Zacc is locked behind an (admittedly strong) ability and useless item slot. The issue isn't Zacc in and of itself, but the mon when it had access to whatever item and ability it wanted as well. The same logic applies to Natdex/Gen 7 Pdon; you're still able to use it with Red Orb Groudon since it's locked into a set item and ability. The restricted forms of these mons were deemed strong, but balanced enough to still be allowed.
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BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter XxLazzerpenguinxX
- Start date
Guys i think that you all are joking. So let me understand: do u want seriously ban cramorant,which is a really nice and fun surprise for this meta and which is counterable with the protective pads item,as mentioned by champion Leon or just with electric mons like regieleki or zekrom, and allow broken mons such as zacian crowned and the double imposter chansey-blissey?Zacian crowned is really too strong with intrepid sword ,especially if u build a full baton pass team such as hushrug does for example....Why dont we talk about Final gambit? A completely brainless strategy which is in most of the cases unavoidable. Imposter chansey forces players to build stall teams or at least balanced teams,i mean if u are worried about setup u can just use prankster haze or unaware. Im not agree to ban moves likes bolt beak,fishious rend ,v create or glacial lance because they will be easily stopped by fur coat.This is my short thought about the ban discussions... i'd rather play in a more dynamic way ,instead with this changes you are forced to play even more stallish than before
bp scrub
rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...t-before-posting.3663703/page-46#post-8724584
hm i thought it had already been fixed, although I guess they are aware of it at least
Well, lets address the points in your argument one step at a time here.
As for Zacian-Crowned it is by no means a broken pokemon after the restriction due to the fact that they are all running the exact same predictable sets, the most diversity you will almost ever likely see from a zac-c is if it is running hazards or glare/nuzzle, otherwise it loses to fur coat pretty easily. Being able to know your opponent's ability and item guaranteed can be very powerful for a pokemon relying primarily on offense. For HUHSHRUG's bpass team in particular if you really want to quote that as being overpowered, in my experience with fighting huhshrug there are several main flaws with a bpass team that make it tame comparatively to most HO teams right now. By killing or disabling a single core pokemon on the team with trick or gambit tears the whole thing apart, and most of the time when fighting huhshrug I killed his zacian crowned with a pixilate xerneas so in my experience its pretty weird when a steel type loses to a fairy type and yet is somehow busted. I will not deny that it is a powerful pokemon especially with the current move options available, but with those removed it will be heavily nerfed and lose most of its advantageous traits.
If I had to choose which to ban/keep I would most likely vote ban on both bolt beak and glacial lance due to their coverage combination being nearly unstoppable, along with fishious rend being borderline due to its threat posed in rain combined with moves like dragon energy (example palkia). Not sure where to even begin with V-Create due to how long its been in the meta and the fact it actually has drawbacks and fewer pp than beak or rend, I do not think that it should get a pass just due to the fact "well its always been around" but it does make it harder to judge what the meta would be like without it. All of the moves except GLance are resisted by dragon meanwhile GLance is super effective to dragon and also does not make contact which destroys the counterplay that existed for moves like triple axel, which while having a higher possible BP is also slightly inaccurate, but more importantly is affected by kings shield, baneful bunker, and rocky helmet. Other options still exist for ice moves like refrigerate that actually require an ability or item to use effectively instead of being able to slap on an anti-dragon nuke on anything you want.
I do agree with your statement about Final Gambit however, and as a player who likes to dabble in funny HO teams sometimes myself I'll admit that I would greatly miss it if it got banned, but it is undeniably overpowered right now. Sets like the triple threat Eternatus capable of tricking a scarf, using corrosion toxic, and clicking final gambit to decimate multiple walls at once (Original creator unknown, probably fwqef lol) can cripple a team on its own, and since theres around 3-5 really good gambit mons right now you can just pick your opponent apart until they have nothing left capable of stopping a sweeper.
Maybe if the broken moves are banned then some abilities or pokemon like Darm could be unbanned afterwards if it did end up becoming too passive. However, currently we live in a world where you could be hit by an insanely powerful super effective move no matter what wall you're running or just get killed by funny kamikaze move, making consistent teambuilding an absolute nightmare.
Afterthought/Sidenote: I would recommend playing with a wide variety of teams and playstyles to get an in depth look at the current situation on what and what isn't busted right now. Personally I have had a lot of fun playing with teams comprised of randomized pokemon in the current VR, and has helped me to experience most of the pressing issues from multiple perspectives.
If you had read the post you would have noticed that Protective Pads only counters it currently due to a bug in the coding, and will likely be fixed sometime soon. Even with that it still doesn't do much to reduce the efficacy of Cramorant being incredibly hindering on your team and ability to click offensive moves. If you look at magnet pull for example (which is now banned), it was counterable by holding a shed shell so you could still swap out. Shed shell is a very useful item that is being run fairly regularly even in the current meta without magnet pull and was on a decent amount of pokemon, yet even still magnet pull was banned all the same. Just because something has a potential counterplay does not mean that it is not an unhealthy influence in the metagame. Disregarding the massive damper it puts on offense normally, Cramorant is incredibly powerful in the respect that you can avoid improofing almost anything because all you have to do is swap in and let them take para then destroy them with your original pokemon due to the speed loss, or for countering your opponent's sweeper and once they're paralyzed you are free to send in your own chansey or even pikachu and similarly decimate their team all the same.
Starting off with impostor, if offensive pokemon no longer had to worry about improofing then the entire meta right now would be incredibly cancerous and filled to the brim with overpowered sweepers that lack a counter of any sort. Even if chansey and blissey were banned then not much would change considering pre dlc 1 when they were not currently introduced yet people just ran other impostor pokemon and it was basically the same effect. Like many other people have said in regard to this, you know what your opponent is planning because they can only use your own pokemon against yourself. Its pretty funny that you say they make people forced to make balanced teams... when the metagame you're playing is literally called Balanced hackmons, the entire point is to prevent people from running overpowered sets.
As for Zacian-Crowned it is by no means a broken pokemon after the restriction due to the fact that they are all running the exact same predictable sets, the most diversity you will almost ever likely see from a zac-c is if it is running hazards or glare/nuzzle, otherwise it loses to fur coat pretty easily. Being able to know your opponent's ability and item guaranteed can be very powerful for a pokemon relying primarily on offense. For HUHSHRUG's bpass team in particular if you really want to quote that as being overpowered, in my experience with fighting huhshrug there are several main flaws with a bpass team that make it tame comparatively to most HO teams right now. By killing or disabling a single core pokemon on the team with trick or gambit tears the whole thing apart, and most of the time when fighting huhshrug I killed his zacian crowned with a pixilate xerneas so in my experience its pretty weird when a steel type loses to a fairy type and yet is somehow busted. I will not deny that it is a powerful pokemon especially with the current move options available, but with those removed it will be heavily nerfed and lose most of its advantageous traits.
I wish I could live in such an idealistic world as the one you live in, where mold breaker and ability ignoring moves apparently no longer exist. Even with an ability other than moldy most fc mons still get 2 shot or sometimes even ohko'd due to the fact that they are getting hit by super effective moves with over 170 base power. It is completely impossible to name a wall in the game right now that can survive the coverage of all 4 moves at once without using an ability like flash fire, which (while still being weak to moldy) makes it incredibly weak to the other moves due to the lack of fur coat. Since I'm on the topic of the "broken moves", my personal opinion is that having all 4 of them is incredibly unhealthy and puts enormous stress on anyone wanting to run a pokemon that can live more than two hits at most. While none of them are broken on their own and have solid walls to defend from them, the combination of all of them presents basically free coverage on any sweeper that can guarantee a supereffective hit on almost every pokemon. Personally I don't know of a perfect or even good solution to the issue since it is very difficult to give an almost arbitrary label on which are causing the problem specifically since it lies in the combination of all of them. It isn't surprising the council has been unable to come to a conclusion when the problem is as complicated as this.
If I had to choose which to ban/keep I would most likely vote ban on both bolt beak and glacial lance due to their coverage combination being nearly unstoppable, along with fishious rend being borderline due to its threat posed in rain combined with moves like dragon energy (example palkia). Not sure where to even begin with V-Create due to how long its been in the meta and the fact it actually has drawbacks and fewer pp than beak or rend, I do not think that it should get a pass just due to the fact "well its always been around" but it does make it harder to judge what the meta would be like without it. All of the moves except GLance are resisted by dragon meanwhile GLance is super effective to dragon and also does not make contact which destroys the counterplay that existed for moves like triple axel, which while having a higher possible BP is also slightly inaccurate, but more importantly is affected by kings shield, baneful bunker, and rocky helmet. Other options still exist for ice moves like refrigerate that actually require an ability or item to use effectively instead of being able to slap on an anti-dragon nuke on anything you want.
I do agree with your statement about Final Gambit however, and as a player who likes to dabble in funny HO teams sometimes myself I'll admit that I would greatly miss it if it got banned, but it is undeniably overpowered right now. Sets like the triple threat Eternatus capable of tricking a scarf, using corrosion toxic, and clicking final gambit to decimate multiple walls at once (Original creator unknown, probably fwqef lol) can cripple a team on its own, and since theres around 3-5 really good gambit mons right now you can just pick your opponent apart until they have nothing left capable of stopping a sweeper.
Maybe if the broken moves are banned then some abilities or pokemon like Darm could be unbanned afterwards if it did end up becoming too passive. However, currently we live in a world where you could be hit by an insanely powerful super effective move no matter what wall you're running or just get killed by funny kamikaze move, making consistent teambuilding an absolute nightmare.
Afterthought/Sidenote: I would recommend playing with a wide variety of teams and playstyles to get an in depth look at the current situation on what and what isn't busted right now. Personally I have had a lot of fun playing with teams comprised of randomized pokemon in the current VR, and has helped me to experience most of the pressing issues from multiple perspectives.
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Well,let me answer you: yes u re right the tier is called balanced hackmons maybe i choosed a wrong term ,i meant that in this tier people usually play stall/defensive teams which i dont particularly like....So lets start with cramorant,what about his defenses? He can be easily taken off by eletric pokemons which are immune to paralysis,at worst u get a single para mons.If u are so worried about the para which is legit ,u can run a support pokemon with aromateraphy or heal bell,i dont see any problem with cramorant honestly. Imposter chansey? Yes he's just a mon with your own moves with 5 pp each..however he has 700 hp and defenses boosted by eviolite.Not only .....running chansey imposter u know exactly your opponent sets (only switching chansey everytime)which is not so great because u know how to counterplay. Because im coeherent with myself i never used chansey in my teams,or better, imposter chansey. Talking about the 4 irresistible moves ,tell a me a physical pokemon set which includes all of them ,maybe u can tell me zacian crowned and then i say" yes u re right ,thats why zacian crowned is broken".
Quite frankly I think banning Cam is absurd, I have been seeing it around some games and I have only really lost once with it on the other team but that wasn't even cause of the cam. Pokemon such poison heal or quick feet ones really have nothing to worry about, priority mons also don't have worry about much, and even when a person does switch I usually ko it in just one attack, if it is sash'd then its broken by rocks which is unlikely since most run rocky helmet. You can even predict the switch, set up, then ohko it. I think running protective pads is a stupid solution since sacrificing an item slot just for this one mon isn't really necessary. I have not been seeing it around very frequently for good a reason which is that its only real purpose is switching, its incredibly weak agasint offensive teams cause it usually just gets one shot and can only para one mon at most. If you want a good item counter then put lum berry on your sweeper, cures para and if they don't have a cam then it cures any other aliment. I'm not saying Cam isn't an effective mon, mind you, I can see the use of this thing but its not so metabreaking that everyone has it or needs a direct counter for it. I really doubt it will every be suspect tested and a demand for one wont be taken very seriously.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
Cram is Balanced by its limitations, it must be switched out / in, and if you switch it in they can switch in the Pokémon it already paralyzed earlier and while the damage of 41% is high.
If it doesn’t make contact (I.e. Glacial Lance / Photon Geyser), it only deals 25%, and with a recovery move, then it can usually, take out Cramorant, or force it out.
Flame Orb mons like Zacian / Lunala, and PHealers, not to mention some Magic Guard users with a status Orb to absorb status like Toxic Orb Ho-Oh, can definitely handle it, as long as the first two (Flame Orb / PHealers), are not low on HP.
We need to only focus on if it makes the game uncompetitive to determine a ban. I think it makes the game competitive bc it serves as a check to prevent Offense from taking over. It, like Imposter, is balanced bc the ability is predictable and unlike Imposter Cram has to heal, and then switch out, while Imposter can potentially stay in and be a more long-term issue.
Sometimes paralysis even helps bc it makes your Pokémon slow enough to take advantage of using Core Enforcer, Spectral Thief, Rapid Spin (going after set-up / hazards are set), and have the slowest pivot. Yes it doesn’t often benefit you, but in some cases it does, I know for me it has helped like paralyzing my Ice Scales Eternatus, and being able to Core Enforcer PHeal Regigigas when I pivoted it in when their team sent in Regigigas the same turn. Now they were faster before setting up with Shift Gear and I could force it out by removing its ability.
Cram is just good enough to be used, but I wouldn’t say too good to be removed...
If it doesn’t make contact (I.e. Glacial Lance / Photon Geyser), it only deals 25%, and with a recovery move, then it can usually, take out Cramorant, or force it out.
Flame Orb mons like Zacian / Lunala, and PHealers, not to mention some Magic Guard users with a status Orb to absorb status like Toxic Orb Ho-Oh, can definitely handle it, as long as the first two (Flame Orb / PHealers), are not low on HP.
We need to only focus on if it makes the game uncompetitive to determine a ban. I think it makes the game competitive bc it serves as a check to prevent Offense from taking over. It, like Imposter, is balanced bc the ability is predictable and unlike Imposter Cram has to heal, and then switch out, while Imposter can potentially stay in and be a more long-term issue.
Sometimes paralysis even helps bc it makes your Pokémon slow enough to take advantage of using Core Enforcer, Spectral Thief, Rapid Spin (going after set-up / hazards are set), and have the slowest pivot. Yes it doesn’t often benefit you, but in some cases it does, I know for me it has helped like paralyzing my Ice Scales Eternatus, and being able to Core Enforcer PHeal Regigigas when I pivoted it in when their team sent in Regigigas the same turn. Now they were faster before setting up with Shift Gear and I could force it out by removing its ability.
Cram is just good enough to be used, but I wouldn’t say too good to be removed...
my take on cramorant is that currently it is inherently uncompetitive in the same way as innards out last gen was. while yes you can make the case that gulp missile is much weaker than innards and a number of mons get around para, the core aspect is the same: if you have a pokemon that you can't let get paralyzed, you literally can't click attacks unless you have heal bell in the back. letting your mon take the para and then curing it somehow is the only way around it-- there is no other counterplay. given how annoying bell has historically been to fit and use on bh teams i think this is pretty dumb. imposter really isn't comparable to this cause it doesn't discourage you from being out unless you have 0 counterplay (ladder player teams) or they have, like, pikachu.
that said, i don't think banning cramorant now is the solution. cramorant is an extremely reactive pokemon and i do see it possibly getting weaker if the stronger offensive moves are removed from the metagame, whether that be through poison heal mons being easier to fit, heal bell/misty surge/other status removal being more legitimate options, or increased usage in techs like toxic. meanwhile, banning cramorant now would do absolutely nothing to weaken the influence of bolt beak and glacial lance, and would if anything make them even more annoying because you remove a counter to them.
this is all
that said, i don't think banning cramorant now is the solution. cramorant is an extremely reactive pokemon and i do see it possibly getting weaker if the stronger offensive moves are removed from the metagame, whether that be through poison heal mons being easier to fit, heal bell/misty surge/other status removal being more legitimate options, or increased usage in techs like toxic. meanwhile, banning cramorant now would do absolutely nothing to weaken the influence of bolt beak and glacial lance, and would if anything make them even more annoying because you remove a counter to them.
this is all
I might have been slightly misleading in my approach so I'll apologize for that. Cramorant definitely should NOT be banned under the current circumstances because like you said it is one of the few counterplays to the broken moves. It is hard to gauge what is and isn't broken under the current mess of everything being so out of control, so it's best to take things one step at a time. In my opinion the best course of action would be to handle the situation with the moves, then wait for the meta to settle for a bit and then come back to look at final gambit as well. These changes would make a drastic shift on how the meta is played and quite frankly no one can hope to predict what exactly might happen. The increase of PH mons due to the lessening need to run multiple fc/unaware/prankster walls just to survive is definitely a possibility I did not personally take into consideration.
On the other hand as someone who has tested playing around with Cramorant for fun and got an account to #2 on the ladder while messing around, I can say that one of the most common ways that Cramorant ends up dying currently is due to bolt beak, which guarantees an ohko pretty easily, with GLance being a close second due to being a strong neutral attack. Due to the removal of almost every single offense running bolt beak as coverage I can also foresee it becoming a good amount stronger. However this is just a guess and the best thing to do is just wait until then and see if it becomes a bigger problem, while in my opinion it is highly uncompetitive I do not think it warrants a ban yet but it does deserve to be keeping an eye on in the future.
But regardless that is the last I have to say on the matter, hopefully this cleared up a little more about what I had meant when I originally addressed the issue of Cramorant.
On the other hand as someone who has tested playing around with Cramorant for fun and got an account to #2 on the ladder while messing around, I can say that one of the most common ways that Cramorant ends up dying currently is due to bolt beak, which guarantees an ohko pretty easily, with GLance being a close second due to being a strong neutral attack. Due to the removal of almost every single offense running bolt beak as coverage I can also foresee it becoming a good amount stronger. However this is just a guess and the best thing to do is just wait until then and see if it becomes a bigger problem, while in my opinion it is highly uncompetitive I do not think it warrants a ban yet but it does deserve to be keeping an eye on in the future.
I might be misunderstanding, but you look to be implying that it doesn't paralyze unless it makes contact, which is not the case as it activates on any hit.
But regardless that is the last I have to say on the matter, hopefully this cleared up a little more about what I had meant when I originally addressed the issue of Cramorant.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
I just meant, Rocky Helmet makes it 41% if you hit with a contact move, but yes I didn’t acknowledge Paralysis either way so I see how it could have meant either or both.
In regards to Cram, it is still hit by Volt Switch, and the next best Electric physical move: Bolt Strike would easily serve as a replacement for Bolt Beak.
The advantage being that it would do even more than Bolt Beak, bc if you get paralyzed, your Bolt Beak is cut in half, while Bolt Strike maintains its full power, this is key bc if you are slower it can also Roost to reduce its weakness, making a Bolt Beak only 85 base power, x2 effective, while Bolt Strike is 130 x 2.
So in some cases Bolt Strike is better, especially if it can Paralyze 20% of the time it hits, making Cramorant slower, and unable to Roost before it is struck (thus it will stay 4x weak for a pretty guaranteed KO).
Anyways, I agree that the moves are a priority, bc unlike Cram which only mattered when I made it prominent last month, the moves have been an issue since the beginning of the generation, and for V-Create it has been questionable since Gen 5.
Final Gambit is an offensive, and Defensive move. It’s somewhere between Destiny Bond, Explosion, and Innards Out, and that should be looked at, bc it necessitates Ghosts, and even then Soak and Scrappy can negate that “solution”.
Let’s look at the Attack damaging moves, then Final Gambit, and then the rest.
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Sweet Jesus
Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
To me, nothing seems broken right now. There is a lot of very powerful mons and sets, more that can be countered with a 3 pokemon defensive core on a balanced team, but not a single threat defines the meta to a point where you're forced to run one of 2 or 3 sets just to counter it. I've been playing online since 2012 and I've been playing BH since gen 6 and from my experience I can tell the current meta is balanced right now. Bolt beak and glacial lance are probably the combination that could seem banworthy, but there are far too many opitions that deal with that combination to consider banning one of the 2. There are only 2 viable mons that get a proper STAB on bolt beak, 2 that get a STAB on glacial lance and I'll add zacian-C to the list of very dangerous users for obvious reasons (Total of 5 mons that can hit really hard with one of the moves). There are 3 abilities that make you immune to electric type attacks, fur coat and eviolite can help many walls that takes both moves for neutral damage to avoid the 2hko, prankster can lower the power of bolt beak to recover safely (especialy with strength sap) and there is a plethora of mons that can run one of these strategies. Sure some of these sets can be bypassed by sets with mold breaker or other strategies, but none of them are overpowerful and none of them come without sacrificing kills on other defensive sets.
I play nearly exclusively with balanced teams (usualy 3-4 mon defensive core and 2-3 offensive mons) in the 1700+ elo bracket and the great majority of my games (like 80%) are either 80+ move games or aborted 80+ move games because one of the players tried something balsy to avoid the stalling situation. To claim we need to ban offensive threats is complete nonsense to me. The way a metagame is built is through adaptation to the strongest threats. Of course there are too many threats to counter every single one with a 3 mon defensive core, but that's the way it always has been and the way it should be. If your definition of a balanced tier is defined by the pleasure of knowing you've built the perfect defensive core that isn't match-up dependant, then you are aiming to create a stall only metagame.
As for cramorant, I understand it creates an awkward situation as it's ability is quite unique and messes up many of the main strategies, but it's originality should not be confused with being broken. It should just be accepted as a new mechanic that changes the tier. The tier offers plenty of options to deal with cramorant safely, many of which are clearly unbalanced in terms of popularity vs. viability ratio. The main way to defeat cramorant is to pack your team with electric wallbreakers, poison healers, comatose users or guts/quick feet attackers. However, aromatherapy and misty surge strategies are amazing strategies that people overlook because they are addicted to poison heal or can't imagine sacrificing a move or an ability to one of those. Cramorant also just paralyzes you and deals 25% damage, many mons can just power through it or pack a lum berry if they have the movepool to guarantee an ohko. Shift gear also counters the speed loss in a single move and can be used in cramorant's face, sometimes more than once before attacking it. Parting shot, baton pass and teleport should also be considered on every mon that can be paralyzed over the attacking pivot moves. I'd also add that paralysis is only good 90% of the time in this tier. If you end up in a rather common pp stall situation, you'll be mad your opponent has a paralyzed mon and not you.
Finaly, the argument I think will be mainly overlooked when discussing cramorant is that there is a 6 mon limit per team and cramorant uses up one of them only for it's ablility! Cramorant only has 1 viable offensive move in fishious rend coupled with mediocre attack and often unlocks the move's real power only after paralyzing a foe. Although his defensive typing is great, his defensive stats coupled with the fact he can't use any other ability other defensive mons usualy use (fur coat, prankster, magic bounce, ice scales, poison heal, regen, etc.) means he is quite prone to become an easily ohko'd literal sitting duck. A player that chooses to use cramorant accepts he is practicaly sacrficing a pokemon slot just to paralyze stuff easily. Imo cramorant's best moveslot usage is on spreading or removing hazards, but hazard setting sets are never killing any bouncers and cramorant's sacrificing nature makes him a mediocre hazard remover in the long run. As stated above it is a huge challenge to fit a counter to every threat and offensive mons with 6 slots and using one for cramorant just makes it even harder meaning you're probably even more match-up dependant or straight up stalling in which case paralysis is not that good.
I feel everytime something becomes suspected it always gets banned regardless of if it's actualy broken (how the hell did shedinja get banned?). Imo, something should only be banned because it forces you to pack one of the 2 or 3 same sets in every single team (or is basicaly ustoppable). Defining the metagame (like cramorant probably will) is not banworthy if there is a plethora of ways to deal with the threat.
I play nearly exclusively with balanced teams (usualy 3-4 mon defensive core and 2-3 offensive mons) in the 1700+ elo bracket and the great majority of my games (like 80%) are either 80+ move games or aborted 80+ move games because one of the players tried something balsy to avoid the stalling situation. To claim we need to ban offensive threats is complete nonsense to me. The way a metagame is built is through adaptation to the strongest threats. Of course there are too many threats to counter every single one with a 3 mon defensive core, but that's the way it always has been and the way it should be. If your definition of a balanced tier is defined by the pleasure of knowing you've built the perfect defensive core that isn't match-up dependant, then you are aiming to create a stall only metagame.
As for cramorant, I understand it creates an awkward situation as it's ability is quite unique and messes up many of the main strategies, but it's originality should not be confused with being broken. It should just be accepted as a new mechanic that changes the tier. The tier offers plenty of options to deal with cramorant safely, many of which are clearly unbalanced in terms of popularity vs. viability ratio. The main way to defeat cramorant is to pack your team with electric wallbreakers, poison healers, comatose users or guts/quick feet attackers. However, aromatherapy and misty surge strategies are amazing strategies that people overlook because they are addicted to poison heal or can't imagine sacrificing a move or an ability to one of those. Cramorant also just paralyzes you and deals 25% damage, many mons can just power through it or pack a lum berry if they have the movepool to guarantee an ohko. Shift gear also counters the speed loss in a single move and can be used in cramorant's face, sometimes more than once before attacking it. Parting shot, baton pass and teleport should also be considered on every mon that can be paralyzed over the attacking pivot moves. I'd also add that paralysis is only good 90% of the time in this tier. If you end up in a rather common pp stall situation, you'll be mad your opponent has a paralyzed mon and not you.
Finaly, the argument I think will be mainly overlooked when discussing cramorant is that there is a 6 mon limit per team and cramorant uses up one of them only for it's ablility! Cramorant only has 1 viable offensive move in fishious rend coupled with mediocre attack and often unlocks the move's real power only after paralyzing a foe. Although his defensive typing is great, his defensive stats coupled with the fact he can't use any other ability other defensive mons usualy use (fur coat, prankster, magic bounce, ice scales, poison heal, regen, etc.) means he is quite prone to become an easily ohko'd literal sitting duck. A player that chooses to use cramorant accepts he is practicaly sacrficing a pokemon slot just to paralyze stuff easily. Imo cramorant's best moveslot usage is on spreading or removing hazards, but hazard setting sets are never killing any bouncers and cramorant's sacrificing nature makes him a mediocre hazard remover in the long run. As stated above it is a huge challenge to fit a counter to every threat and offensive mons with 6 slots and using one for cramorant just makes it even harder meaning you're probably even more match-up dependant or straight up stalling in which case paralysis is not that good.
I feel everytime something becomes suspected it always gets banned regardless of if it's actualy broken (how the hell did shedinja get banned?). Imo, something should only be banned because it forces you to pack one of the 2 or 3 same sets in every single team (or is basicaly ustoppable). Defining the metagame (like cramorant probably will) is not banworthy if there is a plethora of ways to deal with the threat.
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Sweet Jesus
Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
Double posting like a boss, but it's for different purposes so yeah...
Here's some sets you might not have thought of that work great in this cramorant meta and show you can adapt to the bird without banning it:
Groudon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Psycho Shift/Toxic
- Shift Gear
- Recover
Using a status'd mon is a great way to avoid paralysis. Groudon can easily fucntion with a single attacking move since there's like two viable mons that resist it (golisopod and buzzwole). Your second moves cripples walls and prankster users trying to stop you from sweeping with a burn or toxic, especialy since everything naturaly immune to these status's is weak to thousand arrows and will eventualy die to it even without a shift gear. You don't even need to worry about bouncers as you are yourself already burned. You can even afford to put recover which is something very few sweepers can afford and will assure you your opponent can't just stall you out with burn and residual damage.
Raikou @ Leftovers/Safety goggles
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry
- Spectral Thief
- Recover
Raikou isn't even considered in the BH viability rankings because he's seen as offensive, but in BH, raikou works great as a special wall where his only weakness is very rarely exploited, especialy on the special side. Walls are among the sets that Cramorant loves to switch-in because they often can't ohko or 2hko him and none of them are electric. Well raikou is an exception and his 90Hp and 100 Sp.d stats are decent enough to function as a special wall with ice scales since moongeist beam and photon geyser are often replaced with astral barrage and expanding force/psystrike (which is affected by ice scales btw). Volt switch is a stabbed pivoting move coupled with ice beam to hit grounds trying to stop you from pivoting and zekrom (or freeze-dry if you worry of swampert). Spectral thief counters any special threat trying to set up as there's barely none who are immune. Using a bold nature can also make a decent answer to regielki in which case you might want to pack safety goggles since they often carry mold breaker spore. Unfortunately, you don't really damage regielki much so you better carry a good spinner as they could just set up hazards in your face. Regenvest is also a viable option although not capable of tanking as much since raikou's defensive stats are just good, not amazing.
Here's some sets you might not have thought of that work great in this cramorant meta and show you can adapt to the bird without banning it:
Groudon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Psycho Shift/Toxic
- Shift Gear
- Recover
Using a status'd mon is a great way to avoid paralysis. Groudon can easily fucntion with a single attacking move since there's like two viable mons that resist it (golisopod and buzzwole). Your second moves cripples walls and prankster users trying to stop you from sweeping with a burn or toxic, especialy since everything naturaly immune to these status's is weak to thousand arrows and will eventualy die to it even without a shift gear. You don't even need to worry about bouncers as you are yourself already burned. You can even afford to put recover which is something very few sweepers can afford and will assure you your opponent can't just stall you out with burn and residual damage.
Raikou @ Leftovers/Safety goggles
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry
- Spectral Thief
- Recover
Raikou isn't even considered in the BH viability rankings because he's seen as offensive, but in BH, raikou works great as a special wall where his only weakness is very rarely exploited, especialy on the special side. Walls are among the sets that Cramorant loves to switch-in because they often can't ohko or 2hko him and none of them are electric. Well raikou is an exception and his 90Hp and 100 Sp.d stats are decent enough to function as a special wall with ice scales since moongeist beam and photon geyser are often replaced with astral barrage and expanding force/psystrike (which is affected by ice scales btw). Volt switch is a stabbed pivoting move coupled with ice beam to hit grounds trying to stop you from pivoting and zekrom (or freeze-dry if you worry of swampert). Spectral thief counters any special threat trying to set up as there's barely none who are immune. Using a bold nature can also make a decent answer to regielki in which case you might want to pack safety goggles since they often carry mold breaker spore. Unfortunately, you don't really damage regielki much so you better carry a good spinner as they could just set up hazards in your face. Regenvest is also a viable option although not capable of tanking as much since raikou's defensive stats are just good, not amazing.
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Shed got banned because of the power of Timbs. Hazards were a major source of counterplay for shed, and shed teams had to work to fit in defog or rapid spin while some other teams were less heavily impacted by them. That's far less important now thanks to HDB. Protective Pads as an alternative item was great for Shed before thanks to Baneful/Spiky, but now you don't even need to do that because you can just run funny Pain Split over Endeavor. In that scenario, the only way you'd be able to get rid of shed is with a surprise burn/toxic, which is unlikely, moldy moves, which aren't quite that common nowadays (why bypass Fur Coat when you can click 170BP funny move twice and kill anyway), managing to koff it (but Shed teams piloted well will scout that + have a koff absorber), and hail/sand. I've seen zero hail teams in the year+ that we've had this meta, and between Natdex and Gen 8, I've only seen Onyx Onix and myself build a sand team, much less one that's actually done well on ladder. Shed was already in a spot where even top players saw it as suspect worthy back in Gen 7, and Uggs were just the straw to break the camel's back.
Also, Dynamax went through a suspect a good bit of time before it was banned. It wasn't banned the first time around, but as the meta evolved and DLC mons + moves came in, it became too much even for BH. Shed itself was suspected in Gen 7 and wasn't banned.
Either way, the complaint about BH banning things in most of its suspects doesn't really make much sense, because not only do other metas' suspect tests often result in bans, BH has a far higher and varied offensive power ceiling than the rest of the game, with a defensive one that is proportionately less extreme or varied. On top of that, this post details just how much more offensive capability got added to the game as opposed to defensive, and I've missed some things such as Regieleki and Ice Rider as offensive additions. When you have like 15+ crazy offensive mons, attacks and abilities added to the game, of course it's going to make things rather unbalanced. Fur Coat on the fattest mons around meant nothing in the face of Mold Breaker + funny busted coverage + Choice Band, or Gorilla Tactics banded Zacian. People don't want the ability to have matchups completely out of the meta, or for a set few mons to counter everything. But when the fattest walls around can't even wall some random set that decides to slap on V-Create 2.0, then there's clearly an imbalance. Matchups are always going to be a thing in pokemon, but the degree to which this meta has become matchup-dependent is ridiculous compared not only to other metas, but even to past generations of BH.
Also double posting here, but I've had some thoughts in mind and wanted to see what others think.
Most of the big players, I think, can agree that BH is in a rather dumb state right now, namely due to funny nuke moves. While Gen 8 has seen some great stuff like defensive Ho-Oh getting to use some abilities again (except oops funny fossil move), Metronome Xerneas (orz), Palkia not just existing but even being a top threat in the meta, Resh being a solid, very flexible mon, etc, it's just such an inconsistent mess in its current form. Pretty much all the players who don't want Cram around also agree that with the nukes here, Cram isn't quite as huge of a problem as it could be (and is nowhere near as nasty as those moves). Gambit is funny to play with, but is another big problem, albeit also probably not at the level of the other nuke moves. More or less the general consensus is that click button go boom isn't a very fun environment.
So, that being said, the problem arises in exactly what to do about these moves. a loser already mentioned that the BH council's still trying to figure out how to move forward, but I'm curious to see what the rest of you think. I'm in a weird spot where, despite fossil moves in a vacuum being undeniably more broken, Glacial Lance is the thing I hate to see most. While any set can slap on nasty coverage in the form of fossil moves and, to a lesser extent, V-Create, Lance is the straw that breaks the camel's back. The thing that more or less kept VFB in check earlier on in the meta was FC dragons, with a lesser extent of FC steel. While those three moves held crazy coverage, the counterplay against dragons required either some actual thought in chipping them down or hitting them with special threats, or using moves like Icicle Spear (far less reliable than Lance) Icicle Crash (less powerful, and less reliable by virtue of accuracy), and Triple Axel (less reliable, plus you kill yourself against Rocky Helmet).
This was generally far easier to manage, and the only mixed attackers I can think of that'd run special Dragon moves would be Dragon Energy Palkia and Reshiram. These mons, while quite strong, would be much easier to handle than a random combination of Lance + VFB on every other physical mon. That being said, fossil moves are still definitely better than Lance, and most of us agree that any of the four moves in isolation wouldn't be worthy of a ban. If I had to pick one to get rid of, though, it'd definitely be Lance.
Personally, though, in order of overall strength, I'd rank the moves as follows:
1: Bolt Beak (best coverage in combination with other moves, deletes flying types from the meta)
2: Fishious Rend (somewhat less optimal coverage when paired with other moves, but has the notable advantage of rain teams boosting its power)
3: Glacial Lance (Lower PP and BP than fossil moves)
4: V-Create (Tied for least PP of the 4, only one with a chance to screw you over with RNG, and has an actual drawback in stat drops)
While this is extremely unlikely, I think a complex ban keeping you from slapping a ton of these moves together could be the best option in that we get to keep these moves for use on cool mons like Zekrom and Caly-Ice, while mitigating the effect of their combination being nigh unwallable. It's highly unlikely, but overall seems best to me. Bolt Beak is the strongest of the moves to my mind, but banning it would still leave some extremely hard to wall coverage combinations from the remaining three. Glance is the one that finally pushed the combination past its breaking point, but is in no way a broken move in and of itself the way that Octolock or DIB are.
So how should we deal with these moves?Leave your thoughts in the comments below, and only 73% of my viewers are subscribed, so please smash that like button and consider subscribing.
Most of the big players, I think, can agree that BH is in a rather dumb state right now, namely due to funny nuke moves. While Gen 8 has seen some great stuff like defensive Ho-Oh getting to use some abilities again (except oops funny fossil move), Metronome Xerneas (orz), Palkia not just existing but even being a top threat in the meta, Resh being a solid, very flexible mon, etc, it's just such an inconsistent mess in its current form. Pretty much all the players who don't want Cram around also agree that with the nukes here, Cram isn't quite as huge of a problem as it could be (and is nowhere near as nasty as those moves). Gambit is funny to play with, but is another big problem, albeit also probably not at the level of the other nuke moves. More or less the general consensus is that click button go boom isn't a very fun environment.
So, that being said, the problem arises in exactly what to do about these moves. a loser already mentioned that the BH council's still trying to figure out how to move forward, but I'm curious to see what the rest of you think. I'm in a weird spot where, despite fossil moves in a vacuum being undeniably more broken, Glacial Lance is the thing I hate to see most. While any set can slap on nasty coverage in the form of fossil moves and, to a lesser extent, V-Create, Lance is the straw that breaks the camel's back. The thing that more or less kept VFB in check earlier on in the meta was FC dragons, with a lesser extent of FC steel. While those three moves held crazy coverage, the counterplay against dragons required either some actual thought in chipping them down or hitting them with special threats, or using moves like Icicle Spear (far less reliable than Lance) Icicle Crash (less powerful, and less reliable by virtue of accuracy), and Triple Axel (less reliable, plus you kill yourself against Rocky Helmet).
This was generally far easier to manage, and the only mixed attackers I can think of that'd run special Dragon moves would be Dragon Energy Palkia and Reshiram. These mons, while quite strong, would be much easier to handle than a random combination of Lance + VFB on every other physical mon. That being said, fossil moves are still definitely better than Lance, and most of us agree that any of the four moves in isolation wouldn't be worthy of a ban. If I had to pick one to get rid of, though, it'd definitely be Lance.
Personally, though, in order of overall strength, I'd rank the moves as follows:
1: Bolt Beak (best coverage in combination with other moves, deletes flying types from the meta)
2: Fishious Rend (somewhat less optimal coverage when paired with other moves, but has the notable advantage of rain teams boosting its power)
3: Glacial Lance (Lower PP and BP than fossil moves)
4: V-Create (Tied for least PP of the 4, only one with a chance to screw you over with RNG, and has an actual drawback in stat drops)
While this is extremely unlikely, I think a complex ban keeping you from slapping a ton of these moves together could be the best option in that we get to keep these moves for use on cool mons like Zekrom and Caly-Ice, while mitigating the effect of their combination being nigh unwallable. It's highly unlikely, but overall seems best to me. Bolt Beak is the strongest of the moves to my mind, but banning it would still leave some extremely hard to wall coverage combinations from the remaining three. Glance is the one that finally pushed the combination past its breaking point, but is in no way a broken move in and of itself the way that Octolock or DIB are.
So how should we deal with these moves?
Sweet Jesus
Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
I'm not trying to bring back shed nor am I saying we should aim to be as close as possible to pure hackmons, I think many things got banned for good reasons, but everytime we ban something, it will expose other things as broken and doesn't necessarily make the meta more balanced. For example, shed use to be a great counter to bolt beak and glacial lance but banning it is a small part of what makes those moves seem broken. By definition a metagame is created by using and countering dominant strategies so there will always be dominant strategies. As long as something doesn't cause people to always run one of the 2 or 3 same sets to counter that one threat, I don't think it limits creativity enough to be banworthy. If we ban bolt beak, the best way to ohko cramorant will disappear and I bet we'll ban him too because that will have been the tipping point. As for the offensive pool vs defensive pool, as stated in my last post, I still end up stalling with balanced teams all the time which I think indicates the meta isn't overly offensive more than any theoretical analysis. You can find differences with last gens in both the offensive and defencive options all day, the fact is, last gen metas were not examples of perfectly balanced metas we should be trying to recreate and mostly it's very hard to determine how balanced the tier is without playing it and playing the tier does not feel like offense is overpowered.
For the record in your shed argument, you ignored mold breaker itself, trick + choice item, entrainment, no guard + inferno, regen mons that eat pain split all day, prankster d bond, the fact shed's presence is enough to make sunsteel strike, moongeist beam and photon geyser common (balancing the tier as they replace other coverage moves on offensive mons), the fact you can run weather without centering your team around it, the fact sweepers can run toxic as a mix-up (see groudon set in previous post), the fact shed is likely to run a contact move to finish things off and arguably leech seed and taunt. And now we even have cramorant which shed basicaly can't even attack with any move other than pain split. Once again though, not trying to bring shed back, no need to convince me.
EDIT: didn't understand the term moldy moves at first, but you did ignore mold breaker itself and still dissmissed the 3 moves as rare when they absolutely aren't and are very viable and simple options. Same goes for the other strategy you dismiss as gimmicky which are made more viable and less gimmicky by shed's presence in the tier.
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I... didn't miss mold breaker and moldy moves. I specifically mentioned them; in fact, they're literally the first thing I mentioned after status. Trick + choice is nice, but it's more valuable to cripple some wall than shed. Entrainment is very rare outside of normalize sets, but won't do anything because shed switches out. No Guard just isn't used and is generally reserved for cheese status spam sets. I'd go on, but the point is that most of the counterplay you described either doesn't actually do anything to shed or sacrifices too much in the way of a team/ability/move slot to actually be worth it in most cases.
Either way, things being banned would naturally show other things as being strong or even broken because they get used more, as more attention settles onto them. The idea that "banning x broken thing because it's broken doesn't actually help the meta be balanced because other stuff is broken" doesn't really play out. Ray, PDon, and CFZ moves getting banned definitely made Gen 7 BH more balanced, even if things like species spam and Shed made things an absolute mess after those removals. Of course things rise to prominence after other things in a similar role get banned. Whether they're actually broken or not is left to be seen afterwards, and they'll be handled accordingly. It just seems like you're arguing against banning broken things that aren't Brawl Meta Knight level broken because the meta won't actually be balanced after they're gone, which is... a weird take. Most people agree that Cram isn't broken right now, though it's definitely something a lot of people dislike. But saying that NOTHING is broken right now, when you just have funny nuke moves with perfect coverage plaguing the meta? That's a whole other level of weird take.
Hi guys,i want to share with you a really funny set which i played in the BH ladder. I start by saying that this set cant work in every game of course ,maybe its a little bit situational ,but im sure it works especially in stall games
Melmetal @ Rocky Helmet/Shed shell
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Strength Sap
- Spikes
- Spectral Thief
- Anchor Shot
Well, liquid ooze is so funny,i choose melmetal because of his bulkiness,ad surely for his really nice attack which makes the stenght sap bounced damage even more powerful,in fact a magic bounce pokemon will lose exactly 423 Hp if hitten by strenght sap (in most cases this means 1hitko),this little trick works against also with any triage abuser or against any pokemon who knows strenght sap. Spikes is just an utility move to put more pressure and to "force" a magic bounce pokemon swich in.(If your opponent has it of course).However he can be useful to do cheap damages with the rocky helmet but it can be annoying also against imposter chansey.... Well melmetal what do u want to say to a magic bounce abuser? "Well,enjoy your short life:) "
Melmetal @ Rocky Helmet/Shed shell
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Strength Sap
- Spikes
- Spectral Thief
- Anchor Shot
Well, liquid ooze is so funny,i choose melmetal because of his bulkiness,ad surely for his really nice attack which makes the stenght sap bounced damage even more powerful,in fact a magic bounce pokemon will lose exactly 423 Hp if hitten by strenght sap (in most cases this means 1hitko),this little trick works against also with any triage abuser or against any pokemon who knows strenght sap. Spikes is just an utility move to put more pressure and to "force" a magic bounce pokemon swich in.(If your opponent has it of course).However he can be useful to do cheap damages with the rocky helmet but it can be annoying also against imposter chansey.... Well melmetal what do u want to say to a magic bounce abuser? "Well,enjoy your short life:) "
Speaking of Guts sets, I also have one that I find fun to use. (also I'm not good at this meta so take everything I say with a bucketful of salt)
Zamazenta @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Shift Gear
- Close Combat
- Glacial Lance
- Bolt Beak
The set let you sweep and break at the same time. Adamant Guts-boosted CC is obscenely powerful and heavily dent anything without Fur Coat. GLance destroys Zygod and Etern and hits other dragons like Giratina. Beak rounds out my coverage by destroying Ho-Oh, Yveltal, and Lugia. This thing can throw out attacks early-game and sweep lategame, and you are stronger than Impostor because they don't have Flame Orb. Although this is no SD set a Shift Gear- and Guts-boosted attack can destroy almost anything with the appropriate coverage move. It's also not too hard to improof as the impostor is not nearly as strong as you due to not being burned. Fur Coat Reshy or Solgaleo/NDM can take hits from even a +2 impostor pretty comfortably, and Lugia actually narrowly avoids being 2HKOed at +1 if running max defense and leftovers (nvm because the calc defaulted to it having multiscale. FC Giratina can do it too).
Yes this is another funny STAB+Glance+VFB set. But hey, they're getting banned because they're too good, and if they are still here might as well use them, right?
Disclaimer: I don't think trapping moves are a problem, like, at all. They are a very healthy part of the metagame. I'm just saying that games get boring sometimes with two Pokemon just waiting for someone's PP runs out.
Finally, to the topic at hand: four boom buttons.
I think V-Create is fine because of its low PP, nasty side effect, and the fact that Fire resists aren't far or few between and you'll probably find that you ended up with one on your team anyway.
I don't really care about Rend and I can do with or without it. Outclassed by Beak imo
Glacial Lance... this one is tricky for me to find an opinion on. Like Lunatic Hai said, GLance is definately not broken by itself, but the combination of it with another funny nuke button (see: the Zama set earlier in this post) really makes it difficult to deal with. Not to mention that Ice is arguably one of the best offensive typings ever. It also directly affects the viability of bulky dragons because they become liabilities with a GLance user on the opposing team. However, bulky dragons are still important to have to deal with the other three dummy moves (damn I suddenly understand why someone wanted to raise Swampert on the VR), and this creates a dilemma: GLance users can and will abuse the bulky dragons on the opposing team that are forced on their team and use them for setup turns, punching holes, etc. However, GLance is definaly fine by itself, and I don't want to something banned because "something else is broken because this exists".
Finally, Bolt Beak. I think that this move is the most broken of the four, boasting incredible neutral coverage, an effective 170 BP, and almost unstoppable coverage with Glance. However, unlike GLance, Bolt Beak is still pretty nutty by itself, often finding itself on most, if not nearly all, of sets of physical Pokemon due to its sheer coverage and power. Not using Beak is a huge opportunity cost unless you are using Rend or V-Create instead, but Beak is far better than Rend due to Beak’s better offensive typing to deal with the defensive Flying- and Water-types in this meta. Rend is only really used for STAB, alongside Beak to deal with things that resist Beak (though most Pokemon can’t accommodate two slots for them), or on Pokemon that desperately need something to hit Volt Absorb Ho-oh (yeah right) or Groudon with. As I said, most of the time not using Bolt Beak or a similar move (but mostly just Bolt Beak) is a huge opportunity cost, especially on speedy mons/mons that can boost speed.
TLDR: V-Create is fine. I don't care about Fishious Rend. Glacial Lance I can see being banned but am also fine with it staying. Ban Bolt Beak. (also I don't really care about Cram)
Zamazenta @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Shift Gear
- Close Combat
- Glacial Lance
- Bolt Beak
The set let you sweep and break at the same time. Adamant Guts-boosted CC is obscenely powerful and heavily dent anything without Fur Coat. GLance destroys Zygod and Etern and hits other dragons like Giratina. Beak rounds out my coverage by destroying Ho-Oh, Yveltal, and Lugia. This thing can throw out attacks early-game and sweep lategame, and you are stronger than Impostor because they don't have Flame Orb. Although this is no SD set a Shift Gear- and Guts-boosted attack can destroy almost anything with the appropriate coverage move. It's also not too hard to improof as the impostor is not nearly as strong as you due to not being burned. Fur Coat Reshy or Solgaleo/NDM can take hits from even a +2 impostor pretty comfortably, and Lugia actually narrowly avoids being 2HKOed at +1 if running max defense and leftovers (nvm because the calc defaulted to it having multiscale. FC Giratina can do it too).
Yes this is another funny STAB+Glance+VFB set. But hey, they're getting banned because they're too good, and if they are still here might as well use them, right?
I have to agree with this. Even with crazy breakers and sweepers like Sheer Force Zekrom out there, a lot of battles often end up with PP stalling with your Zama-C or Ho-oh. That's not saying that the offensive moves are not broken -- I'm of the opinion is that out of the four, at the very least Bolt Beak is broken. However, every team is forced to run something like Zama-C (most of the time actually Zama-C because that thing is amazing) to not instantly die to the boom moves, and with trapping moves in the equation often battles end up with "who can trap and PP stall who and sweep their weakened team afterwards".
Disclaimer: I don't think trapping moves are a problem, like, at all. They are a very healthy part of the metagame. I'm just saying that games get boring sometimes with two Pokemon just waiting for someone's PP runs out.
Finally, to the topic at hand: four boom buttons.
I think V-Create is fine because of its low PP, nasty side effect, and the fact that Fire resists aren't far or few between and you'll probably find that you ended up with one on your team anyway.
I don't really care about Rend and I can do with or without it. Outclassed by Beak imo
Glacial Lance... this one is tricky for me to find an opinion on. Like Lunatic Hai said, GLance is definately not broken by itself, but the combination of it with another funny nuke button (see: the Zama set earlier in this post) really makes it difficult to deal with. Not to mention that Ice is arguably one of the best offensive typings ever. It also directly affects the viability of bulky dragons because they become liabilities with a GLance user on the opposing team. However, bulky dragons are still important to have to deal with the other three dummy moves (damn I suddenly understand why someone wanted to raise Swampert on the VR), and this creates a dilemma: GLance users can and will abuse the bulky dragons on the opposing team that are forced on their team and use them for setup turns, punching holes, etc. However, GLance is definaly fine by itself, and I don't want to something banned because "something else is broken because this exists".
Finally, Bolt Beak. I think that this move is the most broken of the four, boasting incredible neutral coverage, an effective 170 BP, and almost unstoppable coverage with Glance. However, unlike GLance, Bolt Beak is still pretty nutty by itself, often finding itself on most, if not nearly all, of sets of physical Pokemon due to its sheer coverage and power. Not using Beak is a huge opportunity cost unless you are using Rend or V-Create instead, but Beak is far better than Rend due to Beak’s better offensive typing to deal with the defensive Flying- and Water-types in this meta. Rend is only really used for STAB, alongside Beak to deal with things that resist Beak (though most Pokemon can’t accommodate two slots for them), or on Pokemon that desperately need something to hit Volt Absorb Ho-oh (yeah right) or Groudon with. As I said, most of the time not using Bolt Beak or a similar move (but mostly just Bolt Beak) is a huge opportunity cost, especially on speedy mons/mons that can boost speed.
TLDR: V-Create is fine. I don't care about Fishious Rend. Glacial Lance I can see being banned but am also fine with it staying. Ban Bolt Beak. (also I don't really care about Cram)
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ah yes, the risk of having something else be broken after one thing is banned. meta really went downhill after we banned eternamax because then all these offensive pokemon started popping up. and after we banned neutralizing gas we had to get rid of all these nasty abilities.
bh gives u a ton of freedom so when the meta changes at all, people can usually find something really dumb. it's important to note that progress is still being made as long as there's less ridiculous stuff that anyone can use and succeed with. and after a couple years its usually really cool.
something like illusion or pure power doesn't force you into specific sets (outside of maybe fc to beat pure power, but you have several options) but those are obviously still broken because they operate on a ridiculous threat level, with pure power completely owning every pokemon in the game and illusion having the absurd threat of 2 possible breakers on the screen at once.
"if offensive threats are really so powerful, then why do i spend all my time in-game being forced to go into my fat mons? checkmate."
i read a book on game theory a while back and there was something really interesting in it, a game of rock/paper/scissors where you get $1 for winning normally but $2 for winning by using paper. you might expect the players to spam paper but the dominant strategy was actually playing scissors most of the time.
we saw a variety of stall teams last gen even in metas like 2017 where there was a lot of crazy stuff (pretty sure pdon was legal then? not sure) because the walls functioned, and no one wants to use mons that punish walls because then they just get shredded by the crazy stuff in question.
either way i think using "offensive" vs "defensive" to describe a meta is really dumb. even for slower metas like say rby or gsc ou i wouldn't call them defensive, sure you can't kill everything in 10 turns but hyper offense is still possible.
and about the whole shed thing, i'll try not to dwell too much on shed itself because that would be misrepresenting your argument, but what i wanted to say was that the meta tends to "balance" itself around the strongest threats. so in practice, what happens is in top-level games, using broken things typically does not inherently give you an advantage. you couldn't expect to have a 55% or 60% winrate in ompl by bringing a pokemon like darm or calyrex-shadow every time. people don't want to lose to these guys, so they'll bring extreme counterplay to them if necessary. however, this by itself does not mean that the meta is ideal or balanced.
throughout this gen i have felt that my playstyle is not catered to because without extreme precision in building + playing it can fall apart so easily. i have yet to create a consistent team that can proactively or reactively outplay regardless of matchup, and i'm starting to doubt it being possible in the current metagame; i feel like this is a consequence of banning calyrex so the top threats are much more diverse and are practically impossible to prep for. this is why i want to ban bolt/glance
Sweet Jesus
Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
You realize none of this is applicable to anything I said, you're deabating with a ghost. Pulling off the most extreme examples of broken things is not a way of showing the arguably broken things that got banned were banned for a good reason. You're not trying to find the truth, you just want to win the argument using schopenhauer's playbook (17th strategy). I already stated I don't believe we should try to approach pure hackmons and I'm not trying to unban anything that has been banned. People are feeling personnaly attacked on the last and least interesting part of my post. I was just saying people like to see the game as the problem rather than themselves and that makes them slightly more inclined to press on the ban button than they should be.
Right, so if top players spent all their games sweeping each other randomly on whoever got the right match-up in turn 1 then we should start banning walls? If the fact balanced teams end up stalling all the time isn't an indicator the meta isn't too offensive, what is? The fact fat mons are capable of tanking the hits and no player is capable of retaliating with their wallbreakers is exactly what shows we don't need to ban those moves.
I've built hundreds of teams in this gen and hundreds in gen 7 and I find myself in the same twisted situations where the last mon I add needs to cover plenty of very different threats because there's just so much and the perfect team doesn't exist. Extreme precision in building and playing is what it takes to get to the top in every tier and that's a metagame were supposed to aim for.
BH should not be approched as other tiers where you want to make sure you're as close as possible to countering every threat by simply walling them. We have to accept the fact you can't counter every offensive threat and the fact a BH game can flip around with one bad move and banning until that changes will just slowly lead the meta into deep stall. We have to accept that in BH trends dictate what's good and what's not more than in other tiers. We have to accept that in this tier, prankster D-bonding or saccing cramorant on the threat you weren't prepared for is a part of what balances the tier. (Ps those are just 2 examples of wierd anti-sweep strats unique to BH, please don't attack those specific strategies as inconsistent, there's many more, that's the point).
This doesn't mean nothing is ever banworthy. I've already stated what makes something banworthy in my opinion.
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Ridiculous Breakers mk. 2
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Triple Axel
- Dragon Darts
- V-Create
- Flip Turn/Ice Shard/Surging Strikes/Whatever
Imagina a Pokemon with a base 170 attack with access with a 180 BP STAB move with one of the best offensive typings in the game. That's what this set is. Thanks to Triple Axel being multi-hit with low-ish BP on each hit, Technician effectively gives the move 180 BP. Factoring in Black Kyurem's base 170 attack, STAB boost, and Choice Band Boost, Triple Axel becomes the holy mother of nukes with an obscene effective 405 BP. After this, the other moves look like that they are just here for show. Dragon Darts is also incredibly strong thanks to Technician and destroys Dragons that don't care as much about Triple Axel (read: Reshiram) as well as anything that resists Triple Axel. Finally, V-Create kills Steel-types (mostly Zama-C, what did you expect?) and is obviously very powerful on its own, though this is probably the first time that I saw V-Create pale in comparison of the other moves in a Pokemon's moveset. With just three moves, Kyurem-B can OHKO almost everything in the metagame.
Believe it or not, Kyurem has nearly perfect coverage with these three moves, so the other one is mostly a utility move or a filler. Flip Turn for momentum and is used over U-Turn for the Technician boost. Ice Shard is priority and also has the Technician boost. Surging Strikes is also stupidly powerful with a boost and can be run on rain or for Fur Coat Ho-oh or just for the crit breaking past defense boosts. On the other hand, if you have rain you might want to run Bonemerang because V-Create gets weakened or just for Flash Fire or Primsea Steels (and Dialga). There's also Gear Grind (rip DIB) for fairies, Knock Off, Trick/Switcheroo, Storm Throw, Rock Tomb, I honestly don't know what else you could run on the fourth slot without wasting this Kyurem.
Right, calcs:
Of course, this set has its share of problems. It hates anything with Rocky Helmet/Baneful Bunker/Spiky Shield. It also dislikes any status, especially burns and paralysis. And then there's always the problem of prediction that comes with using choice sets. You also need a good improof, but that's not as hard as it seems, as the impostor does not hold a Choice Band. Fur Coat Zamazenta or Solgaleo works wonderfully as they both outspeed, can take two hits while switching in and trapping, and heal. Fur Coat Dialga or NDM also works, as does Tapu Fini. However, with good play and prediction, Kyurem can claim multiple KOs nearly every game, so it is a truly devastating wallbreaker.
Learning about this set also made me very, very happy (but also sad at the same time) that Darm was banned.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Triple Axel
- Dragon Darts
- V-Create
- Flip Turn/Ice Shard/Surging Strikes/Whatever
Imagina a Pokemon with a base 170 attack with access with a 180 BP STAB move with one of the best offensive typings in the game. That's what this set is. Thanks to Triple Axel being multi-hit with low-ish BP on each hit, Technician effectively gives the move 180 BP. Factoring in Black Kyurem's base 170 attack, STAB boost, and Choice Band Boost, Triple Axel becomes the holy mother of nukes with an obscene effective 405 BP. After this, the other moves look like that they are just here for show. Dragon Darts is also incredibly strong thanks to Technician and destroys Dragons that don't care as much about Triple Axel (read: Reshiram) as well as anything that resists Triple Axel. Finally, V-Create kills Steel-types (mostly Zama-C, what did you expect?) and is obviously very powerful on its own, though this is probably the first time that I saw V-Create pale in comparison of the other moves in a Pokemon's moveset. With just three moves, Kyurem-B can OHKO almost everything in the metagame.
Believe it or not, Kyurem has nearly perfect coverage with these three moves, so the other one is mostly a utility move or a filler. Flip Turn for momentum and is used over U-Turn for the Technician boost. Ice Shard is priority and also has the Technician boost. Surging Strikes is also stupidly powerful with a boost and can be run on rain or for Fur Coat Ho-oh or just for the crit breaking past defense boosts. On the other hand, if you have rain you might want to run Bonemerang because V-Create gets weakened or just for Flash Fire or Primsea Steels (and Dialga). There's also Gear Grind (rip DIB) for fairies, Knock Off, Trick/Switcheroo, Storm Throw, Rock Tomb, I honestly don't know what else you could run on the fourth slot without wasting this Kyurem.
Right, calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 459-543 (110.3 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 486-576 (106.5 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 972-1152 (213.1 - 252.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 566-668 (145.8 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 213-252 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-260 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 1632-1944 (256.6 - 305.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 189-225 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- approx. 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 212-252 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 450-528 (92.9 - 109%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 378-450 (75.1 - 89.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 441-522 (104.2 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Regigigas: 225-264 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 828-978 (204.9 - 242%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 240-284 (60.3 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Palkia: 468-552 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 459-543 (113.6 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 192-228 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 486-576 (106.5 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 972-1152 (213.1 - 252.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 566-668 (145.8 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 213-252 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-260 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 1632-1944 (256.6 - 305.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 189-225 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- approx. 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 212-252 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 450-528 (92.9 - 109%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 378-450 (75.1 - 89.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 441-522 (104.2 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Regigigas: 225-264 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 828-978 (204.9 - 242%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 240-284 (60.3 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Palkia: 468-552 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 459-543 (113.6 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Kyurem-Black Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 192-228 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, this set has its share of problems. It hates anything with Rocky Helmet/Baneful Bunker/Spiky Shield. It also dislikes any status, especially burns and paralysis. And then there's always the problem of prediction that comes with using choice sets. You also need a good improof, but that's not as hard as it seems, as the impostor does not hold a Choice Band. Fur Coat Zamazenta or Solgaleo works wonderfully as they both outspeed, can take two hits while switching in and trapping, and heal. Fur Coat Dialga or NDM also works, as does Tapu Fini. However, with good play and prediction, Kyurem can claim multiple KOs nearly every game, so it is a truly devastating wallbreaker.
Learning about this set also made me very, very happy (but also sad at the same time) that Darm was banned.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
You remind me so much of me!
I was sad about the Darm ban too!
I like your set! It’s a “post-ban” mindset we may all need to prepare for.
As a suggestion:
Bonemerang > V-Create
Trick = final slotKeep the Speed, break the Substitute (and hit Dialga, Flash Fire Steels), and let em know “What Goes Around Comes Back Around”.
Trick can punish a wall, like a Steel-type, on a predicted switch in, just be careful of their Anchor Shot once they have it.
Hey there is a suspect!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...acial-lance-voter-id-and-information.3678145/
Feel free to post your thoughts here before you get reqs (or after, go crazy).
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...acial-lance-voter-id-and-information.3678145/
Feel free to post your thoughts here before you get reqs (or after, go crazy).
Just laying out some of my thoughts on the state of the meta rn. For reference for those who don't know me, I was a decently good gen7 player and have continued playing on and off in natdex and now gen8.
First off, I think banning fishious/boltbeak is 100% a wonderful idea and I'm glad to see beak getting suspected, THAT level of damage should not be so freely splashable and it makes it nearly impossible to find a consistent wall for so many mons. As for glance and vc, I think glance proooooobably could go too? I'd def consider suspecting it but I don't think it's as high priority as the other two considering the lack of good stab users plus the fact that it's not quite as strong meaning it's not gonna be randomly ohko'ing your mons unless it's zyg but like that's just what happens when you run a 4x ice weakness. I think vc is fine atm considering how well available fire type checks are PLUS the downsides of 8pp + stat drops, if it still seems stupid after banning the other moves then we could look into it but I think it's likely fine.
I do think we need to look moreso into banning noncompetitive (not necessarily broken) moves/abilities as well (these are on the backburned ofc after taking care of the bigger problems with the broken physical nukes). These are referring to things that either severely reduce consistency of outcome (final gambit causing games to be wayyy too mu based/cram inherently making 90% of aggressive options risky) or things that force you to run just a few possible specific options to answer it or else you get bopped (gen8ou dracovish overcentralizing the meta). Obviously it's not as easy to determine whether or not something is "noncompetitive" as it is to determine whether something is too strong so I'd recommend requiring more than just a simple majority vote if you want to suspect these.
Edit: Ban dbond too that also falls under noncompetitive lol
First off, I think banning fishious/boltbeak is 100% a wonderful idea and I'm glad to see beak getting suspected, THAT level of damage should not be so freely splashable and it makes it nearly impossible to find a consistent wall for so many mons. As for glance and vc, I think glance proooooobably could go too? I'd def consider suspecting it but I don't think it's as high priority as the other two considering the lack of good stab users plus the fact that it's not quite as strong meaning it's not gonna be randomly ohko'ing your mons unless it's zyg but like that's just what happens when you run a 4x ice weakness. I think vc is fine atm considering how well available fire type checks are PLUS the downsides of 8pp + stat drops, if it still seems stupid after banning the other moves then we could look into it but I think it's likely fine.
I do think we need to look moreso into banning noncompetitive (not necessarily broken) moves/abilities as well (these are on the backburned ofc after taking care of the bigger problems with the broken physical nukes). These are referring to things that either severely reduce consistency of outcome (final gambit causing games to be wayyy too mu based/cram inherently making 90% of aggressive options risky) or things that force you to run just a few possible specific options to answer it or else you get bopped (gen8ou dracovish overcentralizing the meta). Obviously it's not as easy to determine whether or not something is "noncompetitive" as it is to determine whether something is too strong so I'd recommend requiring more than just a simple majority vote if you want to suspect these.
Edit: Ban dbond too that also falls under noncompetitive lol
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Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
Cramorant 2.0 (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Roost
- Baneful Bunker
- Encore
Effect: Perish Body has a 100% chance to trigger Perish Song when hit by a contact move.
I am a little shook with how effective this is:
I use Cramorant, Knock Off, and Sticky Webs support to ensure it moves first, so I can trap - as they attack, and trigger its ability. I then follow-up with Encore so they cannot pivot out, and stall with Recover / Baneful Bunker. Shed Shell keeps it Improof, and Roost is for Imprisoners.
I also use it as a win-con to defeat their last Pokemon left.
Not only does it score a KO, but depending on their Encore'd move, I can get a free switch.
Versus Becoming Other
Here is a longer play where you can see me use it over a few additional turns to secure the safe switch-into Zacian, which won me the match.
Versus Premium Trash
Importable PokePaste
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Roost
- Baneful Bunker
- Encore
Effect: Perish Body has a 100% chance to trigger Perish Song when hit by a contact move.
I am a little shook with how effective this is:
I use Cramorant, Knock Off, and Sticky Webs support to ensure it moves first, so I can trap - as they attack, and trigger its ability. I then follow-up with Encore so they cannot pivot out, and stall with Recover / Baneful Bunker. Shed Shell keeps it Improof, and Roost is for Imprisoners.
I also use it as a win-con to defeat their last Pokemon left.
Not only does it score a KO, but depending on their Encore'd move, I can get a free switch.
Versus Becoming Other
Here is a longer play where you can see me use it over a few additional turns to secure the safe switch-into Zacian, which won me the match.
Versus Premium Trash
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Strength Sap
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Sunsteel Strike
Remove Toxic Ob, Shed Shell, and Eviolite / Absorb Trick.
Break Xearneas with Sunsteel, and take down Calyrex / Kyurem-B / Kyurem-W.
Cramorant-Gorging @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Gulp Missile
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Endure
- Flip Turn
- Knock Off
Paralyze, remove items, and pivot. Endure works to maintain survival, and for a secondary Rocky Helmet damage.
Eternatus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Core Enforcer
Set-up, pivot, remove abilities, and handle those pesky Dragon Energy sweepers. Also punishes Zygarde-Complete, and Giratina, while only taking half from them.
Can benefit from paralysis due to now slow pivoting, and more Core Enforcer activations.
Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Haze
- Shore Up
- Court Change
- Thousand Waves
Haze, and pp stall via trapping Imposter - I opted for Court Change so you can avoid risking a Defog / Rapid Spin.
Leftovers because it helps me PP stall vs Glacial Lance.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Shed Shell
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Roost
- Baneful Bunker
- Encore
Trap, stall, Poison on hits you cannot survive, and recover with one of the fastest, bulkiest walls in this metagame... period.
Zacian @ Flame Orb
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psycho Shift
- Spikes
- Roost
- Facade
Wall physical threats, accumulate hazards as the foe is forced to switch, and sweep Dragons / neutral targets with Facade, casually healing in the process. Iconic, and ironically the best multi-tasker I have ever created.
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Strength Sap
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Sunsteel Strike
Remove Toxic Ob, Shed Shell, and Eviolite / Absorb Trick.
Break Xearneas with Sunsteel, and take down Calyrex / Kyurem-B / Kyurem-W.
Cramorant-Gorging @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Gulp Missile
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Endure
- Flip Turn
- Knock Off
Paralyze, remove items, and pivot. Endure works to maintain survival, and for a secondary Rocky Helmet damage.
Eternatus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Core Enforcer
Set-up, pivot, remove abilities, and handle those pesky Dragon Energy sweepers. Also punishes Zygarde-Complete, and Giratina, while only taking half from them.
Can benefit from paralysis due to now slow pivoting, and more Core Enforcer activations.
Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Haze
- Shore Up
- Court Change
- Thousand Waves
Haze, and pp stall via trapping Imposter - I opted for Court Change so you can avoid risking a Defog / Rapid Spin.
Leftovers because it helps me PP stall vs Glacial Lance.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Shed Shell
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Roost
- Baneful Bunker
- Encore
Trap, stall, Poison on hits you cannot survive, and recover with one of the fastest, bulkiest walls in this metagame... period.
Zacian @ Flame Orb
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psycho Shift
- Spikes
- Roost
- Facade
Wall physical threats, accumulate hazards as the foe is forced to switch, and sweep Dragons / neutral targets with Facade, casually healing in the process. Iconic, and ironically the best multi-tasker I have ever created.
Importable PokePaste
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