BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[CallMeLefty]

Towards Innards Out, I really am not sure of what you think. It seems to me that most of the early arguments were just massive theorymonning, while Innards Out is an ability that is extremely matchup reliant.

At first, I really didn't see how you could consider IO broken, but after facing offensive sweepers carrying it I see the point. It means that your sweepers need to be at a really high health, while widdling down your opponent, to have a shot at sweeping and not continuously trading. The issue is how much it forces you to trade mons (not only with dedicated defensive walls, but also with offensive threats that NEED to be eliminated, for instance things like Shell Smash Yveltal that dont rely that much on abilities to function).

I am the one that said on PS that 1v1 trades are not fair but actually BS, and for good reason: chosing you 5v5 matchup is a massive gain. It allows you to remove a threatening sweeper or wallbreaker. Backed up by a powerful defensive core, it really gives balance a hard time to either break through stall, or sweep through offense.

Rumor's analysis on how it forces you to not mindlessly pivot is very interesting, and it makes me wonder if we're not just in a conservative mindset: the fact that Innards Out favors stall and offense over balance/bulky offense with a lot of pivots means that this playstyle simply becomes less viable. In our minds, it may be a bit like "balanced meta=meta with balance"

Taken to the extreme, the ability to choose your 5v5 matchup could really make Innards Out broken. However, currently, it is at best whorty of a suspect once bubble, psychic surge, possibly even Zygarde/primals, have suspected/discussed actively.
My biggest advice on the matter is that, to discuss if it is truly broken, replays are needed since both "you can widdle it/bypass with multi hit" and "its a 5v5 chosen matchup" arguments are defendible and depend on the meta.


Also: with deo-a losing a lot of viability, and Innards starting to be used, Magic Guard Mega-Aero is better than ever, as an actually viable check (though ice hammer might be required).

 

[Rumors]

Here's a really old, tournament-level replay, but it doesn't really change what the move is capable of. Destiny Bond can still really throw a match off too, as this turned what would have been a ~50 turn match into a 150 turn semi-stall vs semi-stall battle of wits (which was fun though.) I got a 2 for 1 trade on my D.Bond victim, but if my opponent had switched in the user first, it would have been 1 for 1. I blunder into it and even chastised myself for it, which also goes to show the threat of D.Bond could have stopped my sweep then and there by forcing me to switch.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-139003191

Go to about turn 40 if you want to see the lead-up to the D.Bond event. Game is 151 turns long if you want to watch the whole thing. Apologies for being a bit outdated, but I feel it illustrates that Destiny Bond can have a lot of power to alter a game at high level play as well, especially since it's, by far, my most memorable event of getting significantly hampered by Destiny Bond.


Also that replay took me about half an hour to dig up. I really should save the link this time since it's just a really good battle in general.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Two of posts above by Rumors.

Talking again about Innards Out related to my replays & overall discussions in the forum:

* Just like Rumors have mentioned, I just threw Chansey nukes on offensive threats. But the ones I was targeting was possible -ate users which threaten my Kyurem-W and others that has high chance of running improof set.

* Rumors also mentioned what I forgot to mention in my previous post; people carelessely attack Chansey for some reason. I don't get why, but I think it might be because too many people have post traumatic disorder or some sort that was induced by facing cancerous Chansey in OU or Ubers.

* Some of you might wonder why do I have Kyurem-W instead of extra Chansey. To make it short, it is because Kyurem-W can check the most common checks for Innards Out Chansey. Magic Bounce Giratina always puts the whole game down to pp stall, Zygarde-C can do minor damage with Core Enforcer (which Zygarde-C commonly carries) and sometimes even survive Final Gambit depending on prior damage dealt to Innards Out Chansey. Shedinja also forces me to switch into Imposter to block Endeavor or to send Innards Out when I can make much better use of it.

See my point here? EVERYONE knows that EVERYTHING has its checks and counters. Innards Out is not too much of an issue. Even if someone dies in all sudden by touching innocent-looking blob (I know there are various forms of Innards Out but Chansey is the most common), Chansey still dies.

If you have had a chance to look at this post, I would appreciate it but I would ask you to look at previous posts, especially from E4 Flint's. Innards Out is just a moment of frustration when Chansey does something cancerous.

Think about Water Bubble. In a sense of killing and dealing damage, it is far worse than Innards Out. If you lack Water Absorb, somebody has to die or be seriously hurt. If Water Bubble user predicts switch and uses Core Enforcer, somebody has to die. If you don't want anything to die, you are forced to run Water Absorb / Water type RegenVest / Max SpDef Palkia or Kyogre in the team. (Even some options in the list are dented with Water Spout)

Think about good old CFZ's. If you are unprepared for Deo-A spam team, somebody will die or be severely dented every turn. If there is Harvest user with Leppa Berry, there will be misery every turn until some time RNG does not support 50% chance anymore.

Think about banned Protean. With appropriate plate you can gain STAB from everything while improofing yourself. Depending on your movepool, you can check your own potential check in some occasions.

But Innards Out? It is:

Pop
Boom
Ded
You ded too

... I can't believe we have delayed our time to discuss about something that is even more prominent. This will most likely be my last post about Innards Out once I post 20 extra replays using the same team.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

I would like to point out that most of the people I talk to don't seem to feel like water bubble is that huge of an issue. In fact, I'm probably seeing it only 1/10-15 games I play. YOU DIE TO CHANSEY FAR TOO EASILY IF YOU RUN WB.

Also as the only person who bothered to run the sets I posted let me reel off my results. I ran double IO + my standard core which should be familiar to any1 who has played me gen 7.
These were my sets

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Choice Band
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Hammer
- High Jump Kick
- Precipice Blades
- Extreme Speed

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Ascent
- Bolt Strike
- Ice Hammer

I managed to get 1st place along with the only 90%+ GXE aside from Anna.

Most battles had a conversation like this.
Opponent: Ur a Noob
Me: k
Opponent: U can't just run Innards on Random Mons
Me: k
Opponent: Ur bad
Me: Look whose not losing tho
Opponent: >:(

So I stand by what I said. They do work, and they r sorta overpowered. I would like them to get suspected hopefully b4 WB, but i realize thats a pipe dream.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Refer to the post above.

I get the point. I lost to that team before. I am not saying the sets are bad at all. (TBH never expected Ice Hammer from Mega Ray) But I do not agree that these are overpowered because they have IO.

This may seem really obvious explanation, but I am sure that you know giving Choice Band to base attack of 180 (Mega Ray) or 190 (MMX) obviously results in a hell damage. I would say running IO on these mons are creative and unpredictable, but these sets can be so much more overpowered with different abilities such as Adaptability, Stakeout, Tinted Lens, etc. (Although some sets may be hard to improof)

I would say they do not deserve suspect. I would say MMX and Mega Ray being overpowered with Choice Band is not so much relevant to Innards Out. Killing them might hurt A LOT. But with different abilities, MMX and Mega Ray can inversely counter their checks that they would potentially lose to. (Such as your Ray can run Tough Claws / Adaptability and Choice Scarf to outspeed the likes of MMY)

I believe Innards Out works this way more commonly:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520339386

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520340277

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520341713

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520344387

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520344878

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520348216

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520505825

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520538397

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520542244

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520568223

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520572580

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520574852

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520582712

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520589727

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520599293

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520611465

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520626953

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520708626

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-520714362



And as I mentioned earlier, this might be the last time I mention about IO. I believe there are plenty of things that should be suspected and the most urgent one I think is Water Bubble.

 

[Ren]

A lot of OM players, when they look at this thread, see people posting irrelevant replays (versus a Cosmog and Mono Electric, for example), making irrelevant comparisons (like Refrigerate Explosion and Prankster Destiny Bond to Innards Out) and saying that things aren't broken because... Other things in the tier are more broken. Honestly, I'm lost.

Posting 35 replays (I don't know how many there actually are, I don't want to go through that many replays and count each individual one) doesn't help the situation. Please explain it to us. Don't show us a bunch of replays and say that "Innards Out works like this", please take some time and explain it to us in a manner which contains valid evidence, comparisons and coherence. I can name a plethora of individuals who have stopped posting in and paying attention to this thread due to the colossal decline in quality posts.

My opinion on the stance is identical to motherlove 's - The assumption that Innards Out only punishes offense isn't true at all.

Another thing I'd like to point out regarding the idea that Tony is pointless against stall is that Tony has the potential to massively damage any team that relies on a regenVest user (which seems to be most teams nowadays).

A lot of people seem to entertain the illusion that Innards Out is useless against stall and for those individuals, I highly advise you to read this segment. Seriously. It'll take 10 seconds of your time and you'll be left with a greater understanding of how stall is damaged.

Also, whittling down the HP with relatively low-powered attacks won't work either.

4 Atk Solgaleo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 380-448 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In this scenario, you pivot... and the Chansey Metal Bursts, dealing 570 HP of damage to anything on the lowest roll possible. Friendly reminder that a minimum roll that you Metal Burst off of KOs anything that isn't Chansey or ZygC (and Blissey and Guzzlord, I know I left them out but both have no relevance in BH whatsoever.)

This calc may seem meaningless, but I'll try to explain why I included it. In a scenario where you're facing an Innards Out Chansey, you simply can't whittle it down using attacks that don't KO because Chansey won't just sit there and take punishment. Innards Out Chansey carries Metal Burst to punish things that think they can get away with using weak attacks to whittle its health down. What doesn't it KO? Two relevant things in the tier. If you think that's balanced, then I don't know how else to convince you.

Calc some more if you guys are curious about how much things other than RegenVest Solgaleo do, grab your spears and pitchforks because I included 4 Atk EVs, doesn't really matter to me. Regardless of what you do, though, please respond in a coherent manner - I'm not the only one who thinks that most people on this thread aren't making sense.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

You are rite, it does work on chansey nukes a lot more frequently, but imo it's ban worthy because it fits more nearly with this:

• "Splashable"ility:
  Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard

• Extreme Augmentation:
  The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

As I believed I just stated, you do NOT need to run it on just chansey. When I look on water bubble, the second clause is met, but not so much the first one. I mean, yeah, you can run it on mew two or something but thats about it. You know what you're dealing with. Innards Out, you're pretty much F***ed into doing something you don't want to do by which time I may have murdered your team with a 800 ark mon. My issue with Innards is that you can use it anything basically that has 100+ base HP because the average hp for mons in the metagame is actually ridiculously low, something like 300-350. Most walls have 70-80 Base HP (registeel, but not solgaleo) and offensive mons don't run HP evs. Taking for granted that a Kyube wouldn't have HP invest (it would prob) a max hp ray would still ohko it because of the EV discrepency despite having 20 more Base HP.

Basically, if you look at the definition of bannable, imo it fits IO > WB

(Edit: Checked it over and Spell check seems to have murdered it :( Sorry)

 

[NabboCheTesta]

You are rite, it does work on chansey nukes a lot more frequently, but imo it's ban worthy because it fits more nearly with this:

• "Splashable"ility:
  Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard

• Extreme Augmentation:
  The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

As I believed I just stated, you do NOT need to run it on just chansey. When I look on water bubble, the second clause is met, but not so much the first one. I mean, yeah, you can run it on mew two or something but thats about it. You know what you're dealing with. Innards Out, you're pretty much F***ed into doing something you don't want to do by which time I may have murdered your team with a 800 ark mon. My issue with Innards is that you can use it anything basically that has 100+ base HP because the average hp for mons in the metagame is actually ridiculously low, something like 300-350. Most walls have 70-80 Base HP (registeel, but not solgaleo) and offensive mons don't run HP evs. Taking for granted that a Kyube wouldn't have HP invest (it would prob) a max hp ray would still ohko it because of the EV discrepency despite having 20 more Base HP.

Basically, if you look at the definition of bannable, imo it fits IO > WB

(Edit: Checked it over and Spell check seems to have murdered it :( Sorry)

^

You can essentially pick and choose, and it's stupid because it can come out of literally nowhere. The sheer presence of an IO mon puts off the opponent from clicking any powerful (or physical, ya know) move, because they may risk losing an important sweeper/wallbreaker out of the blue, while your own IO mon is free to hit your enemy/do its supportive role with a much less limited approach. Depending from the situation, you may be playing 6vs4/5 because of this, sort of like gothita forced walls to stay on the bench until she was gone due to the simple risk of losing them to a hard switch that goth could pull off effortlessly. WB is still ebola tho.

 

[motherlove]

A lot of OM players, when they look at this thread, see people posting irrelevant replays (versus a Cosmog and Mono Electric, for example), making irrelevant comparisons (like Refrigerate Explosion and Prankster Destiny Bond to Innards Out) and saying that things aren't broken because... Other things in the tier are more broken. Honestly, I'm lost.

Posting 35 replays (I don't know how many there actually are, I don't want to go through that many replays and count each individual one) doesn't help the situation. Please explain it to us. Don't show us a bunch of replays and say that "Innards Out works like this", please take some time and explain it to us in a manner which contains valid evidence, comparisons and coherence. I can name a plethora of individuals who have stopped posting in and paying attention to this thread due to the colossal decline in quality posts.

My opinion on the stance is identical to motherlove 's - The assumption that Innards Out only punishes offense isn't true at all.

A lot of people seem to entertain the illusion that Innards Out is useless against stall and for those individuals, I highly advise you to read this segment. Seriously. It'll take 10 seconds of your time and you'll be left with a greater understanding of how stall is damaged.

Also, whittling down the HP with relatively low-powered attacks won't work either.

4 Atk Solgaleo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 380-448 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In this scenario, you pivot... and the Chansey Metal Bursts, dealing 570 HP of damage to anything on the lowest roll possible. Friendly reminder that a minimum roll that you Metal Burst off of KOs anything that isn't Chansey or ZygC (and Blissey and Guzzlord, I know I left them out but both have no relevance in BH whatsoever.)

This calc may seem meaningless, but I'll try to explain why I included it. In a scenario where you're facing an Innards Out Chansey, you simply can't whittle it down using attacks that don't KO because Chansey won't just sit there and take punishment. Innards Out Chansey carries Metal Burst to punish things that think they can get away with using weak attacks to whittle its health down. What doesn't it KO? Two relevant things in the tier. If you think that's balanced, then I don't know how else to convince you.

Calc some more if you guys are curious about how much things other than RegenVest Solgaleo do, grab your spears and pitchforks because I included 4 Atk EVs, doesn't really matter to me. Regardless of what you do, though, please respond in a coherent manner - I'm not the only one who thinks that most people on this thread aren't making sense.

I don't really know where you got that calc, but it looks more like this: 0 Atk Solgaleo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 1193-1404 (169.4 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That is, if you bother to run full HP Chansey (which you don't really need to).

when I mention stall, I mean full stall. Stuff like Adrian's Paranoid Stall levels of stall

Just wanted to point out that Paranoid Stall has 3 mons that can OHKO Chansey (excluding imposter Chansey which could very well do so), I also checked anna says hi's rmt from last gen which also had 3 mons that can OHKO Chansey (again, excluding imposter Chansey).

 

[I like donkeys]

0- Atk Aegislash-Shield U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 362-427 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Aegislash-Shield Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 104-123 (14.7 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO

I'd like to add on to motherlove's post by showing these calcs. What you see above is the lowest possible physical damage output you'd likely see coming from a stall team, this is a defensive Aegislash with an attack stat of 94 (the lowest possible attack stat i could think of, from a viable stallmon at least). Even rapid spin on the lowest roll, Chansey will deal 156 HP damage with metal burst which will definitely dent Aegislash (Aegis max HP is 324 so it's almost a 2HKO, just a frame of reference for you all), meanwhile if Aegis wants to U-turn out then something has to stomach AT LEAST 543 HP damage. 170 base HP maxed out is 544 HP. Only 6 mons have 170 base HP or higher; Wailord, Wobb, Zygod, Guzzlord, Chansey and Blissey. If U-turn gets the max roll, only Guzz and the pink blobs can survive from full.

Keep in mind that if literally any other viable stallmon goes for a physical attack it will do MUCH more damage. Case in point, min attack Registeel;

0 Atk Registeel U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 597-703 (84.8 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Registeel Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 171-202 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO

I'm sure every Registeel will run a speed lowering nature so i don't think it's accurate to showcase an attack-lowering nature. In case you didn't know, 597*1.5 is higher than blissey's max hp, which = guaranteed OHKO on something.

Basically, good luck using stall against a team with innards out Chansey, lel

EDIT: I just realized Registeel outslows Chansey so metal burst is useless. Not a problem! Just give Chansey quiet nature or something and set it to level 89, now you'll outslow basically every Registeel and still have that crispy 13 defense you would otherwise have at lvl 100 with a defense-lowering nature. I haven't checked the calcs for lvl 89 Chansey but i'm sure it's effectiveness wouldn't change much

EDIT2: If you REALLY want a nice zesty juicy Chansey set, lvl 69 Chansey outslows min speed Toxapex by 1 point. Lvl 69 Chansey has a solid 488 max HP so it still dumpsters offensive mons with innards out, my god what a heat set someone please use this lmao

EDIT3: I'm actually getting excited by lvl 69 Chansey lol, now even special attackers can OHKO Chansey and in turn get murked by innards. Pokemon with 143 base HP maxed out can survive lvl 69 Chansey innards out from full. So only Giratina, Slaking, and the 6 mons i mentioned before, can survive innards out from full.
So a mon that's underleveled by 31 levels is still very viable, such a weird concept

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

0- Atk Aegislash-Shield U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 362-427 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Aegislash-Shield Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 104-123 (14.7 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO

I'd like to add on to motherlove's post by showing these calcs. What you see above is the lowest possible physical damage output you'd likely see coming from a stall team, this is a defensive Aegislash with an attack stat of 94 (the lowest possible attack stat i could think of, from a viable stallmon at least). Even rapid spin on the lowest roll, Chansey will deal 156 HP damage with metal burst which will definitely dent Aegislash (Aegis max HP is 324 so it's almost a 2HKO, just a frame of reference for you all), meanwhile if Aegis wants to U-turn out then something has to stomach AT LEAST 543 HP damage. 170 base HP maxed out is 544 HP. Only 6 mons have 170 base HP or higher; Wailord, Wobb, Zygod, Guzzlord, Chansey and Blissey. If U-turn gets the max roll, only Guzz and the pink blobs can survive from full.

Keep in mind that if literally any other viable stallmon goes for a physical attack it will do MUCH more damage. Case in point, min attack Registeel;

0 Atk Registeel U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 597-703 (84.8 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Registeel Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 171-202 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO

I'm sure every Registeel will run a speed lowering nature so i don't think it's accurate to showcase an attack-lowering nature. In case you didn't know, 597*1.5 is higher than blissey's max hp, which = guaranteed OHKO on something.

Basically, good luck using stall against a team with innards out Chansey, lel

EDIT: I just realized Registeel outslows Chansey so metal burst is useless. Not a problem! Just give Chansey quiet nature or something and set it to level 89, now you'll outslow basically every Registeel and still have that crispy 13 defense you would otherwise have at lvl 100 with a defense-lowering nature. I haven't checked the calcs for lvl 89 Chansey but i'm sure it's effectiveness wouldn't change much

I've been mostly avoiding these threads, but it would probably be better to just run an iron ball or lagging tail.

As far as the whole innards out thing goes, I think most people here are making a fundemental attribution error in their posts and would really advise that they read what motherlove and now voltdarkrai are saying.

Also Rumors why, exactly, is a trash set like explosion kyub or a xy replay in which destiny bond user lost after you missplayed supposed to have any relevance?

 

[Rumors]

I don't feel like repeating myself, it gets tiresome and I've already expressed my opinion in detail a few times. So, I'm just going to focus on things I've not addressed or things directed at me when it comes to future IO discussion.

@ The Metal Burst calculations: Guys, none of those calcs involve Innards Out. Even if we ban the ability, Chansey can still do that sort of crap, which means the problem there is either Metal Burst or Chansey. Take your pick. Also, despite how much I'm trying to restrain myself from saying it, but stop spamming U-turn. Innards Out Chansey can't do that crap if you just Parting Shot it. Or Volt Switch it unless you go to like... level 20 Chansey or some bullcrap.

"But if Innards Out didn't exist then Chansey couldn't do this." Take Donkey's Chanseys and replace Innards Out with a Focus Sash. Boom, Metal Burst, OHKO, done. Only Chansey couldn't switch into a U-Turn. But... neither do those Metal Bursting IO Chanseys want to either.

"Splashable"ility:

• Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard

• Extreme Augmentation:
  The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

Innards Out is hardly splashable since it requires a good base HP to use it and requires minimizing defensive investment, which therefore means it has nothing of the wide-usability of stuff like Shadow Tag, Chatter, etc. Those abilities and moves to can drop on literally any Pokemon in any role to good effect. Innards Out... no, not really. You can cause significant dents with lower HP values like your sweepers, but that makes the ability less effective itself. And Innards isn't necessarily the best ability for an offensive Pokemon since, ideally, you'd want to score KOs without losing your sweeper/wall breaker. It does have a nice element of surprise though.

As for Extreme Augmentation, no... no it doesn't. Innards Out is nowhere near as strong as Parental Bond or Huge Power. Not even remotely close. With Parental Bond, you can literally sweep teams with stuff like defensive PB Registeel at little to no risk to your team or Registeel itself. It was also only walled by Poison Heal Giratina. But Nature's Madness is a thing now, so that won't even be reliable anymore. Huge Power was less splashable, but you could dump it on Scrappy HP Belly Drum Slaking and either OHKO the entire meta except Shedinja with Extreme Speed or come really close. It practically mandated Fur Coat use similar to how Water Bubble mandates Water Absorb. Except, we have Sunsteel Strike now, so Fur Coat and Shedinja are both washes. Either way, point being, there's a biiiiiiiiiig difference between an ability that can net a 1 for 1 trade, maybe a 2 for 1 on certain sets, vs abilities that let Pokemon 6-0 teams with no support.



Quantum Tesseract On Explosion, have you ever used it? Part of the reason behind ability clause, along with the other stuff it nuked such as my mono-Poison Heal team, was stuff like 5 -ate Explosion Kyu-Bs + someone to clean up the last survivor. I wish I had the replay, I think I know where it was posted but I don't remember who. Additionally, Explosion is the same 1 for 1 philosophy as Innards Out, just applied differently and harder to use. While it's a rare move since it requires very consistent play to use reliably, it's silly to overlook its sheer destructive potential.

As for the Destiny Bond replay. First, as I said, the move hasn't changed enough to need a more up to date replay, that battle could pretty much occur now as it did then. Additionally, being an official tournament level replay (not room tourny, those didn't exist then), I felt it was more represntative of actual play rather than me beating up some 1400 ELO ladder scrub yesterday with a team of 4 Destiny Bond users. Second, the missplay and victory doesn't matter, it's to illustrate that the presence of Destiny Bond can have the same impact as Innards Out and can pull similar shennanigans. 1 for 1 trade, he picked my sweeper for the trade and I carelessly attacked it, which dramatically changed the match and cost me the momentum I needed to win by turn 50. What are you guys arguing? 1 for 1 trades that the user picks and dramatically changes the match in their favor or at least resets momentum? It's pretty much the same thing, just employed differently.



...jeeze, this post was way longer than I meant for it to be.

Edit to Quantum: If you want a more recent example of Destiny Bond, watch Highlighter's and PDT's third match in the tournament.


Edit to general: If you guys want examples of how spammed U-Turn is, just watch the tournament battles going on. I just finished watching Highlighter vs PDT and the first and third matches were infested with the move. To me, it's no wonder IO U-Turn punishing Chanseys are coming out.

 

[cityscapes]

@ The Metal Burst calculations: Guys, none of those calcs involve Innards Out. Even if we ban the ability, Chansey can still do that sort of crap, which means the problem there is either Metal Burst or Chansey. Take your pick. Also, despite how much I'm trying to restrain myself from saying it, but stop spamming U-turn. Innards Out Chansey can't do that crap if you just Parting Shot it. Or Volt Switch it unless you go to like... level 20 Chansey or some bullcrap.

"But if Innards Out didn't exist then Chansey couldn't do this." Take Donkey's Chanseys and replace Innards Out with a Focus Sash. Boom, Metal Burst, OHKO, done. Only Chansey couldn't switch into a U-Turn. But... neither do those Metal Bursting IO Chanseys want to either.

I somewhat agree with the rest of your post, but this part makes absolutely no sense to me.

The thing about Innards Out (or Tony, if you'd like) is that you can switch it in on offensive mons. For example, say you're up against a Shell Smash Yveltal and you want to counter it with this Chansey. You lose if:

• There are hazards of any kind on your side.
• Yveltal uses Power Trip on the switch.
• Chansey has taken any kind of prior damage.
• Yveltal has Substitute or something.
• You use Final Gambit, and Yveltal does something other than staying in and Shell Smashing again.

Otherwise, you successfully... force Yveltal out. Yay?

Tony cares about literally none of this, bar maybe getting hit on the switch (and even then, you can just use a slow pivot). There's no 50/50s involved because Yveltal can't whittle down Chansey except if it uses Leech Seed or something dumb. Metal Burst Chansey was not relevant last gen, and I think that Innards Out is the only thing keeping it alive this gen.

 

[Rumors]

Silver_Lucario42 People are talking about IO Chansey chilling in front of something with U-Turn and Metal Bursting it when it switches with the move, not switching into a non-OHKO U-Turn and then somehow Metal Bursting after. It'd be more fair for your Yveltal comparison if Chansey is already in safely at max health, since it's the same assumption as IO Chansey Metal Bursting a U-Turn.

And forcing a boosted Power Trip Yveltal out would be a yay in my book, since you rob the opponent of their momentum and it gives you a chance to keep them from setting up again. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather take a 0 for 0 over a 1 for 1.

 

[ElMustacho]

0- Atk Aegislash-Shield U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 362-427 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Aegislash-Shield Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 104-123 (14.7 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO

I'd like to add on to motherlove's post by showing these calcs. What you see above is the lowest possible physical damage output you'd likely see coming from a stall team, this is a defensive Aegislash with an attack stat of 94 (the lowest possible attack stat i could think of, from a viable stallmon at least). Even rapid spin on the lowest roll, Chansey will deal 156 HP damage with metal burst which will definitely dent Aegislash (Aegis max HP is 324 so it's almost a 2HKO, just a frame of reference for you all), meanwhile if Aegis wants to U-turn out then something has to stomach AT LEAST 543 HP damage. 170 base HP maxed out is 544 HP. Only 6 mons have 170 base HP or higher; Wailord, Wobb, Zygod, Guzzlord, Chansey and Blissey. If U-turn gets the max roll, only Guzz and the pink blobs can survive from full.

Keep in mind that if literally any other viable stallmon goes for a physical attack it will do MUCH more damage. Case in point, min attack Registeel;

0 Atk Registeel U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 597-703 (84.8 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Registeel Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 171-202 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO

I'm sure every Registeel will run a speed lowering nature so i don't think it's accurate to showcase an attack-lowering nature. In case you didn't know, 597*1.5 is higher than blissey's max hp, which = guaranteed OHKO on something.

Basically, good luck using stall against a team with innards out Chansey, lel

EDIT: I just realized Registeel outslows Chansey so metal burst is useless. Not a problem! Just give Chansey quiet nature or something and set it to level 89, now you'll outslow basically every Registeel and still have that crispy 13 defense you would otherwise have at lvl 100 with a defense-lowering nature. I haven't checked the calcs for lvl 89 Chansey but i'm sure it's effectiveness wouldn't change much

EDIT2: If you REALLY want a nice zesty juicy Chansey set, lvl 69 Chansey outslows min speed Toxapex by 1 point. Lvl 69 Chansey has a solid 488 max HP so it still dumpsters offensive mons with innards out, my god what a heat set someone please use this lmao

EDIT3: I'm actually getting excited by lvl 69 Chansey lol, now even special attackers can OHKO Chansey and in turn get murked by innards. Pokemon with 143 base HP maxed out can survive lvl 69 Chansey innards out from full. So only Giratina, Slaking, and the 6 mons i mentioned before, can survive innards out from full.
So a mon that's underleveled by 31 levels is still very viable, such a weird concept

As I already calculated some days ago, the border is at 155 atk. From there you risk the OHKO with U-turn. This reduces the list of good walls that can avoid the explosion of Chansey to Aegislash and Audino-Mega. Which is kinda lame. However it exists a good number of alternative walls with a pitiful base atk that "might" be useful, such as Carbink, Shuckle, Toxapex, Bastiodon, Cosmog, Regice (desperately in need of Fur Coat) and Deoxys-Defence. Each one has at least one problem, but sure it isn't using U-turn (Shuckle gets the slowest U-turn ever, which is nice). Using U-turn on a strong Magic Guard user removes the problem too for already considered reasons.
Also Shuckle. Shuckle is so underwhelming that U-turn fails to 4HKO!
0 Atk Shuckle U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 145-172 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
And you are also never getting hitted by Metal Burst, given that Shuckle speed equals Chansey defence.
Also I theorized an offensive, non tested set of Gengar that easily deals with Innards Out, and with the meta in general.

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Core Enforcer
- Judgment
- Entrainment
- Shell Smash/Secret Sword

It looks like Core Enforcer is redundant with Entrainment, but let me explain why it isn't.
Core Enforcer allows to stop on the switch incoming priority users without the need of Entrainment, including Fairy types because of Normalize. And Innards Out of course is taken care of. Then it shuts down Magic Bounce too, so that you can Normalize even them. Lastly, Core Enforcer deals relevant damage and isn't passive like Entrainment; RegenVest cannot sponge the damage forever because Regenerator doesn't work.
Judgment is Judgment and that's the reason you are imposterproof.
The last move is interchangeable and bends to your needs. Shell Smash eventually powers up you enough to crush whatever opposes you, including Unaware (smile at Entrainment), while Secret Sword targets Def and cuts in half Chansey after having Innards Out removed or suppressed. I also remind you that getting Core Enforced is something you pass through Baton Pass.
The only Pokemon you can't suppress their abilities are ghost, Magic Bounce users. And they hate Judgment.

 

[Rumors]

EDIT2: If you REALLY want a nice zesty juicy Chansey set, lvl 69 Chansey outslows min speed Toxapex by 1 point. Lvl 69 Chansey has a solid 488 max HP so it still dumpsters offensive mons with innards out, my god what a heat set someone please use this lmao

EDIT3: I'm actually getting excited by lvl 69 Chansey lol, now even special attackers can OHKO Chansey and in turn get murked by innards. Pokemon with 143 base HP maxed out can survive lvl 69 Chansey innards out from full. So only Giratina, Slaking, and the 6 mons i mentioned before, can survive innards out from full.
So a mon that's underleveled by 31 levels is still very viable, such a weird concept

Actually, using that, I think I found theoretically nastier...

Chansey @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 69
EVs: 252 HP
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Destiny Bond
- Metal Burst
- Filler
- Filler

In an ideal situation, opponent attacks, eat a 400+ damage Metal Burst and gets KOed. Revenge killer comes in and gets bopped by Prankster Destiny Bond. In either case, provided no hazards are out and opponent lacks priority or you have Psychic Terrain up, you can switch into any non-multi-hit attack that doesn't inflict damaging status and get at least a 1 for 1. Sure, you can't casually discard it into an enemy Boomburst, but it makes up for that with 2 for 1 potential and additional Prankster support.


The more this discussion of IO goes on, the more I think the problem lays with Chansey. Now, I'm not convinced Chansey is problematic, so I'm not suggesting suspect/ban her or anything. 'Tis just food for thought.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Yea but rumors the whole point is the switchin. Your set can't switch in. Beyond that, your set is also basically shedinja. If rocks are up your switch in is gone. Also it dies to priority, taunt blah blah blah. Innards out works because of the sheer amount of nothing you have to do to kill something. Your set requires... something. You actually have to have skill to work it, and at the point you have skill you probably have better options. With IO if you have skill you can abuse the hell out of it anyway because of the 0 risks incurred by it, and if you don't have skill you do the exact same thing.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

=== [gen7balancedhackmons] Cancer ===

Cancer (Chansey) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Destiny Bond
- Encore / Perish Song
- Milk Drink

Actually, using that, I think I found theoretically nastier...

Chansey @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 69
EVs: 252 HP
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Destiny Bond
- Metal Burst
- Filler
- Filler

Looks somewhat similar to my set that I mentioned earlier but thanks for indirectly supporting my opinion.

I maximize Attack to maximize the damage taken from Foul Play so it is even nastier. XD

Also for those who say Innards Out is 'splashable'ility, please take a second look at how E4 Flint defines it:


Ability Ban:

Click to view

An Ability should be considered for ban based on:

• "Splashable"ility:
  Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
• Extreme Augmentation:
  The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

I know it fits on tons of different mons, but they need high HP so it canNOT be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of stat spread.

Some variants who are expert at taking damage with needlessly high (or not needlessly when running Innards Out) HP stat and pathetic defenses, like Chansey, Guzzlord, Wailord, Driftlim, Slaking (65 Sp def is something not too bulky) are very predictable.

Other variants that have high HP and hyperoffensive stats such as Mega Rayquaza, all Mewtwo variants, or others cannot be easily OHKO'ed so is not efficient when it comes to "exploding and dealing 400+ damage".

P.S. I would like to see E4 Flint not using banned mons in next tournament. :D
Edit: Never mind sorry Flint, I thought you were in tour for some reason lmao

 

[Rumors]

RNGIsCancer Oh, whoops. Either forgot you posted that set or overlooked it.

ShedMiddleFinga Focus Sash lets it switch in. It requires entry-hazard removal support to do so, but so do several other switch-ins in the tier. Priority depends on of Sash is up, since it can just Metal Burst the priority user. Taunt, well, Metal Burst isn't affected and a lot of sweepers have 4MSS for running Taunt. I'll give you IO takes less skill since that can't really be argued against. While that is a red flag (eg, CFZs, and just about everything else in BH, took little skill), it doesn't necessarily mean its broken (eg, Imposter and Gen VI Shedinja took little skill in most cases).

 

[motherlove]

RNGIsCancer Oh, whoops. Either forgot you posted that set or overlooked it.

ShedMiddleFinga Focus Sash lets it switch in. It requires entry-hazard removal support to do so, but so do several other switch-ins in the tier. Priority depends on of Sash is up, since it can just Metal Burst the priority user. Taunt, well, Metal Burst isn't affected and a lot of sweepers have 4MSS for running Taunt. I'll give you IO takes less skill since that can't really be argued against. While that is a red flag (eg, CFZs, and just about everything else in BH, took little skill), it doesn't necessarily mean its broken (eg, Imposter and Gen VI Shedinja took little skill in most cases).

Uh, first off I love how you brush off hazard control like it's a given when any counter / check to anything ever in pokemon is always taken into account with rocks up. So Chansey switches in and either dies to prio or forces it out once, not even getting any momentum if it goes for dbond. That's a pretty shitty check if you ask me.
I don't really understand how you can't grasp the difference between having to physically be on the field to get up dbond and just inherently having a dbond up constantly.

 

[Rumors]

Guy, chill. I completely understand the difference. First, if you're using Focus Sash anything, or Shedinja, and you're not keeping control of hazards, and you switch into hazards when you have the choice not to, then, I'll be blunt, you're playing poorly. After all, why would you switch into a situation where you'd be uselessly OHKOed when you have other options? I mean... would you switch Zygarde-C into Kyu-W's Boomburst? And if you don't have other options, then you've either lost or it's a sacrificial switch to a check or counter.

Besides, while Hazards are often a given, but Defog is also pretty much a given in the meta too. You're right in that we should consider hazards up for damage calcs, but it's also worthwhile to consider them down due to how common Defog is. Hence why whenever I post a "does 85% damage" calc, I always say "OHKOes with a little prior damage" rather than "with Stealth Rock" since, well, it's hard to absolutely ensure keeping rocks in play. Hence, it's fair to assume the Chansey player, whether IO or Prankster, has a way to deal with hazards. Both Chanseys appreciate it, just one more than the other. If they don't have reliable hazard removal then they deserve for their opponent to punish them for it.

Or in short on that point, I consider it fair to assume hazards are either up or down giving how common and splashable both Stealth Rock and Defog are. I already acknowledged Sash D.Bond requires hazard removal support, so can you acknowledge that our priority user needs hazard support to keep Sash Bond from switching in? Both require a teammate, after all. We could argue over how easy it is for whichever side to maintain hazards or lack thereof, but at that point we're getting beyond Prankster vs Priority to "imaginary team A" vs "imaginary team B".

...well, the priority user can run hazards, but could argue Sashbond Chansey can swap in on the turn it uses them. But what priority user runs hazards as standard, anyway?

Second, the set is Prankster. 1 HP Prankster is still useful if the opponent is forced out to non-priority, as even level 69 Chansey can toss up Recover to heal up against a passive Pokemon, or toss something like Spore on the switch-in, or Parting Shot against the switch-in, or what-have-you. Or heck, you have two empty slots on my theoretical set, just dump Endeavor onto it. If they don't take the D.Bond bait, you have a free turn for a slow Endeavor. Conversely, a 1 HP under-leveled IO is pretty useless since it can't outspeed anything to do anything. I can also argue Psychic Terrain support if I really want to, but again, this isn't Team A vs Team B.

And, IO =/= Destiny Bond up constantly. One requires very high HP remaining to function and is completely and utterly shut down by Magic Guard unless the IO has like... Core Enforcer on the switch. (But since we're talking about switching into the sweeper, that's a bit irrelevant). The other can function at any level of HP but is a bit weak to Taunt and priority.


...I really need to write shorter posts...

...and how did we go from "Innards Out is freely chilling at full HP after a safe switch and Metal Bursting any and all U-Turners" to "Prankster Destiny Bond is forced to switch into an priority attack while hazards are up and just die"?

 

[MAMP]

...and how did we go from "Innards Out is freely chilling at full HP after a safe switch and Metal Bursting any and all U-Turners" to "Prankster Destiny Bond is forced to switch into an priority attack while hazards are up and just die"?

Because you keep bringing up irrelevant theorymons instead of actually discussing innards out? Not once in the last page of discussion have I seen anyone actually try to make a reasoned argument about whether or not innards out is healthy for the metagame. Everyone please, stop shitting up the thread with garbage like 'is innards out the same thing as prankster destiny bond/explosion??? ' and 'look at this replay from 1862 of me playing against prankster destiny bond this is totally relevant to the discussion at hand' and 'hey check out these 5 million replays of me beating low ladder kids with 5 chanseys and 1 kyurem this means innards out not broken!!!!1!!' and 'let me write a 2000 page essay with annotated bibliography about sash prankster destiny bond chansey (???) and how it's totally the same thing as innards out and therefore innards out isn't broken!!!!!1!!'. Like i don't mean to sound rude or anything but please try to think a bit about your posts before you post them and make sure you stay on topic alright thanks

 

[E4 Flint]

The vote for Comatose QuickBan has ended and the share of the vote for a quickban of Comatose + Sleep Talk never dropped below even 79%. I think this is enough for me to go through with the decision to quickban Comatose + Sleep Talk

The Immortal scpinion to implement the ComaTalk Clause
(Also need to lock the vote thread linked above)

 

[E4 Flint]

I would like to talk about Water Bubble, the current hurricane storm BH is under.

Pros:

• Absurdly High Power for Water Type Moves
• Immunity to Burn
• Half Damage to Fire Attacks

Cons:

• (Theoretically) limited to a few users
• One argument that is used for the Water Bubble ban is that by forcing people to run Water Absorb/Desolate Land users, that shows how centralizing it is. I don't agree here for sevral reasons:
  • Water Absorb / Desolate Land have seen use on Primal Groudon when it was legal, and in general checks several Primal Kyogre variants including PH and more
  • Water Absorb was also used previously for weather setter Palkia with specs, which got me almost a waterfall of other discussion points
    • Water Bubble vs Primordial Sea: can work in rain, resistant to Fire even when Desolate Land is set, Immune to burn, can also work in Rain (niche)
    • Primordial Sea vs Water Bubble: can cancel out Desolate Land, negates fire moves completely
    • Damage Difference: (assuming Specs)
      Primordial Seas: +1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 241-284 (47.9 - 56.4%)
      +1 252+ SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 322-378 (64 - 75.1%)
      Damage Difference of at best around 28%, at worst around only 8%
    • can work in rain (thanks urkerab, I almost forgot that)
• Extremely difficult to Imposter Proof (not a chief reason to keep it, but it is a discussion point)

Pros against these Cons:

• Water Bubble can make use of Core Enforcer to eliminate most of its switch ins which it can afford since it does not need to run Specs), making its pool of counters even smaller

I surfed this thread a bit more and am still in the boat of ideally having a suspect, if only for the sake of principle but I am fairly sure that will result in Ban and will take up more time. So I've once again left the decision upto you all to hopefully make a whirlpool of discussion about my talking points, and decide if we should suspect it or get rid of it immediately, similar to the Comatose decision.

Vote here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-water-bubble.3593604/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/​

 

[E4 Flint]

I would like to reiterate that I find it extremely baffling to suspect unrelated things at a time. There are also policies I have to follow such as wait times for suspects, and their length. These will not change. I will attempt to make quicker decisions by making use of the polls like I have before and some other ideas I have, but suspecting two or more mechanics that have split opinions at the same time is not going to happen.



Again, just so it's clear, if there is to be a suspect for water bubble it will obviously happen after the vote, and will take the specified two week period. This would not change whether there was a vote or not since there is an AAA suspect planned soon as well.