (That Mane set I posted on the main thread recently? A serious pain in the ass to test because I kept having to switch away from -ate Fakespeed.) The only real exceptions to this are the Mewtwos, who are just that damn fast and powerful that you can't not use them, and Gengar, likely because it's Imposter immune.

-ate Extreme Speed also bypasses Prankster D-Bond, which is usually a last ditch move to stop a sweeper. Some might see that as a positive, but considering the defending player often loses a valuable mon too, therefore making it a risky strategy, I call it a negative.

On the other hand, Moldy sweepers aren't that hard to kill. They're dangerous, yes, but by running Moldy, they're missing out on other offensive abilities like Adaptability, Tough Claws, Protean, or what have you. They also suffer from 4 MSS since they tend to want a set-up move, STAB, coverage, something to help get that set-up (Spore, Sub, King's Shield, etc.), and something to deal with all of their many other checks (and they often want multiples of all those categories, except maybe STAB). They're also usually not that bulky (Gengar appears to be the most common, followed by Mewtwo-both and Lati@s-M in my experience). Exact checks tend to vary set to set (most Gengar dislike Sucker Punch, but some run Moonblast and/or other moves to deal with stuff like Yveltal who'd try it), although most Pranksters seem to invariably shut them down, whether it be priority status or reversing their buffs.

We got through moldy sweepers just fine before. Admittedly there's been some power creep since, but we've also gotten new toys to deal with them, like Topsy Shot, that weren't available prior either.


...sigh, why do these single paragraphs keep exploding into multiples of them? Do I have the forum equivalent to Skill Link?

 

[hexenjaeger]

As a side note if we're pushing for a complex -ate ban we might consider banning multiple of renamed abilities (i.e. mold breaker and clones) under that clause's rules for the sake of consistency.

 

[Lcass4919]

That said, the main arguement for keeping -ates seems to be their revenge killing capabilities, particularly against moldy sweepers. I'd be fine with this, but those same revenge-killing capabilities are also restricting the meta a bit by locking out frailer stuff. Killerchops 2.0, aka Aerodactyl-M, is rarely seen because it just gets flat out KOed by most speeding. And there's stuff we can't really try, such as Absol-M and Manectric-M, who both have good power and speed but not so much durability, who could attempt to use their speed and power to try to kill stuff before something crunches their fragile bones. But they can't since they'll just get speeded down before they can move. (That Mane set I posted on the main thread recently? A serious pain in the ass to test because I kept having to switch away from -ate Fakespeed.) The only real exceptions to this are the Mewtwos, who are just that damn fast and powerful that you can't not use them, and Gengar, likely because it's Imposter immune.

seeing how you are sick, ill try to make my sentence as "respond forgiving as possible" for you. ill just bring up a few points while also awnsering some of my own problems in the process...

first and foremost, this arguement above is basically a "it restricts using other pokemon" which first off, is wrong, and second, isnt a valid arguement when it comes to banning something. now, i understand the gist of what you are saying but theres some problems i want to outline. magic guard aero is bad for other reasons then JUST illate. mainly, theres too many things that wall it now to justify using it. giratina hardwalls it, aggron works, sheddy does too, and chansey makes it a unfavorable coinflip. the problem with aero isnt ilate, it is-just like it was before the ev limit-the lack of purpose. why use something that can end up destroying half your team while being walled by MANY common pokemon in the teir, when you can just run ph, and at least have some better ways to handle it then pp stalling. as for mega manectric and mega absol, they are in a similar vein. why bother using it when you can use mega mewtwo x and y with enough attack to outdamage them even without using stab while also being faster and bulkier in the process respectively speaking.

We got through moldy sweepers just fine before. Admittedly there's been some power creep since, but we've also gotten new toys to deal with them, like Topsy Shot, that weren't available prior either.

okay rumors, im sorry for being mean to you about this, and i hope you forgive me once this is all over, but the ignorance of this comment is HUGE. first off, we didnt have the ev limit back then. we are frailer then ever before, and unlike 5th gen meta, this gen also has megas...which are basically super beefed out pokemon, thus forcing the meta completely out of the "bulky" phase that it was last gen. many pokemon had the bulk to handle moldy gengar(non mega since they didnt exist at the time) but now i highly doubt ANY pokemon can handle moldy mega gengar at +2. and lastly, have you ever noticed the lack of prankster topshot recently? its mostly because teams can easily just keep attacking it untill it eventually goes down. or can set up on a parting shot and force a ko. you cant compare our current metagame to the last gen in ANY way, because we honestly made the BIGGEST shift to the point its almost unbeleivably uncomparable

also fun fact: mold breaker sweepers became the meta shortly after unaware mechanics changed ergo even that gen had some problems with them. also topshot is the ONLY new toy we got ._. enless im missing something.

 

[DinaIsha]

I've worked my way up the BH ladder and peaked at #9. This is counting the losses I've had due to my terrible connection. As such, the only thing I can say, that ruins the fun in the metagame is Imposter Chansey/Blissey. If you think that something else is broken, it's supposed to be that way. That's the whole point of BH. But Imposter Chansey takes that broken something and attaches it to its humongous HP + Eviolite Boost.

I'm very sure this won't even be considered for a ban, but I'm just leaving my thoughts here.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I've worked my way up the BH ladder and peaked at #9. This is counting the losses I've had due to my terrible connection. As such, the only thing I can say, that ruins the fun in the metagame is Imposter Chansey/Blissey. If you think that something else is broken, it's supposed to be that way. That's the whole point of BH. But Imposter Chansey takes that broken something and attaches it to its humongous HP + Eviolite Boost.

I'm very sure this won't even be considered for a ban, but I'm just leaving my thoughts here.

I'm sorry, but this post makes very little sense to me for a variety of reasons.

First of all, as you acknowledged, verbatim has said he will not consider banning Imposter.

Secondly,

If you think that something else is broken, it's supposed to be that way. That's the whole point of BH.

I don't understand what this means. Broken means unhealthy for the metagame. In fact, the "whole point of BH" as I see it is to create a balanced metagame, but one with less restrictions than in standard Pokemon play. Nothing that is "supposed to be" broken should be allowed to remain in the meta, as a result.

Third, have you considered what a Chansey-less metagame would look like? Stall becomes significantly less viable, for one because of the significantly increased difficulty of PP stalling, and also because of how difficult it is to check sweepers, or even wallbreakers, with Shedinja counters. In a metagame with as many possibilities as BH has, I think it's perfectly just that a sweeper should have to Imposter-proof itself. It's a unique strategizing element that isn't present in most other metagames.

 

[DinaIsha]

Broken means unhealthy for the metagame.

I already mentioned that Imposter wouldn't even be considered for a ban. And I disagree with the argument that without Chansey, the Metagame would be at a loss for Defense. King's Shield, Unaware, Sacred Fire/Steam Eruption, Infestation and Prankster shenanigans are available and used extensively. Also with Chansey, you don't have to plan anything, predict or to say the least, act brilliant. You just have to bring it, take the opponent's offense, add it to your Defense and call it a day.

Imposter Chansey is the only thing that is off for me. Don't get me wrong, I use one. It's just that I don't see anything else that is broken to the point that they can't be countered/checked.

 

[Ranger Mike]

An imposter ban will never happen and here's why, chansey glues together the metagame and keeps to many things from being broken such as the mm2s, ates, and contrary but fuck contrary. The final one can be argued against but still. Before all of you are likes zomg broken checks broken the thing is that Chansey can be played around by a skilled player, all you need to counter chansey is a brain for gods sake. You just have to run anti imposter mons like megados which I have no idea whether or not it is still good. In the end an imposter ban is straight up silly. You just have to adjust your moves

 

[Uselesscrab]

Also with Chansey, you don't have to plan anything, predict or to say the least, act brilliant. You just have to bring it, take the opponent's offense, add it to your Defense and call it a day.

Most of what you said is valid, I concede (though not all of it was in direct response to what I said), but this is something I hear people say a lot against Chansey that I don't quite understand.

Say you're up against a Contrary Kyurem-White using Draco Meteor. It's already used it once as you switched in a Steel-type and is at +2 Special Attack. (This is a situation I've found myself in many times.) In this case, you do have to plan something. You can't just blindly switch in Chansey; it may die. So you sacrifice something else, then get Chansey or an Unaware/Prankster a free switch.

And this isn't even mentioning other, non-Eviolite Imposters, which do take quite a bit of skill to use. Red Card Chansey requires that you switch it in against a weaker attack so that you don't take too much damage. Lucky Punch Chansey has to be deployed in a timely manner against boosting sweepers. Toxic Orb Chansey has to be brought in at a time when it can't be Knocked Off or statused. Plate Chansey has to not only avoid not being Knocked Off, but also avoid switching in at all costs. (It's not that great.) Light Ball Pikachu has to be brought in an a situation where you have momentum, or can copy something like Fake Out that gives you a chance to hit the opponent easily. And of course, there are random things like Goggles Chansey too, but I think what I've explained already is enough.

 

[xJownage]

but thats like saying "dude, i know you're convicted of murder, but can you please speed it up, i have a date i need to go too" in court.

edit: i should also point out that i purposely exadurated my point for my shitty humor, but you get my point; tldr's are too breif to obtain ANY worthy opinion of justification of anything that makes a huge difference in a metagame. its just more respectful to get the 100% of both sides before you scream "ITS BROKENZ! BAN BECUZ NO GUUD ARGOMENTZ". especially when both sides give very solid reasons.

I think you misunderstood him. I honestly agree. Textwalls are unpleasing to read in general (especially since i am on mobile) and often I find people may not read entire posts. If you make a text wall, you can 1. Organize it kind of like you would giving out info on a word document (use headings) 2. Use spoilers to hide particularly long passages or semi-related rants and 3. Put a TL;DR at the end of your post in addition to the original text. Right now this thread looks kind of sloppy because of the disorganization, so it would be nice to fix that.

I think we can stop talking about evasion now, we all get the point.

Can somebody make a poll including the two -ates per team, complex -ate+speed+boom, ban outright, leave the same, or 1 per team? It would be a lot more efficient and might get consistent discussion going rather than this thread beimg a bunch of long posts mostly not adressing each other.