BH Balanced Hackmons

[Young Killer]

I have completed my mission here. You don't have to thank me, I did it for all of us.

 

[_xXTacoCatXx_]

I truly could never find a good reason as to why imposter chansey has been banned. It is by far the most restrictive mon in the entire metagame and forces players to design pokemon for the sole person of taking it out. There has already been precedent that a single pokemon that force other teams to built around/for it are too restrictive on the meta game and should be banned. Many counters require some form of set up or have trouble finding any use other then just defeating imposter chansey, not to mention how a lot of imposter chansey teams are prepared to defeat your counters.

It has made the meta unhealthy and restrictive where even if you make the right plays you can still lose. I see no reason why it is not being suspect tested and banned already

 

[berry]

I truly could never find a good reason as to why imposter chansey has been banned. It is by far the most restrictive mon in the entire metagame and forces players to design pokemon for the sole person of taking it out. There has already been precedent that a single pokemon that force other teams to built around/for it are too restrictive on the meta game and should be banned. Many counters require some form of set up or have trouble finding any use other then just defeating imposter chansey, not to mention how a lot of imposter chansey teams are prepared to defeat your counters.

It has made the meta unhealthy and restrictive where even if you make the right plays you can still lose. I see no reason why it is not being suspect tested and banned already

This question has been addressed in every single iteration of the "why hasn't this been banned" discussion yet. It boils down to the fact that you build the sets, and you completely control everything that the imposter can do. This puts BH teambuilding into a unique position that isn't really commonly thought about in any other format, where you need to make sure that your own team is balanced enough to deal with the rest of your mons as imposters (imposter-proofing, or commonly improofing). At this point, imposter has been around for the entirety of the competitive BH metagame ever since Gen 5, and because of its trait at only doing what your mons can do, on top of the fact that you can easily prepare for its options because you yourself brought them into the battle, it is commonly seen as one of the largest balancing agents in BH.

Flint (the old tier leader) posted about it in this post here with the same sentiment. Imposter is one of BH's largest constants, and players need to be aware of this nuance in teambuilding if they're expecting to build competitive and consistent teams. The thing to remember is, as much as BH is a sandbox meta, it is nowhere near unlimited, and there need to be checks on common brokens and building styles for the meta to be healthy.

edit: I forgot to add, Imposters are also extremely limited. They want to do too many jobs that their item slot and 5pp limitation doesn't allow them to do. They're extremely consistent, but they will almost always have exploitable flaws depending on their item choice. For example, eviolite gives them more bulk while sacrificing the ability to switch out without being trapped and always being at risk for speed ties. Choice scarf guarantees outspeeding the opponent, but they are locked into 1 move and more easily exploitable. Shed shell gives them the option to switch out no matter what at the cost of bulk and speed. Toxic Orb helps with their poison heal matchup, but hurts everywhere else. Pikachu and other non-chansey line imposters are frail as fuck. All imposters eat shit vs bellyburdens and other self improofs unless they're running extremely niche sets. The list goes on and on.

 

[DarkRisingRay]

Name of the team: Shingeki no Kyogin

Description: imo a solid defense against the current meta. Team makes use of stall tactics to cripple and counter opposing teams with Attack Titan (regigas) n Armoured Titan (zamazenta c) being the main strikeforce.

Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/18cc0331f6abb277

How to use your team: Your lead depends on the opponents team, if you suspect they have imposter, lead with the Cart Titan (umbreon) n knock off n glare then teleport to a poison healer. If the team looks physically threatening or has regifleki or zacian, lead with the Armoured Titan as he handles all non stab V creates well n from ho oh.

Slow n steady, feel out your opponent's team, look out for mons that set up hazards or boosts. Armoured Titan is best for this for just 1st turn clicking taunt to prevent setup, healing, imprison n teleport while locking the enemy in place n giving it some swift kicks. In this heavy meta, all those kicks do big damage.

Cart Titan is a Godsend against most if not all calyrex movesets, with glare to bring it down to your speed. Spread glares n use teleport to add pressure with the switching normally beong gigas or zam.

Beast Titan (Giratina) lives non specs attacks from calyrex n is there to stop stat boosting or lock mons into a move. Female Titan (Tapu fini) is the reshiram n pheal xern answer n spinner. Hint: rapid spin increasing speed actually makes her a bit threatening.

Jaw Titan (solgaleo) was a late addition as i was having trouble with pixilate xern and wanted rocks to deter frequent switches(in the replays I had toxic). He can trap itself n the Female Titan.

The Attack Titan is very standard n needs no explanation, just don't stay in on opposing zam Cs, swicth to the Armoured or Beast Titan to handle those

Weaknesses: Mixed attackers like palkia n reshiram n the odd extreme speed pixilate xern. Ive been thinking of adding flash fire ferrothorn to deal with it but haven't gotten around to it, probably replace either solgaleo or tapu fini for it.

Some mold breaker sets. Encore n taunt are key here.

Spore on Armoured, Beast or Cart Titan can really tilt the balance heavily in your opponent's favour. Abosrb as much as possible with the Female n Attack Titan.

Effectiveness: The team is very effective giving me a 36 Win streak and consistent wins. Keep your key defensive mons relatively healthy as if you lose 1, it will be difficult to get back. Tbh the Armoured Titan is the selling point of the team with its taunt that just shuts down teams.


Replays: I stopped saving replays but here they are

Vs dustsweeper alt. Shows that you can come back from most mishaps
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1252025636

Vs xEliteEvox
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1251283732-0ih0dtlm8bd95n6hrbhdfsdzeoqcwnnpw

Vs ironsmanpain. Taunt is allowed to shine
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1251225469

 

[_xXTacoCatXx_]

This question has been addressed in every single iteration of the "why hasn't this been banned" discussion yet. It boils down to the fact that you build the sets, and you completely control everything that the imposter can do. This puts BHteambuilding into a unique position that isn't really commonly thought about in any other format, where you need to make sure that your own team is balanced enough to deal with the rest of your mons as imposters (imposter-proofing, or commonly improofing). At this point, imposter has been around for the entirety of the competitive BH metagame ever since Gen 5, and because of its trait at only doing what your mons can do, on top of the fact that you can easily prepare for its options because you yourself brought them into the battle, it is commonly seen as one of the largest balancing agents in BH.

Flint (the old tier leader) posted about it in this post here with the same sentiment. Imposter is one of BH's largest constants, and players need to be aware of this nuance in teambuilding if they're expecting to build competitive and consistent teams. The thing to remember is, as much as BH is a sandbox meta, it is nowhere near unlimited, and there need to be checks on common brokens and building styles for the meta to be healthy.

edit: I forgot to add, Imposters are also extremely limited. They want to do too many jobs that their item slot and 5pp limitation doesn't allow them to do. They're extremely consistent, but they will almost always have exploitable flaws depending on their item choice. For example, eviolite gives them more bulk while sacrificing the ability to switch out without being trapped and always being at risk for speed ties. Choice scarf guarantees outspeeding the opponent, but they are locked into 1 move and more easily exploitable. Shed shell gives them the option to switch out no matter what at the cost of bulk and speed. Toxic Orb helps with their poison heal matchup, but hurts everywhere else. Pikachu and other non-chansey line imposters are frail as fuck. All imposters eat shit vs bellyburdens and other self improofs unless they're running extremely niche sets. The list goes on and on.

My main issue here is that the amount of item choices that you have mentioned. Yes they exploitable but there is no way of telling until they have already played their cards, forcing me to guess not to mention how imposter, espeically imposter chansey or blissey to me is simply just too polarizing. The idea that the outcome of a match can come down to a speed tie constantly or I don't know if its scarf not is simply just not fun and it makes it more about luck. Of course it not impossible to defeat, I am rather high in the ladder myself but I simply just dislike how much of a stranglehold it has on the meta. In the post you sent, they also discuss sturdy shedninja, a mon that people also argued was healthy cause it has players plan more carefully when making teams, which was later banned for a similar reason. It was too restrictive and players were forced to guess which set it was running. Different shedninja sets had different weakenesses but you couldn't tell what set it was running until it was too late. Obviously imposter is not on the same level but I feel like arguing that its existence is a healthy part of team building because it has the player make very careful team choices is rather far fetched when so many others mons have been banned for a similar reason. We both clearly agree that its restrictive to some extent but it seem the disagreement comes from if its healthy or not for the meta.

 

[GL Volkner]

It's an astoundingly weak point to complain about Imposter's unpredictability in items despite you controlling everything else when the rest of the meta has unpredictability in not just items, but the ability slot and move slot as well. If unpredictability is something you struggle with, BH isn't the meta for you. Your improofs should be able to answer imposter regardless of the item as well, that's what makes teams good against Imposter.

 

[_xXTacoCatXx_]

It's an astoundingly weak point to complain about Imposter's unpredictability in items despite you controlling everything else when the rest of the meta has unpredictability in not just items, but the ability slot and move slot as well. If unpredictability is something you struggle with, BH isn't the meta for you. Your improofs should be able to answer imposter regardless of the item as well, that's what makes teams good against Imposter.

It seems you have completely missed the point. No one is complaining about unpredictability, the main issue here is that counters to imp sets can usually be defeated by just the same set but different items. things that should counter it can end being hurt by something as simple as an item change. The problem here is that its hard to prepare for every set and matches will sometimes be decided off of which set your opponent brought in rather then any sort skill. Plus you are only responding to one minor point when my main focus was discussing the restrictiveness and how its unhealthy for the meta, if you're going to ignore the rest of that then I see no reason to keep talking.

 

[GL Volkner]

They really can't be invalidated by a change in items. If your counter to something comes down to a speed tie, it's not really a counter at all.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

They really can't be invalidated by a change in items. If your counter to something comes down to a speed tie, it's not really a counter at all.

Well, sometimes they sorta can, but those are much rarer and mostly apply to self improofing, like a chill drive Chansey beating a normalize Calyrex or a toxic orb chansey beating PH mons, and it’s entirely predictable what sets can be beaten like this and this should have a backup check on the team for.

 

[berry]

My main issue here is that the amount of item choices that you have mentioned. Yes they exploitable but there is no way of telling until they have already played their cards, forcing me to guess not to mention how imposter, espeically imposter chansey or blissey to me is simply just too polarizing. The idea that the outcome of a match can come down to a speed tie constantly or I don't know if its scarf not is simply just not fun and it makes it more about luck. Of course it not impossible to defeat, I am rather high in the ladder myself but I simply just dislike how much of a stranglehold it has on the meta. In the post you sent, they also discuss sturdy shedninja, a mon that people also argued was healthy cause it has players plan more carefully when making teams, which was later banned for a similar reason. It was too restrictive and players were forced to guess which set it was running. Different shedninja sets had different weakenesses but you couldn't tell what set it was running until it was too late. Obviously imposter is not on the same level but I feel like arguing that its existence is a healthy part of team building because it has the player make very careful team choices is rather far fetched when so many others mons have been banned for a similar reason. We both clearly agree that its restrictive to some extent but it seem the disagreement comes from if its healthy or not for the meta.

First of all, to address one of the larger misconceptions in this post, shed was banned coming into the new gen because of the addition of new and extremely viable options that pushed it over the edge (namely boots and players learning how to absolutely exploit it to the best of its potential at the end of the gen, see cityscapes' 2k elo bounce spam + shed team, sugarhigh's shed + gambit spam, BMOC style gars + sheds, etc). In that aspect, that post is out of date because the meta and strategies revolving around shed completely flipped on their head. However, the meta and strategies revolving around imp have mostly stayed constant, aside from the change in usage percent of shed shell and scarf maybe instead of the overwhelming majority of imps being eviolite.

Second, as much as I hate to say it, the majority of the BH community has the "we're used to it" bias and arguments like this aren't productive when imposter has been one of the most solid pillars of BH since its inception. Playing thousands of games between all of us throughout the last 4 gens, we have gotten used to the consistency offered by imposter, and the metagame would be more or less turned completely on its head with an imp ban. The consistency here is the main point as to why imp hasn't been banned in the past: from the lowest of low ladder to the most prestigious tournament finals, BH is one of the least predictable metas across this entire website. Imposter acts as counterplay to these extremely unpredictable situations, allowing you to scout your opponent's sets and adding another layer of depth to teambuilding and play to a format that would be akin to trying to hit a 90mph fastball with your eyes closed without it. Imposter is one of the largest counters to snowballing and the consistency it offers is unparalleled

It's an astoundingly weak point to complain about Imposter's unpredictability in items despite you controlling everything else when the rest of the meta has unpredictability in not just items, but the ability slot and move slot as well. If unpredictability is something you struggle with, BH isn't the meta for you. Your improofs should be able to answer imposter regardless of the item as well, that's what makes teams good against Imposter.

I quite dislike Volk's wording here, but his sentiment is right. I feel like you (tacocat) are arguing about a much smaller point that is just a side effect of having imposter in the meta while ignoring the fact that the format would look completely different and be even more unpredictable and inconsistent without it.

It seems you have completely missed the point. No one is complaining about unpredictability, the main issue here is that counters to imp sets can usually be defeated by just the same set but different items. things that should counter it can end being hurt by something as simple as an item change. The problem here is that its hard to prepare for every set and matches will sometimes be decided off of which set your opponent brought in rather then any sort skill. Plus you are only responding to one minor point when my main focus was discussing the restrictiveness and how its unhealthy for the meta, if you're going to ignore the rest of that then I see no reason to keep talking.

I think you missed Volk's point here. By removing imposter, you are removing any semblance of predictability in the format, and that is a much larger issue than someone's team struggling vs imposter because they don't know how to prep for it. At the end of the day, I can't really think of any item choice that Imposter can run that can cause it to overcome every single one of its flaws. Period. There is ALWAYS a drawback to its item, and if the item isn't the drawback, then they only have 20 turns max of PP to use before they need to switch out and try again.

Alongside this, "its hard to prepare for every set and matches will sometimes be decided off of which set your opponent brought in rather then any sort skill" is an extremely flawed argument. First, an opponent's item choice and teambuilding is skill. They can use an item choice to overcome their own team's weaknesses. Second, you're saying you are not prepping for an option, and that option is beating you. If I built a team that completely did not account for ground types, and I lose to ground types, I can not complain about ground types beating my team. It just sounds like you haven't figured out imposterproofing yet. I don't think anyone truly has a full grasp on imposterproofing yet and some of us have been around for 6+ years. But because you can build your own team, you should know what counters it. Not doing so is simply lacking metagame skill.

They really can't be invalidated by a change in items. If your counter to something comes down to a speed tie, it's not really a counter at all.

pretty much this. The item is the only thing that really changes Imp's strategy, and there are much more consistent ways to improof something than going for a speed tie. I'd suggest you try and look into self-improofing sets with moves like Techno Blast or Anchor Shot.

Well, sometimes they sorta can, but those are much rarer and mostly apply to self improofing, like a chill drive Chansey beating a normalize Calyrex or a toxic orb chansey beating PH mons, and it’s entirely predictable what sets can be beaten like this and this should have a backup check on the team for.

Sets like these lack consistency in the first place and fall flat on their faces when trying to be viable in the widespread format, missing out on concrete benefits that are always active like scarf, eviolite, or shell. They can be used (we both know this) but are you really going to bring these when you can bring something infinitely more consistent?

Edit on the QT point: if you know who you’re playing against and prepping this is completely fine and I love these sets. But bringing these to ladder where you don’t know what’s coming and your best option being a speed tie or trying to outstall PP is a death sentence

 

[sugarhigh]

With World Cup done I guess I should post some teams I worked on. Overall went 2-2 had some bad luck but I super enjoyed the building in this new meta and felt my creativity renewed with this dlc. (Btw click on the sprites for pokepast of each team!) I also feel pretty happy because I feel I definitely influenced a new style and approach to the current meta beyond just bulky pivot balance!

Final Gambit V1 H-O

VS Minogod94
I really wanted to build with Final Gambit because I felt it had the most potential in this tier in the current meta. The ability to trade down and "simplify" games is something I really enjoy in Balanced Hackmons and provides an avenue for hyper offenses to shine. Essentially most people if it is there first time playing me (and don't know what I'm known for) won't expect final gambit or offense so I decided to bring this offense against Minogod. It ended up doing well as he didnt really have a gameplan for the Xerneas set and it ended up just winning nearly by itself. Overall the entire team is centered around sweeping with either gigas, zamazenta w/ unburden, or marshadow triage. The dragons are to trade in the early game and xerneas is the back up priority if things get too outta control. Overall its a solid team that has insane upside when the opponent does not know the sets.

Final Gambit V2 (Unburden Spam) H-O

VS Chessking
Against Chessking I wanted to use another Final Gambit Spam but this time with Unburden as well. I reused the Zamazenta set as it wasn't revealed in the last week. I decided to add an extra layer to the Final gambit core by making the zygarde Unburden with belly drum to add a little twist. Essentially it allows Zygarde to belly drum on the switch to an imposter or weakened pokemon to absorb the final gambit and instead get a trade of atleast two pokemon. In this match it worked perfectly, as I was able to bait out the zygarde-c of his own that took the giratina final gambit and was able to break his team from there. Overall an extremely fun team with interesting offense approaches such as simple calyrex-ice and Unburden Belly Drum Ho-oH

Rain Balance

VS Volknerd
I really wanted to build a rain team because I felt Palkia was potentially broken under rain as it is able to utilize a mixed set that is extremely hard to switch into unless one had a water immunity on one's team. It worked well in the beginning being able to eliminate the zygarde-c, unfortunately I was not able to capitalize as well in this match due to some unlucky paras. Though I got unlucky I definitely could have played better in this matchup. Overall I really recommend building and experimenting with rain as it is an extremely tough playstyle to play against if you are not expecting it before hand. Calyrex-Shadow can be replaced by any breaker or sweeper that is self-sufficient (no imposter prevention support) of one's choosing now that calyrex is banned!

Dragon's Maw Final Gambit

VS Volknerd
I couldn't think of what to bring so I decided to balls to the wall with sticky-webs + Dragon's Maw Dragons. Unfortunately the sticky webs kinda backfired in this game. Overall the game ends up being a speed tie to decide the game which I can live with. Was a fun game and don't regret anything other than choosing to not put imprison on the palkia. Updated the team with Imprison to ensure a better imposter matchup. Overall a fun team and am fine with the result.

Bonus Teams:
Rain Gambit

This team is extremely fun final gambit spam w/ rain team. Essentially you trade down until you are left with palkia and marshadow and sweep from there. If they ever bring in their blissey or chansey to take a final gambit they will auto lose to palkia as their dragon energy will no longer do enough. Overall it is an extremely fun team that abuses final gambit to nearly its maximum potential (imo), and should generate a win if they do not know or expect what will happen.
A great example of how this team works

Horses Gambit H-O


Anyways I hope any of these builds helps individuals to continue to innovate in the tier!!!

 

[willdbeast]

here are my teams i built for omwc, they're not very good and probably worse now calyrex is banned... but w/e. honestly i've had no idea how to make teams all gen and it's showed lol
the other teams i used stresh built or i made in 5 mins so i wont share those

https://pokepast.es/723c3b7fd18c2676
This one is kinda alright as an idea I think, except its p hard to improof moldy kyub and the team has some weird problems like xern is a huge pain if it gets impostered, ice scales calyrex ice is kinda bad and dialga needs the orb thingy to actually do its job of killing xern. Basically I thought bringing teravolt kyub would be funny cos then i could say "oh no why is this teravolt" and it's actually a pretty solid breaker with para support. Try using it with that dumb para bird or something idk. Could probably be V-create instead of pblades too if you have a better improof.

https://pokepast.es/fba36382f893d2b5
Basically at this point I'd played completely terribly 3 games in a row so I just wanted a matchup win, so I brought drum yvel in the hope he kept bringing prank topsy instead of haze but then he had haze and a fcer that beat it. Ended up being the only game I played mostly well though ironically.