Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

[Rumors]

TL;DR version: more arguing because why not? But really, let's just get a vote going.

first and foremost, this arguement above is basically a "it restricts using other pokemon" which first off, is wrong, and second, isnt a valid arguement when it comes to banning something.

For one, I don't see how it's wrong since it does. If your pokemon is reliably 2HKOed before it can even act by common offensive pokemon, it's restricted from having much participation in the given meta. And this applies to a wide variety of Pokemon, including others I didn't mention, like Zekrom. Second, it's a valid arguement as forcing the meta to revolve heavily around specific Pokemon by forcing teams to carry some sort of check in order to function instead of running stuff that'd help their team more is over-centralization, plain and simple.

giratina hardwalls it

Going to nitpick here, but...

252+ Atk Life Orb Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 230-270 (45.6 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

Max phys def Gira getting potentially 2HKOed does not sound like being hard-walled to me. Especially since most Gira are likely not running max physical bulk, but probably either mixed or HP/Spe. Agrron and stuff like that works though, of course, and, in counter to you "why use something that can destroy half your team" you can, and currently have to, run a check to your own offensive sweepers anyway.

Plus that argument can be applied to both -ates and the Mewtwos you suggested over Manectric and Absol. Why use Fake Boomspeed when it runs over half your team? Yet people do it, and commonly in pairs, because it's just that good.

okay rumors, im sorry for being mean to you about this, and i hope you forgive me once this is all over...

<sniping everything in between for space>

...also topshot is the ONLY new toy we got ._. enless im missing something.

Bulky Pokemon are not as bulky anymore, but offensive Pokemon are even less bulky now, making them easier to revenge kill or just apply your own offensive pressure to keep them from getting momentum. And while offense got toys, defense got toys too. I'll just list them...

Topsy-Turvy
Parting Shot
Safety Goggles/Grass spore immunity
Mega-Aggron, Mega Venusaur, and other bulky, defensive megas
Aegislash, Xerneas, Yveltal, and other, new bulky pokemon who can go defensive
Assault Vest (fun fact: 252 Sp.A Mega-Gengar at +2 cannot OHKO 0 HP/0 SpD AV Regen Kyogre, who can, in turn, 2HKO with 0 Sp. A Surf, or OHKO with Rocks in play, calcs below)
Nuzzle
Acc boost to Will-o-Wisp
Fur Coat (not against Moldy, but most Moldy are special anyway)
Knock Off boost
King's Shield
Spiky Shield
Electrify + LR/MD/VA
Oblivion Wing
Powder (albeit rare)
Sticky Web
Infestation
Thousand Waves

And in terms of meta changes, Bouncers and Clerics are both far less common and you can't stack PH, making it easier to apply crippling status to a sweeper and have that status stick.

Some of these help offense too, like Knock Off boost and Oblivion Wing, but the fact they still benefit defensive teams means they are notable.

Also, Moldy did become the Gen V meta for a bit, but once the new and shiny wore off, it kind of faded back into a more occasional thing. After all, from what I gather, people remember Gen V for Spore hazard phazing and PH normals, not Moldy sweepers.

promised AV calcs

+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre on a critical hit: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And we'll assume Regenerator on Kyogre, because that's by far the best ability for it, so it won't be overly crippled by a big hit, if crippled at all.

Meanwhile...

0 SpA Kyogre Surf vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 217-256 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Lcass4919]

I think you misunderstood him. I honestly agree. Textwalls are unpleasing to read in general (especially since i am on mobile) and often I find people may not read entire posts. If you make a text wall, you can 1. Organize it kind of like you would giving out info on a word document (use headings) 2. Use spoilers to hide particularly long passages or semi-related rants and 3. Put a TL;DR at the end of your post in addition to the original text. Right now this thread looks kind of sloppy because of the disorganization, so it would be nice to fix that.

hey hey hey now, i even noted that "i exadurated" my point. and i did understand him, sometimes its better to get a "generalization" of someones point so they can get the general sense. but in that case why bother even looking if your not taking every minor detail into notice. i make 100% sure to read EVERY SINGLE argument before i even CONSIDER talking to anyone about anything mainly because if im not going to understand the reasoning of why people want it to stay or wanting to get it banned. its basically you just saying "i dont have time but i want to vote pro/ban just because" which i understand why someone wouldnt have time (i mean, im in college too you know) but i still try to at least skim through the main points. this is a "discussion" board. and in order to discuss you need to take EVERY crease of information provided. however, since this is opinion based, and just to make it easier to people, from now on i will put a tldr at the end. just...think about what i said here.

also...

every post you said in regards to me

okay. i completely forgot mega aerodactyl could run life orb. so i withdraw my past statement about giratina hardwalling it. i apologise. and in point of "why use anything over ilate" well thats because usually coverage/stab/something else idk is better then free strong priority and wallbreaking power. and on top of that your restricted to 3 types all with common weaknesses and counters.(thank god)

also when i said new toys for moldy sweepers, i meant "once they set up and your in a unfavorable position" however that was my fault for failing to elaborate on that.

lastly when i said it was wrong, i meant it as "ilate is not the only reason these pokemon dont see the light of day" i mean, if i wanted to run magic guard aero, id run it with a counter or two(chansey is pretty common) i mean, that calc on giratina prooves how powerful mega aero is. and its fast enough to outrun any non ilate pokemon in the process. lastly, this meta is very overcentralized. in fact, almost everything centralizes. you cant tell me chansey doesnt centralize the meta, or shedinja. the problem with bh logic, is we dont ask "if it overcentralizes" we ask "does it overcentralize in a very unhealthy way" much like pure power, huge power, wonderguard and shadow tag did. chansey overcentralizes, but in a way that keeps the meta stable and less setup spammy, shedinja centralizes, but its patheticly easy to get rid of. ilates centralize...but a simple kings sheild turns them into wet kittens and have decent counters all around.

also that last calc is the reason why my stall team loves kyogre. dat 58% doe.

 

[xJownage]

The reason the poll is good is because hopefully we can see where the community wants to go before a blind suspect begins. I feel like if we didnt do.that and did a suspect we would be telling the comm what they want rather than seeing what they want

Lcass4919 It isint even for me, i do read every single argument. Its because the thread looks very disorganzed and is a ton of textwalls, and to the average reader is a pain. Also its very annoying when we read a giant thing only to find out they agree with us.

 

[Rumors]

The poll is technically useful, but not all of those options are mutually exclusive and you can't pick multiple choices. After all, I feel that, regardless of what happens to -ates, those and other abilities with twins/triplets, such as Turbovolt Breaker, should be adjusted to fit ability clause rather than technically allow a loophole around it.


Lcass4919 I think we're just going in circles at this point not agreeing with each other, so I'm just going to drop it rather than keep getting nowhere. Let's just wait for the poll.

Also, like I said, one thing at a time. I'll worry about Imposter and Sheddy later, if necessary.

 

[Lcass4919]

The reason the poll is good is because hopefully we can see where the community wants to go before a blind suspect begins. I feel like if we didnt do.that and did a suspect we would be telling the comm what they want rather than seeing what they want

Lcass4919 It isint even for me, i do read every single argument. Its because the thread looks very disorganzed and is a ton of textwalls, and to the average reader is a pain. Also its very annoying when we read a giant thing only to find out they agree with us.

yeah, i understand. and that is why i decided to put tldrs for the rest of my comments that are big. though i think ive done enough arguing since im now talking in circles.

The poll is technically useful, but not all of those options are mutually exclusive and you can't pick multiple choices. After all, I feel that, regardless of what happens to -ates, those and other abilities with twins/triplets, such as Turbovolt Breaker, should be adjusted to fit ability clause rather than technically allow a loophole around it.


Lcass4919 I think we're just going in circles at this point not agreeing with each other, so I'm just going to drop it rather than keep getting nowhere. Let's just wait for the poll.

Also, like I said, one thing at a time. I'll worry about Imposter and Sheddy later, if necessary.

yeah, i noticed that too, so i will agree that we both drop it untill the actual poll happens. but the main question is if ilate will even BE the first subject of banning. tbh, id like to get evasion at least suspect tested if not quickbanned first.

 

[Uselesscrab]

So this thread sort of died... verbatim?

 

[verbatim]

Sorry, I've been busy with classes. Right now I'm planning polls for the ates and evasion clause, one of which will go up friday.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Yeah i think everyone is waiting for the polls though there has been next to no discussion on protean and the mega mewtwos.

 

[Rumors]

Protean's a tricky thing for me to bring up since it's really not that broken of an ability in general. Like, Protean Xern is strong, but hardly broken. The issue lies in X/Ytwo's combination of insane power and speed and Lati@s insane power when equipped with Soul Dew. Or at least, that's based on my casual observations. I've not done my homework yet, so everything I've said here comes with a few grains of salt.


I guess while I'm here, I should bring up Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Mawilte, and Medichamite for allowing Pokemon access to otherwise banned abilities. It's, again, not an argument about brokeness, centralization, or anything of that, but rather consistency. Pokemon who have the banned abilities naturally are not allowed to use them, so either they need to be allowed access to them or the offending stones should be removed. I'm fine either way on that, I just want the rules to be consistent.

 

[insanelegend]

Protean's a tricky thing for me to bring up since it's really not that broken of an ability in general. Like, Protean Xern is strong, but hardly broken. The issue lies in X/Ytwo's combination of insane power and speed and Lati@s insane power when equipped with Soul Dew. Or at least, that's based on my casual observations. I've not done my homework yet, so everything I've said here comes with a few grains of salt.


I guess while I'm here, I should bring up Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Mawilte, and Medichamite for allowing Pokemon access to otherwise banned abilities. It's, again, not an argument about brokeness, centralization, or anything of that, but rather consistency. Pokemon who have the banned abilities naturally are not allowed to use them, so either they need to be allowed access to them or the offending stones should be removed. I'm fine either way on that, I just want the rules to be consistent.

I feel this should at least be considered for Mega Gengar. Shadow Tag is an incredibly overpowered ability. It can easily be paired with another sweeper (say a Aerialate Raquaza) and take away what they have to stop it. Relying on your Mega Aggron to stop -ate spam? Mega Gengar can trap and dispatch it. Even Timid OHKOs with Focus Blast, and then Rayquaza can take out the rest of your team. It can also use another useful ability such as Magic Bounce before mega evolving to help it switch in and get a good chance to mega evolve

 

[Uselesscrab]

I feel this should at least be considered for Mega Gengar. Shadow Tag is an incredibly overpowered ability

It's, again, not an argument about brokeness, centralization, or anything of that, but rather consistency.

I feel like you sort of misinterpreted Rumors' point. Mega Gengar with Gengarite isn't broken. It's a surprising set, and incredibly useful if used correctly, but its relative frailty, along with its vulnerability to -ate priority, give it troubles. And because so many things run switching moves anyway (even your main example, Mega Aggron, often runs Baton Pass for safe switches), you are by no means guaranteed to kill what you trap. So, while it's very effective, it's not ban-worthy by virtue of its usefulness.

Instead, the point of these bans would be consistency. I'm not really sure if I want these mega stones to be banned, but I do understand the point of view.

 

[Lcass4919]

i agree with rumors. if they wont be banned then i want my huge power cleffa! seriously though, its not like anyone uses them, plus it will help with future possible mega's being overpowered in a bh meta (like for example mega salamence if aerialate gets banned/restricted will obviously have fewer checks and counters in the teir) it helps solve some future problems we may face without the entire meta crying over it.

 

[Fossil_Maniac_27]

I guess while I'm here, I should bring up Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Mawilte, and Medichamite for allowing Pokemon access to otherwise banned abilities. It's, again, not an argument about brokeness, centralization, or anything of that, but rather consistency. Pokemon who have the banned abilities naturally are not allowed to use them, so either they need to be allowed access to them or the offending stones should be removed. I'm fine either way on that, I just want the rules to be consistent.

I agree. I'd been yelled at in chat before for trapping non transformed imposter chansey thanks to illusion gengar mega evolving into shadow tag gengar. I also got swept once because I wasn't expecting Simple Shift Gear Mawile to evolve into Huge Power. They aren't exactly broken, but they do kind of break the rules.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I agree. I'd been yelled at in chat before for trapping non transformed imposter chansey thanks to illusion gengar mega evolving into shadow tag gengar. I also got swept once because I wasn't expecting Simple Shift Gear Mawile to evolve into Huge Power. They aren't exactly broken, but they do kind of break the rules.

The thing is, what they really do is adhere directly to the mechanics of the game, rather than breaking any rules. I understand it's inconsistent, but if BH was somehow playable on 3DS, this is how it would work too, and we always like following game mechanics...

Also, the points you made are somewhat irrelevant, no offense. There's really no reason to use Kangaskhan-Mega and Medicham-Mega without their mega stones, and Mawile-Mega is only useful for its typing (outside of Huge Power). So not expecting a Mawile-Mega to mega evolve isn't really a good reason here.

Gengar-Mega is the lone exception, though — a Pokemon that is extremely useful without its banned ability. It also plays totally different roles with and without Shadow Tag, making it especially difficult to predict. If there was one problematic stone, it would be Gengarite, in my opinion.

 

[Fossil_Maniac_27]

The thing is, what they really do is adhere directly to the mechanics of the game, rather than breaking any rules. I understand it's inconsistent, but if BH was somehow playable on 3DS, this is how it would work too, and we always like following game mechanics...

Also, the points you made are somewhat irrelevant, no offense. There's really no reason to use Kangaskhan-Mega and Medicham-Mega without their mega stones, and Mawile-Mega is only useful for its typing (outside of Huge Power). So not expecting a Mawile-Mega to mega evolve isn't really a good reason here.

Gengar-Mega is the lone exception, though — a Pokemon that is extremely useful without its banned ability. It also plays totally different roles with and without Shadow Tag, making it especially difficult to predict. If there was one problematic stone, it would be Gengarite, in my opinion.

Yeah I know those weren't really the best examples. I was relatively new to BH when I got swept my mawile, but I did bring this subject up at one point on the regular BH thread. I know we adhere to game mechanics, but we also adhere to our ban list, so I feel those mega stones should be gotten rid of. Kanghaskhan can still run seismic shade fang if it wants to, which was one of the reasons parental bond was banned in the first place.

 

[verbatim]

yeah, i understand. and that is why i decided to put tldrs for the rest of my comments that are big. though i think ive done enough arguing since im now talking in circles.


yeah, i noticed that too, so i will agree that we both drop it untill the actual poll happens. but the main question is if ilate will even BE the first subject of banning. tbh, id like to get evasion at least suspect tested if not quickbanned first.

Evasion's first, mainly because real life has left me with little time to think about the best options for -ates, IK that they are the more important question to answer, and will most definitely be next.

 

[Lcass4919]

Evasion's first, mainly because real life has left me with little time to think about the best options for -ates, IK that they are the more important question to answer, and will most definitely be next.

ahh allrighty, thank you for clarification.

edit: also dispite the fact that i strongly oppose the ilate ban, part of me looks forward to that, since it can go either way. and if we go complex ban route, it only helps my stall team more. :P

 

[Heisenerg]

I think we all know what to discuss next.

I personally don't think mRayquaza is the culprit as some of the new -ates can threaten virtually all Pokemon with the right coverage moves; for example, there are very few Pokemon that can take Boomburst/Magma Storm, the only ones of which I know are mSlowbro and pGroudon.

 

[E4 Flint]

I hope you mean an -ate clause or ban and not a mRayquaza ban. Remember, it's not even been 24 hours since we could use it in BH.

 

[Halliday]

I hope you mean an -ate clause or ban and not a mRayquaza ban. Remember, it's not even been 24 hours since we could use it in BH.

I hate to say it flint, but from what I've seen, that's almost enough. Still, we should wait a little bit and see if anything pops up to make it less broken.

 

[E4 Flint]

You mean it took you 24 hours to figure out that no matter what set mRayquaza uses there is absolutely no way to counter it sufficiently? Please. Let's not forget that in the first 24 hours of the unaware change, Mold breaker, and the first 24 hours of gen 6 sticky web, the mega mewtwos and xerneas, were being considered for bans. I would say it's even premature to talk about any sort of ban for at least a week, especially since all the changes are not even in yet.

 

[Rumors]

Or Kyu-B single-handidly dominating the meta for about a week there after Fridge got added.

Regardless though, I don't think the problem would be Rayquaza itself. Just... well, I'm not going to be a broken record, but without access to STAB + 30% boosted priority/best special nuke in the game, it'd be a lot easier to revenge/wall/check.

 

[E4 Flint]

Just accidentally realized the groudon primal is the greatest (usual) no guard check ever lol (along with rotom heat I guess)

Bad example for cube, he dominated again when everyone was experimenting and then people got used to him; that could just be the same thing in action here. It's too soon to say either way. The problem seems to be the same as it was before and that is being able to spam 2 of each -ate - now the mons are stronger for selection than before. Remove the number not the ability. But, I don't want to be drawn into the debate on that just yet cause I want to try out more ORAS stuff (thinking tinted uturn beedrill). I would recommend everyone else to as well and then perhaps getting into mass hysteria mode.

 

[Rumors]

But that's exactly what I meant with Kyu-B. (And, for the record, I had no issues with -ates pre-510. It was strong, but fair.)

Also, not starting the debate again, but I'll re-iterate that I'd prefer a complex ban of three certain moves + -ates rather than removing -ates entirely. I imagine Aerilate Return Rayquaza would still be scary, but also very fair.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

I disagree, i think we do need to talk about a Mega Rayquaza ban. Yes it has only been a few days since it became usable and already it shows a clear cut capability to run diverse enough sets to beat almost any one of its walls. With 180 in each attacking set it can is the union of the Kyurem formes in one pokemon, now with an added speed boost so it outspeeds a Kyurem Black that attempts to revenge kill it. And it only needs the help of Stealth Rock or Fake Out to KO Kyurem Black without even being touched by Kyurem Black's deadly Ice Extremespeed. See for yourself:

252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 319-376 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yes this Rayquaza is also holding sky plate. While not all players may choose to have their Mega Rayquaza hold a sky plate or life orb both increase its damage output enough to Ko Kyurem Black and other pokemon it would otherwise fail to KO.

Say we determine Mega Rayquaza is not the problems but the ates? How does one plan to wall a Contrary Rayquaza set? Or Protean? Protean sounds the more dangerous of the two sets. Protean Rayquaza will now have access to Hyperspace Fury allowing it to strike with added power against BH's top walls such as Giratina and Mega Slowbro.

4 SpA Protean Rayquaza Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 434-512 (110.1 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hyperspace Fury is not in the damage calculator so i used dark pulse and increased its base power. Even if Slowbro runs special defense the best thing it can do is check Protean Mega Rayquaza because it would be incapable of switching into a potential Bolt Strike or Hyperspace Fury. Giratina fairs little better against a Hyperspace Fury switch in. Steel types would need to run Flash Fire or perish to the power of Mega Rayquaza's V-Create. It may be early but Mega Rayquaza already looks to be a overpowering force. It has the potential to ruin almost any Pokemon that attempts to counter it. If you have found something that preforms better against Mega Rayquaza i urge you to respond. If you disagree with any of my arguments i welcome criticism. I truly feel this needs to be discussed before -ates.

Edit: I screwed up the Kyurem Black versus Aerliate Rayquaza calc. This is the correct one:
252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 288-339 (73.6 - 86.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Kyurem Black is still not even a reliable check to aerilate Mega Ray. Though there is a chance your Kyurem Black lives the Espeed hit after SR it is unlikely.