Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[leafbarrett]

"If you have more than 4 Baton Passers you cannot use Ingrain or Stored Power (this would allow Magic Bounce to stop phasing but encourages skillful play on both sides. Since wrongly switching Espeon into Skarmory or Hippowdons physical attacks from the start will quickly tip the favor towards the stall team)."

Except that even for a complex ban this is ridiculous, Our only complex ban before was Drizzle+Swift swim. After seeing your signature, You'd have to make ONE complex ban work like three and that is definitely asking for too much. If 3 baton passers will kill the chain passing/Defensive passing of Baton pass then so be it but the truth is, Defensive passing is a solid playstyle that has very few counters that don't absolutely cripple yourself and even then most of these can be manageable by smart plays as you yourself suggested with Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados's Roar can go through Baton Pass but I'm pretty sure it doesn't negate ingrain. Haze Quagsire isn't an auto counter to BP either as the sheer power of Stored power along with a few boosts can kill Quagsire before it hazes and just sweep the rest of your team with it. Three Baton passers limit this greatly and it'll be more manageable but still alive and not as powerful as it already is, With 3 Baton passes in Scolipede, Smearlge and Vaporeon, you can get up to +4 in every stat (except attack and maybe Sp. Att) with an ingrain with good playing and then set up Espeon as your win condition with Sub, Stored Power, and any other moves you think you might need. This greatly balances it and makes more and more pokemon effective against them.

Has there even been a situation in the past where the problem was an entire team being broken?

I'm personally pro-nerf, specifically of the user cap variety. 3 seems like a reasonable cap to me, though I guess 4 isn't out of the question. 2 is kinda pushing it a bit far with the nerfbat, and 5 is basically pointless.

 

[Durant]

Ok we should nerf baton pass for one big reason:
At the beginning of this thread Haze Quagsire was a joke, now people are actually considering Haze Quagsire.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Though I do agree with this... lets not throw ALL players under this broad paint stroke. Remember, we also made a point a few pages ago about how BP players can literally reach 1700+ ELO by simply riding the team through the ladder with little to no knowledge how pokemon outside of the components of their team and the checks/counters to it.

Its a two-sided coin and though players may not sport sexy ELOs, some can still provide constructive input on topics such as this...

Just wanted to throw that out there...

If a player wants to be taken seriously, all they got to do is get a rating of 1600 or what ever the lowest weighting rank is. Since Ninjask is not effective enough to let a bad player win, we don't have to worry about it.

56k , I won't tell you to read the last 60 pages of discussion, but your posts tell me you clearly haven't. For one, there is no way to "counter" Baton Pass (except for prankster taunt), just a lot of semi effective checks. We are way past burden of proof, just read Haunter's post and try to understand that we're mostly basing our arguments off of the experience of somebody on the ladder.

And did you call prediction a 50% guess, and Talonflame, a poke that needs defog support more than anything not skill based? You clearly don't understand what smogon does, so why are you here?

 

[Ender Wiggin]

If you ask me, I dont think baton pass is the entire problem.
Some pokemon, like Scolipede and Espeon, are forced to rely on BPass to stay viable. Its not that Baton Pass is broken. Its full BP teams.

I'm not sure that belonging to a strategy is a crime. Deosharp is the main reason both pokemon are so viable is there a problem with that? Absolutely not. You seem to imply that simply because baton pass is the reason they are viable baton pass team should be hit. This is totally not the case. If baton pass is recognized as another strategy regardless of mindlessness it should definetly make certain pokemon viable for only that reason. The only reason a hit would be needed if baton pass is deemed to over powered. I still fail to see how it is. It's a strategy like stall or HO or rain. Good luck naming one pokemon that can counter every form of one of those teams. I think people expecting to find a one pokemon counter to baton pass is absurd.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

56k , I won't tell you to read the last 60 pages of discussion, but your posts tell me you clearly haven't. For one, there is no way to "counter" Baton Pass (except for prankster taunt), just a lot of semi effective checks. We are way past burden of proof, just read Haunter's post and try to understand that we're mostly basing our arguments off of the experience of somebody on the ladder.

And did you call prediction a 50% guess, and Talonflame, a poke that needs defog support more than anything not skill based? You clearly don't understand what smogon does, so why are you here?

I just want to point out that not one playstyle is countered by a single pokemon. You can't just say that a team of six pokemon can't be countered by a single pokemon and use it as an argument to call a playstyle broken. You can choose from a lot of checks as you say, just as you can with any other playstyle (e.g. Wallbreakers like Kyurem-B for Stall or Ferrothorn for Rain teams). They make it easier for you to win, but they won't guarantee it. Asking for something like that is pretty ridiculous and it's been done way to many times in the past 60 pages (which tbh aren't even worth reading barring Haunters posts ofcourse as most of it is complete theorymon or arguing about pokemon like Imprison Musharna and Haze Quagsire).

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

If a player wants to be taken seriously, all they got to do is get a rating of 1600 or what ever the lowest weighting rank is. Since Ninjask is not effective enough to let a bad player win

56k , I won't tell you to read the last 60 pages of discussion, but your posts tell me you clearly haven't. For one, there is no way to "counter" Baton Pass (except for prankster taunt), just a lot of semi effective checks. We are way past burden of proof, just read Haunter's post and try to understand that we're mostly basing our arguments off of the experience of somebody on the ladder.

And did you call prediction a 50% guess, and Talonflame, a poke that needs defog support more than anything not skill based? You clearly don't understand what smogon does, so why are you here?

Fair enough... just wanted to throw that out there as because of F*KIN BP teams, my stats suffered (see below).

I'm literally 0-8 against them and probabably played approximately 35-45 matches give or take:

Either that or, when it comes to battling, I'm a complete and utter noob!!!

(SAY IT AIN'T SOOOOOOOOOO..... WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!)

Ladder Elo GXE Glicko-1
OU 1473 68.2 1645 ± 44

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Ok we should nerf baton pass for one big reason:
At the beginning of this thread Haze Quagsire was a joke, now people are actually considering Haze Quagsire.

The thing is, Haze Quag does a bit more than stop BP teams, however, that's for Stall. Haze Quag is not meant for HO, or really any other Play style since it really is more of a hindrance as it stops momentum, and otherwise takes up a team slot over a powerful scarf user that can stop set up 'mons in the first place.

But, the fact that Haze is an all of a sudden relevant move outside of defensive and stall teams, should tell everyone something.

Anyways, I don't think BP should get banned, however a limit on the users would be the right thing to do in my opinion, and I think, reading most of the posts here, the majority agrees. The only problem I ever see coming of that is having 4 BP 'mons pass to mHeracross or something and it's extremely difficult to take down. In which case, the problem is still there, and even limiting the amount of 'mons is not enough to cap it. It's difficult to say what should happen really.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I just want to point out that not one playstyle is countered by a single pokemon. You can't just say that a team of six pokemon can't be countered by a single pokemon and use it as an argument to call a playstyle broken. You can choose from a lot of checks as you say, just as you can with any other playstyle (e.g. Wallbreakers like Kyurem-B for Stall or Ferrothorn for Rain teams). They make it easier for you to win, but they won't guarantee it. Asking for something like that is pretty ridiculous and it's been done way to many times in the past 60 pages (which tbh aren't even worth reading barring Haunters posts ofcourse as most of it is complete theorymon or arguing about pokemon like Imprison Musharna and Haze Quagsire).

Fair enough, but BP teams interact in a way that only cores do, and cores have checks and counters that prevent them from doing their jobs. The fact that BP doesn't really have a way to get disassembled throws people off. You are correct that a lack of cores is a terrible argument for banning a playing style.

In fact, I don't really think there is a good argument to "ban" BP at all. It clearly disrupts the metagame by giving easy wins, but there's no need to ban it by any means, a small nerf to promote skill would be more than enough

 

[Bruce(hitmon)Lee]

I just created this account because in order to reply to this thread. I've been playing ps for a little over 2 years now and here're my two cents:

Since the release of XY OU, I had only seen 1 baton pass team. This of course changed with the news report on Pokemon Showdown discussing baton pass and its effects on the metagame. I was a little confused because it is a difficult task to define something as over centralizing or unhealthy for the meta when it is only seen once.

After this news release, I decided I'd try out baton pass. It faired pretty well and netted me a decent amount of wins. The problem is, the same thing would occur if someone used a powerful pokemon such as say talonflame against only teams that had no checks/counters to it. It is widely accepted that in order to have a successful team you need a check to certain pokemon. This causes people to do things such as, run earthquake over contact moves for aegislash, run heatran/rotom-w/etc. for talonflame, run taunt over a coverage move to shut down deo-d, etc etc etc. Changing one move or pokemon to counter a whole new team archetype is not a new thing, so why is it so unwelcome? One cannot expect to run a team that counters every single team type or pokemon, this is why you must pick and choose your pokemon, and why pokemon reamains so unpredictabole and fun. How fun would the metagame be if everyone always ran the same things and was able to counter every pokemon. (sounds almost like current ou anyway, heatran, rotom-w, talonflame, mega pinsir, tyranitar, aegislash, etc.... change would be fun). Maybe baton pass will become a problem if it is used as much as the current top ou pokemon are, but at the moment, I just do not view it as one.

P.S. I beat the one baton pass team I saw, even though I was unprepared for it haha

 

[-Flygon-]

I just created this account because in order to reply to this thread. I've been playing ps for a little over 2 years now and here're my two cents:

Since the release of XY OU, I had only seen 1 baton pass team. This of course changed with the news report on Pokemon Showdown discussing baton pass and its effects on the metagame. I was a little confused because it is a difficult task to define something as over centralizing or unhealthy for the meta when it is only seen once.

After this news release, I decided I'd try out baton pass. It faired pretty well and netted me a decent amount of wins. The problem is, the same thing would occur if someone used a powerful pokemon such as say talonflame against only teams that had no checks/counters to it. It is widely accepted that in order to have a successful team you need a check to certain pokemon. This causes people to do things such as, run earthquake over contact moves for aegislash, run heatran/rotom-w/etc. for talonflame, run taunt over a coverage move to shut down deo-d, etc etc etc. Changing one move or pokemon to counter a whole new team archetype is not a new thing, so why is it so unwelcome? One cannot expect to run a team that counters every single team type or pokemon, this is why you must pick and choose your pokemon, and why pokemon reamains so unpredictabole and fun. How fun would the metagame be if everyone always ran the same things and was able to counter every pokemon. (sounds almost like current ou anyway, heatran, rotom-w, talonflame, mega pinsir, tyranitar, aegislash, etc.... change would be fun). Maybe baton pass will become a problem if it is used as much as the current top ou pokemon are, but at the moment, I just do not view it as one.

P.S. I beat the one baton pass team I saw, even though I was unprepared for it haha

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen a single BP team in my entire time on PS, and even though I only started at the beginning of Gen 6, that's a fairly long time, about 6 months, without facing such a "threat". Honestly, while it is cheap to use an entire BP team to win, it's not nearly that common, at least from my experiences. Is it really necessary to impose such a ban on an obsolete strategy that is entirely predictable and counter-able? Swagger was considered too powerful, but it's a legitimate playstyle based on luck, which one might argue are similar to a lot of playstyles of the current metagame, like ParaFlinch and Super Luck. I think that if a player could actually pull off a 5-Pokémon chain without a hitch, and being able to outsmart the opponent enough to get that final Pokemon out and ready to sweep, deserves the win, because it is fairly manageable to deal with. Good strategies should be embraced, and that includes BP, so I'm in favor of keeping it. Again, just my opinion, but feel free to bash, because I feel strongly about this topic, and would enjoy a friendly, or not-so-friendly discussion.

EDIT: I have no negative feelings towards those who believe differently, and in no way mean to insult either. I just wish to convey my point of view.

 

[tehy]

Can i just point out that you need a really, really good reason to make complex bans? Honestly, what we're trying to do seems like "let's nerf it so it's not broken" (is it even broken? who knows) but is still good. That's a dangerous line. You're risking either just nerfing it too hard, thus basically banning it, or still leaving it too good.

Either ban it entirely or don't ban it at all. If you really want to do a complex ban to preserve other forms of baton pass, not an entirely illegitimate endeavor, ban more than one baton pass user on a team.

Or give me a really good reason why there should be a complex ban, because I just don't see it.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I just created this account because in order to reply to this thread. I've been playing ps for a little over 2 years now and here're my two cents:

Since the release of XY OU, I had only seen 1 baton pass team. This of course changed with the news report on Pokemon Showdown discussing baton pass and its effects on the metagame. I was a little confused because it is a difficult task to define something as over centralizing or unhealthy for the meta when it is only seen once.

After this news release, I decided I'd try out baton pass. It faired pretty well and netted me a decent amount of wins. The problem is, the same thing would occur if someone used a powerful pokemon such as say talonflame against only teams that had no checks/counters to it. It is widely accepted that in order to have a successful team you need a check to certain pokemon. This causes people to do things such as, run earthquake over contact moves for aegislash, run heatran/rotom-w/etc. for talonflame, run taunt over a coverage move to shut down deo-d, etc etc etc. Changing one move or pokemon to counter a whole new team archetype is not a new thing, so why is it so unwelcome? One cannot expect to run a team that counters every single team type or pokemon, this is why you must pick and choose your pokemon, and why pokemon reamains so unpredictabole and fun. How fun would the metagame be if everyone always ran the same things and was able to counter every pokemon. (sounds almost like current ou anyway, heatran, rotom-w, talonflame, mega pinsir, tyranitar, aegislash, etc.... change would be fun). Maybe baton pass will become a problem if it is used as much as the current top ou pokemon are, but at the moment, I just do not view it as one.

P.S. I beat the one baton pass team I saw, even though I was unprepared for it haha

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen a single BP team in my entire time on PS, and even though I only started at the beginning of Gen 6, that's a fairly long time, about 6 months, without facing such a "threat". Honestly, while it is cheap to use an entire BP team to win, it's not nearly that common, at least from my experiences. Is it really necessary to impose such a ban on an obsolete strategy that is entirely predictable and counter-able? Swagger was considered too powerful, but it's a legitimate playstyle based on luck, which one might argue are similar to a lot of playstyles of the current metagame, like ParaFlinch and Super Luck. I think that if a player could actually pull off a 5-Pokémon chain without a hitch, and being able to outsmart the opponent enough to get that final Pokemon out and ready to sweep, deserves the win, because it is fairly manageable to deal with. Good strategies should be embraced, and that includes BP, so I'm in favor of keeping it. Again, just my opinion, but feel free to bash, because I feel strongly about this topic, and would enjoy a friendly, or not-so-friendly discussion.

EDIT: I have no negative feelings towards those who believe differently, and in no way mean to insult either. I just wish to convey my point of view.

I'm going to stop you guys right there, because we went down this road before, and it led nowhere.

Something only has to be common enough to get noticed, see Haunter's Post, but Baton Pass is a lot more common, especially on suspect ladders, than you give it credit for, and even if it weren't a common problem, it could still be worthy of a ban.

Can i just point out that you need a really, really good reason to make complex bans? Honestly, what we're trying to do seems like "let's nerf it so it's not broken" (is it even broken? who knows) but is still good. That's a dangerous line. You're risking either just nerfing it too hard, thus basically banning it, or still leaving it too good.

Either ban it entirely or don't ban it at all. If you really want to do a complex ban to preserve other forms of baton pass, not an entirely illegitimate endeavor, ban more than one baton pass user on a team.

Or give me a really good reason why there should be a complex ban, because I just don't see it.

The main reasonings are that banning BP would unnecessarily eliminate quick passing, and since the pokemon on BP teams are only broken on that specific team, nobody wants to ban them either. The # limit has plenty of precedence, so we don't need to justify that, and I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to things like Stored Power + Baton Pass.

 

[Rotosect]

I was under the impression that Haze Quagsire was used to check Mega Gyarados (Mold Breaker ignores Unaware) first and foremost. It's not that redundant.

 

[tehy]

Fine, then ban more than one user on a team, as I already said. Why start going in with 4, 5, etc, and this just starts looking and feeling really stupid.

Plus again, who knows how well it will even work? Maybe the meta changes with new megas or event pokemon and suddenly it's broken again. Maybe Hoopa gets BP or something, who knows? Just either stop BP chains, stop BP, or not at all.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Fine, then ban more than one user on a team, as I already said. Why start going in with 4, 5, etc, and this just starts looking and feeling really stupid.

Plus again, who knows how well it will even work? Maybe the meta changes with new megas or event pokemon and suddenly it's broken again. Maybe Hoopa gets BP or something, who knows? Just either stop BP chains, stop BP, or not at all.

Why should we take unnecessary steps just for things that aren't part of the metagame? We should try to account for, and even promote evolution of the meta, but out right changes, like new pokemon? No, trying to predict like that is just going to complicate the matter. Let's deal with what's broken with as little collateral as realistic, and be done with it.

 

[bobhail9]

Has anyone considered the fact that Quagsire completely counters BP teams? Unaware, Recover, Stockpile, and good damage in EQ and waterfall.
Other than that I wouldn't mind a Espeon+BP ban OR a Scolipede+BP ban but a Blanket Ban cuts out too much (A.K.A bulky pokemon that use it like a shed shell).

 

[Andrew]

A bit off topic here, but I've been seeing sooo many more taunt users these days - Heatran, Thundurus-I, Gyarados-M (even with people saying it's not good), Mandibuzz (already runs taunt a lot but whatevs), DeoD-S(same as mandi), Gengar, Gardevoir, Mew - basically anything that gets taunt is running it, similar to the knock off phenomenon. I even started running taunt on M-Mawile, which is useful against lead Deo-D as they never think to taunt Mawile. It prevents them from getting more hazards up and then u can hit the switch in hard with play rough/coverage move. Annnnyway, besides taunt being a shaky check to BP, which can work sometimes if u constantly pressure espeon, taunt is also a great way to stop entry hazards, set-up, defog, status moves, phasing, recovery, and any other non-attacking move. I think BP has been at least a minor catalyst in this regard, and I think taunt is just a great move for many different reasons (see above ^). You might say, well, u could run a coverage move instead, but really, at least imo, the rise of taunt and other sneaky tactics (haze in a minor, otherwise useless way, phasing, trick, whatever >.<) is leading to a bit more of the Thief/Bandit/Ninja/Scout role as seen in RPG games that I find really fun and exciting. I'm not saying BP has been entirely responsible for this, but I think it has definitely influenced some of the changes we are seeing today. Just wanted to throw this out there as a bit of a change of pace. ~Peace

Has anyone considered the fact that Quagsire completely counters BP teams? Unaware, Recover, Stockpile, and good damage in EQ and waterfall.

As to this post, please read at least the last page or two, please....

 

[bobhail9]

A bit off topic here, but I've been seeing sooo many more taunt users these days - Heatran, Thundurus-I, Gyarados-M (even with people saying it's not good), Mandibuzz (already runs taunt a lot but whatevs), DeoD-S(same as mandi), Gengar, Gardevoir, Mew - basically anything that gets taunt is running it, similar to the knock off phenomenon. I even started running taunt on M-Mawile, which is useful against lead Deo-D as they never think to taunt Mawile. It prevents them from getting more hazards up and then u can hit the switch in hard with play rough/coverage move. Annnnyway, besides taunt being a shaky check to BP, which can work sometimes if u constantly pressure espeon, taunt is also a great way to stop entry hazards, set-up, defog, status moves, phasing, recovery, and any other non-attacking move. I think BP has been at least a minor catalyst in this regard, and I think taunt is just a great move for many different reasons (see above ^). You might say, well, u could run a coverage move instead, but really, at least imo, the rise of taunt and other sneaky tactics (haze in a minor way, phasing, trick, whatever >.<) is leading to a bit more of the Thief/Bandit/Ninja/Scout role as seen in RPG games that I find really fun and exciting. I'm not saying BP has been entirely responsible for this, but I think it has definitely influenced some of the changes we are seeing today. Just wanted to throw this out there as a bit of a change of pace. ~Peace


As to this post, please read at least the last page or two, please....

Let me reword it
Quagsire counters the END RESULT of a BP chain
a +3 Atk +3 Speed Dragonite or Garchomp ;Quagsire laughs at....

To eleborate
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Let me reword it
Quagsire counters the END RESULT of a BP chain
a +3 Atk +3 Speed Dragonite or Garchomp ;Quagsire laughs at....

To eleborate
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Where'd Garchomp come in? here's the calc that matters:

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 1159-1365 (294.1 - 346.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Immortal]

Let me reword it
Quagsire counters the END RESULT of a BP chain
a +3 Atk +3 Speed Dragonite or Garchomp ;Quagsire laughs at....

To eleborate
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

so just don't pass to an "end result" if you have one while Quagsire is still alive on the other team, shouldn't be too tough. Some teams use 6 pokemon with baton pass so they don't even have an end result with one final pokemon designed to do the sweeping that doesn't know BP such as garchomp. Despite this, all you really need to beat Quagsire is one pokemon on your team capable of using just about any grass type attack out there.

Edit: Oh and espeon can just use the BP of stored power to overwhelm it with enough boosts, even if its stat boosts don't count

 

[bobhail9]

Where'd Garchomp come in? here's the calc that matters:

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 1159-1365 (294.1 - 346.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

1. That calc is irrelevant because for that to reach 500 Base Power, Espy has to get 24 stat boosts
2. OK. I didn't know that teams ran 6 BP mons.

 

[Metallic]

Let me reword it
Quagsire counters the END RESULT of a BP chain
a +3 Atk +3 Speed Dragonite or Garchomp ;Quagsire laughs at....

To eleborate
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Except Quagsire gets stomped by Stored Power Espeon, which is on every BP chain team, after a few boosts that are ridiculously easy to obtain.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

1. That calc is irrelevant because for that to reach 500 Base Power, Espy has to get 24 stat boosts
2. OK. I didn't know that teams ran 6 BP mons.

The calc is not irrelevant, because it shows exactly what will happen to any unaware user that doesn't run Haze. BP users will just boost up til stored power can overwhelm you with sheer base power

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 417-492 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's just +6 speed and +2 Defense, something EVERY scolipede can pass very easily while Quagsire:

4 Atk Unaware Quagsire Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 144-169 (52.9 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Barely 2HKO's

Edit: forgot to adjust EV's, but the point was made

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Has anyone considered the fact that Quagsire completely counters BP teams? Unaware, Recover, Stockpile, and good damage in EQ and waterfall.

I use Unaware Quag with haze, and that's hardly true, as Kairyu_Gen1 clearly stated, however, and here we go with the million dollar question, AGAIN, does that mean everyone should carry Unaware Quag to stop these BP teams? No, they shouldn't. Sableye did the same thing to Kanga for the most part, but guess who rightfully got the kick anyways. . .

 

[bobhail9]

I use Unaware Quag with haze, and that's hardly true, as Kairyu_Gen1 clearly stated, however, and here we go with the million dollar question, AGAIN, does that mean everyone should carry Unaware Quag to stop these BP teams? No, they shouldn't. Sableye did the same thing to Kanga for the most part, but guess who rightfully got the kick anyways. . .

True