BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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im ok with Innhards Out gone but nobody posted about changes between full EV and 510 EV Innhards Out.

In Full EV meta;
1.) Choice items are weaker
2.) No easy 1HKOs on offense vs offense
3.) +1 boosts secure 2HKOs
4.) No Def / SpD EVs are a pay
5.) Focus Sashs are rarer
6.) More abilities viable
7.) Rapid Spin 2HKO 13 Def Chansey
8.) Its Chansey not Innhards out

Im very very surprised 27 comments said Quickban, in terms of comments it was 27-1 (only me).
Total majority and Innhards Out being weaker than in 510 EV meta is a big LOL.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
My Chansey spam team is gone but

Good riddance. Innhards Out was the unhealthiest thing in BH metagame due to its ability to eliminate any opponent one wishes, instead of luring them into inevitable death or chipping it down by using a thing called 'skill'.

Now players in BH in general, will have to make serious decisions when it comes to aiming a foe to remove; pretty sure most people including me has very numb sense of making predictions atm due to Innards Out has been solving majority of these sort of issues.

Also yes, full EV meta is now going to be more interesting, since supports now won't have to give 0 EVs and IVs into Attack just to let IO Chansey live from U-turn.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that Shell Smash is still kind of dumb? -ate speed is still pretty unviable because Psychic Surge and Dazzling are as common as ever, so that's out. Unaware is kind of bad in general (and has to watch out for Sunsteel/Moongeist), and Imposters can be worked around. Defensive teams can deal with it pretty easily but yeah it seems like there's not much counterplay on offense teams besides dumb stuff like Prankster Destiny Bond.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Am I the only one who thinks that Shell Smash is still kind of dumb? -ate speed is still pretty unviable because Psychic Surge and Dazzling are as common as ever, so that's out. Unaware is kind of bad in general (and has to watch out for Sunsteel/Moongeist), and Imposters can be worked around. Defensive teams can deal with it pretty easily but yeah it seems like there's not much counterplay on offense teams besides dumb stuff like Prankster Destiny Bond.
We were talking about this briefly prior to the EV limit removal or around the time we were focused on Water Bubble Suspect (I think?). We were discussing about how Shell Smash is worthy to be considered a problem:
Move Ban:
A banworthy move would be:
  • A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter
They would be effective without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition
Now, the move Shell Smash instantly doubles both ways (atk & sp.atk) of damage output as well as doubling the speed. I believe one can simply do this by pressing a button after moving a cursor to the box named "Shell Smash". This became more problematic due to the fact that EV limit removals now let even relatively slow threats like Primal Grouodn to outspeed the entire metagame without boost or Choice Item.

Now everything is significantly bulkier, one needs a better damage output to do "wallbreaking", and Shell Smash is now just 'splashable' to everything that has appropriate stats of offense, and defense drops are mediated by carrying Focus Sash or White Herb.

I wonder if this should be considered banworthy yet, but I believe we will have to put this into consideration as we adapt to the new meta after Water Bubble, EV limits, and Innards Out have been gone from this metagame.

Overall, I agree with the post above but it might be too soon to think about a ban (or another vote of quickban vs suspect).
 
I think that it would also be good idea to keep in mind that Psychic Terrain only affects grounded mons. So if you ran Levitate, or were a Flying-Type, you would be able to use priority.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
After a long period of struggle metagame after IO ban, I thought BH would be in some sort of serenity. It was pretty chaotic from ExtremeEvoBoost, CFZ's, Water Bubble, Innards Out, and etc.
I was frequently posting lots of posts in this thread about how all these things should be suspected over time, but now I notice I need to take time and go over things one by one.

I would like to address my opinions, and ask your opinions about the move Shell Smash.

I realize APS has already been discussed, and I talked about Shell Smash previously, but I felt like I needed to talk about this due to the fact that we have not suspected / banned anything that is related to APS (Anti-Priority-Setup).

So why do I say Shell Smash is a problem?

A banworthy move would be:
  • A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter
They would be effective without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition

1. Shell Smash requires no skill to use, and it forces the preparation.
As widely known as it is, Shell Smash is the primary setup move that can fit on anything, assuming the user has reasonable stats in offense. To shorten the move's explanation, it doubles the damage input and speed in exchange of losing bulk. One click, the damage is doubled, and you outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. This trait of the move allows stuff like Primal Ground to get past Fur Coat Giratina by using special coverage, or just simply overpower it.

Many checks such as Prankster Haze have been developed, and the newly introduced move called Spectral Thief seemed to alleviate this issue. But they are sometimes not enough to stop sweepers.

Prankster Haze is forced to spam Haze until the setup sweeper decides to stop spamming Shell Smash and switch to something else, and this ends up messing up the momentum itself. Even Destiny Bond is sometimes not enough, especially against hyper-offensive teams with 3-4 different 'mons with access to Shell Smash.

Spectral Thief is a fantastic move that can be, or more precisely, should be stapled into most support 'mons to reduce their passivity. However, according to my experience, supports' movesets are in this structure:

- Recovery
- Switching moves
- Anti-setup
- Hazards or its control (Stealth Rock or Defog)

Recovery is self-explantory. Switching moves is crucially important in any BH teams because they need their wallbreakers / sweepers to safely switch in. But what about two other moveslots?

If you choose Haze for Anti-setup, you become VERY passive.
If you choose Topsy-Tursy or Encore, you become setup fodder for APS user.
If you choose Hazards as 4th moveslot, you become totally passive to Magic Bounce user.
If you choose Core Enforcer, you can stop PH users but someone has to die next turn after setup from APS.
If you choose Destiny Bond to stop out-of-control sweeper... I won't say how passive that is.

The truth is, due to setup-spams, support 'mons have hard time fitting anything into their slot. Even RegenVest users are forced to run Spectral Thief to stop Shell Smash.

I believe this is somewhat similar phenomenon as when Water Bubble existed, Water Absorb was chosen to stop the madness. Although Spectral Thief is much more viable outsides checking APS user (such as best physical Ghost-type coverage for sweepers), it is very irrelevant move to support 'mons outsides stealing potential APS boost. I won't describe a move causing other 'mons to sacrifice their moveslot to check it, as healthy.

2. Shell Smash can be stapled into almost anything.
If we take a quick look at PS!,

(Ordered from highest BST if you couldn't tell. Excluded Zygarde-C and Giratina due to their better viability as support archetype.)
upload_2017-3-31_0-0-11.png

upload_2017-3-31_0-1-34.png

upload_2017-3-31_0-2-48.png


I will not go further down the list.

ALL OF THESE MONS, can run Shell Smash, and make decent outcome. Some are outclassed by others, but they can all be potentially empowered enough to oppress the stall team.

Shell Smash just comes out of nowhere among these 'mons. They can just abuse their stats with +2 boost to break through anything, and this thing became a problem this gen due to
Power Trip that no one is immune to,
Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam that goes through Unaware and Sturdy.

Life is harsh. You never know when they might pull out Shell Smash and force you to sacrifice a teammate or send Imposter or Prankster with Destiny Bond.

3. Just like how all banned abilities are, Imposter is NOT safe from this.
Imposter doesn't like taking CFZ's.
Water Bubble hurts as well.

I will keep this short.

Shell Smash drops defensive stats and it completely nullifies the Eviolite boost from Imposter Chansey, and it is risked of losing significant portion of its health or even being OHKO'ed. Even with no-EV limits, one can simply adjust the investment to OHKO its own Imposter after the boost.

Unburden + White Herb + Imprison makes Imposter useless unless you need a struggle damage to stop sweeper as a last-ditch method.

Unburden + 4x weakness move (such as Shell Smash + Focus Sash Kartana with Sacred Fire, not viable but as example) just dispatches Imposter immediately.

If Imposter revenge kills with Scarf, the next check with unique typing that can take all moves from sweeper or Unaware + Spectral Theif will get you.

Also, don't forget APS often carries Judgment and Multi-Attack.


I am aware that majority of you are not enthused in looking over Shell Smash into too much depth, but this is what I think. I am open-hearted and ready to take any criticisms and counter-arguments.
 
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After a long period of struggle metagame after IO ban, I thought BH would be in some sort of serenity. It was pretty chaotic from ExtremeEvoBoost, CFZ's, Water Bubble, Innards Out, and etc.
I was frequently posting lots of posts in this thread about how all these things should be suspected over time, but now I notice I need to take time and go over things one by one.

I would like to address my opinions, and ask your opinions about the move Shell Smash.

I realize APS has already been discussed, and I talked about Shell Smash previously, but I felt like I needed to talk about this due to the fact that we have not suspected / banned anything that is related to APS (Anti-Priority-Setup).

So why do I say Shell Smash is a problem?




1. Shell Smash requires no skill to use, and it forces the preparation.
As widely known as it is, Shell Smash is the primary setup move that can fit on anything, assuming the user has reasonable stats in offense. To shorten the move's explanation, it doubles the damage input and speed in exchange of losing bulk. One click, the damage is doubled, and you outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. This trait of the move allows stuff like Primal Ground to get past Fur Coat Giratina by using special coverage, or just simply overpower it.

Many checks such as Prankster Haze have been developed, and the newly introduced move called Spectral Thief seemed to alleviate this issue. But they are sometimes not enough to stop sweepers.

Prankster Haze is forced to spam Haze until the setup sweeper decides to stop spamming Shell Smash and switch to something else, and this ends up messing up the momentum itself. Even Destiny Bond is sometimes not enough, especially against hyper-offensive teams with 3-4 different 'mons with access to Shell Smash.

Spectral Thief is a fantastic move that can be, or more precisely, should be stapled into most support 'mons to reduce their passivity. However, according to my experience, supports' movesets are in this structure:

- Recovery
- Switching moves
- Anti-setup
- Hazards or its control (Stealth Rock or Defog)

Recovery is self-explantory. Switching moves is crucially important in any BH teams because they need their wallbreakers / sweepers to safely switch in. But what about two other moveslots?

If you choose Haze for Anti-setup, you become VERY passive.
If you choose Topsy-Tursy or Encore, you become setup fodder for APS user.
If you choose Hazards as 4th moveslot, you become totally passive to Magic Bounce user.
If you choose Core Enforcer, you can stop PH users but someone has to die next turn after setup from APS.
If you choose Destiny Bond to stop out-of-control sweeper... I won't say how passive that is.

The truth is, due to setup-spams, support 'mons have hard time fitting anything into their slot. Even RegenVest users are forced to run Spectral Thief to stop Shell Smash.

I believe this is somewhat similar phenomenon as when Water Bubble existed, Water Absorb was chosen to stop the madness. Although Spectral Thief is much more viable outsides checking APS user (such as best physical Ghost-type coverage for sweepers), it is very irrelevant move to support 'mons outsides stealing potential APS boost. I won't describe a move causing other 'mons to sacrifice their moveslot to check it, as healthy.

2. Shell Smash can be stapled into almost anything.
If we take a quick look at PS!,

(Ordered from highest BST if you couldn't tell. Excluded Zygarde-C and Giratina due to their better viability as support archetype.)
View attachment 80049
View attachment 80051
View attachment 80052

I will not go further down the list.

ALL OF THESE MONS, can run Shell Smash, and make decent outcome. Some are outclassed by others, but they can all be potentially empowered enough to oppress the stall team.

Shell Smash just comes out of nowhere among these 'mons. They can just abuse their stats with +2 boost to break through anything, and this thing became a problem this gen due to
Power Trip that no one is immune to,
Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam that goes through Unaware and Sturdy.

Life is harsh. You never know when they might pull out Shell Smash and force you to sacrifice a teammate or send Imposter or Prankster with Destiny Bond.

3. Just like how all banned abilities are, Imposter is NOT safe from this.
Imposter doesn't like taking CFZ's.
Water Bubble hurts as well.

I will keep this short.

Shell Smash drops defensive stats and it completely nullifies the Eviolite boost from Imposter Chansey, and it is risked of losing significant portion of its health or even being OHKO'ed. Even with no-EV limits, one can simply adjust the investment to OHKO its own Imposter after the boost.

Unburden + White Herb + Imprison makes Imposter useless unless you need a struggle damage to stop sweeper as a last-ditch method.

Unburden + 4x weakness move (such as Shell Smash + Focus Sash Kartana with Sacred Fire, not viable but as example) just dispatches Imposter immediately.

If Imposter revenge kills with Scarf, the next check with unique typing that can take all moves from sweeper or Unaware + Spectral Theif will get you.

Also, don't forget APS often carries Judgment and Multi-Attack.



I am aware that majority of you are not enthused in looking over Shell Smash into too much depth, but this is what I think. I am open-hearted and ready to take any criticisms and counter-arguments.
Shell Smash is a powerful move, but when used with no skill it backfires. Most stuff that uses Shell Smash (from what I have seen) tends to be fast, and that means slow users of Spectral Thief can steal the stats and start killing the opponent after they are outspeeded. Bonus points if you steal the stats on the turn they set up.
Spectral Thief can be run on everything too, and can bypass its only "weak" spot (not hitting Normal) by running Normalize. One can only imagine the face of the opponent when a boosted Regigigas/Arceus is hit by Spectral Thief.
But back to Shell Smash. Max Evs on everything give most set up sweepers an hard time OKHOing something excluding SE hits. Non-Simple hit just as hard as Stakeout or Tinted Lens without actually having you to set up, as long as you know how to use the abilities. Simple is hard to imposter proof.
Sooo, it's a mixed bag. You definitely need to prepare to that, but then it's not particularly overpowered given Unaware, Prankster and Scarf Imposter.
 
Shell Smash is a powerful move, but when used with no skill it backfires. Most stuff that uses Shell Smash (from what I have seen) tends to be fast, and that means slow users of Spectral Thief can steal the stats and start killing the opponent after they are outspeeded. Bonus points if you steal the stats on the turn they set up.
Spectral Thief can be run on everything too, and can bypass its only "weak" spot (not hitting Normal) by running Normalize. One can only imagine the face of the opponent when a boosted Regigigas/Arceus is hit by Spectral Thief.
But back to Shell Smash. Max Evs on everything give most set up sweepers an hard time OKHOing something excluding SE hits. Non-Simple hit just as hard as Stakeout or Tinted Lens without actually having you to set up, as long as you know how to use the abilities. Simple is hard to imposter proof.
Sooo, it's a mixed bag. You definitely need to prepare to that, but then it's not particularly overpowered given Unaware, Prankster and Scarf Imposter.
,,
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-555247203

this is a garbage team that I threw together in like 5 minutes. aps xurk is actually really bad but it still wins games. this team should not be winning battles at 1650.

the thing with aps is that it isn't as easy to stop as you're making it out to be. all the things you mentioned (unaware, prankster, scarf imposter) lose to some aps users (in order: sungeist, super effective stuff, spooky plate gengar) making it impossible to beat all the aps users with just one mon. also scarf imposter is bad.

on spectral thief: it's honestly the best way to deal with setup imo because it only takes a moveslot, not an ability slot. still tho using it on every single defensive mon is dumb and normals are still immune. true you can use normalize, but are you really going to use normalize spectral thief just for normal aps users? sit down and take some time to think about it.

my way of dealing with aps is prankster haze mega slowbro. it does ok against aps because it can usually switch in on smashes and haze away the stats but it literally can't do anything outside that besides eating random v-creates. it's forced to run haze, recovery, destiny bond (in case something catches it with moongeist) and whirlwind so opponents can't just sit there spamming smash. it can't even run u-turn!

shell smash might not be broken but it is incredibly matchup based. you're forced to bring a check for it, and even then your check can just have a bad matchup against the opposing aps user(s), die, and cause you to just lose. ngl i've seen some pretty cool aps teams in the past (like watatatata and his infamous prankster destiny bond kartana), but i don't think that the creativity aps teams can use justifies the insane preparation every team needs for it.

edit: here's a replay against a more competent opponent http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-555366947. they brought a prankster hazer but it got overwhelmed very quickly and there was just nothing they could do. this isn't what a high ladder bh match should look like.
 
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To be fair, Silver_Lucario42 , your opponent in that replay was only 1390. So it was less of a case of "shouldn't be winning at 1650" and more "shouldn't be getting paired with that guy at 1650".


Anyway, I'm neutral on Shell Smash. I don't like the move, but it has inherent flaws and backfire potential. And downright risky to use on non-APS without Psychic Terrain support. Also, I see Spectral Thief to be a pretty poor way to deal with it since, at least spamming it. It works pretty good against Smash, yeah, but a passive user of Spectral isn't much of a threat. And if the opponent is using Tail Glow or Quiver Dance and can hit reasonably hard unboosted, the Spectral Thief user is going to struggle if its only doing chip damage. For example, Triage Ray can hit hard enough to make most walls use a recover move after Spectral Thief, at which point it can simply boost again. I mean, what is something like MAudino or Registeel going to do with those special attack boosts anyway?

Phazing is a good solution to APS, however. Especially with hazards up. APS can only block Whirlwind with Magic Coat, which they generally don't want to run. You can also Perish Song an APS user, preventing any sort of sweep no matter what. Neither of them kills the APS user directly, but they buy time for the victim of APS, which is something offensive teams and APS mons usually don't want to happen.
 
,,
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-555247203

this is a garbage team that I threw together in like 5 minutes. aps xurk is actually really bad but it still wins games. this team should not be winning battles at 1650.

the thing with aps is that it isn't as easy to stop as you're making it out to be. all the things you mentioned (unaware, prankster, scarf imposter) lose to some aps users (in order: sungeist, super effective stuff, spooky plate gengar) making it impossible to beat all the aps users with just one mon. also scarf imposter is bad.

on spectral thief: it's honestly the best way to deal with setup imo because it only takes a moveslot, not an ability slot. still tho using it on every single defensive mon is dumb and normals are still immune. true you can use normalize, but are you really going to use normalize spectral thief just for normal aps users? sit down and take some time to think about it.

my way of dealing with aps is prankster haze mega slowbro. it does ok against aps because it can usually switch in on smashes and haze away the stats but it literally can't do anything outside that besides eating random v-creates. it's forced to run haze, recovery, destiny bond (in case something catches it with moongeist) and whirlwind so opponents can't just sit there spamming smash. it can't even run u-turn!

shell smash might not be broken but it is incredibly matchup based. you're forced to bring a check for it, and even then your check can just have a bad matchup against the opposing aps user (s), die, and cause you to just lose. ngl i've seen some pretty cool aps teams in the past (like watatatata and his infamous prankster destiny bond kartana), but i don't think that the creativity aps teams can use justifies the insane preparation every team needs for it.
You were at 1650. Your opponent was at less than 1400 (he stayed in on taunted Giratina that only had non-attacking moves). You are in the range of "might backfire".
Second, this is BH. Every BH worth Pokemon is very likely to have at least 2 sets and they have different answers. Just because APS or Shell Smash falls in this category it doesn't mean they are unhealthy.
I agree, scarf Imposter is bad, but it still countersweep if the opponent isn't imposterproof.
Normalize is also extremely niche, but if your team has extreme trouble in dealing with normal type setup sweepers, then it's still an option. You can also switch to a ghost and gain momentum.
Haze and Destiny Bond also are quite redundant. They both stop setup, as long as the opponent isn't using priority.
I forgot to mention Mold Breaker as an offensive answer to APS. Good luck surviving at -1 fakespeed from Regigigas. No sash will save you. And Sucker Punch for Gengar.
And Spectral Thief is an offensive move. You don't have to run it on walls, PH Regigigas has good coverage with Facade.
I think I covered everything I had in mind.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
We've had a significant period of cooldown and everything seems to be relatively settled down, so I am formally opening the floor for discussing the next possible suspect. As mentioned in previous posts, I would only bring up suspects for unbans (... unsuspects? antisuspects? u-suspects... ok) when there's a relatively quiet period of time and I have not seen much evidence for APS or anything else requiring suspects, so I think it is a good time to talk about another one. Going over the banlist again, I feel that there is potential for a "u-suspect" especially in the current climate and will potentially help solve a lot of problems we have in the tier. Therefore, I am beginning a suspect test on Wonder Guard. With the rise in sunsteel and moongeist, as well as Thousand Arrows, effectively making it so that no mon has 0 weaknesses anymore, and the fact that it should be a great way to handle APS and ates, I think it is a good time to review its place in BH. My initial plans for the suspect is for it to begin tomorrow and end on April 15. This will likely be a suspect similar to CFZ, i.e. less demanding than the Water Bubble suspect because I feel that this is an issue that will fundamentally change the entire ladder, and all of the BH playerbase should get an active voice in this suspect. I will release a thread with the official details tomorrow describing the B value and COIL.

You may begin discussion on the matter now.
 
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Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
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Honestly its about time, with threats such as Tinted Lens Primal Groudon, Poison Heal Primal Kyogre, and APS Mega Mewtwo Y dominating the metagame, we need Wonder Guard to help balance these threats out (Imposter is not enough guys). Im so tired with facing all these threats and I wanna use Alolan-Muk viably. I am totally voting to Unban Wonder Guard.

While we are at it, lets allow 6 Shadow Tag teams. If one user is not broken, then all six shouldn't be as well.
 
I really don't see why wonder guard is banned, and should be unbanned.
The ban on wonder guard makes sense in AAA, but not in BH. In BH, pokemon can run any move they want, allowing your wonder guard pokemon to be easily destroyed at any time. Because of this, wonder guard, is not only balanced, but completely inferior to running other defensive abilities like fur coat or magic bounce. Additionally, there is very little reason to use wonder guard over the omniprescent sturdy shedinja, the most common and best pokemon in the meta. Sturdy Shedinja serves the same role as wonder guard, but without the risk of being ohkoed by se coverage, which can be run on literally any pokemon.

tl;dr wonder guard is horrible, no one will even use it once its unbanned except low ladder scrubs like flint
 
After the ev limit removal almost everything already has to rely on SE to deal meaningful damage;
Edit: those who don't are basically what we consider the borderline broken setup sweepers like aps and normalph and gengar which isnt even affected by WG.
Releasing wonder guard is a blanket nerf to those, as well as everything reliant on spectral thief, core enforcer and uturn, the most centralizing moves in the tier.
The last time such a blanket check to everything existed was not long ago and my opinion is
wonder guard is at least as uncompetitive as innards out
 
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I think this is a fantastic idea and I commend Flint for overcoming his inherent tendency toward corruption and making a powerful statement to revolutionize the Balanced Hackmons metagame. Let me outline several reasons why Wonder Guard should be unbanned.
  • Wonder Guard does not fulfill the "Splashable"ity requirement outlined in the OP of this thread, as Wonder Guard Amaura is easily defeated by any Steel-, Fighting-, Water-, Rock-, Ground-, or Grass-type attacks. Even the number of weaknesses is irrelevant; in spite of its supposedly excellent defensive typing, Wonder Guard Mudkip is easily defeated by Freeze Dry users.
  • If Wonder Guard is unbanned, we can also unban OHKO moves, allowing for more diversity within the BH metagame.
  • Wonder Guard is only as powerful as Prankster Destiny Bond or Refrigerate Kyurem-B's Explosion. As you can see in this replay from the Paleozoic Era, Wonder Guard users are not even powerful enough to defeat a team of two Pokemon.
  • Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile, and others are already allowed to use banned abilities. Therefore, Shedinja should be able to use Wonder Guard as well. I do not care if other Pokemon are able to as long as this incredibly important rule is made consistent.
  • Only a select few Pokemon can use Wonder Guard effectively, and we should look at these specific Pokemon, such as Bulbasaur, Ivysaur, Venusaur, Charmander, Charmeleon, Charizard, Squirtle, Wartortle, Blastoise, and a few others, for bans instead.
First, I think we should ban Imposter and Sturdy Shedinja, however.
 
I think this is a fantastic idea and I commend Flint for overcoming his inherent tendency toward corruption and making a powerful statement to revolutionize the Balanced Hackmons metagame. Let me outline several reasons why Wonder Guard should be unbanned.
  • Wonder Guard does not fulfill the "Splashable"ity requirement outlined in the OP of this thread, as Wonder Guard Amaura is easily defeated by any Steel-, Fighting-, Water-, Rock-, Ground-, or Grass-type attacks. Even the number of weaknesses is irrelevant; in spite of its supposedly excellent defensive typing, Wonder Guard Mudkip is easily defeated by Freeze Dry users.
  • If Wonder Guard is unbanned, we can also unban OHKO moves, allowing for more diversity within the BH metagame.
  • Wonder Guard is only as powerful as Prankster Destiny Bond or Refrigerate Kyurem-B's Explosion. As you can see in this replay from the Paleozoic Era, Wonder Guard users are not even powerful enough to defeat a team of two Pokemon.
  • Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile, and others are already allowed to use banned abilities. Therefore, Shedinja should be able to use Wonder Guard as well. I do not care if other Pokemon are able to as long as this incredibly important rule is made consistent.
  • Only a select few Pokemon can use Wonder Guard effectively, and we should look at these specific Pokemon, such as Bulbasaur, Ivysaur, Venusaur, Charmander, Charmeleon, Charizard, Squirtle, Wartortle, Blastoise, and a few others, for bans instead.
First, I think we should ban Imposter and Sturdy Shedinja, however.
Poison heal and imposter will never be banned just like landorus in ou, groudon in ubers, and trump
 
Poison heal and imposter will never be banned just like landorus in ou, groudon in ubers, and trump
What in the blazes does trump have to do with Balanced Hackmons?

Anyhow, unbanning wonder-guard is interesting - but I don't know if now is the right time to do it. I feel fat-mons are already over-represented in the meta-game and although the threat of APS is always there - there are currently checks to it without the need to resort to wonder-guard. I suppose my stance will change during the suspect after we get a bit of testing done, but right now I feel the move towards wonder-guard is not the way-to-go.

e: bamboozled yet again
 
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What in the blazes does trump have to do with Balanced Hackmons?

Anyhow, unbanning wonder-guard is interesting - but I don't know if now is the right time to do it. I feel fat-mons are already over-represented in the meta-game and although the threat of APS is always there - there are currently checks to it without the need to resort to wonder-guard. I suppose my stance will change during the suspect after we get a bit of testing done, but right now I feel the move towards wonder-guard is not the way-to-go.
even today, no one is bringing up stealth rock suspect in ou. and that one is probably even more politically correct than anything in bh including ph, imposter and shed
 
This is a great idea. Offense is the most cancerous play style and this should neuter it enough! Plus it'd finally allow awesome Pokemon such as Surskit and Relic Song Meloetta become top tier threats! Plus I'd finally be able to make my Splash stall team viable.

Can we unban Shadow Tag next? After all, Anchor Shot is the same thing basically.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Interesting ability.
I do not deny that this metagame will be fun with Wonder Guard, but I want to question if it it is healthy for metagame.

Ability Ban:
An Ability should be considered for ban based on:
  • "Splashable"ility:
    Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
  • Extreme Augmentation:
    The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

E4 Flint
Wonder Guard can be slapped into anyone and it violates our philosophy on banning slappable abilities. Both Primals has 2 weakness and carry Wonder Guard to set up with their phenomenal bulk and sweep any teams that are not specifically prepared for this, and all teams will have to carry Sungeist and 1k Arrows to stop Air Balloon Power Trip Drapion shenanigans.

If I were to make counterargument to E4 Flint 's argument,

APS is sufficiently dealt with removal of EV limitations and Prankster. No more easy OHKO.
-ate users are walled by Steel-types without coverage and almost always loses 1v1 on Imposter.
But Wonder Guard?
Improofing is easily done with Judgment with certain plate. If I were to explain more,

In regular meta, Gengar has to run Secret Sword and Boomburst to keep Imposter from hurting itself.
But with Wonder Guard, everyone becomes very self-restrained Imposter and can freely set up in front of anything. For example, Wonder Guard Arceus can run Boomburst / Moongeist Beam / Fist Plate Judgment / Set up move to demolish any unprepared teams and easily eliminate Imposter.

Now, if Wonder Guard is unbanned, in every team preview, people will try to eliminate Wonder Guard user or prepare for them instead of paying much attention to the rest of the team.

Sorry for demanding tone, but:
Everyone, lets not make this metagame a question of "Which of your 'mons carry Wonder Guard?"
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
are you guys fucking crazy? unban wonder guard? WONDER GUARD?!?!?!? i get its a good way to balance out a lot of offensive mons that runs rampant...but we don't even have the best counter in the meta anymore; shadow tag perish trap. wonderguard NEEDS shadow tag to make it manageable. shadow tag helps mons get rid of common stall cores wonder guard creates. and im glad to see the higher ups are finally thinking about the more skillful players. can we look at chatter next? i find it retarded such a good move is hindered because people are too wimpy to test their luck vs it. quite frankly if you cant hit through chatter, you should be playing chess instead.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
are you guys fucking crazy? unban wonder guard? WONDER GUARD?!?!?!? i get its a good way to balance out a lot of offensive mons that runs rampant...but we don't even have the best counter in the meta anymore; shadow tag perish trap. wonderguard NEEDS shadow tag to make it manageable. shadow tag helps mons get rid of common stall cores wonder guard creates. and im glad to see the higher ups are finally thinking about the more skillful players. can we look at chatter next? i find it retarded such a good move is hindered because people are too wimpy to test their luck vs it. quite frankly if you cant hit through chatter, you should be playing chess instead.
That is why I have a thought this is April fools event or some sort.

Everything will be centered around Wonder Guard user, and Spectral Thief will become absolutely useless, it can no longer stop the setup.
 
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