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rest + sleep talk is generally very outclassed by recover/sap w/ optional take heart if you really don't like status. it just takes up way too many moveslots, being asleep also just totally sucks and sleep talk will never call the things you want reliably enough to be worth it. there's a very vague idea of forcing imposter to fall asleep if they want to heal, but sleep is mutually exclusive with other statuses you'd want to inflict on imposter.
so "normal" mons will probably not get much use out of this. what about gimmicks? there have been some over the years:
- sleep talk + psycho shift is no longer in the game
- z-sleep talk is no longer in the game (free this in gen7 btw its awesome)
so what we're left with is rest + sleep talk + circle throw + whirlwind/dragon tail on something fast like zamazenta. what this does is it rests, gets 2 opportunities to maybe force the opponent to take hazards, then after that it has to rest again. suffice it to say that if you manage to get into a position where this actually does something, it follows that the opposing team is so incredibly disadvantaged that pretty much anything threatening would get the job done.
i don't even think rest is necessarily that bad if you run it with natural cure or even on its own as e.g. a jungle healing alternative on vdance sweepers, but sleep talk is truly almost never worth it.
of course i'll truly never be happy until council complex bans comatose + sleep talk + phazing and lets us use choiced comatose breakers with sleep talk 4th move. the people have spoken and they want GAMBLING
Yeah I can definitely see this, even though I don't love the idea of needing to proof your team over one pokemon. My question is with these pokemon what would be good sets? I'd appreciate the help from you or anyone else to give me new sets (or maybe new pokemon suggestions to synergise better)
I def agree with your comments and appreciate the help. Especially thanks for that last bit, when I was building the Arceus I was playing around with pixilate and forgot to change the item. Dialga Origin I intentionally run orb for knock off proof and to have a safe switch for knock off users. But what item would you suggest?
I use this shuckle on some teams to stop physical attackers from going haywire but it can't do anything to a ghost type and it gets hard stopped if I cant set up (which take 2 turns, maybe 3 for speed swap) and a mon uses a steel move on me. I come to you all wondering if you know either a good mon that I can switch into or some other way to stop the weaknesses. Also this is a valid way to stop normalize because they want to be fast so they can use entrainment before you attack and people don't know what is up with shuckle.
I use this shuckle on some teams to stop physical attackers from going haywire but it can't do anything to a ghost type and it gets hard stopped if I cant set up (which take 2 turns, maybe 3 for speed swap) and a mon uses a steel move on me. I come to you all wondering if you know either a good mon that I can switch into or some other way to stop the weaknesses. Also this is a valid way to stop normalize because they want to be fast so they can use entrainment before you attack and people don't know what is up with shuckle.
Ok, so the reason this isn't working is twofold. One, Body Press is a shit move. Two, Shuckle is not good. I would recommend using a different FC that has actual bulk, and swapping from Body Press+Cotton Guard to a better moveset.
I use this shuckle on some teams to stop physical attackers from going haywire but it can't do anything to a ghost type and it gets hard stopped if I cant set up (which take 2 turns, maybe 3 for speed swap) and a mon uses a steel move on me. I come to you all wondering if you know either a good mon that I can switch into or some other way to stop the weaknesses. Also this is a valid way to stop normalize because they want to be fast so they can use entrainment before you attack and people don't know what is up with shuckle.
From my expeirments on the ladder, Shuckle surprisingly was pretty solid because it shut down Strength Sap and Pain Split as recovery options and undersped regen-vest users. The later of which meant the opponents breakers had to take the status move Shuckle was inflicting if they wanted to enter the field . However, I don't think Cotton Press sets are optimal. For one Fur Coat doesn't actually boost Body Press damage and secondly Ghost types blank your main damaging option. Also your set has a pretty severe vunerability to status as an opponent can just Mortal Spin you and pp stall your recovery. Shuckle also isn't a reliable Fur Coat user to begin with as it has weaknesses to Surging Strikes, Gigaton Hammer, and Sunsteel Strike, all of which you will find on physical threats on the ladder. However, once you replace Shuckle with something more reliable as your physical wall, I do recommend you try this set:
This set has a lot of chip damage, recovery denial, and momentum denial. Choiced Breakers, especially, aren't having a good time due to Burning Bulwark and Shuckles' low speed. This set is genuinely so annoying for a lot of builds. Also, Ghost types and status won't save your opponents like with the Body Press. S/O to Halward for making this set by the way. Quite a fun set to use and surprisingly effective.
Also, since I'm on the topic of Shuckle and mons, I'll be submitting this team as a sample: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...types-only-no-imposter.3772142/#post-10729971. Too long have the samples been disrespectful towards the skill of the users, I say we add at least one that is a true test of skill to use. We need to build some character within our playerbase and not foster a playerbase that thinks all bh boils down to is clicking V-Create 6 times on the most generic balance imaginable.
I'll also submitt this team as well to offer a solid HO team to the mix of teams: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ons-gen-9-bh-rank-1-ghost-types-only.3762697/. I don't know why this wasn't added earlier it got rank 1 on ladder (Not easy by the way for something as volatile as H.O. I've seen a total of two other H.O. teams do this across the entire gen) and defeated teams even with mutiple dark types, normal types, and fast ghost types like here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...49854880-v2osmwkd061vuisuuns3wxalw4llt6spw?p2. Also, Cirno H.O. also got accepted despite having a dodgy track record and rarely breaching 1400 on the ladder. Why Cirno was actually accepted despite having objectively worse performance than this beyond me? Had I been around to seriously use this in tours I think it unirionically would've just steamrolled a lot of the teams used there. Very few teams were actually prepared for the offensive onslaught, especially since counters like Ice Scales Ho-Oh and Dark Types are declining in usage. Also, this team obliterates Bomb Squad, and drops many Storm Eagle, Akira, and City teams on the spot. Essentially, only QT teams reliably beat this, but that is a small price to pay for the good match-ups it gets into most other approaches to teambuilding. Also, another bonus replay shattering an Eagle Sun team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2348366016-c005mt6qdsb0rosc8yjdcs3cw388s18pw.
- cool as fuck mon that clicks boomburst into everything and either kills them instantly or simply dies and does nothing. you can prob remove sap for like vc or smth but i wouldnt, you just wanna click boomburst and espeed anyways. this team really likes leaving like zama at 40 and random bulky guys at 35 ish so ray can clean up pretty well if you sack or pivot with regi. just dont switch this guy in with rocks up he instantly explodes
- god i fucking love this guy. i was playing a ladder game today switched in and took 30 from a +2 mhera drain punch. like its not a strong move but holy hell man he is so god damn bulky, and at the end of the day its still a really strong chomp. moveset is bog standard sg stuff, not much to write home about, altho you do need to be careful w this guy on etern. could go scales if you wanna troll chans who think theyre safe to reverse sweep you after an sg but this guy prefers switching into random phys hits and just eating them imo
- wish bulwark lets you heal all your guys while also making sure chans cant very freely wishpass since tcage traps and denergy threatens big chunks. bulwark is a bullshit broken aids cancer move as detailed in this thread already but its good to abuse it while you can. idk i dont have much to say its kinda just a levi etern with a pinch of chili powder
- you dont care about this guy
- bounce steely is awesome. he does like 50 to neutral arcs at +2 and denies sap while being hella bulky himself, as well as obviously selfproofing. i think we should legalize liquid ooze but only for me and not for my opponents
- this team has 3 life orbs lmao
my team has no weaknesses, except for the part where it has no cloak, loses to a half decent chomp, and has like 2 outs on steela. other than that it is completely flawless
- god i fucking love this guy. i was playing a ladder game today switched in and took 30 from a +2 mhera drain punch. like its not a strong move but holy hell man he is so god damn bulky, and at the end of the day its still a really strong chomp. moveset is bog standard sg stuff, not much to write home about, altho you do need to be careful w this guy on etern. could go scales if you wanna troll chans who think theyre safe to reverse sweep you after an sg but this guy prefers switching into random phys hits and just eating them imo
Love this team and set, but for this guy, what's the plan against Imposter? If it comes in at +1, does it not win on the spot if Glaive Rush snipes both of your other dragons while Headlong Rush snipes both your steels along with Flutter Mane? Or is the idea to send in Etern and hope for a burn? Asking because I want to take the team for a spin.
Love this team and set, but for this guy, what's the plan against Imposter? If it comes in at +1, does it not win on the spot if Glaive Rush snipes both of your other dragons while Headlong Rush snipes both your steels along with Flutter Mane? Or is the idea to send in Etern and hope for a burn? Asking because I want to take the team for a spin.
basically you fraud. for the actual answer you have a decent shot at pivoting around it with etern + flutter, and if youre careful about when it sets up, you can sometimes revenge with ray. honestly its pretty shaky since this team is mostly just for fun but you can def outplay imp here, esp with bulwark
While I have already submitted the mono ghost team in earnest (genuinely one of the most consistent H.O.'s in gen 9 and easily got to rank one with few to no losses and very fun to use) and the mono-rock as a meme submission, there's one more submission I'd like to add: Assault Vest Dialga Offense. Here is the pokepaste if you want to import and use for yourself: https://pokepast.es/3d32c9dd01ef0584. I'm not going to waste my time with a full RMT as this took 10 minutes to build and wasn't anything particularly challenging, enlightening, or surprising. And what I mean by that is offense has been a viable strategy for a long time, even as certain people in the community choose to deny its existence and viability. Who knew that the strategy Cityscapes has been successfully using in tours and consistently topping the ladder with is actually viable, crazy indeed. And, no, it also isn't something crazy or esoteric that only Cityscapes or Akira can use consistently. It took me a whole 10 minutes to make a viable offense team and top the ladder with it, and I haven't even built a team that wasn't for some cruel and unusual laddering challenge in ages.
Team Synopsis:
Basically, a hybrid between a tank and a mixed attacker. Its bulk means it can come in on a lot of Pokémon, especially special attackers and just start clicking buttons. The great thing about this is that in most cases, your opponent's attempts at a switch in straight up will lose to Dialga. Registeel and Celesteela are straight-up KOed by Gigaton Hammer into V-Create, Ting-Lu takes 85% upon switching in and taking a Gigaton into a Clanging Scales, Kyogre doesn't fare much better, and Chansey just gets paralyzed by Nuzzle. Sure, an opponent can try bringing in their Fur Coat / Take Heart Arceus, but they can easily have half their health removed by Clanging Scales.
Basically just stops Take Heart abusers from running rampant with a strong Thunder-Cage and leftover recovery. It also occasionally functions as a late-game wincon once physical attackers and set-up control on the opponent's end is removed, and Imposter-Proofs Dialga if it gets too weakened by stray hits.
A temporary physical tank to check physical attackers. It uses no recovery, so an Imposter's best case interaction with it is that it gets paralyzed and loses HP from Steam Eruption. Also sets Sticky Web for the team's physical breakers, so the rest of the team is much harder to offensively check.
The team's main Strength Sap blocker and hazard control. Also puts on a lot of offensive pressure and is difficult to interact with defensively, thanks to a high attack stat and Good as Gold / Covert Cloak.
Just the standard Tough Claws Shift Gear set. Consistently does massive damage to Fur Coat walls even without setup due to high attack and massive BP on its moves.
Since the team only has Glare / Nuzzle for set-up control, Blaziken serves as a contingency plan with Destiny Bond and Copy-Cat. Other then that, it can put massive offensive pressure with Swords Dance and V-Create. Imposter-Proofed by trading itself with Imposter and by Arceus Water.
How to play the team:
Before you lead, look carefully at an opponent's team. If you expect an Imposter or physical breaker lead, then Arcueus Water is the correct option. If you expect a regen-vest lead bring in Chomp. Lastly, if you expect a special attacker to lead, go into Dialga. With this team, you don't want to switch around and play passively. Be sure every play keeps the opponent on the back foot and low on HP. Once you've weakened and sap-blocked physical walls, go for the win with one of the team's physical sweepers as soon as possible.
Proof of Peak:
My alt is Mr. Natas 666, and as can be observed, I got to rank 2 with ease. I could've easily gone for 1700 or even 1800 with this team, as it was overall incredibly consistent; however, because of my elo, I was spending more time in the queue than actually playing, so I think I'll stop here for now.
Note: While this was the alt I used for the mono-rock challenge, I didn't start at 1582 elo, but below 1400 for this team at a terrible gxe. This was because I was testing ideas for the challenge of reaching rank 34 on the ladder with an r34 theme team. As one can imagine, it did not go well.
Another Miscellaneous note and hot take on sample selection: Easy to use should not be used as a criterion for sample selection, it is basically just codeword for familiar/ in the style of the council members, and so even teams with good performance get discarded in favor of teams that are more familiar to the council but overall worse in quality and performance. Also, enjoyable to use should also be a criterion. Just look at the blunder video, nobody wants to play those awful regen-cycles (especially newer players).
(Note: I've replaced the players' names with colors in order to present the study more impersonally. This will be a practice in my studies going forward.)
Short summary: After Turquoise Team snagged an early kill with Ultra Necrozma + Doom Desire, Scarlet Team baited in and removed Imposter with a surprising Spirit Shackle Mega Steelix. Since then, Turquoise Team has tried to find inroads with Ultra, but thus far the lack of slow pivots and sapblockers have made progress difficult. Will Scarlet Team be able to keep the game closed enough for Blaziken + Stealth Rock to rack up kills, or does Turquoise Team have a way through?
Elements written in italics have been confirmed in a practical sense by deduction from calcs, but haven't been explicitly confirmed by the game. If there are multiple possible explanations, they go in the Additional Information tab. Turquoise Team
(in, -1 atk)
(Fire)
100%
68%
99%
91%
KO'd
100%
Leftovers
Air Balloon (gone)
Eviolite
Regenerator
Fur Coat
Imposter
Doom Desire (6)
U-turn (30)
Stone Axe (23)
V-create (7)
Draco Meteor (7)
Strength Sap (14)
Parting Shot (30)
Magical Torque (15)
Additional information:
- Necrozma-Ultra has no physical-boosting item, ability, or nature, judging by its V-create doing 91% to an opposing Flutter Mane (the roll from itemless Naive is 85-100). Draco Meteor doing 53% to Steelix rules out possibilities such as Choice Band Tough Claws Ultra vs. Fur Coat Flutter and points to abilities such as Dragon's Maw and Tinted Lens.
- Dialga-O is almost absolutely confirmed Assault Vest, and completely is if we assume the Sceptile is Life Orb Magic Guard. It's also max attack investment.
- Zacian is Jolly. Blaziken V-create couldn't have done 92% otherwise.
Scarlet Team (Stealth Rock)
(in)
82%
100%
KO'd
100%
100%
100%
Choice Band
Leftovers
Regenerator
Desolate Land
Levitate
Fur Coat
Salt Cure (23)
Stone Axe (23)
Flip Turn (31)
Gigaton Hammer (7)
Volt Switch (31)
V-create (7)
Close Combat
Glacial Lance
Bolt Strike
Additional information:
- Blaziken is Adamant.
- Clodsire and Swampert have no Heavy-Duty Boots or Leftovers.
- Assuming Dialga-O is Assault Vest, Sceptile is almost definitely Life Orb.
Questions
Sit with the position for a while! Answer these! Post them in the thread before even seeing the rest of the post!
First, fill out all unknown information as best you can. Use your metagame knowledge, not just in the sense of "what's standard" (like, say, LO MG Sceptile being its most common set) but also "what makes sense here" (how the team is imposter-proofed, how it deals with threats like Take Heart Arceus, etc). Be honest about your confidence levels! If you aren't sure about a set, at least be sure of your lack of confidence.
Given this information, what should the plans for both players be? How should Turquoise Team try to break out of the slow-pivot vortex, and how should Scarlet Team act to prevent this? Which team has the better position, and by how much?
Let's look at a more forcing variation. Suppose on the next turn, Ultra Necrozma switches in on a successful Stone Axe from Clodsire. Exactly how bad is this for Scarlet Team? Which defensive resources do they have, and how badly do they need to save these resources for later? Suppose Scarlet Team is able to perfectly predict Ultra's moves until it next switches out. How should Turquoise Team proceed with Ultra, and how much progress will they be able to make?
Starting with Turquoise Team, the first thing I notice is the hazard matchup. There's only one rock resist and no revealed boots, so Stone Axe can be a huge pain for very low cost. On top of that, is there any hazard-removal option in case you match into something like Spikes? Rapid Spin Dialga-O looks somewhat stable on paper until you realize just how badly it gets owned by Imposter. The potential to exploit Imposter with something like Whirlwind Flutter as a spinblocker is limited, because even in the best case they're trading rocks and clicking Doom Desire to waste your time, though Spikes Flutter could maybe be justified here.
So my verdict is that the Fireceus is definitely hazard-immune, either Boots Desolate Land (probably Growth) with Well-Baked Flutter imposter-proof, or MG Plate self-proof, highly likely with that same WBB Flutter. There's a wealth of evidence to support both possibilities: Desolate Land would be elegantly imposter-proofed (assuming Flutter to be WBB makes sense because Balloon is hard to understand otherwise) and gives the team immediate power against threats like Steelceus, who are immensely threatening otherwise. MG would have a better time against Imposter, who can seemingly readily regenerate against Dialga and Zacian. It's difficult to say which, but I'm leaning towards Desolate Land.
Assuming Flutter is WBB, I think it has to be Spikes. Zacian is probably Encore last, I'd be very scared of something like NP Ghostceus with this structure otherwise, though something like Rapid Spin is very possible on a team that commits more to matchup fishing. If Arceus is Desolate Land, I think Dialga can't have Nuzzle, because Arceus would be the primary imposter-proofer with the idea to click Growth, probably try and status Imposter, and so on. Last moves that I'm looking for on Dialga are Knock, Salt Cure, maybe Revdance. I'm still kind of attached to the idea of Rapid Spin Dialga and Whirlwind Flutter with the three purposes of disallowing Doom Desire from connecting, forcing out opposing TH Arc, and shuffling with your own Doom Desire, but unfortunately I think Flutter really values getting to act first against opposing Steelceus and Ghostceus as they're among the biggest problems for the team so I'll discard the possibility.
Ultra is clearly imposter-proofed by Zacian and/or Flutter. The lack of boosting item is kind of throwing me off here, Boots feels like a solid option if we're really committing to no removal, the only other possibility I really see is Scarf. I think Scarf Ultra is fucking horrible in general but also Boots without Dragon Energy is really weird so I'm for sure suspicious here. I definitely think it's Maw with no item rather than Specs with no ability, the fairy imposter-proofs really support the idea that you want to be clicking Glaive Rush as third move.
Moving on to Scarlet Team, we can immediately rule out Mortal Spin, Knock, and probably Nuzzle on Clodsire because the Blaziken is the imposter-proofer and you want to bring it in on Flip Turn. Clod is almost definitely Assault Vest because otherwise the team is simply too special-weak for how slow it is. The Sceptile imposter-proofing is super dubious so I really want to put Nuzzle on the Clod (the team hugely benefits from paralysis in general), but if that's out of the question then something like Ruination is maybe also fine. Scept looks like MG LO no setup, you really want the initial power against Miraidon and Etern.
Flutter Mane is definitely the biggest question mark here; it's clearly a very important mon even if only for its sapblocking and speed control, and the team frankly looks a bit silly with it dead. The set that springs to mind first for me is MG LO 2 atks + Topsy/Encore/Swap/etc + Split. I think you really want ghost move Flutter to pressure Ghostceus, Garde, and Steelceus on this team. Of course a more toothless utility Flutter could have been complacently added here as it so often is, but I just don't think you can afford to be any more passive with a team like this. The opponent will just start clicking Knock Off and you'll have nothing.
If I'm being honest, I want HJK no grass move Sceptile here. That's easy to imposter-proof and it eases the matchup against Registeel. Not like you're ever disadvantaged into Waterceus structures when you have that Flutter.
Swampert is probably Covert Cloak cause I don't know what else it's carrying. I'm almost certain this is Mortal alongside something like Salt Cure or ground move (imposter-proofed by Steelix). The only other possibility I see is like, Shackle + Knock where Clod is Mortal after all and you simply call out the Flip Turn, but this feels way too dubious on multiple levels. No removal is interesting if it is 2 MG, but without boots on Pert I don't think it makes any sense at all.
Anyway, let's go to the details of the position itself. My honest opinion is that Turquoise Team likely has a significantly better position, based purely on the fact that sooner or later, a likely hazard-immune Fireceus will arrive with devastating consequences. If it's the Desolate Land Growth set, Swampert will have to trade itself off to land Mortal Spin or a Ground move, after which the position is near-untenable against both Fireceus and Ultra while Scarlet Team's own Blaziken and Sceptile don't leave as much of an impact. If the Fireceus is instead Magic Guard Torch Song, then things are even worse and there's essentially no counterplay at all.
This doesn't at all mean that Scarlet Team has nothing to play for. Fireceus, the defining mon of the position, hasn't even entered play once, so it's far too early to write off the game just yet. The rest of Turquoise Team has proven itself to be unwieldy at getting through, with even Ultra getting stonewalled by the three Ground-types thus far.
Turquoise Team should simply sit back and relax, knowing the win will come sooner or later, if they have standard MG Fireceus. There are few unknowns left on Scarlet Team, so the chances of real counterplay are low. However, Turquoise Team shouldn't get into the habit of scouting extremely carefully for whatever unfriendly moves might be left in the position, as momentum is a scarce resource for them and if they allow too much opposing progress then something like a Dragon Energy crit from Sceptile might completely turn the tables.
If Ultra is Scarf, it should be coming in on Clod, hoping to bait Sceptile or trick away the scarf (if it's scarf no trick then what the fuck are you even doing lol). Assuming Fireceus can get through eventually, Ultra is a very expendable mon and you can clarify the advantage state by trading it off for momentum and the few bits of uncertainty left in the position such as Clod's last. Stone Axe isn't something you want to allow for free, as Blaziken will start getting kills and force in Fireceus to potentially crit-fish it, which definitely isn't something you want to deal with.
With Desolate Land Fireceus, I'd play a little more cautiously and try to get as much out of Flutter as I could. One spike will cause massive problems and force Scarlet Team to show their hand regarding hazard removal without any major concessions on the part of Turquoise Team. (Flutter's HP and status aren't important--having WBB alive for Blaziken is good, but regardless of health it probably dies if it gets hit and lives otherwise. It's also irrelevant against Sceptile.) If Clod is Mortal, you shrug, spam Split, and harass it with Dialga. If Swampert is Mortal, you happily spam Moonblast into it, after which Fireceus is straightforwardly uncontested.
The advantages for Scarlet Team lie in the shadows--a weird Fireceus set, a touch too much complacency in the face of Blaziken, a bit too much impatience in the conversion process, all can turn the game on its head. The position is worse, but right now it's defensible. Ultra hasn't clicked Trick--does it not have it? Fireceus hasn't come in--is it bad? The best thing to do is to keep the position in stasis for as long as possible, resisting every temptation to simplify. Don't trade Stone Axe for another Ultra entry. Maybe don't even bring in Blaziken at the earliest opportunity. Don't reveal any remaining moves without a very good reason. Just keep clicking Flip Turn and Volt Switch, and eventually, Stone Axe will be allowed at no cost at all.
Playing so solidly with a balance team in a position where there might be no window at all is tough, and many players aren't up to it. That is the reason why I'm writing this. The game is terrible sometimes, and you must hang on despite that. Your perseverance will be rewarded in more than a handful of cases.
Moving on. If Ultra were to enter on Stone Axe right now, Glaive is a roll from this range on Relaxed Clodsire, and a guaranteed kill on Sassy. If Clodsire dies, then there's clearly nothing left to play for, while if Steelix gets V-created, then Swampert or Clodsire will switch in and the momentum might pass back into Scarlet Team's hands (very likely if Ultra is in fact Scarf). What about Trick? Taking Steelix's Leftovers would be very beneficial for Ultra, but taking Clodsire's Assault Vest would be not so good. Since rocks are already up on Turquoise Team's side, Clodsire can continue to Flip Turn on absolutely everything except for a potential Desolate Land Fireceus, but Ultra is stuck not beating Sceptile anymore.
Against perfect predictions, I think the best Ultra can do here is just Glaive, forcing minor damage on an immobile switchin. However, Trick specifically alongside either a hazard remover or Desolate Land Fireceus should be very strong.
Perfect Information
I reached out to the creators of both teams and got their permission to post them here.
Turquoise Team
(in, -1 atk)
(Fire)
100%
68%
99%
91%
KO'd
100%
Assault Vest
Draco Plate
Leftovers
Air Balloon (gone)
Eviolite
Shuca Berry
Regenerator
Dragon's Maw
Fur Coat
Well-Baked Body
Imposter
Magic Guard
Brave
Hasty
Jolly
Timid
Sassy
Timid (full atk)
Doom Desire (6)
U-turn (30)
Stone Axe (23)
Dragon Tail
Volt Switch (31)
Strength Sap (15)
Precipice Blades
Mortal Spin
Questions
With this information revealed, who has the better position and why?
If this position was played with open team sheets, how should each player proceed?
Notably, Scarlet Team has no Arceus. Let's take the same position, except with Steelix replaced by Fist Plate Levitate NP/Tachyon/Judgment/Recover Timid Arceus-Steel. Would this make things better or worse for Scarlet Team, and by how much?
From this position, if Turquoise Team was given the option to substitute Parting Shot on Zacian out for any other (legal) move, what should they choose? How much would it help, and why?
Of course, the biggest revelation here is the extremely unorthodox Shuca Fireceus from Turquoise Team, which is still a very strong threat but is nowhere near as dominating as a Strength Sap variant would've been. Clodsire + Swampert will be able to keep it in check for some time, though if both get knocked then things are up in the air once again. Blaziken from Scarlet Team has a much greater chance of getting through. There are three situational switchins in the forms of Flutter, Zacian, and Arceus-Fire. Of these three, Flutter blanks V-Create but drops to the unresisted and potentially paralytic Bolt Strike and more importantly poses no threat whatsoever to Clodsire + Sceptile, Zacian drops with Rocks up, and Fireceus gets 2HKO'd by both stabs but can threaten Knock Off, after which Zacian functions as a reasonable answer. Overall, I would say that Blaziken has an extremely realistic path forward. Sceptile, on the other hand, is probably never getting through that Dialga; despite the silly Brave nature, Dragon Energy does 47.2% max and nobody can threaten Knock Off.
Let's look at Ultra. Dragon Fang here is pretty interesting and something I should have considered more (I assumed Steelix was +Def, in which case itemless Draco could have feasibly gotten that roll on it). Without a doubt, Ultra will be hugely threatening whenever it gets in, but Scarlet Team will be able to stave off its impact with the power of prediction. Clodsire, Ultra's only real entry point, is vulnerable only to a Glaive kill at high HP. Meanwhile, Swampert and in particular Steelix can sponge Glaive with no effort. Draco Meteor and V-create are strong, but require prediction to use and come with annoying stat drops. The Draco Special Attack drop is particularly annoying, seeing that there are multiple answers so Scarlet Team will have one healthy physdef even if the other gets wounded. This isn't to say that Ultra is never breaking through; any crits, prediction sequences, or external chip on the critical walls will spell disaster for Scarlet Team.
If I were to objectively evaluate this position, I would say that it's pretty balanced, but I would give a bit of an edge to Scarlet Team. The reason for this, I think, boils down to Swampert winning against Fireceus and having Clodsire around to readily get it in. Swampert and Fireceus are definitely the two most important pieces of the position, each serving crucial offensive and defensive roles and chipping things down for the breakers bit by bit. The fact of the matter is that Swampert will be the one easily getting in, likely landing an early Mortal on Zacian and keeping hazards off in general. If Dialga takes a Blades then Sceptile starts being threatening, but this might be a worthy tradeoff in order to land a Doom Desire, an important way to force Scarlet Team back to a wall and in the process allow Ultra entry.
That said, the position is still balanced in some ways, and Turquoise Team has some things to play for still. Ultra + Flutter is the most straightforward way to break up the triple-ground blob; if Swampert takes a Draco then the position immediately takes a huge swing, so you might consider V-creating at the Clodsire to try and catch Steelix. Finding this opportunity might be difficult, but once you grab it then things start going your way.
It's also possible for Turquoise Team to play to land a Mortal on Swampert early after removing the Covert Cloak. This is very risky as Fireceus's HP is very important, but if done correctly it could also have a huge payoff. This line might just be outclassed by ideas of aggressively getting Ultra in, though.
Critical calcs:
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fire: 306-360 (68.9 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Clodsire Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fire: 66-78 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Arceus-Fire Torch Song vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Swampert-Mega: 46-54 (11.3 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Dragon Fang Dragon's Maw Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Swampert-Mega: 340-402 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Scarlet Team, the gameplan is a lot easier: spam Flip Turn with Clodsire and make waves with Swampert and Blaziken. Even Zacian is an entry point for Swampert, who can happily threaten -1 Precipice Blades on Dialga or just click Volt Switch. The only thinking you really have to do is in limiting Ultra's entries.
So something I want to mention here, it's very easy to look at the situation and think that things are much worse for Turquoise Team than they actually are. It's true that the tide is flowing against them, meaning that if both sides pursue exclusively "autopilot" moves then Scarlet Team will win. However, the price for swimming against that tide isn't as high as it sounds, and Turquoise Team's many resources mean that they'll get several windows to throw everything they have at Swampert, knowing that as soon as it dies, nothing is standing in the way of Fireceus.
Note also that in the actual game (without full info), Turquoise Team's position is somewhat better than it is in our exercise, because Scarlet Team might commit to terrible mistakes on the assumption that Fireceus beats Swampert. I might have been way off on the imperfect information bit, but at least I recommended not hard-committing to anything.
Anyway, Steelceus>Steelix. Honestly, I think this would make things a little worse for Scarlet Team. Steelix's main role in this position is serving as a stopgap to Ultra, and Steelceus takes more from V-create. Steelceus also gets countered by Fireceus, with Torch Song 2HKOing and +2 Judgment not doing the same. It certainly isn't the worst thing in the world though, because if Fireceus was to meet with some unfortunate fate at the hands of Blaziken, Steelceus would be the first to hear about it. The rest of Turquoise Team just can't do much to it. Topsy Flutter looks annoying on paper but is completely insubstantial in practice.
The first alternate move on Zacian that came to mind for me was just Teleport, which completely negates the advantage conferred by slow pivoting with Clodsire. Aside from that, there's Knock Off, which could punish Scarlet Team for getting greedy with Swampert, though Clodsire and Steelix can just pivot back and forth on it. An option that might sound surprising is Glare, with the idea that since Ultra takes very little from Flip Turn and Sceptile isn't too bad to let in (Volt Switch is mildly scary, but you can midground Zacian in order to not let in Blaziken), you can try just going hard Ultra in front of paralyzed Clod. One last idea is Spikes, trying to force chip on Swampert one way or another.
None of these alternate moves are perfect, but each has a pretty sizable impact on the position, and I would argue that Scarlet Team's advantage becomes very tenuous with them in the picture.
Closing Thoughts
The game from which this position was taken had a pretty silly ending. Taka, controlling Turquoise Team, successfully found opportunities for Ultra and completely turned around the position, but the fun was cut short by a Bolt Strike paralysis on Fireceus and a Draco Meteor miss on Steelix. Wheaty, playing as Scarlet Team, ultimately held on long enough with his bizarre triple-ground core to take home the victory.
Of course, I didn't know any of this while doing the first part of the study, so it was all quite a shock to discover after writing several paragraphs about how bad the position was for Scarlet Team. Sometimes conventional knowledge can get in the way more than it helps! I swear I didn't cherry-pick this specific moment for this purpose, it just spontaneously formed before me.
Hopefully, you sat with the position for some time too and came up with your own independent thoughts. Truth be told, I didn't choose this position because there was anything special about it, I did it completely arbitrarily. You could do something similar for any tournament or even ladder game and get something interesting out of it, assuming there isn't an overwhelming advantage to either side.
A position is nothing on its own. We, in surrounding it with our interpretations, are the only thing that give it meaning. Even competitiveness (in the sense of trying to kill all opposing mons) itself is just another lens. There are countless numbers of games to be played: how many times can Turquoise Team switch in Fireceus if that's all they're trying to do, but Scarlet Team is trying to prevent them from doing so? If both players are cooperating, how many times can a hit deal exactly 200 damage? How many ways are there to convert this position down to a prediction-based 50/50 endgame? We could go for hours and hours and hours.
My purpose in making this post wasn't just to create the study, but to establish the practice of studies in general. I'd really like to see others work on similar things and add their own spin on it. The reason I added hypotheticals, like the question about Zacian having a different move, was to establish the position as a very malleable, dynamic environment and less of a hard, unchanging object. Obviously movesets typically can't change in-battle, but I think questions like these are important for the teambuilding process.
A pretty major shortcoming of this study is the fact that it doesn't touch on intentionality very much. We can learn a lot about sets by simply observing how our opponent is playing, even if they're a cold machine that always makes the objectively best move. I tried to touch on this a bit by pointing out things like how strange it was that Fireceus had never once come in, or the (incorrect) read that Ultra was Scarf because it kept clicking one move and then switching out. However, there's only so much you can say about intentionality when your focus is on a fixed position rather than on the context that got you there. Unfortunately, I think I still have a ways to go before I can examine a full game with comparable depth to this study, but if anyone else would like to try then I wholeheartedly welcome that.
I certainly might do more studies in the future, depending on my level of commitment. If you want to see them, use cool teams and play high-level games where both sides think for 10 minutes per turn. I demand sacrifice in the form of weird games.
(in, -1 atk)
(Fire)
(in)
