Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-111953353

Did what I could, but lost.

Points gathered:
1. Sub Landorus blocks Spore and 2HKOes the entire team (including the CM users) yet is still stopped by a first turn Sub by Scolipede. Had I attacked first turn, the second turn would have been a +1 speed pass to Focus Sash Smeargle, who would Spore->Quiver Dance->Pass, ending Landorus' effectiveness.
2. Choice-Trick can just be absorbed by Scolipede who can still come in to +1 boost.
3. I don't like dEnIsSsS.

Okay I'm kidding about the last one. He seemed okay. No but seriously, hate that guy.
 
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Has everyone forgotten how we do things?

We don't do complex bans, unless they're absolutely necessary.

We don't ban sets, abilities, or moves on a pokemon, we ban the pokemon.

We don't do complex bans just to protect pokemon's other sets.

We don't care what people think about our policies.

We (OU) don't care about what happens in ubers.

And we don't put up with uncompetitive or broken garbage.


That said, BP is a unique situation that might fall under the "absolutely necessary." If we can get passed the "is this really worth a ban?" people, we should discuss how BP warrants a complex ban (or doesn't).

What I don't want to hear is any more of the people who just repeat that "it's the whole team together" stuff. It's not that hard to experiment with BP and determine how each team member contributes to the overall set, and determine which ones have what effects.

I personally think the blame falls on scolipede with it's automatic speed and reliable defense boost. Banning Scolipede (at least on BP teams) will force BP abusers to earn free turns at the beginning of the match, leaving them even more susceptible to offensive pressure, and also, without the iron defense from the get go, they will be significantly more susceptible to physical attacks. Banning Espeon on the other hand won't solve the root problem of needing to have a specific way to deal with BP, it'll just increase the number of specific ways available.

If we choose to limit the number of BP users per team, then the answer is either 2 or 3. I'd prefer 3 because with 2, it's very difficult to reliably set up a pokemon and react to counters as they switch in, but I can understand how people feel even a core of just Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon possess too much resistance to would be BP counters.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-111953353

Did what I could, but lost.

Points gathered:
1. Sub Landorus blocks Spore and 2HKOes the entire team (including the CM users) yet is still stopped by a first turn Sub by Scolipede. Had I attacked first turn, the second turn would have been a +1 speed pass to Focus Sash Smeargle, who would Spore->Quiver Dance->Pass, ending Landorus' effectiveness.
2. Choice-Trick can just be absorbed by Scolipede who can still come in to +1 boost.
3. I don't like dEnIsSsS.

Okay I'm kidding about the last one. He seemed okay. No but seriously, hate that guy.

Baton pass teams do not neccesarily need Scolipede to be sucessful. You can be a good bp'er as long as you have a combination of Espeon with someone that can naturally boost speed or Scolipede with someone that has ingrain. The replay below shows how someone can bp and win, even without Scolipede on their team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112006639
 
Ok, I'm going to try to explore our options with the "ban X number of BP users" idea.

1/2 BP users per team: completely destroy's baton pass teams as we know them, and pretty much limits BP chains to quick fast passes to a sweeper. This option is the way we could go if we deem BP chains completely uncompetitive by nature, and just want to prevent any use of them.

3 BP users per team: BP chains become possible again, albeit very limited to pretty much Scoliopede, Espeon, and Slyveon. They become much easier to shut down with offensive teams, but stall teams pretty much still have to rely on haze Quagsire to beat the chain. However, having a Quagsire with haze matters more, as without Ingrain, a combination of scald and haze can eventually take Espeon down. A combination of earthquake and haze would work even better, but scald is still better against non-BP teams. However, with 3 team spots opened up, BP teams could run tricky stuff like choice scarf trick/taunt Gothitelle to take out Quagsire. All in all, against stall teams, the outcome of a match with BP can still be determined at team preview.

4 BP users per team: At this point BP teams can now add Smeargle or Zapdos to their roster. Both provide some insurance against Talonflame and other offensive mons that would try to stop the BP chain before it starts. In addition the BP team now has ingrain, which makes stalls life a lot harder once again.

Not going to mention 5 BP users per team, as no one's suggesting it.
 
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You seem to only want to nerf Baton Pass to a point where the community will be happy just so you can use it.
Last I checked, that was the goal of the thread.

And, anyway, we're not looking for evidence here, but rather for good arguments on whether Baton Pass needs to be nerfed and, if so, in which way.

Just sayin.

Still wanna know why you can't just ban Speed Boost + Magic Bounce on the same team. It's not like there isn't precedent for such a thing.
 
Still wanna know why you can't just ban Speed Boost + Magic Bounce on the same team. It's not like there isn't precedent for such a thing.

So, I can't use Speed Boost Sharpedo + Magic Bounce Xatu on the same team why?
 
Still wanna know why you can't just ban Speed Boost + Magic Bounce on the same team. It's not like there isn't precedent for such a thing.
Because the combination of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce isnt broken, neither is Baton Pass + Speed Boost, or Substitute + Baton Pass, or Magic Bounce + Baton Pass, or Espeon, or Scolipede, or using 3 Baton Pass users on the same team. What is broken are full baton pass chains which involve several pokemon working together and the only thing that is shared between then is the move itself, which no one seems to want banned and would rather spend more than 50 pages thinking they are going to reach a consensus on arbitrary complex bans that are entirely subject to opinion.
 
Smogon's reasoning would be the same as Blaze-iken. It's unviable, so limiting it wouldn't affect any serious teams.

No I was just being facetious. I thought Swift Swim + Drizzle was banned duel to like 95% of Swift Swimmers being broken when Drizzle was up, and that the situation with Magic Bounce + Speed Boost was nowhere near as, well, ridiculous.
 
Because the combination of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce isnt broken, neither is Baton Pass + Speed Boost, or Substitute + Baton Pass, or Magic Bounce + Baton Pass, or Espeon, or Scolipede, or using 3 Baton Pass users on the same team. What is broken are full baton pass chains which involve several pokemon working together and the only thing that is shared between then is the move itself, which no one seems to want banned and would rather spend more than 50 pages thinking they are going to reach a consensus on arbitrary complex bans that are entirely subject to opinion.

Actually, the general consensus (at least among people who are knowledgable about BP and the game in general) seems to be coming to banning baton pass on a specific number of pokemon. I don't see anything wrong with a ban like that at this point (though at first I didn't like it), as its efficient, and doesn't involve a lot of collateral damage
 
Simply going back one page already show dozens of different proposals to nerf baton pass, everyone has different opinions about how they want to approach this subject because theres no correct way to complex ban anything and thats why theyre complex. Even if a significant part of the community decides to limit the number of baton pass users on the same team theres still no ''right'' number to choose.
 
Simply going back one page already show dozens of different proposals to nerf baton pass, everyone has different opinions about how they want to approach this subject because theres no correct way to complex ban anything and thats why theyre complex. Even if a significant part of the community decides to limit the number of baton pass users on the same team theres still no ''right'' number to choose.

Go back further than one page, and you'll find a lot of prominent users supporting banning X number of BP users per team, and Haunter mentioned it as the best proposal he had seen so far. Honestly the discussion really hasn't gone very far in the last 5 or so pages.

If we settle on that proposal, eventually settling on a specific number shouldn't be that difficult.
 
Thats not a consensus, there are dozens and dozens of different opinions about this (ignoring the trolls obviously) and even at the ''limit number of bp users'' argument there isnt a ''right'' number as i stated before. Thats what a complex ban is, arbitrary.
 
Thats not a consensus, there are dozens and dozens of different opinions about this (ignoring the trolls obviously) and even at the ''limit number of bp users'' argument there isnt a ''right'' number as i stated before. Thats what a complex ban is, arbitrary.

There's definitely more people supporting the limit number of bp users ban than who support banning Baton Pass, so there's that. You said that "the combination of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce isnt broken, neither is Baton Pass + Speed Boost, or Substitute + Baton Pass, or Magic Bounce + Baton Pass, or Espeon, or Scolipede, or using 3 Baton Pass users on the same team". Baton Pass isn't anymore broken that any of the things you mentioned. It has many legitimate uses such as escaping pursuit, gaining switch initiative, and quick passing. Banning a specific number of BP users per team only hurts full Baton Pass teams, while leaving all of its individual components intact. It has absolutely no effect on non-BP teams. Why ban Baton Pass, which would make several non-broken pokemon (such as Espeon or Celebi) much worse?

Also who says there has to be a "right" number? We can just settle on a number based on what we think will nerf BP teams to the point where they are manageable.
 
Would a complete banning of the ability Speed Boost be enough of a nerf to Baton Pass teams? (I know this makes a couple pokemon even worse than they already are (Ninjask/ Sharpedo)

I think that way Baton Pass teams can be still made but it just makes it incredibly difficult to set up a win.

Edit: I know it is a slightly complex ban but thinking of it more "Speed Boost + Baton Pass" on same pokemon would be a better ban.
 
at the ''limit number of bp users'' argument there isnt a ''right'' number
What are you talking about? There's only 2 sides to that argument, 2 if you think BP is inherently uncompetitive and want BP chains banned, 3 if you think it just needs a nerf to keep it from being OP. There are those who want 4, but they're mostly anti-ban people looking for the minimum and I haven't heard a good reason for 4 instead of 3.

If the final decision were up to a group vote, then yes, this would be a problem, but it's not. All this discussion is for is to give the tiering counsel an idea of what the populous thinks about the issue. Since they make the executive decision, we don't have to come to a consensus.
 
There's definitely more people supporting the limit number of bp users ban than who support banning Baton Pass, so there's that. You said that "the combination of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce isnt broken, neither is Baton Pass + Speed Boost, or Substitute + Baton Pass, or Magic Bounce + Baton Pass, or Espeon, or Scolipede, or using 3 Baton Pass users on the same team". Baton Pass isn't anymore broken that any of the things you mentioned. It has many legitimate uses such as escaping pursuit, gaining switch initiative, and quick passing. Banning a specific number of BP users per team only hurts full Baton Pass teams, while leaving all of its individual components intact. Why ban Baton Pass, which would make several non-broken pokemon (such as Espeon or Celebi) much worse?
The point is to avoid complex bans while dealing with the issue at hand. Thats why we banned swagger instead of swagger+foul play, swagger+thunder wave, swagger+prankster or whatever, thats why we banned blaziken and not blaziken+speed boost, blaziken+swords dance. Baton pass is the only thing that can be banned that will simuntaniously remove whats broken from the metagame while being simple and straight to the point. Everything in this gen that has been banned hasnt suffered any kind of complex ban, why does bp deserves one to stay at the meta when a bunch of other things are not?

What are you talking about? There's only 2 sides to that argument, 2 if you think BP is inherently uncompetitive and want BP chains banned, 3 if you think it just needs a nerf to keep it from being OP. There are those who want 4, but they're mostly anti-ban people looking for the minimum and I haven't heard a good reason for 4 instead of 3.

If the final decision were up to a group vote, then yes, this would be a problem, but it's not. All this discussion is for is to give the tiering counsel an idea of what the populous thinks about the issue. Since they make the executive decision, we don't have to come to a consensus.
Thats what i meant by ''people have different opinions''.
 
The point is to avoid complex bans while dealing with the issue at hand. Thats why we banned swagger instead of swagger+foul play, swagger+thunder wave, swagger+prankster or whatever, thats why we banned blaziken and not blaziken+speed boost, blaziken+swords dance. Baton pass is the only thing that can be banned that will simuntaniously remove whats broken from the metagame while being simple and straight to the point. Everything in this gen that has been banned hasnt suffered any kind of complex ban, why does bp deserves one to stay at the meta when a bunch of other things are not?


Thats what i meant by ''people have different opinions''.
Baton Pass has useful niches not on full out Baton Pass teams. Swagger was gimmicky at best and Blaze-iken was completely outclassed. However, Baton has its uses for QuickPass and avoiding Pursuit, two viable aspects of the metagame that will get unnecessarily hurt by a ban on Baton Pass.
 
Thats what i meant by ''people have different opinions''.
All right, but how is that a bad thing? Like I said, the ultimate decision isn't decided by "people," so what does it matter if they don't agree? What are they gonna do, quit smogon over this? Swagger had a similar problem, and the council made a choice that not that many people seriously supported. It left a lot of people scratching their heads, but nobody complained (that I noticed anyway)

As for the complex thing, I've been saying from the beginning that simple bans like banning Scolipede shouldn't be discounted just for the collateral damage, but one thing the community has made a consensus on is that BP is a unique case, and that a simple ban to eliminate BP chains could possibly do more damage than good. I haven't seen anybody seriously suggest to out right ban Baton Pass in forever, because it's a good move that adds to the meta game by making otherwise terrible pokes usable and good pokes great, but in the case of defensive passing, it's a toxin that needs to be expelled.
 
Scolipede will still be a viable Pokemon, but getting rid of Baton Pass makes it so that it can't QuickPass Swords Dances anymore, which is the main draw of using it. Celebi QuickPasses Nasty Plots, and can use Baton Pass to escape Pursuit. Gorebyss' only niche is SmashPass. They would all be hurt by unnecessarily banning BP.
 
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Has everyone forgotten how we do things?

We don't do complex bans, unless they're absolutely necessary.

We don't ban sets, abilities, or moves on a pokemon, we ban the pokemon.

We don't do complex bans just to protect pokemon's other sets.

We don't care what people think about our policies.

We (OU) don't care about what happens in ubers.

And we don't put up with uncompetitive or broken garbage.


That said, BP is a unique situation that might fall under the "absolutely necessary." If we can get passed the "is this really worth a ban?" people, we should discuss how BP warrants a complex ban (or doesn't).

What I don't want to hear is any more of the people who just repeat that "it's the whole team together" stuff. It's not that hard to experiment with BP and determine how each team member contributes to the overall set, and determine which ones have what effects.

I personally think the blame falls on scolipede with it's automatic speed and reliable defense boost. Banning Scolipede (at least on BP teams) will force BP abusers to earn free turns at the beginning of the match, leaving them even more susceptible to offensive pressure, and also, without the iron defense from the get go, they will be significantly more susceptible to physical attacks. Banning Espeon on the other hand won't solve the root problem of needing to have a specific way to deal with BP, it'll just increase the number of specific ways available.

If we choose to limit the number of BP users per team, then the answer is either 2 or 3. I'd prefer 3 because with 2, it's very difficult to reliably set up a pokemon and react to counters as they switch in, but I can understand how people feel even a core of just Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon possess too much resistance to would be BP counters.

I agree with this analysis, however, banning Scolipede would only make BP teams consider Focus Sash Ninjask since he has Speed Boost + Baton Pass + Protect + Insert boosting move(s) here...

Like you said... this is the ONE time where... if a ban were to take place... that a Complex Ban might be needed....

Also, on a speculative note... I believe that the Complex Ban would have to be something involving "Speed Boost + Magic Bounce."

Yes I understand that would mean that Sharpedo and Xatu, as AlphaSpade mentioned, would be unintentional collateral in this but, this would be the "simplest" complex ban due to the fact that the distribution of these moves (4 mons with Speed Boost & 3 with Magic Bounce) is very limited and thus, would have the biggest impact on BP teams without affecting the rest of the Meta.
 
Scolipede will still be a viable Pokemon, but getting rid of Baton Pass makes it so that it can't QuickPass Swords Dances anymore, which is the main draw of using it. Celebi QuickPasses Nasty Plots, and can use Baton Pass to escape Pursuit. Gorebyss' only niche is SmashPass. They would all be hurt by unnecessarily banning BP.
None of these things need baton pass to be viable, but i do get your point and im stopping with the discussion here as at this point i know baton pass will receive some sort of nerf that will stop it being broken and thats what matters the most.
 
Drizzle wasn't banned because it isn't broken alone, Swift Swim wasn't banned because it isn't broken alone, Politoed wasn't banned because it isn't broken alone. Drizzle + Swift Swim as a combination was the very thing that was broken, so it got banned, while other obviously non-broken strategies could still be used, such as Rain stall and Thunder/Hurricane/Hydro Pump, the difference being not every relevant user of those strategies were broken while almost everything that got Swift Swim could abuse perma rain to the point of broken.

Same thing I see here with Baton Pass. I'm pretty sure this argument has already been said but: Baton Pass is not broken on its own, Speed Boost + Baton Pass is not broken on its own, Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is not broken on its own, Magic Bounce + Speed Boost + Baton Pass is not broken, etc. It's a combination of 6 Pokemon that make it broken. Banning any individual move or Pokemon would make no sense in this case when they are obviously not at fault.

If you were a newcomer to Smogon and saw the banlist, what would you think of a ban on, say, the combination of Magic Bounce + Speed Boost? I get that this is hardly a good argument but the point is that banning a combo of Magic Bounce + Speed Boost or something similar is unnecessarily complicated. How would you explain this complex ban? "oh this combo is banned because Espeon and Scolipede with Baton Pass are commonly seen on Baton Pass chains and BP chains are broken"? I do see the reasoning behind these proposals but I believe they are unnecessarily complex and difficult to understand at surface value; they don't get to the core of what is broken. Every single proposal so far, be it for a Speed Boost + Magic Bounce ban, boils down to how they are broken because of Baton Pass.

If that was difficult to understand, see it this way: if you take away Baton Pass, would Scolipede or Espeon be broken? Nah. If you take away Scolipede and Espeon, would BP chains be broken? They'll surely be less powerful but it's still very easy to play around a team without phazers or Taunt users. Why are we probing so far when Baton Pass is obviously the issue?

Now, I've stated that BP alone is not broken, and I'm sure many of us would agree. It's the combination of BP users in a team that make it so. Hence, I'm all for the argument of ban multiple BP users per team. Simple, to the point. No need for roundabout bans of Espeon/Scolipede/whatever because themselves alone aren't the issue. Of course, there comes the issue of what number is the limit. But going by the number of important Pokemon in BP teams, we should be able to derive a number. For instance, every full BP chain needs a speed booster, a magic bounce/soundproof user, and a defense booster at the bare minimum. I propose that limiting 3 baton pass users is a good number that would significantly nerf BP chains while retaining the benefit of every section of BP chains on their own.
 
The reason I dislike the Baton Pass playstyle is because I can actually see it dragging our metagame down a little more each day. Non-pass teams are turning to gimmick mons that are useless in OU besides countering baton pass *cough* Shedinja, Musharna *cough*. So as such, non-pass teams are getting shittier. I honestly believe BP should be nerfed to hell and the move should have a maximum of 2 users per team (Not three but two.) You can utilize Quickpass with two BP users. You can do what BP was known for in Gen 2 and 3 (racking up boosts with one mon and then passing boosts to a sweeper) but you can't pussyfoot boosts around an entire team in an attempt to remain untouchable.
 
I agree with this analysis, however, banning Scolipede would only make BP teams consider Focus Sash Ninjask since he has Speed Boost + Baton Pass + Protect + Insert boosting move(s) here...

Like you said... this is the ONE time where... if a ban were to take place... that a Complex Ban might be needed....

Also, on a speculative note... I believe that the Complex Ban would have to be something involving "Speed Boost + Magic Bounce."

Yes I understand that would mean that Sharpedo and Xatu, as AlphaSpade mentioned, would be unintentional collateral in this but, this would be the "simplest" complex ban due to the fact that the distribution of these moves (4 mons with Speed Boost & 3 with Magic Bounce) is very limited and thus, would have the biggest impact on BP teams without affecting the rest of the Meta.
When I tried Ninjask, there was only one thing that came to mind, "this guy sucks." Seriously, he can't take a hit, ever. he can protect and substitute for 6 turns, but he'll literally never get to use that stat move (which would be limited to either Swords Dance, hone claws, or agility). He'd lose to literally any pokemon with priority (other than sucker punch), is incredible set up bait, and can pretty much be used once, maybe twice, so the niche counters will be significantly more reliable. He still beats most stall teams, but he's so bad against just about everything else that no serious player can expect to use him and win against a half-way decent player. If you want to ladder with BP teams, you'll be forced to use Gliscor, Zapdos, or Smeargle. BP teams will still be an auto win vs bad players, but if I can add something to that list you quoted, it'd be

We don't care about low rank players.

Now, on a totally different note, I don't think an action against Espeon or Magic Bounce will solve anything. Besides taunt and phazing, substitute takes care of things just fine, so banning Espeon will just result in more ingrain and Mr. Mime usage. Stall teams will be forced to carry either taunt, or whirlwind and a way to deal with Smeargle on literally every team, which is miles ahead of where we are now (especially since whirlwind is actually decent on Skarmory), but that wouldn't be my first choice.

Drizzle wasn't banned because it isn't broken alone, Swift Swim wasn't banned because it isn't broken alone, Politoed wasn't banned because it isn't broken alone. Drizzle + Swift Swim as a combination was the very thing that was broken, so it got banned, while other obviously non-broken strategies could still be used, such as Rain stall and Thunder/Hurricane/Hydro Pump, the difference being not every relevant user of those strategies were broken while almost everything that got Swift Swim could abuse perma rain to the point of broken.

Same thing I see here with Baton Pass. I'm pretty sure this argument has already been said but: Baton Pass is not broken on its own, Speed Boost + Baton Pass is not broken on its own, Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is not broken on its own, Magic Bounce + Speed Boost + Baton Pass is not broken, etc. It's a combination of 6 Pokemon that make it broken. Banning any individual move or Pokemon would make no sense in this case when they are obviously not at fault.

If you were a newcomer to Smogon and saw the banlist, what would you think of a ban on, say, the combination of Magic Bounce + Speed Boost? I get that this is hardly a good argument but the point is that banning a combo of Magic Bounce + Speed Boost or something similar is unnecessarily complicated. How would you explain this complex ban? "oh this combo is banned because Espeon and Scolipede with Baton Pass are commonly seen on Baton Pass chains and BP chains are broken"? I do see the reasoning behind these proposals but I believe they are unnecessarily complex and difficult to understand at surface value; they don't get to the core of what is broken. Every single proposal so far, be it for a Speed Boost + Magic Bounce ban, boils down to how they are broken because of Baton Pass.

If that was difficult to understand, see it this way: if you take away Baton Pass, would Scolipede or Espeon be broken? Nah. If you take away Scolipede and Espeon, would BP chains be broken? They'll surely be less powerful but it's still very easy to play around a team without phazers or Taunt users. Why are we probing so far when Baton Pass is obviously the issue?

Now, I've stated that BP alone is not broken, and I'm sure many of us would agree. It's the combination of BP users in a team that make it so. Hence, I'm all for the argument of ban multiple BP users per team. Simple, to the point. No need for roundabout bans of Espeon/Scolipede/whatever because themselves alone aren't the issue. Of course, there comes the issue of what number is the limit. But going by the number of important Pokemon in BP teams, we should be able to derive a number. For instance, every full BP chain needs a speed booster, a magic bounce/soundproof user, and a defense booster at the bare minimum. I propose that limiting 3 baton pass users is a good number that would significantly nerf BP chains while retaining the benefit of every section of BP chains on their own.
My problem with this post is the line "Baton Pass is so obviously the issue."

It is obviously an issue, but any argument about how those pokemon aren't broken without baton pass can go the other way, and say that baton pass isn't broken without those pokemon.

I posted here my thought process, but basically, Espeon and Scolipede are definitely issues too, just less obvious because support pokemon rarely get the reaction offensive ones do.
 
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