Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Here are some problems I have with some currently proposed ideas:

No ban - Just read Halcyon. 's post, he words it better than I could

Complex bans + Limits to # of Baton Passers - Do y'all even realize how ridiculous that sounds? You're going to be able to use Scolipede with Baton Pass, but only if there's less than 2 other Baton Passers. Oh, and I'll be the one to code it because programming's easy!

No. Keep it simple, yet effective. This is too conservative, even for me.

Limiting the # of Baton Passers - This would simply kill the playing style rather than nerf it. Baton Pass is a problem because it is impossible to counter outside a few niche pokemon. If we banned even just one of the pokemon on BP teams that make it impossible, BP should be more than manageable for a skilled player using a balanced team.

Magic Bounce + Baton Pass - First of all, the only realistic Magic Bouncer on BP teams is Espeon, so just ban Espeon + Baton Pass. Second, even taking into account the weird nature of Baton Pass, I still think the better move is to just ban Espeon. Smogon doesn't use complex bans just because there's other viable sets of that pokemon. We never have and I don't see why we would start now.

Also, can people stop suggesting counters? Anybody who's done the research should know some decent ways to deal with Baton Pass. The problem is that those ways don't fit onto balanced teams and Baton Pass isn't common enough to go to the trouble.

 

[Rosen]

A good counter to the issue i belive and definetly a good start of ideas

i also think that a good way to mess up a baton pass set is with moves that take down stats so that they will constantly be contesting with the fact that their stats are going down a few moves i can think of is charm and pangoros signature move Parting shot that can work well 2 ways

breif explanation: parting shot is a move that takes down enemy attak and special attack by 1 stage and then allows the user to switch out

their are 2 things that can happen here

1. the enemys stats are lowered and you can switch out to a counter (such as the gardevoir or musharna ideas)

2. IF the enemy has magic bounce your stats will go down but the enemy that you used it on will be the one switching out allowing you to get a little more time

all in all parting shot is nice and although if the enemy has magic bounce like i said it kind of works like a bad version of roar but it STILL WORKS!!!!

im sure their are holes like swiss cheese in this idea but please let me know what you think

I briefly thought of Parting Shot too, but couldn't figure out a good set. Does it still work if the target is behind a Substitute?

 

[Halcyon.]

Here are some problems I have with some currently proposed ideas:

No ban - Just read Halcyon. 's post, he words it better than I could

Complex bans + Limits to # of Baton Passers - Do y'all even realize how ridiculous that sounds? You're going to be able to use Scolipede with Baton Pass, but only if there's less than 2 other Baton Passers. Oh, and I'll be the one to code it because programming's easy!

No. Keep it simple, yet effective. This is too conservative, even for me.

Limiting the # of Baton Passers - This would simply kill the playing style rather than nerf it. Baton Pass is a problem because it is impossible to counter outside a few niche pokemon. If we banned even just one of the pokemon on BP teams that make it impossible, BP should be more than manageable for a skilled player using a balanced team.

Magic Bounce + Baton Pass - First of all, the only realistic Magic Bouncer on BP teams is Espeon, so just ban Espeon + Baton Pass. Second, even taking into account the weird nature of Baton Pass, I still think the better move is to just ban Espeon. Smogon doesn't use complex bans just because there's other viable sets of that pokemon. We never have and I don't see why we would start now.

Also, can people stop suggesting counters? Anybody who's done the research should know some decent ways to deal with Baton Pass. The problem is that those ways don't fit onto balanced teams and Baton Pass isn't common enough to go to the trouble.

I'm definitely pro-ban, how do I sound like I'm not ?_?

The best choice is easily limiting BP to 1 or 2 Pokemon per team. I don't honestly care if this "playstyle" gets shafted because of it, because I don't see it as legitimate anyway. Magic Bouce + Baton Pass would ruin what little viability Espeon has left.

 

[Petrico94]

But Halcyon., the issue there is that the number of BP users allowed would be controversial. If only two members are allowed, people would argue, "why not 3?" and if 3 were allowed, "why not 4?" and so on. what number of users would be balanced?

also, with only 2 members of BP allowed on any one team, the Baton Pass playstyle gets murdered and ceases to exist. is that really the best solution?

Maybe we could start from 5 and see when it stops being annoying.

 

[VictoryHD]

I briefly thought of Parting Shot too, but couldn't figure out a good set. Does it still work if the target is behind a Substitute?

OK everyone it turns out parting shot does work through substitute i just ran a test and that means it could work as a counter to BP!!

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I'm definitely pro-ban, how do I sound like I'm not ?_?

The best choice is easily limiting BP to 1 or 2 Pokemon per team. I don't honestly care if this "playstyle" gets shafted because of it, because I don't see it as legitimate anyway. Magic Bouce + Baton Pass would ruin what little viability Espeon has left.

Sorry, I think I worded that poorly, I was referring to you to share my problems with Anti-ban arguments

 

[Petrico94]

OK everyone it turns out parting shot does work through substitute i just ran a test and that means it could work as a counter to BP!!

Checked Serbii, Parting shot is only known by Pangoro and bitchSmeargle so until more people get it it's not a very viable counter.

 

[VictoryHD]

considering the way paarting shot works im pretty sure their is no way to ban BP and pangoro is also a solid mon so not only is he able to deal with BP but he is also able to crush stuff with is HUGE attack power

Checked Serbii, Parting shot is only known by Pangoro and bitchSmeargle so until more people get it it's not a very viable counter.

i dont know it may be slightly risky right now being as not many people use pangoro but this has very good potential and i belive we should at least consider it and build upon the idea to better it and design a good check

 

[ohgeedubs]

But Halcyon., the issue there is that the number of BP users allowed would be controversial. If only two members are allowed, people would argue, "why not 3?" and if 3 were allowed, "why not 4?" and so on. what number of users would be balanced?

also, with only 2 members of BP allowed on any one team, the Baton Pass playstyle gets murdered and ceases to exist. is that really the best solution?

The weird thing about baton pass is also that it has several uses. Having one BPer allowed would lead to some odd situations where you can't have say, a speedpassing scolipede and a pursuit escaping celebi on the same team. Two BPers allowed would lead to a lot less super situational teams that utilize baton pass on 3 members yet aren't part of a giant baton pass chain, but they're still there theoretically. I personally wouldn't have a problem with any arbitrary limit, but yea, a lot of people would probably complain. (I guess the closest parallel I can think of is that you can't use swift swim luvdisc and politoed in OU - but at least that's arguably not so much situational, as it is really bad).

Edit: had something here to reply to parting shot comment. I retract it.

 

[Tsuchigumo]

I've never felt the need to post here before, as I'm not generally someone who cares about playing for rank.

What I do care about is the ever-increasing bans on strategies that are simply "disliked" based on a highly flawed definition of "the metagame". It's distressing to hear the common explanation for what the "metagame" is in the eyes of those who control it and the results of that mindset. I'm not here to argue the system's flaws, I'm here- today- to argue it's actions.

Baton pass does not break the metagame. Excessive use of Baton Pass is annoying, however, it is not particular combinations of pokemon and move that need to be banned. If anything is done, limiting the number of Baton Passers on a team is likely the best solution and the only one that's remotely fair to emergent strategies. I'm going to answer the main questions as best I can without needless fluff or drama.

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame

Yes. Rampant use of baton pass leads to the inability to counter builds specifically built to chain BP. Because the team is allowed to be rather diverse while maintaining constant back-and-forth between members to build stats, this creates a major problem in that defeating one or two of the team members is not enough to bring down the engine, and you're stuck with an impregnable wall of boosted sweeper.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

Chaining Baton Pass repeatedly makes it, in common terms, uncompetitive. In the same way that bringing nothing but sweepers is generally a bad idea, bringing mostly Baton Passers is also bad. It is a repetitive system that, because of it's almost copy-and-paste nature, tightens the scope of viable strategy down too far. This does not mean that Baton Pass is a bannable move- more on that later.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

While this does solve the problem, it does so inelegantly and with needlessly heavy-handed action. Banning certain Pokemon with Baton Pass is a very bad solution. Removing chains makes for a much more open, viable tactic- as once you remove the chain, they become more widely counterable and it becomes a very different and much less sustainable argument. Banning certain pokemon still allow for more obscure chaining, which is at the true heart of the issue.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Absolutely not. This is a more hideously oppressive ban than banning specific pokemon. For the reasons stated above, Baton Pass is in no way game breaking, until it is allowed to multiply.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

I would support this as a fair ban, although in my own opinion, banning multiple Baton Passers in the same team is the most elegant solution. I know few support complex bans, however, this is a complex issue and the same brute-force that was used in banning Swag Play will not work here in a fair or healthy manner. Not only does banning multiple passers reduce the overall ways a BP team can counter threats, it also blocks certain combinations and weakens other offensive options that BP teams have normally. Moves such as Stored Power don't get the boosts from three pokemon, only one, and that one pokemon must be able to utilize it's boosting moves for full effect. By reducing the number of pokemon with BP in a team to one, you now have a viable tactic that does not require specific countering to beat.

 

[Over Zealous]

Smogon has banned plenty of things but now we are coming up to this where people are saying "its impossible to counter".... no no it is not imposible to counter it does requeire a little bit of skill and strategy to deal with BP but it can be done and and i will not support a ban of BP at all...However i do belive that magic bounce and BP is a lethal combo lets just remember that espeon is like a puppy espeon will talk big s%&t but once you land a good hit on her she goes down like a bag of rocks so if i missed any details please let me know but i dont think it is necessary to ban BP

Baton Pass isn't broken, and it's not impossible to counter. The counters, however, are obscure and niche based, which naturally limits teambuilding and gameplay.

GUYSGUYSGUYS I've been testing and found what I believe to be a good Baton Pass Check, but it still doesn't help much against Magic Bounce:

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Disable
- Psyshock
- Moonblast

The only reason this works is because 99% of the time, Baton Pass teams lead with Scolipede. Gardevoir traces Speed Boost, and while Gardevoir is slower than Scolipede, after it Baton Passes, the recipient of the Baton Pass has Baton Pass disabled by... well, Disable. Unless the baton pass recipient is Espeon, of course. So it isn't perfect, but it's a start.

Also, I have yet another idea, and one that I see as being generally more solid. Possible the best one I've tried:

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Imprison
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Barrier

The beauty here is that Musharna is able to bypass Magic Bounce. Imprison is not affected by Magic Bounce, and Musharna is the only pokemon capable of learning Baton Pass and Imprison. This thing right here brings Baton Pass teams to a screeching halt, and to add insult to injury, she can set up and Baton Pass herself.

Keep in mind the moveset/EVs is for the most part a placeholder, and I need to do more testing.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm still in favor of nerfing the hell out of baton pass teams. But it's a start, and both sets here deserve some recognition.

EDIT: Reading through I see Gardevoir already get mentioned. I still stand by Musharna, however.

So every team should run a special Musharna on their team? (Musharna is still no counter, and doesn't ensure any counter.)

 

[Rosen]

Baton Pass isn't broken, and it's not impossible to counter. The counters, however, are obscure and niche based, which naturally limits teambuilding and gameplay.



So every team should run a special Musharna on their team? (Musharna is still no counter, and doesn't ensure any counter.)

I'm not saying they should, as I'm still in favor of a nerf/ban. And Musharna absolutely is a counter, or at least a solid check, it's the only pokemon 100% capable (to my knowledge) of preventing any further baton passes. It can't remove the boosts, no, but it's one of the best things I've ever tried against it. If you're going to use it, do it early in the match. I'm assuming you've never tested it? Not saying that you have to, but it would be appreciated before making further comments.

 

[Petrico94]

Also, I have yet another idea, and one that I see as being generally more solid. Possible the best one I've tried:

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Imprison
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Barrier

Good try but Taunt and perish song still win for only taking 1 moveslot. Musharna isn't considered helpful even in last gen UU and all psychics are only worse with Knock off's new popularity.

 

[Rosen]

Good try but Taunt and perish song still win for only taking 1 moveslot. Musharna isn't considered helpful even in last gen UU and all psychics are only worse with Knock off's new popularity.

Knock off isn't exactly a staple on Baton Pass teams, and Taunt fails against Espeon and Perish Song fails against Mr. Mime.

 

[Clankenator007]

IMO baton pass is a shitty gimmick that occasionally catches people off guard, much like FEAR or cosmic power Sigilyph. It can net you a win every so often but anyone actually laddering for a while with a baton pass team is not going to rise above the ~1200 range. It's annoying to face but I wouldn't call it broken. It's not like swagplay where the match is decided by the rng, there's still a strategy, counterplay, and counter-counterplay much like anything else in the meta. Honestly BP is a lot like Exodia in Yu-Gi-Oh: high risk and high reward but too shitty and unreliable to really be worth paying much attention to it.

 

[Andrew]

So I know there's been a lot of discussion about potential nerfs, but I would like to reiterate that the one I think would be healthiest for all involved is to limit the amount of baton passers on a team. Stay with me here.

There has been some discussion as to what "arbitrary" number would be chosen. I propose limiting to 5 users of baton pass per team. We're performing surgery here, not murdering it.

Taking out one member of the chain would be like removing a lung or a kidney from the body; the body can still function, albeit at a slower, more careful rate. With just one member of the BP chain not having the move, it would limit mobility and effectiveness slightly. It would be up to the Baton Pass user to choose which mon to drop. Heck, they could bring a Sunkern in the last spot if they wanted to. More likely than not, it would evolve to having a secondary sweeper w/o BP who would be passed to, inflict as much damage as possible, and faint. At this point the BP player would have already prepared their win, or would begin accumulating boosts another time for their primary sweeper.

I believe this nerf would be likely to appeal to the majority of users, both pro and anti nerf, as full Baton Pass would still be playable, and no doubt would evolve to compensate. It would also help players facing baton pass to evolve and compensate for the legitimate threat of facing a Baton Pass team by realizing that their is an exploitable member. It would be up to smart play to deal with, and would possibly make matches more enjoyable and less "first turn match-up based".

With this nerf, all players would still be able to enjoy their eeveelution-pass teams, their Magic Bounce Espeons, their Speed Boost Scolipedes, and any other variation you can think of. The only thing being nerfed here would be the Full, Complete, and Optimized Baton Pass team, which would still be able to function, albeit at a slightly more manageable rate.

 

[Albacore]

IMO baton pass is a shitty gimmick that occasionally catches people off guard, much like FEAR or cosmic power Sigilyph. It can net you a win every so often but anyone actually laddering for a while with a baton pass team is not going to rise above the ~1200 range. It's annoying to face but I wouldn't call it broken. It's not like swagplay where the match is decided by the rng, there's still a strategy, counterplay, and counter-counterplay much like anything else in the meta. Honestly BP is a lot like Exodia in Yu-Gi-Oh: high risk and high reward but too shitty and unreliable to really be worth paying much attention to it.

Except the current #1 on the ladder (well, #2, but he was #1 for a while) got there using Baton Pass. If that doesn't show that BP teams aren't at the very least viable, I don't know what does.

So I know there's been a lot of discussion about potential nerfs, but I would like to reiterate that the one I think would be healthiest for all involved is to limit the amount of baton passers on a team. Stay with me here.

There has been some discussion as to what "arbitrary" number would be chosen. I propose limiting to 5 users of baton pass per team. We're performing surgery here, not murdering it.

Taking out one member of the chain would be like removing a lung or a kidney from the body; the body can still function, albeit at a slower, more careful rate. With just one member of the BP chain not having the move, it would limit mobility and effectiveness slightly. It would be up to the Baton Pass user to choose which mon to drop. Heck, they could bring a Sunkern in the last spot if they wanted to. More likely than not, it would evolve to having a secondary sweeper w/o BP who would be passed to, inflict as much damage as possible, and faint. At this point the BP player would have already prepared their win, or would begin accumulating boosts another time for their primary sweeper.

I believe this nerf would be likely to appeal to the majority of users, both pro and anti nerf, as full Baton Pass would still be playable, and no doubt would evolve to compensate. It would also help players facing baton pass to evolve and compensate for the legitimate threat of facing a Baton Pass team by realizing that their is an exploitable member. It would be up to smart play to deal with, and would possibly make matches more enjoyable and less "first turn match-up based".

With this nerf, all players would still be able to enjoy their eeveelution-pass teams, their Magic Bounce Espeons, their Speed Boost Scolipedes, and any other variation you can think of. The only thing being nerfed here would be the Full, Complete, and Optimized Baton Pass team, which would still be able to function, albeit at a slightly more manageable rate.

I honestly don't think limiting BP to 5 users would be enough. The last 2 members of a BP team are pretty much filler and there to counter one specific thing. For instance, Smeargle guards against Mold Breaker Roar, Zapdos against Flyspam, and Mr. Mime against Perish Song. Of these three things, only Flyspam is commonly seen, and BP teams can still defeat that if they play correctly. I've actually seen a lot of BP matches where the user simply sacrifices a Pokemon, generally Mr. Mime, to anything threatening, and still manages to secure an easy victory. Really, what makes BP teams work is the combo of Scoliopede, Espeon, and Sylveon, although Vaporeon is pretty important too.

 

[Rosen]

So I know there's been a lot of discussion about potential nerfs, but I would like to reiterate that the one I think would be healthiest for all involved is to limit the amount of baton passers on a team. Stay with me here.

There has been some discussion as to what "arbitrary" number would be chosen. I propose limiting to 5 users of baton pass per team. We're performing surgery here, not murdering it.

Taking out one member of the chain would be like removing a lung or a kidney from the body; the body can still function, albeit at a slower, more careful rate. With just one member of the BP chain not having the move, it would limit mobility and effectiveness slightly. It would be up to the Baton Pass user to choose which mon to drop. Heck, they could bring a Sunkern in the last spot if they wanted to. More likely than not, it would evolve to having a secondary sweeper w/o BP who would be passed to, inflict as much damage as possible, and faint. At this point the BP player would have already prepared their win, or would begin accumulating boosts another time for their primary sweeper.

I believe this nerf would be likely to appeal to the majority of users, both pro and anti nerf, as full Baton Pass would still be playable, and no doubt would evolve to compensate. It would also help players facing baton pass to evolve and compensate for the legitimate threat of facing a Baton Pass team by realizing that their is an exploitable member. It would be up to smart play to deal with, and would possibly make matches more enjoyable and less "first turn match-up based".

With this nerf, all players would still be able to enjoy their eeveelution-pass teams, their Magic Bounce Espeons, their Speed Boost Scolipedes, and any other variation you can think of. The only thing being nerfed here would be the Full, Complete, and Optimized Baton Pass team, which would still be able to function, albeit at a slightly more manageable rate.

I really think 3 is the best number. That way you could have Scolipede and Espeon, the two staples, and another of your choice.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I would support this as a fair ban, although in my own opinion, banning multiple Baton Passers in the same team is the most elegant solution. I know few support complex bans, however, this is a complex issue and the same brute-force that was used in banning Swag Play will not work here in a fair or healthy manner. Not only does banning multiple passers reduce the overall ways a BP team can counter threats, it also blocks certain combinations and weakens other offensive options that BP teams have normally. Moves such as Stored Power don't get the boosts from three pokemon, only one, and that one pokemon must be able to utilize it's boosting moves for full effect. By reducing the number of pokemon with BP in a team to one, you now have a viable tactic that does not require specific countering to beat.

If you limit the number of pokemon with BP in a team to one then full Baton Pass teams can no longer be used. We're discussing possible nerfs here, not ways to get rid of BP teams entirely.

As for the people that keep bringing up "counters" to BP teams and the people that take the bait and attempt to refute them, remember that proposing a single pokemon to hard counter an entire playstyle is rather preposterous.

Also you don't have to run specific pokemon to beat Baton Pass. While moves like Haze and Prankster Taunt are dead stops to Baton Pass, you're not required to run those or anything else in specific just like you don't have to run Gothitelle to beat Stall for example. Does it help to run Gothitelle for stall? Definitely. Do you have to run Gothitelle to beat stall? Absolutely not. While Baton Pass teams generally have better matchups agains Stall (though this definitely isn't always the case), they will struggle more against offensively oriented teams. That's just a question of matchup, just like how Gen 5 OU Sun teams had the advantage against weatherless builds the majority of the time. Sand on the other hand had a good matchup vs Sun. There's nothing broken about Baton Pass. While it is unique, in the end it's a playstyle like countless others. You can prepare for it, you will occasionally lose to it despite proper preparation, that's how it goes in the world of competitive pokemon.

Final note: the story that Baton Pass is "figured out" is nonsense. Baton Pass can pick out of Mew, Scizor, Togekiss, Zapdos, Mr. Mime, Smeargle, Vaporeon, Sylveon, Espeon, Scolipede, Durant, Gorebyss/Huntail and I'm sure I'm missing some. Pick any random playstyle and you can name at least three pokemon that are very likely to be found on those teams. UU Rain teams will very often run Kingdra, Kabutops and Tornadus-I. DeoSharp in OU is a giveaway, often coupled with Keldeo and a spinblocker like Aegislash or Gengar. Does that mean those teams are "figured out"? No. Do certain team variations inside one specific playstyle perform better than other teams in that playstyle? Yes, of course. That's a question of teambuilding, and the pro-ban side was very eager to twist this argument in their favor just because BP Teams share one thing in common on every member: Baton Pass. Doesn't mean in any way that BP teams are "figured out".

C'mon guys, you can do better than this.

 

[Over Zealous]

I'm not saying they should, as I'm still in favor of a nerf/ban. And Musharna absolutely is a counter, or at least a solid check, it's the only pokemon 100% capable (to my knowledge) of preventing any further baton passes. It can't remove the boosts, no, but it's one of the best things I've ever tried against it. If you're going to use it, do it early in the match. I'm assuming you've never tested it? Not saying that you have to, but it would be appreciated before making further comments.

- Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

- Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Musharna is not only outpaced, but it cannot switch in, nevermind defeat Espeon. Even if Musharna lives to use Imprison, Espeon is given at least 2 more turns to boost further and sweep.

The fact you're seriously suggesting a barely RU and NU viable Pokemon in the OU tier is slightly...disturbing.

 

[Tsuchigumo]

"If you limit the number of pokemon with BP in a team to one then full Baton Pass teams can no longer be used. We're discussing possible nerfs here, not ways to get rid of BP teams entirely."

And banning Baton Pass entirely is a "nerf"? Full Baton Pass should likely be banned, although my previous assessment for 1 only seems to be a bit too much. 2-3 is probably a more fair assessment. Full Baton pass is the problem.

 

[Petrico94]

Losing 1/6 baton passers for a good sweeper with the boosted stats and 4 attacks doesn't sound too bad, if a rising # ban is decided on I think 4 is a better number to start with. I'm also wondering if removing speed boost support would make it harder to keep a baton pass going when speed is an issue (or just slow it down for someone to use Agilityx2)

 

[Albacore]

Final note: the story that Baton Pass is "figured out" is nonsense. Baton Pass can pick out of Mew, Scizor, Togekiss, Zapdos, Mr. Mime, Smeargle, Vaporeon, Sylveon, Espeon, Scolipede, Durant, Gorebyss/Huntail

If someone could show me an BP team without Scoliopede, Espeon and Sylveon that would not be substantially improved with the introduction of these Pokemon, I would be inclined to believe that, but I highly doubt that's possible. What exactly do Mew, Togekiss and Huntail bring to a BP team that would help it defeat common checks? There are, at the very most, 8 viable Pokemon on BP teams, and that is a big problem. DeoSharp teams obviously cannot be compared with BP teams at all, since I'm pretty sure a large portion of Pokemon viable in OU can be used efficiently on a DeoSharp team, without being outclassed.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Also, can people stop suggesting counters? Anybody who's done the research should know some decent ways to deal with Baton Pass. The problem is that those ways don't fit onto balanced teams and Baton Pass isn't common enough to go to the trouble.

Except for every special attacker in the tier, which any offensive or balance or even semi-stall team have some of. Stuff like zard y, mega gardy and lando i.

Oh wait, you're gonna say the special attackers don't count because they don't completely shut down bp 100% of the time, right? Well too bad that's not how the game works. You people complain that bp is match up based, but it seems you want it to be match up based, because you invalidate any pokemon that doesn't beat the entire bp team before the match starts. Zard y doesn't count, before he doesn't give you free ELO against bp teams just by being on the team, he actually requires a bit of skill and prediction to win.

The problem is that smogon is only willing to accept the existance of bp as long as it is a non factor to the metagame in the first place. It's fine only if every high level team beats it by default without even having to prepare against it on teambuilding. If there is a chance that the bp player can outsmart the "high level team" using spore or good switches, then bp is perceived as overpowered. Well, too bad, but bp is a playstyle, and it's already part of the metagame, like it or not. What you are trying to do is to custom tailor the metagame to your tastes and eliminate any playstyle you don't want to see being part of it. And that has one name, as defined by the famous play to win article: scrubism. And that's the opposite of being a competitive player.

Also, for the guy who said prediction is not skill, the entire chess community would like to have a word with you. Prediction is a skill and it's part of most competitiive games. It's about knowing the metagame enough to know what players are most likely to do, and manipulating them to do what you want. Poker players do that all the time, as do chess players and any sort of competitive player.

 

[AwesomeFennekin]

"If you limit the number of pokemon with BP in a team to one then full Baton Pass teams can no longer be used. We're discussing possible nerfs here, not ways to get rid of BP teams entirely."

And banning Baton Pass entirely is a "nerf"? Full Baton Pass should likely be banned, although my previous assessment for 1 only seems to be a bit too much. 2-3 is probably a more fair assessment. Full Baton pass is the problem.

PRAISE THE LORD!