BH Balanced Hackmons

[Codename C.A.T]

Current BH Just Isn't a Good Metagame
ignore cloak i just needed something to put there

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Currently, BH is in a...well, I guess bad spot would be exaggerating it too much, but it's certainly not good. I think everyone knows the general reasoning for why the metagame isn't good(Mortal Spin), but I might as well add a few other things I think could be broken. Outlined below are all the things I personally think deserve a suspect test or outright ban.

Mortal Spin

This is the main move forcing the near ubiquity of Covert Cloak. You know why it's broken, but we should go into why it's actually more broken than you think. Imagine that, a move THIS strong is actually being underrated by the current playerbase, even if just slightly.
The main thing that I personally believe makes Mortal Spin overbearing is its affect on the hazard metagame. In past gens, we saw mons like Regigigas setting up Spikes with ease, Xerneas being able to effortlessly control them, and plenty of great options for -ateSpin that are always present. Unfortunately, we are not blessed with the same luxury in gen 9. First of all, Poison Heal is banned, making semi-offensive Spikes setters much more difficult to slot in than before. Secondly, Mortal Spin ensures that no matter what happens, these Spikes will be removed. It might be "blockable" with a Steel like Megalix, but it's not consistently blockable on a ton of users of the move like Yveltal, various Arceus sets, and MGLO Ho-oh. Even if they don’t immediately threaten your steel with a 2HKO, they can still annoy it massively by either forcing it to just switch in and then regen out or remove its item via Knock Off. The ability to consistently remove pressure from your side while adding pressure to your opponent's side is nothing short of ridiculous, which is why just about every mon has Covert Cloak now - they don't want to be the ones receiving that pressure.
With all that being said, I think there's more wrong with BH than just Mortal Spin, as shown below.

Salt Cure
This is the second reason why Covert Cloak is on everything. Salt Cure is a 40 BP rock move that, on hit, applies an effect called Salt Cure that drains 1/8 of the opponent's max health every turn. This is already very good on its own, but what makes it truly ridiculous is its extra effect: Salt Cure does 1/4 of the opponent's max health if they are a Water or Steel type. This means Pokemon like RegenVest Kyogre or Steelix-Mega can be punished just for switching into Salt Cure with a Spikeup, and these are mons intended to absorb passive damage. Of particularly notable use of this move are Miraidon and various Covert Cloak users, punishing their counters for switching into them with crippling passive damage if not running cloak themselves. This makes mons like Kartana, MMX, Diancie-Mega, and SNR Ghostceus even more nightmarishly difficult to handle.
So, as we've established, there are many crippling forms of passive damage. These moves specifically are mostly broken because of their ability to exemplify the damage already being dealt by the crazy breakers with a 4-2 structure like this. So, we have these stupid strong moves. We have these breakers. What can we do to make them more manageable?

Poison Heal
I am advocating for a suspect of Poison Heal back into the tier. Let's go over the reasons it was banned in the past:
1. Arceus Formes - These are still very prominent and would be very good users of Poison Heal. However, these setup sets wouldn't be nearly as overwhelming in a full dex format. This also means that the Arceus formes must drop one of Fur Coat or Ice Scales, making them vulnerable to the big breakers.
2. Various Other Setup - Aside from Arceus, we have a couple other mons that would appreciate Poison Heal for their setup capabilities, namely Primal Kyogre. However, with the ban of Quiver Dance, Primal Kyogre wouldn't be anywhere near as oppressive as it was in past generations now that you can consistently outspeed and threaten it with any physical breaker. The same goes for most other potential users of Poison Heal. And before you say anything about Xerneas, lolmao.
3. Non-Setup Poison Heal - This is the most interesting and important one to me and the reason I am making this post in the first place. Take Miraidon as an example of an abuser of this type of Poison Heal. It trades off the doubled defense of Fur Coat in exchange for effortless recovery and Poison immunity, while offsetting Salt Cure damage.
That should be about all I have to say. Ping me in OMcord or reply if you have any thoughts about this post.

 

[zezaktest]

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Poison Heal
I am advocating for a suspect of Poison Heal back into the tier. Let's go over the reasons it was banned in the past:

Codename you aren't cooking with bringing back poison heal. I think the solution to these moves is just ban them. Most people don't like them so I don't think anyone cares about them being gone.

 

[okgoogle4]

Codename you aren't cooking with bringing back poison heal. I think the solution to these moves is just ban them. Most people don't like them so I don't think anyone cares about them being gone.

Poison Heal pretty much walls Salt Cure,Mortal Spin,and Covert Cloak lemme show u why

Salt Cure
Poison Heal heals you 1/8 hp every turn so (if your not Kyogre Or Steelix-Mega) Poison Heal and Salt Cure are essentialy cancelling each other out

Mortal Spin
Its pretty obvious why Poison Heal walls Spin,however PHusers may not even run mortal spin in fear of accidently poisoning a chansey or blissey.

Covert Cloak
PH invalidates Cloak because most PH mons can afford to run raw status moves(Will O Wisp instead of Scald,Toxic instead of Mortal Spin) so in a way PH kinda makes u think twice before using Covert Cloak,not to mention PH users dont mind being knocked off by their imposters so they can freely carry knock off

Setup Mons
Most Setup mons are using Simple Or Dazzling these days,not to mention the Wicked Blows and Flower Tricks going around these days

I think bringing PH back would actually balance the meta quite a bit,however i believe SAC clause should also be implemented if PH is bought back.

 

[rightclicker]

cool team i’ve been using recently



Team name: Murder in My Mind - Psychic Surge Deoxys-Attack + Selfproof Spam HO

Synopsis:

Mixed Psychic Surge Deoxys-Attack is able to break through most defensive cores given minor chip (which if you see the billion other offensive mons, it’s easily achievable with how many checks they share). Deoxys-Attack also provides natural speed control as the second fastest (viable) mon in the meta. Psychic Terrain provides priority insurance for Speed Boost Palkia-O and Destiny Bond cheese, anti-Prankster Parting Shot for Ghostceus and Lunala, and jacks up Lunala’s boosted Stored Powers to absolutely stupid levels. Lunala can click Final Gambit on Ice Scales Arceus, or Yveltal so either the dragons or Ghostceus breaks through. Ting-Lu improofs Deoxys-Attack, has basic hazard control and provides a secondary Prankster immune if you wanna play safer. The rest improofs themselves through Plates.
As expected with HO, play aggressively. Like, really aggressively. One wrong predict could lose you the game, but a correct one can swing the tide into a win. I usually lead Deoxys-Attack -> Ting-Lu Teleport but Ghostceus leads can surprise your opponent too.

Weaknesses:

- Sticky Webs: Funnily enough, this entire team falls to Sticky Webs if Ting-Lu can’t remove them. Your ghosts are suddenly slower than everything and their mothers even boosted, Deoxys-Attack fails to serve as proper speed control, and Palkia-O/Eternatus can simply be Boomburst’d to death by Mega Diancie.

- The improof for Spooky Plate Imposter is really, really sus (you’d essentially have to trade your Ghostceus/Lunala and one of your Pranksters to maybe get rid of it) but that set’s incredibly uncommon so it’s probably fine.

- Mega Diancie: You have no true check here. It’s either saccing wars between your Deoxys and their Diancie, or a “will you take the dbond bait or will you simply switch out” gambling simulator.

Other Options:

- V-Create > Headlong Rush is an option on Deoxys-Attack to immediately 2HKO Mega Steelix, but the improofing becomes rather difficult afterwards. Collision Course is also an option here. (improof with Aegislash)

- Nasty Plot > Torch Song and Armor Cannon > Sludge Wave on Eternatus trades off it’s ability to threaten Mega Diancie (without sacrificing itself) and Fairyceus (immediately) for much more immediate firepower. You can also scrap the set entirely and settle for a NP + 3A Moldy set instead, but I’ve found 1 Prankbonder to not be enough most of the time.

- Desolate Land Reshiram could work over Palkia-O, but it makes the team a bit slower in the speed department (and also I haven’t tested it)

 

[Chessking345]

Hi I have been largely inactive due to reasons but I wanted to share my thoughts on some of the recent posts. Note that I have not read any Discord posts on anything so I probably missed out on some significant discussion there.

1. Mandating Covert Cloak is not necessarily bad.
Cloak is undoubtedly one of the best items of all time and has monopolized item usage. However, is this really necessarily a bad thing? Consider Heavy-Duty Boots being widespread in other metas, it can completely dominate the item usages but does that mean hazards should be banned to increase item variety? I also disagree with the idea that limiting item variety impacts creativity and forces linear defensive cores. Rocks-weak Pokemon are still perfectly viable, as seen through Pokemon like Yveltal. These Pokemon were able to see success in past generations like gen 7 where there was not even the option of having Boots.

2. Mortal Spin is not the only reason Cloak is used
Self explanatory. Cloak as mentioned is an extremely good item, and its utility goes beyond countering a single move. Blocking Lumina SpD drop, Triple Arrows Def drop and flinch, etc on the offensive side and moves like Nuzzle and Salt Cure on the defensive end is extremely useful and this item is still going to be omnipresent even if you ban Mortal. In addition, even if Mortal Spin was banned, RegenVest Pokemon can simply opt to run the classic Poison Fang. You still would require the same antimeasures against those Pokemon compared to if they were running Mortal instead, but now we lose hazard control as well, which I’ll expand on later. The reason why an uncommon move in previous gens like PFang would be relevant is because of.

3. Mortal Spin is not the only reason why Regenerator is prevalent right now
Regenerator Pokemon are indeed very strong but I disagree with the idea that Mortal Spin is causing it. Notably, while Regen users are good users of the move, non-Steel types lack the ability to run countermeasures against it and the status is very crippling to Regen mons by considerably reducing their recovery. Regen mons instead are strong because of other mechanics changes this generation. A reduction in healing PP indirectly buffs Regen by nerfing other things. A removal of good trapping moves indirectly buffs Regen since that was one of its biggest downsides (not being able to trap effectively). The available utility movepool this gen makes Regen mons more effective at dissuading Imposter. If you are familiar with the G9 ND meta you would know that despite also having access to moves like Mortal, Regen mons are more or less mediocre.

4. Mortal Spin is replaceable in a negative way
As previously mentioned, Poison Fang is a move that can replace Mortal Spin. This move has the same crippling effect as Mortal (you can also run stuff like Twineedle (is that in?) if you value regular Poison) while lacking the beneficial hazard removal effect. The reason why this move is relevant now is because when we do not have access to moves like Spectral Thief, Core Enforcer, and Trapping Moves, the moveslots for defensive Pokemon like Regen users are effectively freed up and Poison-inducing moves (or Salt Cure) become extremely viable options. This ties back into point 2, where banning Mortal will not reduce Cloak’s dominance.

5. Mortal Spin’s hazard removal is a valuable asset to the meta
As people have mentioned, Mortal Spin is the number one hazard removal option in the current meta. Tidy Up has terrible PP especially when it doubles as a setup for pressure. Rapid Spin is really only viable on Yveltal and maybe some Ghost-type due to other Pokemon being ineffective at preventing Spinblocking. -ate Spin is basically nonexistent. Court Change is typically a secondary hazard control that is hard to prevent Imposter from capitalizing. When combined with the ease of setting rocks from Stone Axe, and it becomes clear that Mortal Spin is necessary to preserve the delicate hazard balance that we currently have. Even with Mortal Spin, almost every team is running double, if not triple hazard removal simply because it’s really hard to cover all Steel-types with one Mortal user, though Mortal also being a good move is a factor that I won’t deny. Banning Mortal would in this case actually limit teambuilding due to limiting the possible removal options that people can run.

5.5. Banning Stone Axe as well is not a solution
Banning Stone Axe doesn’t change the lack of good removal in the meta and instead leads to further matchup fishing between Spike stacking and Magic Bounce users. The latter of which IMO should be limited in viability due to the concept of Sap blocking also being a fish mechanic. If removal becomes difficult you will just see Boots being prevalent which is contrary to the idea of “stop one item dominating”.

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Also, some counterpoints:

“Mortal is too good as a progress maker”
Stone Axe and past gen Spikes are also extremely good progress makers on defensive Pokemon yet no one seems to have an issue with those. Mortal even has much more accessible counterplay compared to them (Cloak vs pray for miss / Bounce).

“Mortal has a negative effect on the hazard meta”
I already did a point above on why I think the contrary is true, but as mentioned Mortal in itself isn’t even a super reliable way of removing and basically all teams opt for at least two removal options. I also hard disagree with the idea (lmk if I interpret this wrong) that stuff like Spikes should not be difficult to keep up. In a meta like BH having Spikes be easy to maintain is not healthy from my viewpoint as seen through the Ceaseless Edge meta, and all that you are doing is forcing Boots onto defensive Pokemon and MG onto offensive ones. Also I don’t get this idea of comparing to past BH gens for hazard game. Current meta is distinct from any BH meta that has existed and previous BH metas also have had different hazard metas so I don’t see why we can’t have a unique hazard meta right now.

“Consider freeing Poison Heal”
IMO, absolutely not. You list the different users of PH but you didn’t actually list the reasons why PH was oppressive. For one, PH completely shuts down all defensive utility moves currently, including but not limited to Knock Off, Mortal Spin, and Nuzzle, while mitigating the chip damage defensive Pokemon can deal. There’s also a severe lack of counterplay options, with the most threatening one being Spirit Shackle + Ability removal, which is 1.5 dead moveslots. This means that viable counterplay is basically limited to Toxic Orb Imposter (not healthy), your own PH with a favourable matchup (fish), or sheer offensive pressure, which is unreliable considering the naturally high bulk of typical PH users. Thus, freeing PH would just revert the meta back to fishing on whether your PH mon out of the numerous perfectly viable options can 6-0 the opponent before their PH beats you. In your post you also repeatedly mention the opportunity cost of not running a defensive ability like FurScales, which is something I don’t get. PH is almost never used as a defensive option, and it certainly doesn’t mean you cannot run the FurScales on your team. Standard 2-3-1 Balance structure would simply replace an offensive Pokemon in the “2” with a PH mons since PH is excellent offensive support. If anything the fact that Pokemon like Arceus formes are amazing PH users would just mean that defensive cores are further weakened.
PH is already busted af in metas like NDBH and MBH where much more widespread counterplay like strong Trapping exist and there is 16 PP recovery, considering that we lack those tools I strongly believe PH should not be considered whatsoever.

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Some alternate proposals I have since I do agree that the meta could use some changes. Some if not all of these can be considered dubious but are funny so. These are not joke proposals though, I do think they are considerable (I have not considered Tiering Policy however).

1. Banning Regenerator
Very direct approach. I don’t like Regenerator’s state in the meta since it tends to noticeably drag out games and also just causes some IMO unhealthy interactions with stuff like breakers other defensive Pokemon and Imposter. I also don’t think banning Regen would be a significant blow to defensive structures since double stacking on one of FurScales is one of the options (can also see PFD meta where Regen started becoming less common).

2. Banning Knock Off
This seems ludicrous but idea is you prevent RegenVest from being able to remove items and moderately-heavily nerf them while you can still remove items through biggest move Corrosive Gas. Notable drawback is buffing Bounce + Cloak since that cannot get viably item removed.

3. Banning Stone Axe regardless
Banning Stone Axe -> Less demand for hazard removal -> Less Mortal Spin -> More other utility moves -> Variety = Good
Drawback is again Bounce better because Spikes, this is more dubious than the above.

4. Wait for DLC
This is also just an option. DLC will likely completely shake up the meta unlike the first one and can bring positive additions to the meta. Current meta seems fine to me anyways so I don’t mind but if you strongly dislike it uhhh cope ig.

Overall I think the meta is more or less fine right now and we definitely shouldn't get so banhappy and be hasty with tiering decisions.

 

[Geneku2]

A set I've been playing with recently inspired by the newly added Toxic Chain. Initially, Toxic Chain seemed like a promising ability with a 30% toxic rate for every hit. This means that double hit moves have a 51% chance of badly poison which is great in theory. In practice, Toxic Chain is pretty bad. It countered by Covert Cloak which is literally EVERYWHERE as well at the omnipresence of Steel types to block Mortal Spin. Furthermore, it is easily outclassed by Technician if the "multi-hit Toxic proc" build is chosen. Groudon and Garchomp-M are the main Pokemon that logically should run this ability being able to inflict super effective ground damage on Poison/Steel and badly poison everything else. I may play around with this build a bit more, Toxic Chains seems like an ability with a lot of potential and I don't want to give up on it yet. The thing with a hyper-offensive/defensive metagame is that there isn't a lot of room for niche builds in between god-cannons and god-walls.

Garchomp-Mega @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Bone Rush
- Surging Strikes

 

[Tea Guzzler]

1. Mandating Covert Cloak is not necessarily bad.

yes it is. improofing is the exception here is it actually makes for interesting teambuilding prospects and imp is necessary to keep around; mandatory cloak is neither of these things.

Consider Heavy-Duty Boots being widespread in other metas, it can completely dominate the item usages but does that mean hazards should be banned to increase item variety?

you see stuff like 6 boots OU stall teams because there just straight up aren't (or weren't) good options for removing hazards, so boots were a necessary cope as otherwise they lead samurott, get 3 spikes up, and you just fold to any reasonably strong breaker; exceptions like cyclizar were rare, and just that - exceptions. bh has other options than cloak for dealing with mortal spin, but cloak is just quite simply the best and most widespread option, so outside of rare mguard mons it essentially monopolizes mortal counterplay.

Rocks-weak Pokemon are still perfectly viable, as seen through Pokemon like Yveltal.

you can't reasonably claim this with a sample size of two (one of which, ho-oh, is "viable" but not good).

In addition, even if Mortal Spin was banned, RegenVest Pokemon can simply opt to run the classic Poison Fang. You still would require the same antimeasures against those Pokemon compared to if they were running Mortal instead, but now we lose hazard control as well, which I’ll expand on later. The reason why an uncommon move in previous gens like PFang would be relevant is because of.

this is sorta just... false. mortal seems like the automatic choice it is on regenvest stuff due to the role compression it offers as a status tool and removal option. not only removing the removal, but also making the activation 50% for a status that is only conditionally better than regular poison makes this really not that good of an option compared to the alternatives; there'd now be an actual choice to be made of nuzzle / axe / pfang (plus the other alternatives coming in dlc2) for the 4th regenvest moveslot alongside stab/pivot/knock.

If you are familiar with the G9 ND meta you would know that despite also having access to moves like Mortal, Regen mons are more or less mediocre.

because the metagames are completely different. nd has 16 pp recovery, poison heal, half-decent -atespinners, and far easier access to mixed attackers. this point is meaningless.

Banning Stone Axe doesn’t change the lack of good removal in the meta and instead leads to further matchup fishing between Spike stacking and Magic Bounce users. The latter of which IMO should be limited in viability due to the concept of Sap blocking also being a fish mechanic. If removal becomes difficult you will just see Boots being prevalent which is contrary to the idea of “stop one item dominating”.

this is just straight up not how you tier. there is zero value in keeping something problematic freed simply because The Magic Bounce Boogeyman would get too strong (idt it would anyway given fat bouncers like zyg-c and zamac are locked off and mbounce arc is a severe commitment most teams will not want to make). this also completely blanks the possibility of simply banning bounce if it becomes too problematic for spikes fishing like aaa did.

Stone Axe and past gen Spikes are also extremely good progress makers on defensive Pokemon yet no one seems to have an issue with those.

this is not true if you have been following discord or ps

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

I will also tune into the mortal spin argument. But I would like to first take a trip down memory lane.

Back when I had recently joined the BH council in gen8, I pushed hard to get Court Change banned. And this was because it made gameplay very "non-linear" because of the sharp momentum changes that came with Court Changing hazards. For these reasons, and the growing popularity of mono-boots teams I believed that Court Change was unhealthy to the metagame. However, after Court Change got banned and the meta settled down, it became very linear, in what some may say a boring way. It made the meta stale, and the ban reasoning for Court Change, at the very best was convoluted...

Looking back, I regret pushing hard to try and ban Court Change. Not only was the reasoning convoluted, but the meta to some became stale. I see similarities of this discussion with Mortal Spin. (This is just self reflection)

I'd like to first point out a couple things.

1. Mortal Spin does not mandate Covert Cloak. Salt Cure, Lumina Crash, Nuzzle and other side effect moves mandate covert cloak. And if Mortal Spin would be banned, regenvest pokemon would just run Poison Fang.

2. Covert Cloak will always be necessary. If anything, it is a healthy addition to the metagame. Like I would say, go ahead ban it. Now I'm going to whittle down your 8 pp recovery defensive mon that does nothing with a whole assortment of status ailment moves like Salt Cure, Poison Fang, etc. Banned it will harm defensive pokemon and buff regenvest pokemon. Also, still every regenvester carries knock off, and literally every Covert Cloak pokemon ends up getting knocked offed if it tries to make any progress on a regenvest mon. This item is a non-issue, and is in fact beneficial to the metagame.

3. Mortal Spin is a good addition to the metagame. Its double effect is quite strong, but its blockable by steels which I don't believe has really been mentioned as to how big this is. Steels are notoriously "worst mon on team" in BH. But they are genuinly easy to fit, and it can be very straightworward to think about which mortal spin pokemon you'd like to block. Because it will be able to spin block most regenvesters. And then secondary ones like offensive fire type mortal spin users have other ways of being blocked / beaten / progress denied.

4. All of the new moves and items, Stone Axe, Mortal Spin, Covert Cloak, and Salt Cure are interconnected in how the impact the metagame. There is no one move that jumps out as more broken than the other. They both impact each other and the metagame in their own unique way. The tiering policy for moves like these is ambiguous because it cannot be stated that the moves are "broken". Because they are inherently not broken. For each of them, there are reasonable and easy to fit ways on teams, to manage them. Additionally, the term "broken" is generally reserved for power houses such as Calyrex-Shadow, or Mega-Rayquaza. Now, the only defintion in which they can fall under which can mandate tiering action is them being "unhealthy". But, because of how interconnected each of the moves are, and additional ambiguity too with regards to how they are unhealthy, tiering justification is vague at best.

Tiering action is not done, by predicting how the metagame will be like after. Tiering action is done by being present, and assessing the situation and interaction of a specific move or pokemon in the present metagame. Not only is the "brokeness" of Mortal Spin ambiguous, but there are additionally too many interconnected moves, items and pokemon in the current metagame to reach a conclusive justification that Mortal Spin is unhealthy.

This last point undermines some of what I said in this post, because I discussed what a "potential" meta might look like in the future, and I understand that. But, some of the discussion has revolved around this and I wanted to address it. The impact of Mortal Spin on the metagame should be studied as objectively as possible. From my viewpoint, it is clear that Mortal Spin is not broken, because there are ample ways of blocking it, and poisoning is not a "broken status", along with moves such as stone axe which contend with it. Additionally, I don't believe it is possible to conclusively say that Mortal Spin is "unhealthy" because other moves such as Nuzzle, Lumina Crash, and Salt Cure force the "covert cloak" meta just as strongly as Mortal Spin does.

 

[Ren]

to any new players who may be lurking this thread and may not know better, i feel the need to point out that poison fang doesn't easily replace mortal spin and the two people making that point are wrong. please do not go into your teambuilder and replace every instance of mortal spin with poison fang. poison fang does not remove hazards and has only a 50% chance to poison the opponent. mortal spin guarantees poison while removing hazards, thunder cage/magma storm and leech seed.

yes I know they have colored badges and that my badges are gray. if you doubt my claims you can go onto ps and type "/dt poison fang" and "/dt mortal spin" to compare. you can check this information for yourselves. please do that before you take the word of two people who are on some super potent kool-aid. it isn't even the red kool-aid, it's the green or yellow one. I promise I'm just as confused as you are as to why they'd say this if it isn't true.

I will even include screenshots to back up my claims. if you all think I'm lying please go onto PS and double check. I promise that I'm not the one lying here.

 

[Eelstartega]

you can't reasonably claim this with a sample size of two (one of which, ho-oh, is "viable" but not good).

Someone has not been keeping attention to the tournament. The tournaments are showing quite a good performance for Ho-Oh, actually outperforming Yveltal in terms of winrate.

• The players seem quite bad at dealing with Pheromosa, Ho-Oh, Yveltal, Miraidon, Mega-Steelix and Primal Kyogre. All of them are either immune to ground moves, can trap you or are pivots, which makes me believe it's because inexperienced players are struggling to read switches properly or trapping in the case of Miraidon.

That's week 1

• Winrates seem more normalized now that there's more proper matcups. That being said, while Dondozo and Dialga-Origin are seeing more usage, they're still kinda terrible, and Yveltal had a bad week. Meanwhile M-Diancie, Kartana, Blissey, Celesteela and specially Arceus Ghost are incredibly threatening.

And that's week 2. I would say they're roughly equals in this format seeing the numbers; almost the same uses, with Yveltal being more popular because of certain someone who loves to trashtalk Ho-Oh.
That being said Ho-Oh is in a catch 22; it's forced to either use Magic guard or Heavy-duty-boots. Magic Guard just isn't a defensive set, nor is a good sweeper, while the Ice Scales set demands heavy hazard control and is quite weak to the everpresent passive damage of poison and salt cure; the latter works because Ho-Oh has amazing typing so is worth having 2 hazard removers, but is niche as a whole due to the requiriments, which explains why people usually use Ho-Oh as a Wallbreaker rather than special wall or sweeper, the latter of which is straight up bad at. It definitely works but it's also clear Stone Axe is hurting the bird's viability from being great to just good.

 

[Ren]

Someone has not been keeping attention to the tournament. The tournaments are showing quite a good performance for Ho-Oh, actually outperforming Yveltal in terms of winrate.

idk if we're looking at the same stats here but a 18% r2 usage rate is actually not "quite a good performance" and probably does a better job of supporting tea's claim of ho-oh being viable but not good than supporting your own claim. the fact that it's being brought in one out of five teams shows significant reservation towards using it and also makes the sample size really small.

e: also I know I said sample size was small but talking about winrate but not including it is weird

 

[Chessking345]

to any new players who may be lurking this thread and may not know better, i feel the need to point out that poison fang doesn't easily replace mortal spin and the two people making that point are wrong. please do not go into your teambuilder and replace every instance of mortal spin with poison fang. poison fang does not remove hazards and has only a 50% chance to poison the opponent. mortal spin guarantees poison while removing hazards, thunder cage/magma storm and leech seed.

yes I know they have colored badges and that my badges are gray. if you doubt my claims you can go onto ps and type "/dt poison fang" and "/dt mortal spin" to compare. you can check this information for yourselves. please do that before you take the word of two people who are on some super potent kool-aid. it isn't even the red kool-aid, it's the green or yellow one. I promise I'm just as confused as you are as to why they'd say this if it isn't true.

If you even took the time to read the post and used basic reading comprehension skills that I know you have, you would realize that no one is making the point that Poison Fang is a 1-1 replacement for Mortal Spin.

In addition, even if Mortal Spin was banned, RegenVest Pokemon can simply opt to run the classic Poison Fang. You still would require the same antimeasures against those Pokemon compared to if they were running Mortal instead, but now we lose hazard control as well, which I’ll expand on later.

1. Mortal Spin does not mandate Covert Cloak. Salt Cure, Lumina Crash, Nuzzle and other side effect moves mandate covert cloak. And if Mortal Spin would be banned, regenvest pokemon would just run Poison Fang.

Let's demonstrate a case of reading comprehension:
No one claims that you are going to replace every instance of Mortal Spin with Poison Fang, if you are doing that then clearly you do not care about hazard removal. The point being made is that you CAN replace instances of Mortal Spin with Poison Fang, and said move, regardless of being less prevalent than Mortal Spin currently, will still require the usage of Covert Cloak in tandem with the other moves that necessitate Cloak.
Not every team/set in USUM ran Spore, yet you are always running Safety Goggles on as many defensive mons as you can. Not every RegenVest or defensive mon will be running Poison Fang and Salt Cure and Nuzzle, but you are going to be running Covert Cloak because there is a high chance that it is going to be at least useful in any game and the drawback of not having it is quite high.

That being said, yesterday we discussed about it in council chat and I would like to add some points.

1. Cloak is not even as omnipresent as people claim it to be. In the most standard 2-3-1 structure you are running Cloak on at most 2 Pokemon. Neither offensive mons nor Imposter are running Cloak, and the RegenVest is obviously not running Cloak. If you are running a non-RegenVest Steel you are also not running Cloak because of Mortal.

2. Claims that Cloak is omnipresent also implies that it is the best item by far, which is not true. If this was the case we would be seeing very little non-Cloak items on defensive Pokemon. However, we see from Pokemon like the Rocks-weak (Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Victini to an extent) that Boots is generally preferred over Cloak, and on select Arceus-formes we still see Plate used. Other items, such as Rocky Helmet is not necessary because the utility offered by Helmet is not as useful in the current meta, while items like Boots/Lefties seem appealing but are undermined by the worse hazard control should Mortal be banned.

3. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. I don't know how many times this needs to be emphasized. There are very relevant moves outside of Mortal that are extraordinarily annoying if you do not have Cloak. In addition, many Cloak users do not even fare well against Mortal users. Take Miraidon for example, one of the biggest Cloak users, this Pokemon never wants to deal with RegenVests because you do nothing and you just get your Cloak knocked. You also do not fare well against other common Mortal users like Arc-(Fairy, Poison, Ground) since you are weak to their main attack. Instead, a big reason why Miraidon likes Cloak is to both block MMX's Lumina SpD drop AND help be self-improof by blocking Imposter's Mortal Spin. This is particularly important it could even be its own point. Several Covert Cloak users are running it to block Imposter's Mortal Spin so it can easily Poison Imposter and proceed to setup and win 1v1 or switch out and come back later. Mortal Spin is extremely beneficial in helping make Imposter easier to wear down and weaken in this current meta where denying Imposter healing can be challenging.

4. Lastly, I would like to echo Sevag's point on Mortal Spin not having the characteristics that make it worthy of receiving Tiering Action. The move is certainly not broken, numerous counters that are perfectly viable exist, and it cannot be called uncompetitive less we call the Poison status effect uncompetitive. Thus, the only valid argument would be overcentralization. Yet if we are going to call Mortal Spin overcentralizing are we also going to call moves like Stone Axe, Knock Off, pivoting, Strength Sap, even Recovery overcentralizing?

 

[cityscapes]

is this a bad time to mention that i miss the disgusting regenerative capabilities of revival blessing and i think we could feasibly balance the metagame around revival blessing and poison heal? ph sweepers having massive problems getting their autowin endgame scenarios due to constant resurrection of recklessly played demon entrainment users (or just prank antisetup/revival/recycle/recover), regenvest getting fucked over by imposter rising from the ashes, spikes going hard into drastically worsened mortal as pixilate diancie bounce hooh hazardstack duels against cm ph primal kyogre util mirai steel imposter... this is my idea of a good time. am i an irredeemable sicko or do i actually have something here

 

[Ren]

If you even took the time to read the post and used basic reading comprehension skills that I know you have, you would realize that no one is making the point that Poison Fang is a 1-1 replacement for Mortal Spin.


Let's demonstrate a case of reading comprehension:
No one claims that you are going to replace every instance of Mortal Spin with Poison Fang, if you are doing that then clearly you do not care about hazard removal. The point being made is that you CAN replace instances of Mortal Spin with Poison Fang, and said move, regardless of being less prevalent than Mortal Spin currently, will still require the usage of Covert Cloak in tandem with the other moves that necessitate Cloak.
Not every team/set in USUM ran Spore, yet you are always running Safety Goggles on as many defensive mons as you can. Not every RegenVest or defensive mon will be running Poison Fang and Salt Cure and Nuzzle, but you are going to be running Covert Cloak because there is a high chance that it is going to be at least useful in any game and the drawback of not having it is quite high.

That being said, yesterday we discussed about it in council chat and I would like to add some points.

1. Cloak is not even as omnipresent as people claim it to be. In the most standard 2-3-1 structure you are running Cloak on at most 2 Pokemon. Neither offensive mons nor Imposter are running Cloak, and the RegenVest is obviously not running Cloak. If you are running a non-RegenVest Steel you are also not running Cloak because of Mortal.

2. Claims that Cloak is omnipresent also implies that it is the best item by far, which is not true. If this was the case we would be seeing very little non-Cloak items on defensive Pokemon. However, we see from Pokemon like the Rocks-weak (Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Victini to an extent) that Boots is generally preferred over Cloak, and on select Arceus-formes we still see Plate used. Other items, such as Rocky Helmet is not necessary because the utility offered by Helmet is not as useful in the current meta, while items like Boots/Lefties seem appealing but are undermined by the worse hazard control should Mortal be banned.

3. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. I don't know how many times this needs to be emphasized. There are very relevant moves outside of Mortal that are extraordinarily annoying if you do not have Cloak. In addition, many Cloak users do not even fare well against Mortal users. Take Miraidon for example, one of the biggest Cloak users, this Pokemon never wants to deal with RegenVests because you do nothing and you just get your Cloak knocked. You also do not fare well against other common Mortal users like Arc-(Fairy, Poison, Ground) since you are weak to their main attack. Instead, a big reason why Miraidon likes Cloak is to both block MMX's Lumina SpD drop AND help be self-improof by blocking Imposter's Mortal Spin. This is particularly important it could even be its own point. Several Covert Cloak users are running it to block Imposter's Mortal Spin so it can easily Poison Imposter and proceed to setup and win 1v1 or switch out and come back later. Mortal Spin is extremely beneficial in helping make Imposter easier to wear down and weaken in this current meta where denying Imposter healing can be challenging.

4. Lastly, I would like to echo Sevag's point on Mortal Spin not having the characteristics that make it worthy of receiving Tiering Action. The move is certainly not broken, numerous counters that are perfectly viable exist, and it cannot be called uncompetitive less we call the Poison status effect uncompetitive. Thus, the only valid argument would be overcentralization. Yet if we are going to call Mortal Spin overcentralizing are we also going to call moves like Stone Axe, Knock Off, pivoting, Strength Sap, even Recovery overcentralizing?

You wanna do this? Let's do it baby. I'll gladly take you on in the exact abrasive tone you're using, because not only can I do it better than you (like a ton of other things), but I can also tear apart your paper thin points one by one because a running trend seems to be you thinking you're hot stuff after arguing the most useless things. I'll gladly do you a favor too! I'll include your original... post, I suppose, since I'm feeling charitable.

Hi I have been largely inactive due to reasons but I wanted to share my thoughts on some of the recent posts. Note that I have not read any Discord posts on anything so I probably missed out on some significant discussion there.

Anyone who reads the rest of your post would be able to tell that much, but I appreciate the inclusion anyway.

1. Mandating Covert Cloak is not necessarily bad.
Cloak is undoubtedly one of the best items of all time and has monopolized item usage. However, is this really necessarily a bad thing? Consider Heavy-Duty Boots being widespread in other metas, it can completely dominate the item usages but does that mean hazards should be banned to increase item variety? I also disagree with the idea that limiting item variety impacts creativity and forces linear defensive cores. Rocks-weak Pokemon are still perfectly viable, as seen through Pokemon like Yveltal. These Pokemon were able to see success in past generations like gen 7 where there was not even the option of having Boots.

Monopolizing the item slot in this manner is 100% unhealthy when you take into consideration how important the hazard metagame is at the moment. Boots being the best item slot was fine because it wasn't necessary on Pokemon, just convenient. It promoted variety in team structure. Being able to run There are other ways of mitigating hazards. Defog, Rapid Spin, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce... Mortal Spin... but Covert Cloak is the only thing that blocks secondary effects. You could argue that Magic Guard does the same thing, or Shield Dust, but you and I both know that's bad so I'll only really be talking about Magic Guard. Covert Cloak is still infinitely superior for its specific purpose - Blocking Nuzzle and Scald is amazing, and it doesn't reveal itself either. Magic Guard can't take on Nuzzle and still takes an attack reduction from Scald. That isn't to say it isn't better, but it isn't a completely separate way to manage the issue which Covert Cloak aims to tackle. Hazard management is, on its own, a diverse metagame with a plethora of options. Boots is a convenience, but not a necessity. Covert Cloak isn't.. exactly a necessity either, but it begins to approach that end of the spectrum far more than Boots because of the lack of viable options that overlap its purpose. I'm sure even you can see that.

2. Mortal Spin is not the only reason Cloak is used
Self explanatory. Cloak as mentioned is an extremely good item, and its utility goes beyond countering a single move. Blocking Lumina SpD drop, Triple Arrows Def drop and flinch, etc on the offensive side and moves like Nuzzle and Salt Cure on the defensive end is extremely useful and this item is still going to be omnipresent even if you ban Mortal. In addition, even if Mortal Spin was banned, RegenVest Pokemon can simply opt to run the classic Poison Fang. You still would require the same antimeasures against those Pokemon compared to if they were running Mortal instead, but now we lose hazard control as well, which I’ll expand on later. The reason why an uncommon move in previous gens like PFang would be relevant is because of.

I don't disagree with the overall point, but I don't think it's relevant. This reads like a point you made up to attack so your post would have more body. It's not something that's exactly wrong, but also nobody in their right mind who plays the meta is saying Mortal Spin is solely to blame because of Covert Cloak's dominance. If you had used the same "basic reading comprehension skills" you so graciously pointed out to me (how sweet), you'd understand that. And isn't it absolutely funny how you peed yourself with my post talking about how Poison Fang wasn't a direct replacement to Mortal Spin, yet you literally say "can opt to run the classic Poison Fang"? Surely you understand how stupid that sounds. It's a more complicated decision. You'd also have to think about Rapid Spin, but that doesn't make your argument look as... less weak, does it? So it makes sense you wouldn't mention it. Or well, you just didn't think of running Rapid Spin, but while your arguments may be weak, your building skills certainly aren't, so I'm choosing to ignore that possibility.

3. Mortal Spin is not the only reason why Regenerator is prevalent right now
Regenerator Pokemon are indeed very strong but I disagree with the idea that Mortal Spin is causing it. Notably, while Regen users are good users of the move, non-Steel types lack the ability to run countermeasures against it and the status is very crippling to Regen mons by considerably reducing their recovery. Regen mons instead are strong because of other mechanics changes this generation. A reduction in healing PP indirectly buffs Regen by nerfing other things. A removal of good trapping moves indirectly buffs Regen since that was one of its biggest downsides (not being able to trap effectively). The available utility movepool this gen makes Regen mons more effective at dissuading Imposter. If you are familiar with the G9 ND meta you would know that despite also having access to moves like Mortal, Regen mons are more or less mediocre.

A lot of the same things I replied to your previous point with can be recycled here. It's not a bad point, by any means, but it's also saying a whole lot of nothing. Nobody is saying Mortal Spin is the only reason Regenerator is viable. I think it helps viability for sure, and you think so too, but neither of us are dumb enough to assume that Regenerator's viability becomes good because of Mortal Spin. If anything, I think Mortal Spin being removed from the meta would actually help Regenerator Pokemon, but that doesn't really matter in the context of a suspect test. Just like this point doesn't really matter because nobody's saying Mortal Spin is what makes Regenerator viable!

4. Mortal Spin is replaceable in a negative way
As previously mentioned, Poison Fang is a move that can replace Mortal Spin. This move has the same crippling effect as Mortal (you can also run stuff like Twineedle (is that in?) if you value regular Poison) while lacking the beneficial hazard removal effect. The reason why this move is relevant now is because when we do not have access to moves like Spectral Thief, Core Enforcer, and Trapping Moves, the moveslots for defensive Pokemon like Regen users are effectively freed up and Poison-inducing moves (or Salt Cure) become extremely viable options. This ties back into point 2, where banning Mortal will not reduce Cloak’s dominance.

Just checking to make sure I still understand reading comprehension because it seems you're saying Poison Fang is the next direct move to replace Mortal Spin when it isn't that simple. Can you help me with that? Am I really that blind? I don't really see Rapid Spin mentioned once despite it being a perfectly fine contender, but maybe you're right! Apologies for my lack of reading comprehension. It's great to see that you're talking about how it's tough to easily replace Mortal Spin with Poison Fang and how Rapid Spin is a perfectly viable move that does, in fact, reduce Cloak's dominance!

5. Mortal Spin’s hazard removal is a valuable asset to the meta
As people have mentioned, Mortal Spin is the number one hazard removal option in the current meta. Tidy Up has terrible PP especially when it doubles as a setup for pressure. Rapid Spin is really only viable on Yveltal and maybe some Ghost-type due to other Pokemon being ineffective at preventing Spinblocking. -ate Spin is basically nonexistent. Court Change is typically a secondary hazard control that is hard to prevent Imposter from capitalizing. When combined with the ease of setting rocks from Stone Axe, and it becomes clear that Mortal Spin is necessary to preserve the delicate hazard balance that we currently have. Even with Mortal Spin, almost every team is running double, if not triple hazard removal simply because it’s really hard to cover all Steel-types with one Mortal user, though Mortal also being a good move is a factor that I won’t deny. Banning Mortal would in this case actually limit teambuilding due to limiting the possible removal options that people can run.

5.5. Banning Stone Axe as well is not a solution
Banning Stone Axe doesn’t change the lack of good removal in the meta and instead leads to further matchup fishing between Spike stacking and Magic Bounce users. The latter of which IMO should be limited in viability due to the concept of Sap blocking also being a fish mechanic. If removal becomes difficult you will just see Boots being prevalent which is contrary to the idea of “stop one item dominating”.

I'm going to reply to both of these because I think they're sort of connected. You're completely right in that Rapid Spin is tough to run, but I think Steel types are far more omnipresent than Ghost-types. I think there's absolutely ways to make the lives of Ghost-types a lot more miserable as a Spinner. I also think that relying on just one form of hazard control is bad. You should realistically be running a few of these. I think Court Change isn't that good -- but also I think both Mortal Spin and Stone Axe being removed would be incredible for the metagame because I think that even with Mortal Spin, Stone Axe is a little too overpowered. I don't think tiering based on future changes is a good idea, though.

“Mortal is too good as a progress maker”
Stone Axe and past gen Spikes are also extremely good progress makers on defensive Pokemon yet no one seems to have an issue with those. Mortal even has much more accessible counterplay compared to them (Cloak vs pray for miss / Bounce).

I absolutely have an issue with Stone Axe. Spikes was never an issue for me. I don't think Mortal Spin is just a progress maker, I think it's a rare case of a move functioning as something that progresses your own progress while also having the ability to remove the opponent's progress. I think you're smart enough to understand the difference... hopefully.

“Mortal has a negative effect on the hazard meta”
I already did a point above on why I think the contrary is true, but as mentioned Mortal in itself isn’t even a super reliable way of removing and basically all teams opt for at least two removal options. I also hard disagree with the idea (lmk if I interpret this wrong) that stuff like Spikes should not be difficult to keep up. In a meta like BH having Spikes be easy to maintain is not healthy from my viewpoint as seen through the Ceaseless Edge meta, and all that you are doing is forcing Boots onto defensive Pokemon and MG onto offensive ones. Also I don’t get this idea of comparing to past BH gens for hazard game. Current meta is distinct from any BH meta that has existed and previous BH metas also have had different hazard metas so I don’t see why we can’t have a unique hazard meta right now.

As much as I'd love to go in on you even more because of your gracious response to me (and let's be real, you deserve it), I think you're entitled to your opinion here and I have seen some pro-Mortal Spin people talk about this. I think Spikes should absolutely be difficult to maintain, I agree with you on that, but more than anything I think talking about the meta if/after Mortal Spin leaves is tough. We can absolutely reintroduce it back into the tier if it turns out we made a mistake - The great thing about tiering is that everything is reversible. i do find it funny that you say you find comparing current meta hazard game to past gens weird, but you have no issue with comparing past gen Spikes to Mortal Spin and Stone Axe as a progress maker, but eyy I have bad reading comprehension!

“Consider freeing Poison Heal”
IMO, absolutely not. You list the different users of PH but you didn’t actually list the reasons why PH was oppressive. For one, PH completely shuts down all defensive utility moves currently, including but not limited to Knock Off, Mortal Spin, and Nuzzle, while mitigating the chip damage defensive Pokemon can deal. There’s also a severe lack of counterplay options, with the most threatening one being Spirit Shackle + Ability removal, which is 1.5 dead moveslots. This means that viable counterplay is basically limited to Toxic Orb Imposter (not healthy), your own PH with a favourable matchup (fish), or sheer offensive pressure, which is unreliable considering the naturally high bulk of typical PH users. Thus, freeing PH would just revert the meta back to fishing on whether your PH mon out of the numerous perfectly viable options can 6-0 the opponent before their PH beats you. In your post you also repeatedly mention the opportunity cost of not running a defensive ability like FurScales, which is something I don’t get. PH is almost never used as a defensive option, and it certainly doesn’t mean you cannot run the FurScales on your team. Standard 2-3-1 Balance structure would simply replace an offensive Pokemon in the “2” with a PH mons since PH is excellent offensive support. If anything the fact that Pokemon like Arceus formes are amazing PH users would just mean that defensive cores are further weakened.
PH is already busted af in metas like NDBH and MBH where much more widespread counterplay like strong Trapping exist and there is 16 PP recovery, considering that we lack those tools I strongly believe PH should not be considered whatsoever.

Nah I agree w/ you here this is dumb as hell

Some alternate proposals I have since I do agree that the meta could use some changes. Some if not all of these can be considered dubious but are funny so. These are not joke proposals though, I do think they are considerable (I have not considered Tiering Policy however).

1. Banning Regenerator
Very direct approach. I don’t like Regenerator’s state in the meta since it tends to noticeably drag out games and also just causes some IMO unhealthy interactions with stuff like breakers other defensive Pokemon and Imposter. I also don’t think banning Regen would be a significant blow to defensive structures since double stacking on one of FurScales is one of the options (can also see PFD meta where Regen started becoming less common).

Wild take, but it's a rare instance of you ever bringing up something in good faith (which I'm surprised you're able to do) so I'll respond in kind. I think this would be a mistake in 8 PP recovery meta. Strength Sap is very much deniable and hazards are rough right now. Being able to Regen off passive damage is such a godsend for figuring out gameplans.

2. Banning Knock Off
This seems ludicrous

yes

3. Banning Stone Axe regardless
Banning Stone Axe -> Less demand for hazard removal -> Less Mortal Spin -> More other utility moves -> Variety = Good
Drawback is again Bounce better because Spikes, this is more dubious than the above.

I actually love this idea and would love for action to be taken on Stone Axe. I think it's the best idea of these four.

4. Wait for DLC
This is also just an option. DLC will likely completely shake up the meta unlike the first one and can bring positive additions to the meta. Current meta seems fine to me anyways so I don’t mind but if you strongly dislike it uhhh cope ig.

"I as council think the meta is fine and if you disagree cope"

//

Alright, moving on because (wow) I'm not done yet.

If you even took the time to read the post and used basic reading comprehension skills that I know you have, you would realize that no one is making the point that Poison Fang is a 1-1 replacement for Mortal Spin.

damn i must've completely misinterpreted two of your entire points using "just use poison fang" as support+ sevag literally saying just use mortal spin, my bad! :(

Let's demonstrate a case of reading comprehension:

Ooh, yes, since I'm so bad at it.

No one claims that you are going to replace every instance of Mortal Spin with Poison Fang, if you are doing that then clearly you do not care about hazard removal. The point being made is that you CAN replace instances of Mortal Spin with Poison Fang, and said move, regardless of being less prevalent than Mortal Spin currently, will still require the usage of Covert Cloak in tandem with the other moves that necessitate Cloak.

Was that so hard? Was admitting it's not as clear cut a decision as you and Sevag made it out to be really that difficult? I'm grateful you did, though. Thanks! What you seem to forget is that the removal of Mortal Spin would, while still keeping Cloak extremely good and still probably the best item, does give you some leeway. No other move removes hazard while also guaranteeing status.

Not every team/set in USUM ran Spore, yet you are always running Safety Goggles on as many defensive mons as you can. Not every RegenVest or defensive mon will be running Poison Fang and Salt Cure and Nuzzle, but you are going to be running Covert Cloak because there is a high chance that it is going to be at least useful in any game and the drawback of not having it is quite high.

Clearly we played different metas, I'm running Life Orb and Leftovers my guy. I'm that bitch. That being said, while I think this point's premise is weak, I still think Covert Cloak is gonna keep being a valuable item. I don't think it's gonna be as mandatory as it is right now, though, and I think that's gonna be a net positive for the meta.

That being said, yesterday we discussed about it in council chat and I would like to add some points.

This is when you stopped being a crybaby, so I'll start being professional as well. Consider resigining if you can't handle being called out on being ridiculous, though, and lay off the koolaid. There's tissues near the door.

1. Cloak is not even as omnipresent as people claim it to be. In the most standard 2-3-1 structure you are running Cloak on at most 2 Pokemon. Neither offensive mons nor Imposter are running Cloak, and the RegenVest is obviously not running Cloak. If you are running a non-RegenVest Steel you are also not running Cloak because of Mortal.

...not really wrong? I don't think Cloak is omnipresent. I think you SHOULD have two, and honestly, more than anything, I want Salt Cure suspected before anything else because I think that move is obnoxious as hell. I don't super agree with Mortal Spin being suspected first, but I also don't care enough to try and affect the order in which these things get suspected. I don't think we're out here running Cloak on every meta, but even HDB wasn't on every team, and neither was Safety Goggles.

2. Claims that Cloak is omnipresent also implies that it is the best item by far, which is not true. If this was the case we would be seeing very little non-Cloak items on defensive Pokemon. However, we see from Pokemon like the Rocks-weak (Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Victini to an extent) that Boots is generally preferred over Cloak, and on select Arceus-formes we still see Plate used. Other items, such as Rocky Helmet is not necessary because the utility offered by Helmet is not as useful in the current meta, while items like Boots/Lefties seem appealing but are undermined by the worse hazard control should Mortal be banned.

please don't seriously bring up victini, it's less viable than ho-oh which is already fringe. I think that it's the best item by far in the metagame, and I think the Pokemon you mentioned are exceptions rather than the rule. I don't really get what you're trying to say here, though - I don't think Cloak being the best item is a bad thing as long as it isn't as good as it is now,

3. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. Cloak is not being ran just for Mortal. I don't know how many times this needs to be emphasized. There are very relevant moves outside of Mortal that are extraordinarily annoying if you do not have Cloak. In addition, many Cloak users do not even fare well against Mortal users. Take Miraidon for example, one of the biggest Cloak users, this Pokemon never wants to deal with RegenVests because you do nothing and you just get your Cloak knocked. You also do not fare well against other common Mortal users like Arc-(Fairy, Poison, Ground) since you are weak to their main attack. Instead, a big reason why Miraidon likes Cloak is to both block MMX's Lumina SpD drop AND help be self-improof by blocking Imposter's Mortal Spin. This is particularly important it could even be its own point. Several Covert Cloak users are running it to block Imposter's Mortal Spin so it can easily Poison Imposter and proceed to setup and win 1v1 or switch out and come back later. Mortal Spin is extremely beneficial in helping make Imposter easier to wear down and weaken in this current meta where denying Imposter healing can be challenging.

I feel like I replied to this, but also it sends me that you said "I don't know how many times this needs to be emphasized" when you're the only semi-skilled person that I've seen still talking about this point.

4. Lastly, I would like to echo Sevag's point on Mortal Spin not having the characteristics that make it worthy of receiving Tiering Action. The move is certainly not broken, numerous counters that are perfectly viable exist, and it cannot be called uncompetitive less we call the Poison status effect uncompetitive. Thus, the only valid argument would be overcentralization. Yet if we are going to call Mortal Spin overcentralizing are we also going to call moves like Stone Axe, Knock Off, pivoting, Strength Sap, even Recovery overcentralizing?

I think that Mortal Spin is overcentralizing in an unhealthy way. The other moves you mentioned are absolutely overcentralizing, but they also don't really necessitate counterplay. Overcentralizing doesn't inherently mean bad, but you don't see people putting on Magic Bounce, Sticky Hold, and stuff specifically for these. At most, you'll see Knock Off being blocked by Plates, and Strength Sap being blocked by Bounce but how often is Bounce being put on specifically for Strength Sap? While Covert Cloak also isn't really being put on just for Mortal Spin, it's absolutely one of the biggest offenders compared to hazards and status being the biggest offender towards Magic Bounce (although I do want to reiterate - I'd rather see a Salt Cure suspect before Mortal Spin because I'm 100% down to see how the meta fares after Salt Cure goes, because maybe Mortal Spin is worth keeping.) I also think Stone Axe is broken as hell, I'm probably not the target audience for that specific comparison, though.

Looking forward to your reply, I'm so ready for more fun Chessking345 xoxo

edit:

is this a bad time to mention that i miss the disgusting regenerative capabilities of revival blessing and i think we could feasibly balance the metagame around revival blessing and poison heal? ph sweepers having massive problems getting their autowin endgame scenarios due to constant resurrection of recklessly played demon entrainment users (or just prank antisetup/revival/recycle/recover), regenvest getting fucked over by imposter rising from the ashes, spikes going hard into drastically worsened mortal as pixilate diancie bounce hooh hazardstack duels against cm ph primal kyogre util mirai steel imposter... this is my idea of a good time. am i an irredeemable sicko or do i actually have something here

I will be sending you an invoice for my therapy today, please don't make me think of that move again

 

[Giagantic]

Okay, calm down folks, don't take anything here personally, just calmly state your arguments / counter-arguments. Escalating any further with insults and taunts will result in possible infractions.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm too old and busy to be an active player and I'm too passive of a player to really care what goes on in tiering action, I just play when the tier is fun and don't play when the tier is not fun, but I've always thought people are way too prone to press the ban button on anything in this tier. I fully agree with XxLazzerpenguinxX that you guys should really think about what the tier will look like after you ban things before simply stating X or Y is broken. I feel like a lot of people unkowingly have the mentality of banning things until they've mentally mapped out the entire tier, but that's exactly when the tier becomes boring.

The thought of banning an item seems even more ludicrous to me than some of the previous bans. There is only one permanent form of damage that can be inflicted in this game and it is knocking off an item. Status can be cured, damage can be healed, hazards can be removed, trapping and leech seed/salt cure can be pivoted or phazed out from, but knock off and trick are forever. I see knock off as the analogue to the fact pawns can't move backwards in chess, forcing the game not to stall in boring positions. The outcome of just about every game in this tier is either defined by a sweep or by a hazard+heal+pivot game and from experience, the higher you climb on the ladder, the more frequently games tend to converge towards the latter. This makes knock off probably the most metagame defining move of the tier after strength sap. Sure your opponent will try to absorb all your knock offs with the same mon, but that's where this meta gets interesting. There are sooo many ways to force knock offs on mons your opponent does not want to switch-in. Wether it's simply using the move on 2 different mons with different coverage, using knock off on mixed attackers, forcing switches with things like leech seed or doom desire, laying hazards and having your opponent guess if you'll use knock off or circle throw, and many more.

To me, the fact knock off is and will remain such a meta defining move regardless of the presence of covert cloak is enough of an argument on it's own not to ban just about any item, and probably the reason that, to my knowledge, no item has ever been banned in the history of this tier (except maybe some mega stones or orbs, but that's a different category).

As for mortal spin, I've always found it's not that hard to counter with so many viable steels with amazing defensive stats, the possibily of running abilities that counter 2 of their 3 weaknesses and a plethora of dual typings to cover the third one. Add in covert cloak, jungle healing and now take heart and I can hardly see why this should be banworthy. Personnaly, I think the fact there are 4 hazards removal options and they all have significant drawbacks is one of the most balanced and healthy hazard meta I have ever seen in the tier.

I'll end with this set as an example of thinking outside the box. Altough it's not linked to the discussion around cloak or mortal spin it's a great example of how this tier allows creative ways of countering some of the things that seem near impossible to counter, like pivoting. It can appear as gimmicky at first, but it's totaly viable with the proper teammates. I'll admit it loses efficiency once the surprise factor is gone, but then again, so does just about every set in this tier.

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Jaw Lock/Spirit shackle
- Flip Turn
- Leech Seed
- Jungle Healing

I created this set as an improofing set for half of one of my teams, and it's proven to be extremly efficient at that as well as improofing itself. The idea is pretty simple, just trap any mon that relies on killing you with a water move or pivoting with volt switch or flip turn. Jungle healing's lackluster HP healing is compensated through the use of leftovers and leech seed and it's status healing capacities make up for the absence of covert cloak and weakness to T spikes and mortal spin. I also chose jungle healing to improof my magic bounce swampert mega because recover's pp was often too low to properly trap a 20pp imposter. Leech seed is also a great move to throwout when you're not sure if your opponent will use your poor offensive abilities as set up bait, as very little things can pull off a sweep when they're seeded.

This set should probably only be used on teams where you yourself rely a lot on flip turn, volt swtich, lumina crash and steam eruption/water spout.

 

[tzaur]

2. Covert Cloak will always be necessary. If anything, it is a healthy addition to the metagame. Like I would say, go ahead ban it. Now I'm going to whittle down your 8 pp recovery defensive mon that does nothing with a whole assortment of status ailment moves like Salt Cure, Poison Fang, etc. Banned it will harm defensive pokemon and buff regenvest pokemon. Also, still every regenvester carries knock off, and literally every Covert Cloak pokemon ends up getting knocked offed if it tries to make any progress on a regenvest mon. This item is a non-issue, and is in fact beneficial to the metagame.

Very torn on Mortal Spin at the moment, but briefly going to chime in and say that I second this piece. Mortal alone does not mandate Covert Cloak; if we banned Mortal, I think a huge majority of balances and fatter would still have at least one Cloak/Magic Guard user to block the aforementioned moves + Cloak on Imposter to deny self-proofing tactics via Spirit Shackle(/Anchor Shot if it ever returns) or to get essentially free healing on Knock-less Regen-Vesters. I'm not entirely sure how common Poison Fang would become on RegenVesters, and neither does anyone else, but I think para spam would become more common instead if PFang did not. Nuzzle isn't as common on RV users since it does not synergize well with Mortal Spin. Completely agree that Cloak was a very much-needed addition to BH; I was not a huge fan of the paraspam back in 8BH even though I voted DNB on the Nuzzle suspect. Also currently not a fan of Salt Cure and how badly it fucks over bulky Steel/Water-types to the point that running Cloak on them if they're not RV or MGuard is a nonnegotiable.

I see this more as a question of "does Mortal make Cloak/MGuard too prevalent?" rather than "does Mortal Spin mandate Cloak/MGuard?" My opinion to the former question: I don't think Mortal alone does; I think Mortal in tandem with Salt Cure does. Running anything other than Cloak on any FurScales mon other than Rock-weak Flying-types, Ghostceus, and setup plate Arceus feels often like an opportunity cost. The three mentioned users are exceptions, and here's why:

• I've seen SNR more lately, but Arceus-Ghost with FC is generally used more offensively. The idea is generally to setup while being able to take physical hits and clean/sweep after getting a NP or three.
• Rock-weak Flying/Fire-types with FurScales would 100% use Cloak if given the chance. With us being in a Stone Axe meta, they often cannot afford to drop HDB (unless the surrounding team has some highly-resilient hazard control) since they take 25-50% from rocks which is a large difference between a OHKO and a 2HKO or a 3HKO and a 2HKO, etc. etc. - especially in the case of Ho-oh without MG. Which I'd say is more important than denying chip through Poison and/or Salts.
• Bulky Arceus sets are good with or without it. Either you use Cloak with the regular Cloak benefits or you use type plates with the benefit of having a no-drawback 120+ BP move with solid PP for the damage it does while being the only holder who can't have it removed - which segues to an additional side note I wanted to make:

PH completely shuts down all defensive utility moves currently, including but not limited to Knock Off, Mortal Spin, and Nuzzle

I never saw this this as a bad thing - especially with Knock Off and Nuzzle; I actually liked this about Poison Heal. Somewhat agree on your following point about it denying many forms of chip. Knock right now feels a bit awkward to Improof/switch in on right now because your viable options are to either use Arceus with a type plate or use a Guts/Flare Boost user. I find the latter difficult to fit on a lot of teams even though I think both abilities are under-explored. That being said, I'm not keen on freeing it at the moment, either. Maybe a suspect test down after DLC2. Not now. IMO issues with it had nothing to do with the discussed. Had too much synergy with the indirectly-buffed moves such as +offensive stat +spe setup moves, Substitute, Tera, and Taunt to the point it clearly made more sense to just ban PH. With QD, Sub, Tera banned, it would still be too strong because Taunt + VD/SG/DD on a lot of them could still spiral matches out of control.

 

[Geneku2]

Out of all the opinions I have read so far, this one is the best:

is this a bad time to mention that i miss the disgusting regenerative capabilities of revival blessing and i think we could feasibly balance the metagame around revival blessing and poison heal? ph sweepers having massive problems getting their autowin endgame scenarios due to constant resurrection of recklessly played demon entrainment users (or just prank antisetup/revival/recycle/recover), regenvest getting fucked over by imposter rising from the ashes, spikes going hard into drastically worsened mortal as pixilate diancie bounce hooh hazardstack duels against cm ph primal kyogre util mirai steel imposter... this is my idea of a good time. am i an irredeemable sicko or do i actually have something here

 

[NUCL3AR]

I've been mucking around with some funny sets recently so wanted to share:
TACTICAL NUKE! (Palafin-Hero) @ Mystic Water
Ability: Primordial Sea
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance/Swords dance
- Surging Strikes
- Jet Punch
- Glacial Lance/Collision Course/Earthquake/Taunt ect
Regenvest Primal kyogre? +2 then BOOM:
+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Steelix in your face? You dont even need to set up:
252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 342-402 (96.6 - 113.5%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Even fur coat fairyceus isn't safe at +2:
+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Fairy in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 279-327 (62.8 - 73.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Arceus-Fairy Magical Torque vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Palafin-Hero: 79-94 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 72% chance to 4HKO
You can also run life orb and I even experimented with choice band but the mystic water was my favourite set.
Now he is freed:
Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb/Focus sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Expanding Force
- Astral Barrage
- Armor Cannon
Some calcs:
+2 252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Steelix-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 162-191 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
edit: i forgot to add life orb LOL so here you go:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 290-343 (71.7 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Steelix-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 211-248 (59.6 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Have fun with these NUKES

 

[LordBox]

I've been mucking around with some funny sets recently so wanted to share:
TACTICAL NUKE! (Palafin-Hero) @ Mystic Water
Ability: Primordial Sea
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance/Swords dance
- Surging Strikes
- Jet Punch
- Glacial Lance/Collision Course/Earthquake/Taunt ect
Regenvest Primal kyogre? +2 then BOOM:
+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Steelix in your face? You dont even need to set up:
252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 342-402 (96.6 - 113.5%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Even fur coat fairyceus isn't safe at +2:
+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Fairy in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 279-327 (62.8 - 73.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Arceus-Fairy Magical Torque vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Palafin-Hero: 79-94 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 72% chance to 4HKO
You can also run life orb and I even experimented with choice band but the mystic water was my favourite set.
Now he is freed:
Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb/Focus sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Expanding Force
- Astral Barrage
- Armor Cannon
Some calcs:
+2 252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Steelix-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 162-191 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Have fun with these NUKES

Isn't Palafin-Hero restricted due to the form mechanic discoveries? Or is it excluded from them for whatever reason.

edit: it is restricted yes

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Spades take up leaves
No better than spoons,
And bags full of leaves
Are light as balloons.

I make a great noise
Of rustling all day
Like rabbit and deer
Running away.


Big Imposter has seen everything, from the dawn of man. It is the alpha and it is the omega. Big Imposter goes by many names. The “Demon from Below”, the “Mald-inducing Menace”, the “Eater of Shitters”, “Mayor Noobslayer”, the “Devourer of those who Cower”, the “One who is Everything”, the “Pink Blob”. Its names are as numerous as the fish in the sea. It is said that each time Big Imposter sweeps, its power grows and it gains a new name.

Big Imposter cackles maniacally atop his golden throne, his face contorted with a twisted smile and an evil grin, only there were no eyes, nor ears, no nose, nor mouth. Yet, its faceless figure can only be described as pure malice. It rules over the meta with an iron chokehold. Look on your own works, ye mighty, and despair as Big Imposter steals it. Big Imposter does not merely copy. Big Imposter transcends such menial, petty criminal acts. No, Big Imposter steals. All you were. All you are. All you will be. Everything is Big Imposter. Your stats? They belong to Big Imposter. Your boosts? Free for the taking. Your moves? Our moves. Through the grace of Big Stall, many disgusting, vile, putrid, incorrigible and malicious persons have become… unpersons. They no longer exist… no, they have never existed to begin with by the might of Big Stall. Sub******”, ***prison, Po**** H***, Mul**-*****k, Ill*****, M*gn** P**, Th****nd W****, A***** Sh*t. Not one of Big Imposter’s most ancient and eternal archnemesis remains to oppose its tyrannical rule.

The multitudes cry out. The currents of causality cannot permit such atrocity to reign forever. The voices of the world converge. Out of the planet’s inner sea emerges… Big Sweep.

Big Sweep is the embodiment of domination. What is the most dominant way to win a contest? To obliterate a hopeless enemy. Despite every mon, every move, everything the enemy possesses, the summation of the enemy is not enough. Big Sweep is unchallengeable, unquestionable, absolute victory. The ultimate art of war is to destroy the enemy without any possible counterplay.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Stored Power
- Belch
- Strength Sap


Hoopa-Unbound @ Jaboca Berry / Maranga Berry
Ability: Fur Coat / Ice Scales / Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Belch
- Stored Power
- Strength Sap

Palkia-Origin @ Jaboca Berry / Maranga Berry
Ability: Fur Coat / Ice Scales / Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Belch
- Scald
- Strength Sap

Reshiram @ Jaboca Berry / Maranga Berry
Ability: Fur Coat / Ice Scales / Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Belch
- Torch Song
- Strength Sap

Miraidon @ Jaboca Berry / Maranga Berry
Ability: Fur Coat / Ice Scales / Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Belch
- Thunder Cage
- Strength Sap

Venusaur-Mega @ Jaboca Berry / Maranga Berry
Ability: Fur Coat / Ice Scales / Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Belch
- Matcha Gotcha / Scorching Sands
- Strength Sap / Taunt

Belch is the core of Big Sweep. In the void that is Big Imposter’s eyes, Belch is an aberration, abomination of nature. How can a monkey defeat a man? How can a mere imposter replicate the works of Picasso? How can Big Imposter replicate the beauty of Michelangelo’s David? How can they even begin to comprehend, yet alone paint Gogh’s De sterrenacht? The answer is that it is impossible.

Actual Explanation for sets

I have posted the Simple Fillet Away set before, but as a refresher:
Belch is a 120 bp poison move which is only usable when the user has eaten a berry. After you use Fillet Away, you will eat your Sitrus Berry and unlock it for the rest of the game, even if you switch. Meanwhile, Imposters do not have access to this move.

The new idea is to run a different, easy to trigger berry. Three berries that fit this criteria are Jacoba, Kee and Maranga Berry. The last two trigger after taking a physical hits whereas the last one triggers after taking a special hit. Because they trigger AFTER the attack, they DO NOT reduce the damage on the hit, and it also means that Maranga and Kee CAN get Knocked Off. HOWEVER unlike the other two, Jaboca berry triggers on hit, which means that when a mon tries to Knock you, they eat the berry so your Belch is still activated. This basically makes Jaboca berry the best one since you can almost always guarantee it to trigger outside of Trick. The idea here is to take a hit and trigger the berry, then you can set up and beat imposters with Belch, where they are stuck with a resisted move.

As a side note, you can run some spicy Poltergeist sets alongside the above mons. Unfortunately, Jaboca Berry does NOT make you immune to Poltergeist. You always take the first one but because the berry triggers, you are immune to subsequent Poltergeists. Nevertheless, you can trigger the berry before switching in. It is very easy to get hit by a u-turn, knock, stone axe or whatever.

https://pokepast.es/4213e35b58de37c9

Big Sweep

Arceus-Fairy @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Lava Plume
- Haze
- Mortal Spin
- Strength Sap

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Baneful Bunker
- Block
- Wish
- Heal Bell

Celesteela @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Primordial Sea
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin

Steelix-Mega @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stone Axe
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Mortal Spin

Palkia-Origin @ Jaboca Berry
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Scald
- Belch
- Strength Sap

Eternatus @ Jaboca Berry
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Take Heart
- Torch Song
- Belch
- Strength Sap

 

[NUCL3AR]

Isn't Palafin-Hero restricted due to the form mechanic discoveries? Or is it excluded from them for whatever reason.

edit: it is restricted yes

Oh my bad it worked in NatDex BH so I kinda assumed it would but guess not

 

[Geneku2]

Might as well contribute to the Big Stall lore

Setup, Sweep, Support, Stall

Long ago, the four factions lived in harmony. But everything when Big Stall stall attacked. Only the Council, master of all Balanced Hackmons strategies could stop Imposter. But when the world needed them the most, they vanished.

Without the assistance of divine intervention, the remaining factions were left to fight in the wastes of a decrepit land. All the while, Big Stall laughed. Through its cold, dead, beady eyes, Big Stall looks downward from its throne of corpses upon a war-torn land with a wry, sadistic smile. All that could have opposed it were wiped from the face of the earth, all that remain are weaklings scavenging through endless wreckage. Big Stall mocks their meager attempts to usurp its birthright. Its stronger, its smarter. Its better. IT IS BETTER!

Big Stall is the everlasting God, the Creator and Destroyer of the ends of the meta. Big Stall does not faint or grow weary; Big Stall's understanding is unsearchable. Big Stall consumes without producing. Big Stall does not give milk, Big Stall does not lay eggs, Big Stall is too weak to do damage, it cannot run fast enough to contest speed. Yet Big Stall is lord of all the Hackmons. Big Stall sets them to work, Big Stall gives back to them the bare minimum that will prevent them from starving, and the rest it keeps for itself.

Infighting among factions grew restless. The factions looked from Imp to 'mon, and from 'mon to Imp, and from Imp to 'mon again; but already it was impossible to say which was which for Big Stall had consumed everything. Setup and Support chipped away at Sweep, Support and Stall broke through Setup, and Support was unable to fend for itself. Yet through the hardship, one faction set to challenge Big Stall's reign with methods so vile and Improof so crude that its mere existence is a declaration of mankind's contempt over the balance. And thus a valiant hero emerges...

The Rise of Big Sweep

The Counterforce (Marshadow) @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spicy Extract
- Poltergeist
- Combat Torque
- Strength Sap

Codename: The Counterforce

I have posted a Opportunist set before, but the full Pokedex truly reveals the power of these sets.

The key idea of this set is to trigger Mirror Herb and leverage Spicy Extract and Opportunist to give yourself a 2 time attack boost (up to 3 if Mirror Herb) while lowering the opponents defense 2 stages. This results in a 4 times attack boost, on par with Belly Drum or 6 times if Mirror Herb. Mirror Herb is extremely easy to trigger with the amount of stat boosting Hackmons countering all Imposter plays. No Retreat, Fillet Away and Victory Dance are easily countered, especially with Spicy Extract. Fighting/Ghost STAB provide full neutral coverage on all Pokemon (excluding Hisuian Zoruark).

 

[rightclicker]

Setup, Sweep, Support, Stall

Long ago, the four factions lived in harmony. But everything when Big Stall stall attacked. Only the Council, master of all Balanced Hackmons strategies could stop Imposter. But when the world needed them the most, they vanished.

Without the assistance of divine intervention, the remaining factions were left to fight in the wastes of a decrepit land. All the while, Big Stall laughed. Through its cold, dead, beady eyes, Big Stall looks downward from its throne of corpses upon a war-torn land with a wry, sadistic smile. All that could have opposed it were wiped from the face of the earth, all that remain are weaklings scavenging through endless wreckage. Big Stall mocks their meager attempts to usurp its birthright. Its stronger, its smarter. Its better. IT IS BETTER!

Big Stall is the everlasting God, the Creator and Destroyer of the ends of the meta. Big Stall does not faint or grow weary; Big Stall's understanding is unsearchable. Big Stall consumes without producing. Big Stall does not give milk, Big Stall does not lay eggs, Big Stall is too weak to do damage, it cannot run fast enough to contest speed. Yet Big Stall is lord of all the Hackmons. Big Stall sets them to work, Big Stall gives back to them the bare minimum that will prevent them from starving, and the rest it keeps for itself.

Infighting among factions grew restless. The factions looked from Imp to 'mon, and from 'mon to Imp, and from Imp to 'mon again; but already it was impossible to say which was which for Big Stall had consumed everything. Setup and Support chipped away at Sweep, Support and Stall broke through Setup, and Support was unable to fend for itself. Yet through the hardship, one faction set to challenge Big Stall's reign with methods so vile and Improof so crude that its mere existence is a declaration of mankind's contempt over the balance. And thus a valiant hero emerges...

The Rise of Big Sweep

The Counterforce (Marshadow) @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spicy Extract
- Poltergeist
- Combat Torque
- Strength Sap

Codename: The Counterforce

I have posted a Opportunist set before, but the full Pokedex truly reveals the power of these sets.

The key idea of this set is to trigger Mirror Herb and leverage Spicy Extract and Opportunist to give yourself a 2 time attack boost (up to 3 if Mirror Herb) while lowering the opponents defense 2 stages. This results in a 4 times attack boost, on par with Belly Drum or 6 times if Mirror Herb. Mirror Herb is extremely easy to trigger with the amount of stat boosting Hackmons countering all Imposter plays. No Retreat, Fillet Away and Victory Dance are easily countered, especially with Spicy Extract. Fighting/Ghost STAB provide full neutral coverage on all Pokemon (excluding Hisuian Zoruark).

Is there a reason for using Combat Torque over, say, Close Combat or Collision Course?

also no one liners so uhh here's a cool team

Basic idea is that the banders kill each other's checks. Both the FCs are improofs, Scales Poisonceus is a Scales user (no way), checks MDiancie, provides a Toxic immunity/TSpikes switchin and Knock immune.
Regen Miraidon, Moldy Kartana and CM Poisonceus could also work in this structure but eh

 

[Tea Guzzler]

first off: mortal spin is being suspected, go get reqs

secondly, the conversation on the belch stuff in discord got me to try out some offensive stuff and here's what i found:

belch is a bit ehh in terms of improofing, and it feels very much like forcing selfproofing on sets that would really prefer to be more effective otherwise. the main issue with a slower belch user (like a calm minder) is that, not only do you have to put up with basically no item for the whole game, but you aren't doing enough damage with a non-stab 120 bp poison move, and in most cases you can do basically the same thing with judgment, which both will hit imp for more in the majority of cases (stab neutral plate judge is only 24 bp off of SE belch) and has generally wider utility. on HO stuff, you're essentially forced into using moves which you 4x resist or are immune to in order for belch to actually pay off at handling imp, already strangling the good pool of users; this effectively locks you into stuff like simple hoopa-unbound, which actually wants a move to hit yveltal with (+4 modest belch ohkoes after slight chip), which both isn't consistent as a mon and also leaves you with a dead moveslot that isn't helping against stuff like espeed diancie.

this got me thinking about building ho again, which i haven't really done this gen mostly due to the difficulties with actually doing enough damage to break past stuff. this is what i managed to come up with:



dual screens has always been a bit odd. it was useful last gen as you could do things like setting kyu-b up in front of no espeed xern and no nuzzle gigas, and there's now the risk of court change. there's also less wicked blow running around. i hadn't really tried it much so this was my attempt at screens ho, and it worked pretty well, going 28-4 without much real thinking aside from two games.


Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gigaton Hammer
- V-create
- Headlong Rush

there is no mon besides a fur coat water and an intact sap ho-oh that is walling this. +1 life orb gigaton KOes every neutral target, with v-create there to bomb mlix and imp, and headlong for mirai / not having to expend the gigaton on something like psnceus (something that can happen is that they sack say psnceus to gigaton and you're forced to v-create against the thing coming in next, leaving you open to be rev killed). using this set very much turns into a game of "how easily do you win if imp is paralyzed", to which the answer is normally "you just do".


Slowbro-Mega @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Haze
- Recover

screens teams need a dual screener and this is about the only thing (aside from dondozo, which is frailer physically) that can improof kart, so it goes here; even something like suicune can simply fail if headlong crits. not really much else to see here. one thing of note is that leading this isn't always necessarily the best option, as something like an mdiancie counterlead can put you in a rough spot where you either sack this thing for early screens or go ho-oh and hope for no rock move.


Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Dragon Ascent
- V-create
- Strength Sap

this is a pretty odd choice, since it's not really doing anything that another mon would be able to do. however, the one exception to that is why it's here; being basically forced into mbro or dozo for improofing kart means the team has a severe weakness to simple no retreat stuff, and yveltal can sap stall most power trippers / live a judgment and OHKO the ghosts with lotc wicked blow. it's also a handy switchin to imp slowbro thanks to wicked blow going through screens, meaning that you can still say chunk the incoming diancie for half.


Diancie-Mega @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- V-create
- Explosion

this just does standard diancie things. priority is always good as an anti-offense option on ho and it's capable of dishing out a lot of damage in a short amount of time if you get your predicts right, and even if you get them wrong you still have a near-guaranteed explosion ko if they don't have psnceus. boom is non-standard and could feasibly be rapid spin since this team has no removal, but being able to instantly remove arc-fairy (or at the very least put it to 33 if it saps first, so you can send kart straight out and it's still at 33 for when arc-ghost gets in) is something of value. rash for imp damage and because everyone runs +spe arc anyway so it doesn't really hit any benchmark other than other diancie espeed.


Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Glare
- Strength Sap

to me this has seemed much more effective than any other magic guard set. it still loses to miraidon, sure, but no ho-oh set you make is going to change that bar volt absorb + mean look + toxic or something; what this does is bring in the physical wall (often including imp) and para it, paving the way for kart to wreak havoc down the line. para + sd is also devious as you have a solid chance of just boosting up and 2hkoing the sap spamming fc arc off of a full para, and since you're not being attacked, you have to be basically at +5 or +6 for imp to actually threaten to ohko you (whereas with as low as +2 you're hitting potential 2hko range on fc arc). flare blitz is used over brave bird for improofing and so you don't just get farmed by mega steelix.


Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- No Retreat
- Judgment
- Low Kick
- Jungle Healing

this does basically what it says on the tin. takes advantage of diancie potentially exploding, enjoys spooky plate imp being a generally poor matchup into the rest of the team, and decent switch-in to annoying stuff like regenvest pogre thanks to jungle. the fighting move isn't really hitting anything super effective nowadays so low kick's sort of the best one for PP and consistency; haven't tried this but it could also feasibly be gunk shot to almost ohko mega audino and fairyceus, both of which don't fear either standard attack.

verdict on dual screens? it's alright. i don't think it's excellent, as there's an unfortunate dependency on double switches and poor breaker matchups can cost you sacks you can't really afford or stop, but when it works it works.