BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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Don't forget Skill Swap and Entrainment can stop the strategy. Having a Mega-Gengar with Entrainment Normalize supported by Sticky Web means the Comatose user has to be both faster than Timid Mega Gengar and carrying a Choice Scarf.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from the wiki, "Comatose cannot be replaced with Skill Swap or Entrainment, or copied by Role Play or Trace, and also cannot be suppressed with Gastro Acid." Therefore this common strategy may not be a check to be considered.

Also adding that the relatively recently founded set, Flame Orb Quick Feet Pokemon can have some possibility of outspeeding oponent's Comaphazer (Non-scarf Deo-S). Although this may not be the case when they have scarf mons with a higher base speed stat than the quick feet mon.
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from the wiki, "Comatose cannot be replaced with Skill Swap or Entrainment, or copied by Role Play or Trace, and also cannot be suppressed with Gastro Acid." Therefore this common strategy may not be a check to be considered.

Also adding that the relatively recently founded set, Flame Orb Quick Feet Pokemon can have some possibility of outspeeding oponent's Comaphazer (Non-scarf Deo-S). Although this may not be the case when they have scarf mons with a higher base speed stat than the quick feet mon.
Why use flame orb quick feet instead of Speed Boost? I know if it is a Normal Type with Facade, and getting Status Immunity, but you are still taking damage, and both require 1 turn before Activation. Speed Boost allows you to hold any item, and it allows you to always out speed with enough boosts. It also works on Special Attackers and Support Pokémon.

Maybe having a Deooxy-Speed with substitute, Imprison, Sleep Talk, Transform, Block Pokémon is the best counter.
You Imprison to disable Sleep Talk, you Substitute on the Switch, then you Block as they break the Substitute, and then Transform to disable the newly trapped opponent, guaranteeing they struggle to death. Deoxys-Speed means you won't be needing Speed Boost as much, and can have any ability
 
Why use flame orb quick feet instead of Speed Boost? I know if it is a Normal Type with Facade, and getting Status Immunity, but you are still taking damage, and both require 1 turn before Activation. Speed Boost allows you to hold any item, and it allows you to always outspeed with enough boosts. It also works on Special Attackers and Support Pokémon.
First of all, I have no personal experience of using Quick Feet as I personally don't like the damage from burn, although it is nerfed this gen. However, I saw it in an RMT on the forum, and saw a few on the ladder, and therefore was only posting in the above reply to complement your post, in addition to my correction of Entrainment vs Comatose mechanics (which is why in first place I post at all).
Comparing with speed boost, both are niche and not-top-notched ability in BH (you would agree with me that there are tons of better thing to run independent of what role this mon is gonna do in general), but in the very specific scenario in countering Comaphaze: there is no protect turn to let you get your speed boost if your opponent uses whirlwind, while quick feet can get activated earlier in game, just like how we safely activate poison heal in last gen (and this gen too although it has a decrease in usage due to the environment).

Edit: Oh yeah thx for reminding me that Quick Feet is semi imposter proof due to winning speed tie. (Although if u want to utilize this you cannot put it with toxic spikes team) Again, as I mentioned already that "they have scarf mons with a higher base speed stat than the quick feet mon", or the speed boost mon alike.
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so I would like to talk about a pretty stupid strategy that I really feel does not belong in the current meta (and no its not ComaPhazing, its even more dumb then that...)



Ok so I decided to dabble into using Assist Spam after reading Eien's post here. After playing quite of few matches on the ladder and against quite a few competent players with this "strategy", I grew convinced that it was pretty unhealthy and required very minimal skill to use properly. Here is the team I had built to demonstrate:



Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Destiny Bond
- Copycat
- Trick

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Destiny Bond
- Copycat
- Trick

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Assist
- Catastropika
- Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike
- Copycat

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Harvest
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt
- Oceanic Operetta
- Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike
- Guardian of Alola

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Comatose
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
- Copycat
- Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- King's Shield
- Whirlwind
- Transform


So yes this team does abuse CFZs which are likely to be banned in the incoming days, but Assist Spam can still function without these moves through other means (usually by carrying either two Imposter Chanseys or ComaPhazers. Yes Dark-types such as Yveltal and Mega Gyarados and priority blocking abilities can block out Prankster Assist, however, the other team members (usually by using the Scarf Groudon or the ComaPhazer). Besides these means, it can be extremely difficult to actually counterplay this archetype and I still feel it is as bad as it was in Gen 6. Here are some replays demonstrating this:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-517065831
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-516268528
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-516678874
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-516141544
Btw here is another variant of the team if CFZs do get banned:



Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Destiny Bond
- Copycat
- Trick

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Destiny Bond
- Copycat
- Trick

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Assist
- Trick
- Sleep Talk
- Copycat

Xerneas @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nature Power
- Copycat
- Sleep Talk
- Switcheroo

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Comatose
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
- Copycat
- Assist

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- King's Shield
- Whirlwind
- Transform


Basically pertains same concept, but uses Specs Xerneas to break past Zygarde-C instead of Mega Mewtwo Y.

I really implore those of you who are uncertain about the topic to see for yourselves how toxic this strategy can be. Peace out :)
 
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OM! fsk Speed boosts cost you a moveslot (protect) and a turn of set up, which can easily give the opponent a free switch if they predict correctly which makes it not ideal for revenge killing.
Quick feet also outspeeds imposter Chansey and has an immunity to sleep which can easily give it an edge over speed boost for set up sweeper (rRayquaza is the most common example since owing easily heals the burn damage).

Also scarfed deoxys speed is very much a thing when talking about comaphaze and can outspeed a lot of set up sweepers and other scarf / quick feet mon, in this case it can easily outspeed non scarf deoxys.


For the case of assist spam, I'll write more when I'll have the time (and enough network to look at the replay) but correct me if I'm wrong, I doubt you got the same insane results aesf and many others got last gen. Zygarde, Grassy surge, Psysurge, Dazzling, Water Bubble, Buzzwole along with the general shift in meta are still a significant nerf that severely restrict the kind of build assist spam can have.
And in a team with z moves, comatose, thousand arrows and 3 primal Groudon. I don't really know if you can point at assist and say that it, and only it, is the broken element and should be banned. Especially when we're still at a point where people don't prepare for and don't expect the strategy (like I could make a similar post about contrary and that's pretty damn easy to use too).

What I'm trying to say is that while stuff like chatter, protean, water bubble or moody could always stay a step ahead of their respective counterplay, assist might find itself a bit limited.

When comatose was brought up I already thought people jumped on the ban train first before trying to find reasonable counterplay (which is why I argued that it wasn't broken even after achieving retarded results notice the past tense), but here this subject has barely been brought up so I just don't think we should jump to conclusions too quickly. Especially considering all the other, more important issues we already need to deal with.
 
OM! fsk Speed boosts cost you a moveslot (protect) and a turn of set up, which can easily give the opponent a free switch if they predict correctly which makes it not ideal for revenge killing.
Quick feet also outspeeds imposter Chansey and has an immunity to sleep which can easily give it an edge over speed boost for set up sweeper (rRayquaza is the most common example since owing easily heals the burn damage).
A couple of other advantages to quick feet are that the boost from speed cannot be stolen by a spectral thief user and it can be bluffed as Flare Boost or whatever it's called, or even just passed off as a random Facade pokemon whereas speed boost is overtly revealed to the opponent.
While we're on the topic of niche sets for checking comaphase, quick feet can be run alongside scarf to outspeed pretty much anything if they happen to be a toxic spikes variety although I think this would just strengthen the centralisation argument if anyone actually used it.

(Also I imagine the RMT fsk mentioned was of extremely high quality and posted by a most excellent user)
 
So, pretty much I should make edits that many Prankster and speed control sets can check Comaphaze, rather than balloon the post out by including every specific detail?
 

Electrolyte

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Don't forget Nature Power is not selected by Sleep Talk which is defaulted to Tri Attack in Pokémon Showdown and Psychic under Psychic Terrain.

This can make a Deoxys-A or S, as well as a Mewtwo-Y or X able to hit say Mega-Gengar, etc. for the KO if needed. I included Mewtwo-X because it uses Circle Throw, which Mega-Gengar is immune to. Sticky Web can ensure it hits with a STAB Terrain boosted Psychic first.

It also might be useful to include Flynium Z when carrying Mirror Move and Dragon Tail or Circle Throw.

Say you have a Comatose Mega Mewtwo-X with Sleep Talk, Circle Throw, Mirror Move, Nature Power / Copycat.

It switches in on Primal Groudon after your teammate has fallen to its STAB Ground moves. Being highly defensive, the Groudon doesn't predict you will Z-Mirror Move its own Ground move back at it, and gain +2 attack, KOing it in the process! The next turn they will wonder what ability you have and not realize you have a Comatose Pokémon.

Under Sticky Web and Psychic Surge / Terrain support, Nature Power can also allow Mewtwo-X to KO Pheremosa, etc.

Don't forget Skill Swap and Entrainment can stop the strategy. Having a Mega-Gengar with Entrainment Normalize supported by Sticky Web means the Comatose user has to be both faster than Timid Mega Gengar and carrying a Choice Scarf.

Also Protect/King's Shield + Speed Boost users can counter Comatose users. (If you will include Suction Cups, which is much less useful, Speed Boost doesn't seem out of the question). This is true due to the Baton Pass Clause, and because, unlike Contrary it doesn't require or limit the user to specific moves, and reduces the need for both Choice Scarf and Prankster especially for Taunt or Substitute.

So a Speed Booster whom outspends a foe after a Protect, or negates the Sticky Web speed reduction after a Protect, can outspeed the foe. Remember Protect doesn't just guarantee a Speed Boost, it stalls out a turn of Psychic Terrain.

A fast Speed Booster with a turn to stall is probably the best check besides Magic Bounce/Magic Guard/Regenerator Mimikyu.

Also, unless the Comatose user is a Dark type like Greninja, setting a different terrain down like Electric Surge or Grassy Surge can remove Psychic Terrain and allow for Priority moves, either forcing a switch or letting say Life Orb Grassy Surge Kartana use Bullet Punch.

Also, don't forget Unburden!

Simply using a Terrain activated Seed item (you switch in while a Terrain is up and get a stat boost), either during Psychic Surge on the foes team or your own Terrain like a Grassy Surge and suddenly your speed is doubled!
Using Recycle can also allow you to reuse Unburden.

For example Grassy Surge Kartana with Unburden and the Grassy Seed item. Now it boosts its Grass STAB, improves its Defense stat, heals 6.25% each turn, and Doubles its Speed. This also means instead of carrying Bullet Punch it can just use Power Whip, Sunsteel Strike, etc.

Lastly, ** what about Faster Mold Break users? Can't a Deoxys-Speed use Nuzzle on a Comatose PHazer if Mold Breaker bypasses the status immunity?

Lastly, Sleep Talk + Imprison on a faster or Prankster user is a sure fire counter. Imprison targets the user, not the foe, so it can work on Dark Types like Ash-Greninja, unlike Taunt-which is stopped.
I.e.
Chansey @ Eviolite
Prankster
Imprison
Transform
Sleep Talk / Spore / Taunt
Whirlwind / Block / Taunt Chanseys.

Could you imagine if Chansey used Imprison as a Comatose user switches in, and then used Transform the next turn? Outspeeding and out walling the other team?

Initially: Transform, Whirlwind, Substitute/ Spore, Wish/ King's Shield was a move set used for Imposter Chansey in case the foe was imposter proof (such as using Parting Shot to switch into Chansey as the faster foe used Substitute). Eventually when people began using Imprison, or just because of the Ability clause, Prankster became an ability implemented for setting up before transforming, and allowing Imprison + Transform + Spore + Recover/ Trap move sets to come to fruition.

These are an alternative for the Imposter Chanseys, in case the foe had a Substitute, Whirlwind would be used to bring another foe in, more common last gen.

Aside from the headache-inducing font, I also have some other areas of disagreement with this post.


As pointed out earlier, Skill Swap + Entrainment doesn't work, and even if it did, it's an unreliable strategy because Sticky Web is not always guaranteed, has little use otherwise, and doesn't stop Mega Ray.


Protect / King's Shield no longer protect against non-damaging phazing moves, and therefore cannot be used to stop entry hazards + Whirlwind comaphase. That said, Speed Boost is also a questionably viable ability in and of itself, as there are few users of the ability that can really take advantage of it, otherwise. Also, Speed Boost doesn't even stop most comaphasers anyway, as the most viable users of it are usually slow, tanky Pokemon like the Primals that won't be able to outspeed even the slowest common user of Comaphase, Mega Ray, after +1. So, a fast Speed Booster with a turn to stall is actually a horrible way to beat Comaphase.


Changing the terrain works, but remember that terrains besides Psychic so far have been questionably viable. Grassy Surge Kartana is one way, but LO is definitely not its best item, nor will Bullet Punch do nearly enough damage to any of the best Comaphasers in the meta.


Unburden is awful as well. Seed + Unburden + Terrain is already a multi-step, multi-Pokemon process that has absolutely no use otherwise and that is completely outclassed by other simple boosting sets (for instance, Psychic Seed + Unburden + Terrain is already outclassed by Simple Quiver Dance or Z-Conversion in terms of bulk, Speed, and power). For a soft check answer to Comaphase, you have to sacrifice two abilities, an item, and multiple moveslots as well, as you have to guarantee that your Unburden user will be able to OHKO the Comaphase user, which is not easy.

Also, Unburden is single-use and otherwise impossible to get up before you get phased out unless you run something gimmicky to the level of Unburden + Terrain. Because it is single-use, Unburden + Seed + Terrain will also be severely restricted (as if it weren't already so because of how outclassed it is) because you'll have to hold off on taking advantage of the strategy until the Comaphase user is taken down, OR run Recycle, which is again unreliable because you won't possibly be able to Recycle in time once the phasing starts.

Your Kartana set is cute, but you can't have Grassy Surge and Unburden at the same time. You could run Grassy Surge on another Pokemon, but do you really want to devote a third of your team to a strategy walled by every major physical wall in the game? Grassy Surge itself is bad because 1. Grass is bad offensively 2. Grass-types are bad all-around 3. Passive healing helps both players so there is no net benefit, and it could even be argued that you suffer more as bulky walls gain more healing to help them stall you out.


I'm not sure if Mold Breaker lets you status Comatose Pokemon. Intuitively by the way Comatose is worded, I'm inclined to guess that it doesn't, but that needs to be tested. Either way, Nuzzle is not an answer either as it only halves Speed. You also have to be faster; not even Deoxys-S can outspeed any of the common Choice Scarf Comaphasers. And, even with Nuzzle, you have to wait until one of your faster, threatening Pokemon are shuffled in, which could take a while depending on your luck.


Sleep Talk + Imprison on Prankster is an ok answer. But it doesn't work against Dark-types. (It does, sorry) And you sacrifice two otherwise useless moves on Pokemon that are already traditionally limited by 4MSS. With Transform it seems interesting, however, though keep in mind that there will be no "counterphasing" as you are limited to only 5 PP, and also keep in mind that this is only a check because the only thing you do is force them out. Stil, this is probably the best answer you've posted, as it actually has acceptable use elsewhere.



But yeah the main point is, it's a lot harder to beat Comaphase than it looks, simply because it is such a high-reward, low-risk strategy that puts an extra burden on teams to prepare for it with things that are fairly useless otherwise. That is what makes it bannable.
 
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Can't wrap my head around this "Innards Out balances the meta". The way I see it, it's uncompetitive in the Swagger/gen6 Assistdon sense. It's really not hard to make an IO set, and it's also not hard to use it. When you first face against a team with IO, you probably get caught off guard by the IO mon. So you lose a probably important mon, and how much effort does your opponent spend? From a less serious perspective, does anyone actually look back at their game and think "gee what a good game of BH, I really enjoyed losing one of my mons to IO because I couldn't have expected it?".

Now take the subsequent matchups against this team where you know an IO lurks. You send in that same mon, but now it's a simple RPS between IO switching in and IO not switching in. Should such simple RPS's really dictate the fate of an entire mon slot? Is this really why we play Pokemon? Do you guys like completing a single RPS that decides the game and then later go on to reflect "wow, what a complex game of pokemon"?

Prankster/DBond is another comparison I'd like to make. Prank/DB users generally have other roles and so it's reasonable to expect these mons to get worn down. There is hence grounds for stopping with priority like Espeed or newfangled Triage whatever and thus more reasonable to play around. So when you get more time to play around this stuff you don't get pissed that your opponent eliminated a mon of yours to no effort.

You guys are investing time in your lives to play this game. At least keep it enjoyable and not full of "lost this RPS, lost the game ig"
 
You can at least suspect that a mon is innards out because it has high hp. Anything with a base hp of 150 or more can viably run innards out, and there aren't that many of those in the meta that can pull off something else. The only ones I can think of are Slaking, Giratina, Blissy, Chansey and Zygarde-C. Wailord, Wobuffet, Guzzlord and Driffblim are all crap and I don't know why people are even using them, but they are. So just as you have to plan for a prankster Registeel using destiny bond against your sweeper, you have to plan that someone will switch out their innards out mon against your sweeper, and sufficiently weaken it to the point that the innards out damage doesn't KO. It's really not so bad, imho.
 
IMO Innards Out is just as suspect / QB-worthy as a few of the upcoming suspect stuff like water bubble or comatose for many of the reasons heisenerb mentioned. Having to keep in mind that the chansey / zygod / whatever else in the back can just switch into ur offensive Pokemon at any time and get a free KO is ridiculous. To say that Innards Out's role in the meta is to keep even more broken things in check is equally as ridiculous obviously. maybe ill edit this post later w/ some more thoughts cos im too tired to go in-depth without repeating other ppl's points atm
 

Electrolyte

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Yes it's true that it's mechanically similar to Prankster Destiny Bond, but there are more practical differences that make such a comparison not completely accurate. IO is much easier to guarantee because all you have to do is switch in, while Prankster DBond is much more roundabout - you have to live the first attack as you switch in but die to the next one and you have to hope that the opponent will continue attacking once they see you coming. Of course, this is fairly reliable as well at stopping setup sweepers, but not nearly to the level of Innards Out, and you often to have to lose a Pokemon to ensure that you switch in safely. Also, Innards Out is way less predictable, and offers active disincentive to not freely spam attacks, while Prankster DBond lets you freely spam until the Prankster user comes in. (This is all assuming player omniscience about sets, which I know is not always the case, but which I argue is neutrally advantageous to either side and thus not something necessary to consider.)

Stopping setup is only one small portion of Innards Out, however. Unlike other 1 v 1 trades which are mainly defensive strategies, IO can be used offensively to remove counters to your other Pokemon because it requires significantly less momentum and because you lose less momentum if it doesnt go the way you wanted. Thus, the viability of IO depends more on the effectiveness of its offensive application, which is more dependent on the stability of the meta than anything else. In a meta where there are plenty of centralizing of overpowered threats, the impact of IO becomes most invested in the exchange between those threats and their (often) very few counters, as the removal of one counter could often determine the game. The ability to almost guarantee the removal of what is likely an opponent's only counter to something like Comaphase or Water Bubble spam only inflates the brokenness of these strategies in the long run - you either have to carry multiple counters (warping teambuilding practices even further) or play super conservatively with the counters you can afford to bring (forcing you to sustain further damage as you have to play around the IO user first).

Again, Prankster Destiny bond can't do this because it requires a lot of momentum to activate. Pokemon needed to counter threatening strategies would most certainly not be kept in to deal with Prankster, considering that Prankster Pokemon can often inflict predictably similar roadblocks for those threat counters anyway. Simply having the presence of an IO user forces the opponent to play a lot more defensively against threats that are already hard enough to counter.


Because of this, however, I hesitate to say that Innards Out is inherently broken. With other major meta threats removed, I could see its offensive application diminished in impact once the most powerful things are no longer as powerful, and I think it could even see its defensive application become useful to deter rampant offense. I think it would be better to suspect things that are more confirmed as inherently overpowered first, and then check back to see if contextually broken things like IO are still broken.
 
Having both used and faced against Innards Out users, I can safely say that it's far too splashable for its own good. Against a clever (or crazy, like me) team, it is incredibly hard to guess if Innards Out even exists. And that's because...

You can at least suspect that a mon is innards out because it has high hp. Anything with a base hp of 150 or more can viably run innards out, and there aren't that many of those in the meta that can pull off something else. The only ones I can think of are Slaking, Giratina, Blissey, Chansey and Zygarde-C. Wailord, Wobuffet, Guzzlord and Drifblim are all crap and I don't know why people are even using them, but they are. So just as you have to plan for a prankster Registeel using destiny bond against your sweeper, you have to plan that someone will switch out their innards out mon against your sweeper, and sufficiently weaken it to the point that the innards out damage doesn't KO. It's really not so bad, imho.
...This is not exactly true. Aside from Drifblim and Wobuffet, who are just bad, all of these Pokémon have at least one other set. (Even Wailord, who can choose to use Impostor instead as a knock-off Blissey/Chansey) Guzzlord, despite having bad defenses, can run a Fur Coat/Unaware set pretty decently, to the point that it can take on a Primal Groudon that lacks Ice coverage. (And even then, it can take a hit or two) And the other users have at the very least several sets they can use to trick opponents. If you guess wrong about Innards Out, that Slaking, Giratina or Zygarde-C will let you know that you messed up.

Furthermore, the Innards Out line is further down than that. Even something as low as 100 Base HP can eliminate most potential sweepers just by being KOed from full health. ...And this is not counting any other damage, where this becomes really nonsense as an ability.

Let's take Mega Mewtwo Y. It is an incredibly scary sweeper when set up. You'll want to OHKO it as soon as possible. But if you lack Pin Missile, this strategy begins to have incredibly powerful merit. First, you set up with Shell Smash. Then, Mewtwo goes on a killing spree until it is KOed. Then... the surprise happens, and the opponent finds themselves either nearly KOed, or outright KOed from the damage Mewtwo has done to whatever is in, plus any damage it did to any other Pokémon. It can even block Fake Out with Spiky Shield, and it doesn't even give this Mewtwo away!

...And this is on top of Dazzling being the most common set, meaning they'll be wary of using Extreme Speed on the Mewtwo. Needless to say, Innards Out results in a bunch of stupid occurrences that stops many things cold, broken or not broken.

Also, you can't really weaken an Innards Out Chansey to the point that it won't OHKO something with guts damage. It's either being OHKOed, or 3HKOed, disregarding incredibly powerful Special Attacks.

To illustrate this point, let's take Beat Up Ash-Greninja, which is a good move choice to silence Deoxys-A spam. The first hit does 75% to an Innards Out Chansey. The next hit needs to come from another Chansey's attack in order to NOT KO it. The fact you need to go this far to deal with an Innards Out Chansey is utterly ridiculous, and shows how dumb it really is to play around. (and the fact that it works in the first place)

And while Prankster Destiny Bond can be beaten with Priority (or just Taunt and Spiky Shield), Innards Out isn't so simple, requiring a ton of thought to merely eliminate it without any causalities. While it's not on the level of Water Bubble, which simply sweeps everything under the bus without Water Absorb, it isn't too fun to face something that can take out something for its own (probably useless) life. The best you can do is redirect it to something you care about the least, but this is still a 1v1 trade, and possibly with hazards in the mix, too.
It's certainly worth a suspect down the line, but not before eliminating some of the more broken stuff from BH...
 
Having both used and faced against Innards Out users, I can safely say that it's far too splashable for its own good. Against a clever (or crazy, like me) team, it is incredibly hard to guess if Innards Out even exists. And that's because...



...This is not exactly true. Aside from Drifblim and Wobuffet, who are just bad, all of these Pokémon have at least one other set. (Even Wailord, who can choose to use Impostor instead as a knock-off Blissey/Chansey) Guzzlord, despite having bad defenses, can run a Fur Coat/Unaware set pretty decently, to the point that it can take on a Primal Groudon that lacks Ice coverage. (And even then, it can take a hit or two) And the other users have at the very least several sets they can use to trick opponents. If you guess wrong about Innards Out, that Slaking, Giratina or Zygarde-C will let you know that you messed up.

Furthermore, the Innards Out line is further down than that. Even something as low as 100 Base HP can eliminate most potential sweepers just by being KOed from full health. ...And this is not counting any other damage, where this becomes really nonsense as an ability.

Let's take Mega Mewtwo Y. It is an incredibly scary sweeper when set up. You'll want to OHKO it as soon as possible. But if you lack Pin Missile, this strategy begins to have incredibly powerful merit. First, you set up with Shell Smash. Then, Mewtwo goes on a killing spree until it is KOed. Then... the surprise happens, and the opponent finds themselves either nearly KOed, or outright KOed from the damage Mewtwo has done to whatever is in, plus any damage it did to any other Pokémon. It can even block Fake Out with Spiky Shield, and it doesn't even give this Mewtwo away!

...And this is on top of Dazzling being the most common set, meaning they'll be wary of using Extreme Speed on the Mewtwo. Needless to say, Innards Out results in a bunch of stupid occurrences that stops many things cold, broken or not broken.

Also, you can't really weaken an Innards Out Chansey to the point that it won't OHKO something with guts damage. It's either being OHKOed, or 3HKOed, disregarding incredibly powerful Special Attacks.

To illustrate this point, let's take Beat Up Ash-Greninja, which is a good move choice to silence Deoxys-A spam. The first hit does 75% to an Innards Out Chansey. The next hit needs to come from another Chansey's attack in order to NOT KO it. The fact you need to go this far to deal with an Innards Out Chansey is utterly ridiculous, and shows how dumb it really is to play around. (and the fact that it works in the first place)

And while Prankster Destiny Bond can be beaten with Priority (or just Taunt and Spiky Shield), Innards Out isn't so simple, requiring a ton of thought to merely eliminate it without any causalities. While it's not on the level of Water Bubble, which simply sweeps everything under the bus without Water Absorb, it isn't too fun to face something that can take out something for its own (probably useless) life. The best you can do is redirect it to something you care about the least, but this is still a 1v1 trade, and possibly with hazards in the mix, too.
It's certainly worth a suspect down the line, but not before eliminating some of the more broken stuff from BH...
Well there are some tactics to circumvent Innards Out that works. Magic Guard is a clear shut up because Innards Out isn't an attack. Aerodactyl enjoys running it because of stab Head Smash (and it really hurts, life orb is enough to OHKO pogre). Firing a slow Core Enforcer also deals with that. Or Normalize Gengar. Or sadly comaphazers (not dragon-throw). Then you can go down to weird and obscure tactics like team based Magnet Pull + Color Change. Or Perish Song Soundproof trappers. Or False Swipe + Passive Damage. Or tricking a Focus Sash and hitting twice. Shedinja can use Infestation and Endeavor and win. Max hp Zygarde at full health with Stealth Rocks up can survive even blissey at 87,5%.
Ok, just 3, maybe 4 of them are usable in practice, but sweeping with Zygarde is totally possible with proper team support.
It's not easy, but you can run a team "Innards Out proof", just like we have teams "Water Bubble proof". We either suspect it or keep it and accept to either live knowing to play 5v5 games or get your team to deal with that.
 
As I see it in the one for one trade realm...

Innards Out

Pros

-Splashable on anything with reasonable amount of HP.
-Can potentially one-shot an offensive sweeper before they can react.
-Hard to see coming as most users have alternative sets, such as Imposter/Fur Coat Chansey
-Bypasses Substitute

Cons

-Takes an ability slot
-Useless on low HP Pokemon
-Must run minimal defenses for maximum effectiveness
-Pokemon must stay healthy otherwise Innards Out does little damage
-Practically useless against stall
-Blocked by Magic Guard
-Disabled by ability removal, such as Entrainment or Core Enforcer
-Offensive users can be copied by Imposter, which can be quite terrifying to deal with whether you beat them or not.


Prankster Destiny Bond

Pros

-Splashable on potentially anything
-Can catch sweepers off-guard who expect an easy KO
-Pairs well with Focus Sash
-Prankster offers a lot of utility and a huge variety of sets, meaning even if the opponent knows you're Prankster, they don't know if you have Destiny Bond
-Can force safe switches (Destiny Bond > slow U-Turn)
-Can be used for mind games after being discovered
-Bypasses Substitute
-Functions in Psychic Terrain and against Dazzling Majesty.

Cons

-Takes an ability slot
-Takes a move slot
-Can be out-prioritized
-User may not be able to switch into a powerful sweeper without Focus Sash
-Shut down by Taunt
-Hampered by ability removal, such as Entrainment or Core Enforcer
-Not very effective against stall


Explosion

Pros

-Very rare, therefore unexpected
-Can destroy walls and offensive Pokemon alike
-What survives is often crippled
-Highest base power move in the game
-Pairs somewhat well with Focus Sash
-Boosted by -ate and Galvanize. (Should we call the four Galvan-ates?)
-Doesn't care about Innards Out or Prankster Destiny Bond

Cons

-Takes a move slot
-Limited to powerful, physical attackers
-Best suited to STAB users
-Even more best suited to Galvan-ates, so often takes an ability slot
-Resistant Pokemon might survive, sometimes even take little damage if running the right set.
-Normal and Electric Explosion have immunities
-No room for error
-Suicidal Imposters are a big risk
-Damage reduced by burn
-Blocked by Substitute and Protect-esque moves.


By my analysis, Innards Out doesn't seem particularly broken, just the current flavor of the month and probably the easiest to use. I feel like it has a lower skill floor, but also a lower skill ceiling since the restrictions on its defenses and HP severely limit its potential outside of suicide.
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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I don't want to get into a discussion about Innards Out yet, but I will say that please do not use "but it is easily checked by Innards [pokemon]" as any kind of justification for anything.

There's a few other things I'd like to talk about, namely Water Bubble and Comatose Phazing. The next suspect will be on Water Bubble, for which I may or may not post my thoughts on later.

On Comatose:
Rumors has already given a good overview on Comatose Phazing in its current state in his post. My personal opinion is that it can be dealt with, with commonly used or mainstream sets, but there is a level of RNG and taking control away from the player, so I am fairly neutral on whether it should be kept or not because I can see the mertis on both sides of the issue.
I do want to debunk one thing though:
We play for fun, after all. And if a meta isn't fun, it's simply not played.
This is not a reason for justification of any kind of decision, whether ban or unban, since what is "fun" is subjective. I find Huge Power a lot of fun to use. Comatose phazing is being considered for removal only for what I mentioned before.

Because of my uncertainty on whether it's "unhealthy enough", I feel like a suspect would be a good idea to open the floor to all of you and make a decision together. However, I am considering another solution which is: Quick Banning Comatose + Sleep Talk.

The reasons for this decision are as follows:
  • It is my opinion that Comatose, Sleep Talk, Phazing by themselves are not broken
  • Comatose can see good use in BH as being a form of status immunity that cannot be removed
  • Comatose + Sleep Talk as limited use other than using negative priority moves such as phazing
  • This is the "least impact" solution
I feel that it is a good solution that can also get around some of the wait time which some have complained about in getting suspects up. But I also understand that there might be people still open to having a suspect. So, I am opening a poll for you all to vote on which you'd rather have. Either:
  • A full blown suspect and discussion on Comatose including other possible solutions
  • A quick-ban on Comatose + Sleep Talk
 
Well there are some tactics to circumvent Innards Out that works. Magic Guard is a clear shut up because Innards Out isn't an attack. Aerodactyl enjoys running it because of stab Head Smash (and it really hurts, life orb is enough to OHKO pogre). Firing a slow Core Enforcer also deals with that. Or Normalize Gengar. Or sadly comaphazers (not dragon-throw). Then you can go down to weird and obscure tactics like team based Magnet Pull + Color Change. Or Perish Song Soundproof trappers. Or False Swipe + Passive Damage. Or tricking a Focus Sash and hitting twice. Shedinja can use Infestation and Endeavor and win. Max hp Zygarde at full health with Stealth Rocks up can survive even blissey at 87,5%.
Ok, just 3, maybe 4 of them are usable in practice, but sweeping with Zygarde is totally possible with proper team support.
It's not easy, but you can run a team "Innards Out proof", just like we have teams "Water Bubble proof". We either suspect it or keep it and accept to either live knowing to play 5v5 games or get your team to deal with that.
Magic Guard is easily the best way to deal with random Innards Out things, and a Core Enforcer on the switch works great, too. The great thing about Core Enforcer is that it's just a great move overall, working on pretty much everything slower. Besides that, you're going to have to accept the 5v5. Remember they can simply phase the Gengar or Perish Song user, regardless of if they're Normalize or not.

Anyways, that gave me two ideas... Magic Guard Shell Smash Diancie-Mega with Head Smash and Light Of Ruin, and Galvanize Zekrom with Core Enforcer. I'll be willing to go over these sets with more detail, and will probably edit this post with them, anyways, because they both seem like cool ideas...
 
Normalizing the Innards Out user still forces the opponent to switch, and from there you gain momentum. Even Registeel has a fair chance to OHKO Chansey (with absolute minimum def) with uninvested U-turn. And nothing really stops you from switching in Gengar again (also Gengar usually run secret sword that happens to be quite effective on any Innards Out user bar Giratina and Zygarde, and they often run other sets).
 
I feel like everytime I make a point, at least 1 person misinterprets it, so I'll keep this short

Innards out doesnt need to be an defensive ability

Mega Rayquaza

Some Skill Required (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Innards Out
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Switcheroo

Today is no skill day kids! All you have to do is find a mon with >100 Base Hp and a shi*load of Atk/SpA! Oh boi! Here's another one!

Some Skill Required (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Innards Out
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Oblivion Wing
- Eruption
- Volt Switch


There are actually 0 offensive threats that have both over 414 hp and 226 speed (inb4 some idiot misses the point and says ice beam lunala can 252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 338-398 (81.6 - 96.1%) it can't :/) that can KO ray and anything slow sure as hell won't have 414 hp when I'm done with it

Scorecard
You are fast= you die
You are slow= you die
You switch= you probably still die
You are magic guard= I switch, you die later
You forfeit= You DON'T die but you still lose :(

Oh and if you don't kill me we get to do this whole thing over again. YAY! :D

The. End.
 
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I just keep getting sadder and sadder

Some Skill Required (Mewtwo-Mega X) @ Choice Band
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Ice Hammer
- V-create
- Extreme Speed
- High Jump Kick

252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 604-712 (94.9 - 111.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 650-766 (135.9 - 160.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 411-484 (145.2 - 171%)

These don't die but rmbr, If they kill me they do die. Also dmg is sad
252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 255-301 (72.2 - 85.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%)


The only thing I can think of that does not die. (excluding shed) Yes chansey dies too if speed tie luck is bad :(
252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 306-360 (60.8 - 71.5%)

First turn: Tina uses a non baneful bunker shield. gets poisoned
Tina takes at most 71.5% (no crit) uses will-o-wisp -> heals 12.5% -> now at 41%
Tina takes at most 35.75% (no crit) now at 5.25% -> uses recover (not shield cuz they might switch) -> now at 67.75% yay!

Rmbr, no switchins. Also, i could run say... switcheroo. Poor tina :(
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Refer to the post above.
Hilarious. But why not Shell Smash? Is that for improofing?

Also I think 105 HP is kinda ambiguous... nowadays I am building a plan for Innards Out Mewtwo - Y (I know it has 105 HP but it is also unpredictable) or keep on using Innards Out Lunala which throws Toxic and checks Shedinja overall.
 
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