Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion

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-ates have already been discussed and is planned to be next once Verbatim decides how he wants to hold the poll (assuming he hasn't/doesn't change his mind).

Also, both of your examples use abilities that we've already discussed. Also also, you're using a special attacking example against a lopsided physical wall. Run that same calc against, say , Kyogre-P, Cress, Lugia, Giratina, Registeel, Darm-Z, non-Imposter Chansey (as rare as that one is), Umbreon, Xerneas, Yveltal, or any of the other usual special or mixed walls.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I disagree, i think we do need to talk about a Mega Rayquaza ban. Yes it has only been a few days since it became usable and already it shows a clear cut capability to run diverse enough sets to beat almost any one of its walls. With 180 in each attacking set it can is the union of the Kyurem formes in one pokemon, now with an added speed boost so it outspeeds a Kyurem Black that attempts to revenge kill it. And it only needs the help of Stealth Rock or Fake Out to KO Kyurem Black without even being touched by Kyurem Black's deadly Ice Extremespeed. See for yourself:

252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 319-376 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yes this Rayquaza is also holding sky plate. While not all players may choose to have their Mega Rayquaza hold a sky plate or life orb both increase its damage output enough to Ko Kyurem Black and other pokemon it would otherwise fail to KO.

Say we determine Mega Rayquaza is not the problems but the ates? How does one plan to wall a Contrary Rayquaza set? Or Protean? Protean sounds the more dangerous of the two sets. Protean Rayquaza will now have access to Hyperspace Fury allowing it to strike with added power against BH's top walls such as Giratina and Mega Slowbro.

4 SpA Protean Rayquaza Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 434-512 (110.1 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hyperspace Fury is not in the damage calculator so i used dark pulse and increased its base power. Even if Slowbro runs special defense the best thing it can do is check Protean Mega Rayquaza because it would be incapable of switching into a potential Bolt Strike or Hyperspace Fury. Giratina fairs little better against a Hyperspace Fury switch in. Steel types would need to run Flash Fire or perish to the power of Mega Rayquaza's V-Create. It may be early but Mega Rayquaza already looks to be a overpowering force. It has the potential to ruin almost any Pokemon that attempts to counter it. If you have found something that preforms better against Mega Rayquaza i urge you to respond. If you disagree with any of my arguments i welcome criticism. I truly feel this needs to be discussed before -ates.
some things i want to point out to you, so first and furthermost, so far only ONE set is considered banworthy, because lets face it, its the ONLY set people use. and ironically enough, the same suspect is with illate, whom is about to be suspected right now. to say "mega rayquaza is broken" is a very big dramatication, mainly considering the lack of niche we have seen out of it other then aerialate.

now, dont get me wrong, i want to suspect mega ray too, but to suspect it SO SOON WHEN THE MAIN PROBLEM WE HAVE SEEN WITH RAY IS AERILATE. its just kind of...dumb. i mean, me and flint already found counters to most rayquazas, and this is on the first day. seriously, lets wait till aerialate is gone/deemed not broken before we make hasty judgements.

second off, the second calc is kind of misleading for a couple of reasons. first off your using a slowbro to counter a poke that can either run physical or special. usually that's what shedinja/chansey/revenge killing is for(and if someone is stupid enough to run mixed, chansey will have a field day with the opposing team might i add). second, hyperspace fury is (not atm in showdown, but hopefully someone sees this) not able to be used by ANY pokemon but hoopas alternate form. its coded in the game to respond with "the pokemon cant use the move" or something. though that's just a bit of a nitpick on my part. seriously, i understand how scary this thing looks/is, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

saying something is broken because of something broken thats going to be suspected is really really ignorant. and its even more ignorant to say somethings broken because it can outpower something with piss poor spc def while its spc attack is actually decent uninvested. like...are we forgetting this is an offensive metagame? and plenty of sweepers in the teir outspeed ray and ohko it? i say lets suspect aerialate, AND THEN, talk about mega ray.
 
I am trying to find sets that could possibly be way too strong for this meta and I came up with this:

Swagatina (Giratina) @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spite
- Substitute
- Protect
- Recover

2 Giratinas get Unaware, 2 get Magic Bounce, and 2 get Aroma Veil. I have experience in Classic Hackmons, but in BH not as much. So I am not exactly sure if this might need to be banned. 0 Atk IVs is to prevent Foul Play, which shows up occasionally. Strangely though, this sets seems like it would be banned in Classic Hackmons rather than BH. :/

As a second note, you can run the Funbro set on a Giratina. Which is allowed. I believe this should also be banned seemingly. 0.o
 
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Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
I am trying to find sets that could possibly be way too strong for this meta and I came up with this:

Swagatina (Giratina) @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spite
- Substitute
- Protect
- Recover

2 Giratinas get Unaware, 2 get Magic Bounce, and 2 get Aroma Veil. I have experience in Classic Hackmons, but in BH not as much. So I am not exactly sure if this might need to be banned. 0 Atk IVs is to prevent Foul Play, which shows up occasionally. Strangely though, this sets seems like it would be banned in Classic Hackmons rather than BH. :/

As a second note, you can run the Funbro set on a Giratina. Which is allowed. I believe this should also be banned seemingly. 0.o
This set isn't broken at all tbh, my Hoopa-U uses this as set-up fodder and sweeps (it's Mold Breaker). Magic Bounce also bounces Spite back. It's similar to Cactus's Blood Orange set.
As for Endless Battles, they can't be banned due to the many possibilities for them, but you will get a loss if you're found out by a leader (and potentially even a harsher punishment), so just don't run it.
 
I am trying to find sets that could possibly be way too strong for this meta and I came up with this:

Swagatina (Giratina) @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spite
- Substitute
- Protect
- Recover

2 Giratinas get Unaware, 2 get Magic Bounce, and 2 get Aroma Veil. I have experience in Classic Hackmons, but in BH not as much. So I am not exactly sure if this might need to be banned. 0 Atk IVs is to prevent Foul Play, which shows up occasionally. Strangely though, this sets seems like it would be banned in Classic Hackmons rather than BH. :/

As a second note, you can run the Funbro set on a Giratina. Which is allowed. I believe this should also be banned seemingly. 0.o
This set isn't broken at all tbh, my Hoopa-U uses this as set-up fodder and sweeps (it's Mold Breaker). Magic Bounce also bounces Spite back. It's similar to Cactus's Blood Orange set.
As for Endless Battles, they can't be banned due to the many possibilities for them, but you will get a loss if you're found out by a leader (and potentially even a harsher punishment), so just don't run it.
I'd also like to point out that Spiky Shield is better than Protect in almost all circumstances (yeah, I know about Deoxys-Attack), and that this isn't really the right thread for this; rather, since it's not a current suspect, it belongs in the main BH thread.

Also, splitting EVs between Defense and Special Defense like that usually isn't a good idea.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I'd also like to point out that Spiky Shield is better than Protect in almost all circumstances (yeah, I know about Deoxys-Attack), and that this isn't really the right thread for this; rather, since it's not a current suspect, it belongs in the main BH thread.

Also, splitting EVs between Defense and Special Defense like that usually isn't a good idea.
false. protect has another niche of being the only protect move(barring detect, but pp issues) that has a 50% succession rather then 30% so protect can be used 3 times in a row, with the same success rate as spiky shield twice in a row(calculating each percentage chance individually rather then summed up). however, this is only notably good on a few circumstances. which is safe to say, this is not one of them.
 
Well its been a few weeks since the -ate clause was passed and players have had time to gauge its effectiveness in balancing the meta. To be blunt the clause has had zero effect on the current meta. -ate spam was long gone even before the clause was passed and to be frank one -ate can be enough. Specifically one on pokemon: Mega Rayquaza. Mega Rayquaza is the most centralizing force in the metagame (argument can be made for Primal Don or Imposter). Its decent speed and fantastic mixed stats make it the premier -ate spam mon and can break through all but the most dedicated counters. Except even those dedicated counters can fail as well. For anyone who needs a refresher the most common Mega Ray set looks something like this:
mega-ray.png
Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate/Safety Goggles/Life Orb/?????
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Earth Power/Precipice Blades

Ground Coverage has quickly become a staple due to the use of Registeel and Regirock to counter Mega Rayquaza. This leaves very few options. Levitran might work since few run Thousand Arrows. Fur Coat Chansey is the only reliable counter in the meta right now.

Personally I have played dozens of matches in the ORAS meta and I find Balanced Hackmons to be anything but balanced. Stall has little to no chance of success in the meta and offense has little diversity and is totally centralized around the titans that are Primal Groudon, Mega Ray, and Primal Kyogre. I think serious suspect discussion needs to start again. I might not be 100% on point all the time but I think most of us can agree something needs to be done to keep the metagame balanced.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Well its been a few weeks since the -ate clause was passed and players have had time to gauge its effectiveness in balancing the meta. To be blunt the clause has had zero effect on the current meta. -ate spam was long gone even before the clause was passed and to be frank one -ate can be enough. Specifically one on pokemon: Mega Rayquaza. Mega Rayquaza is the most centralizing force in the metagame (argument can be made for Primal Don or Imposter). Its decent speed and fantastic mixed stats make it the premier -ate spam mon and can break through all but the most dedicated counters. Except even those dedicated counters can fail as well. For anyone who needs a refresher the most common Mega Ray set looks something like this:
View attachment 33361
Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate/Safety Goggles/Life Orb/?????
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Earth Power/Precipice Blades

Ground Coverage has quickly become a staple due to the use of Registeel and Regirock to counter Mega Rayquaza. This leaves very few options. Levitran might work since few run Thousand Arrows. Fur Coat Chansey is the only reliable counter in the meta right now.

Personally I have played dozens of matches in the ORAS meta and I find Balanced Hackmons to be anything but balanced. Stall has little to no chance of success in the meta and offense has little diversity and is totally centralized around the titans that are Primal Groudon, Mega Ray, and Primal Kyogre. I think serious suspect discussion needs to start again. I might not be 100% on point all the time but I think most of us can agree something needs to be done to keep the metagame balanced.
im guessing you are a bit out of the loop, but verbatim specifically said banning pokemon is a no-go.
 
We all agree on the problem, p-Groudon assist spam is bad. we can't agree on how to solve it.

I think (at the moment, anyway) that banning t-arrows is the preferable alternative, because what does t-arrows CONTRIBUTE to the metagame? I think it centralizes it and makes team building less diverse.
I don't think we should ban assist because it's fun to make clever assist teams.
I don't think we should ban p-groudon because he's not thaaatt op...

aaannnddd argue!
 
I've posted most of my thoughts on Primal Groundon already in the other BH thread, but to sum it up here:

-Greatest STAB combination bestowed onto a Pokemon in ages
- Lack of good resists to Thousand Arrows
- Insane Attack allows it to break 99% of would be counters with abilities like Tinted Lens+Adapt and Choice Band
- Good enough Bulk and typing to shrug off priority.
- Assist gives it Imposter proof priority allowing it to sweep through the meta with ease

I find Primal Groudon to be the source of most of these problems. Regular Groudon and other Ground types that could use assist T-Arrows spam are weaker to pirority and -Ates. Kyurem Black answers this easily make the a team based around the strategy much less viable.

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Therefore I suggest banning Primal Groudon first. If the Community is less supportive of this ban then an Assist ban would be next in order to do priority spam's limiting nature. Then a Thousand Arrows ban, and finally a Species Clause limiting all pokemon to 1 would be last in line.
 
The problem with trying to ban Primal Groudon, Kingslayer2779, is this:
im guessing you are a bit out of the loop, but verbatim specifically said banning pokemon is a no-go.
I think a Thousand Arrows ban is the best idea as a result. You could argue that Assist is a better target for a ban, but gimmicky moves like Assist can make teambuilding fun, and Balanced Hackmons is supposed to be all about creativity.

P.S. Kingslayer, your signature is brilliant. I lol'd.
 
Honestly I'd rather go with thousand arrows + assist when presented together in a team or thousand arrows alone.
Thousand arrows is about un resistable and outright nasty move that with stab becomes a major pain in the ass to deal with.
Now, it isn't so bad when you can outspeed the thing but when that goes out of the gutter with assist giving it the priority, granted you could say "what about copycat?" but copycat can be thrown off course with protect variants and other priority.

Assist alone is pretty powerful with the correct moves, giving a powerful move priority can be really deadly such as v-create boomburst, etc.. but then again these moves can be more easily walled, can be resisted/immunitied.
Thousand arrows has very little things that can resist them, and there is nothing immune to it. Which makes thousand arrows combined with assist just that fucking terrifyingly overpowered with groudon primal. Yeah you can still resist play/wall with typings that are absolutely terrible alone and tend to lose resist to thousand arrows when paired with other typing that could make them less terrible (grass currently in BH as solo typing without rock/steel? yeaaaah no. Bug isn't that great either and not many solo bug types excist with great enough BST to be able to deal with stuff, apart from maybe arceus-bug)

Now looking at thousand arrows, it's absolutely amazing coverage move, but then again it hovers just in that base power zone that to milk everything out of it you pretty much need STAB or otherways to increase attack to make use of it (and we all know our friend imposter who enjoys turning the tables), thus makign it most potent at hands of groudon and protean users. Which once more leads to the earlier assist phrasing I took out on a walk there, leading to the harder to imposter deal with the assists mechanics.

Overall?
I'd honestly go with assist + thousand arrows presented together.
Granted its bit more complicated than outright banning thousand arrows or assist, but honestly, just look at BH as a meta alone and tell me, is this meta simple to begin with to even justify all bans to have to be "simple" bans?
 
I don't know where I stand on what needs to be done, but when people are legitimately theorymonning crap that would be utterly useless in nearly every other situation just to try to beat Assistdon, such as Fur Coat/Flashfire Tangrowth, then there's definitely a problem.

Though on Groudon-P itself, it's worth noting that it is the strongest physical attacker in the game right now, though tied for its role. Unlike its contemporaries though, it is immune to burn (probably one of the best ways to check any physical attacker) without resorting to gimmicky shenanigans like Soak.
 
The problem with trying to ban Primal Groudon, Kingslayer2779, is this:


I think a Thousand Arrows ban is the best idea as a result. You could argue that Assist is a better target for a ban, but gimmicky moves like Assist can make teambuilding fun, and Balanced Hackmons is supposed to be all about creativity.

P.S. Kingslayer, your signature is brilliant. I lol'd.

I know Verbatim said no Pokemon bans but i think he should reconsider in light of evidence and Groudon spam taking over the metagame.
 
Might I re-suggest species clause? One of the major abuses with Assist-don teams is, well, 3-6 Groudon-Ps on the team all spamming the same stuff. Aka, threat stacking to overwhelm whatever checks or counters your team might have. Species clause would reign in their power significantly without having to ban any moves or Pokemon. Sure, they could still use Garchomp-M, Lando-T, and... well, I guess Excadrill or Gorlurk or Gliscor or Arc-Ground or I don't know for more than 3 Assist abusers. But, all of those would have significantly less power than Groudon-P and it would make the team archetype much, much less centralizing.

Off the top of my head, it'd hurt double Imposter a bit, though they still have Blissey, Lati@s, and Pikachu, but I can't think of any other major strategies that'd be otherwise affected.
 
While I don't have much of anything to say on assist Groudon, I'm perplexed as to why people are suggesting bans that aren't Assist.

Assist is essentially a stupid strategy that wins based on team match-up and nothing more. If thousand arrows is banned, is there any reason why assist banded v-create backed by drought wouldn't take over? Granted, it would be worse mostly because of Flash Fire, but it would still be completely unfair how it serves to crush certain teams despite being beaten by others. It doesn't matter if there are counters, the point still stands that such strategies only exist to fuck up certain teams and force them to run sub-par shit just to defeat Assist.

If Groudon-P is banned (which verbatim said is out of the question for obvious reasons, but let's just assume for the sake of argument) there's still things like assist V-Create Darmanitans, Assist Thousand Arrows Garchomp-Mega (everyone seems to have forgotten this is another Ground type with only 10 less attack that could pretty much do the exact same thing Groudon does...) and plenty of other repulsive assist users like Dragon Ascent Rayquaza. Of course they're more manageable, but once again, why on earth would we want to keep a strategy that wins or loses based on team match up and abuses chatterhax on the side?

We shouldn't be banning other things just so we can keep using retarded gimmicks that take no skill whatsoever to use.

EDIT: Not to mention banning thousand arrows or Groudon-P would cause FAR more collateral damage than banning Assist.
 
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I think banning t-arrows would rock the metagame in a positive way, be a bit of a nerf to p-Don (which would be nice), and make flying types more viable for team building. But mostly i'd just be sad to see flint's assist team go.
 
Agreed. As if spamming a high-BP move isn't enough, getting priority on it, as well as safely retaining 252 HP is anything but competitive.

There might be some checks, but so far they seem very limited. Building new checks for a single strategy of a single Mon is very unhealthy.

And as mentioned above, TA ban would not affect AssistSpam teams to any extent. It might slow it down, but sooner or later it will be cancerous again.

This is like King's Rock Cloyster in STABmons. It is very good and easy to spam, which is fine, but without proper support, you win without the opponent ever making a move/moving as little as possible. That's uncompetitive in all definitions of the word.
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
And as mentioned above, TA ban would not affect AssistSpam teams to any extent. It might slow it down, but sooner or later it will be cancerous again.
yes it would dinaisha, obviously they would still be "good"(barely), but it wouldnt be "cancerous" enless gamefreak decides to pull another "thousand arrows" out of there pocket. boomburst, earthquake...judgement...have all been used as substitutes and all of which are lackluster (mainly due to their lack of coverage) what makes assist spam so cancerous in the first place, is that all three fit togeather too perfectly. "move that is imposter proof and prioritized? check. move that has perfect mono coverage for bh standards? check. perfect abuser which is immune to burns and has 180 base power and 160 defense for atespam blocking, yet held back by its low speed? check." our best course of actions for assistspam are "eliminating the coverage" or "eliminating the imposter proof priority" both of which will solve the problem easily. one which keeps a somewhat viable strat ongoing, and nerfs perhaps the strongest pokemon in the teir save for rayquaza by neutering its flawless coverage at the cost of a very common attack, or one that keeps a very very useful move in tact, at the cost of a viable strat.

or we could complex arrows/assist. which would give best of both worlds. but complex ban bahd.
 
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So you're saying banning TA would enable Flying Types to be a good check. But what good would they be against a banded Sun-boosted VCreate?

At the best, it would force the meta to develop Flash Fire Flying Types.

Uncompetitiveness should be removed, not nerfed.
 
So you're saying banning TA would enable Flying Types to be a good check. But what good would they be against a banded Sun-boosted VCreate?

At the best, it would force the meta to develop Flash Fire Flying Types.

Uncompetitiveness should be removed, not nerfed.
Nah, I think there are other ways around it, like Levitate Fire-types.
 
I have never personally seen an Assist team that wasn't PGroudon TA spam. I'm not sure why we're trying so hard to save something that really doesn't need to be saved.

I would ban Assist and put this bullshit to rest for good.

While banning Thousand Arrows does significantly weaken the team, it's still alive. I want it deader than dead. It's moronic.
 
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