Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Ender Wiggin]

So shouldn't this alone be argument enough for over-centralization? Even if Offensive teams have a number of ways to beat it, and have a fighting's chance, the fact that it forces Stall to rely on a single shaky counter, and determines the game at matchup for teams without this specific counter, is a reason enough to nerf it.

I'm pretty unexperienced with stall I won't pretend to know how it works but most of the time don't you have at least one sweeper?

And several strategies can be pretty heavily countered by each other you do bring up an interesting point and I wonder if anybody has any other options.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

I haven't posted in the thread yet, but I've read through the 60+ pages and lurked constantly so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

I'd like to say so. It's a team that's shockingly similar to make, and use, AND it also allows it to easily beat teams that don't have a good counter. As a personal anecdote, I'd like to share a few /ranks that I have.

1630 GXE:78 67-33-2
1463 GXE:84 46-11-0
1410 GXE:79 18-0-0

The first is one of my main laddering accounts (not as high of a ranking as I'd like because I often use it to test ideas), the second is the account I used to get suspect reqs for the last OU suspect, and the last is a fresh account I used to play around with baton pass. It's ridiculous how much of a cruise control the game becomes once you use baton pass. Heck, I had a friend tell me today "lol I got to 1300 on OU with deniss's baton pass team!" It's not that impressive when you think about it, but this friend I'm talking about has no pokemon knowledge. Like, he doesn't even know the types, or the new pokemon and moves. And he's at 1300?

I know there's a lot of arguments on both sides and I know the precedents, but I'm leaning on the opinion that something needs to be done for baton pass chains.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

That's pretty easy. Two answers: Scolipede and Sylveon. Scolipede is Ninjask with 44 more base def, 16 more base spD, a base 100 attack that has some semblance of threat. Scolipede also has iron defense, which Ninjask does not. Being able to pass defense and speed together is an extremely helpful tool. Sylveon is also extremely tanky, has great typing, and a very powerful STAB that also bypasses substitutes. These two together allow a baton pass team to gather defense quickly to not get overrun by most offense.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

While it's undeniable banning one or the other or both would make Baton pass more manageable (if not outright crippled), I'm not too in favor of that. These pokemon aren't broken by themselves and I'd like to see them used, just not in something like baton pass.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

No. Baton pass has a lot of other uses like passing a sub, escaping pursuit, and smashpass. I do not support a blanket ban on baton pass just to nerf baton pass chains.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Probably a limit on number of passers in a team. This way, there will be less collateral damage. I'd say 3-4 baton passers max, but I know a baton pass only really needs 3 to function (Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon, the 3 most important members of a baton pass chain)

 

[TheNextDimentions]

What I still don't get about this whole Baton Pass debate is why do people say there is no counters to Baton Pass (and yes, there are some cases where there are no counters, but let me continue talking.) However, all Baton Pass really is is setting up in the opponent's face and getting away with it. The only reason why its overpowered is because the metagame hasn't evolved to counter that and the likes of Scolipede. Everyone's like "OMG Stored Power's power's over 9000!" but you are all missing the point. If you are really so upset at Baton Pass teams, why not use them yourself?

As I learned with my first baton pass team, a simple response would be (as suggested earlier) Red Card Ditto, which can fit on any team. Another easy response is to pull out your entry hazard setter (since baton pass teams lack rapid spin) and throw some toxic spikes (since reg. spikes and stealth rock are not really enough to KO a pokemon). And while a baton pass to Espeon is not a big deal (because if you actually trigger that, their upgrading is at a standstill and you can start attacking), as you may notice, that is thwarted by Scolipede, who can scoff at your Hazard-setting and raise its own speed at the same time. This is not accomplishable by frail Ninjask, who lacks a Poison-typing to absorb. Scolipede can then retaliate with its own Toxic Spikes to frustrate the attacking team or it can Iron Defence in front of a physical attacker, all while outspeeding. It can then stall a fast Substitute and Protect getting free speed boosts along the way. No wonder he makes such a good lead.

However, despite that Ninjask can outspeed too, we meet fellow Baton Passer Espeon, notorious for Magic Bounce, but moreso for Stored Power. And given that nobody uses Dark types, with Espeon's speed through the roof, STAB, and the cheat Speed boosts, it's like using Sheer Cold with perfect accuracy. How is this possible? First of all I think it's fair if you actually had to use a strategy to get the boosts, but Speed Boost makes it way too easy. If you actually had to take damage, that would be another issue. In my opinion setting up the defensive boosts is fair (taking out Speed Boost). If you let them do that instead of hitting them with a status of your choice or slamming them with the stat they're not upgrading, then you deserve to be toast. (Either that or you should be banning usage of that stat modifier.) Since it is possible to beat most of the Baton Passing Pokemon with the stat they're not boosting, it's as fair as a defensive/specially defensive wall would be.

If you just stay on your toes, you can beat any Baton Pass team (with the exception of Speed Boost -> Stored Power) Yet to keep it in mind why are all of these threats? Cause they're a chain. They're able to pass their stat boosts around. But it isn't the move itself, it's how it's used. Ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass (or if the devs are ok with it Speed Boost + Baton Pass with another Pokemon having Stored Power), and you kill practically every uncompetitive Baton Passing team there is. Just because a team has Baton Pass doesn't mean it is necessarily used uncompetitively as shown in the videos. If you think I'm wrong, please post a video so I can update my stance on the situation. Thank you for reading.

EDIT:
@ RandomSpanishGuy Believe it or not. True Baton Passing requires the same prediction as switching out. However, due to Speed Boost, there is always the luxury of going first, which makes Baton Pass like normal switching, unlike how it normally is-- based on your current speed of your pokemon (as the useful Baton Passers in a chain are usually slow)-- which makes true Baton Pass teams fight (via Agility), rather than stall (via Speed Boost), for the power speed boosts bring.
EDIT:
Paragraphized cause "it was an eyesore to read"

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Banning Baton Pass outright doesn't seem fair for quick passing/dry passing, but seeing as how full Baton Pass teams utilizes defense boosts to stop themselves from being overwhelmed by strong priorities and you aren't needing the defensive boosts for quick pass or dry passing anyway, just not just ban Def boosting moves + Baton Pass?! It is one of the biggest buff to Baton Pass teams this gen with Scolipede being able to boost the team's Def early on the game so they can't be overwhelmed with strong priorities, something Ninjask couldn't do. Without those Def boost things like Espeon can be handled more easily with priority Brave Bird or Aerialated Quick Attack. Other usages of Baton Passes don't really depend on boosting Def anyway, like Smash Pass, Quiver Pass, SD pass or Agility/Speed Boost Pass etc., afaik there is nothing as Bulk Up Pass or something like that.

 

[TheNextDimentions]

You forgot Speed Boost with Stored Power. I think that's the main problem with Baton Pass, not the fact you can pass defensive boosts. I see defensive boosts + Baton Pass fair cause you're letting them set up.

 

[Moneyminty]

I feel as a battler, you should be prepared for everything! Some people dont like Malamar Contrary. Some people dont like teams with hazards on almost every pokemon. Baton pass is a legit strategy and easily countered with whirlwind, dragon tail, roar, etc. If you dont equip your mons with these moves, thats your fault, not the person who created his team with this strat. Also, bp is very risky. So why take away a legit strat because some arent prepared for it?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

how have people tried incorporating psych up/haze in to their teams?

Haze works on 'mons that fit into the team. Haze doesn't fit into any sort of offensive team since it ruins any form of momentum they originally had. Also, for any other playstyle outside of BP, haze just isn't viable, no matter how you construe it. . .

There's also about 16 pages on the topic.

I feel as a battler, you should be prepared for everything! Some people dont like Malamar Contrary. Some people dont like teams with hazards on almost every pokemon. Baton pass is a legit strategy and easily countered with whirlwind, dragon tail, roar, etc. If you dont equip your mons with these moves, thats your fault, not the person who created his team with this strat. Also, bp is very risky. So why take away a legit strat because some arent prepared for it?

The same could be said for mega Gengar. . .
Are you meaning to tell me that isn't broken?

As well as mKangaskhan. No one is saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to put a stop to, but the Pokemon typically ran on the cookie cutter BP team make it extremely difficult to stop it at what it does. So much so, that if you don't have a Pokemon, that would otherwise be deadweight for a team, you're SOL straight off at the team Preview.

 

[SagMyPants]

Wow this topic really blew up and I can't get a grasp on what the community concensus is. Banning Espeon or even CB Espeon with a move just seems...unelegant to me.

Is anyone seriously interested in banning BP altogether? BP teams aren't original but they are a breath of fresh air compared to just switching. 6v6 has cores and synergy but BP is a concrete form of synergy in a singles format. If we don't have BP, we lose the richness of that system.

Would it be reasonable to do a simple ban on Contrary and Speed Boost? Those would significantly hinder the BP strategy and most teams that run any hazards carry a shuffler anyway. This is also a more elegant way to ban Blaziken.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Baton pass is a legit strategy and easily countered with whirlwind, dragon tail, roar, etc. If you dont equip your mons with these moves, thats your fault, not the person who created his team with this strat. Also, bp is very risky. So why take away a legit strat because some arent prepared for it?

Whirlwind - reflected by Espeon's Magic Bounce
Dragon Tail - Sylveon/Mr. Mime's Fairy Type renders them immune.
Roar - Reflected by Espeon, Immune thanks to Mr. Mime's ability
Also, all of the above are shut down by Smeargle's Ingrain.

The pokemon with these moves are fairly predictable, and any BP user with half a brain can switch in at their leisure to the appropriate counter to the counter. And if you do manage to connect with one of these switchers, what's going to stop them from switching/Baton Passing to the appropriate counter the second time? You probably don't have hazards on thanks to Espeon, so there's no penalty to the BP team and they're free to start the chain again.

As of the moment, there is close to zero risk involved for BP teams when battling. Their only concerns at this point are random crits, and once they've managed to garner enough boosts to unleash 2HKO/OHKO Stored Powers crits aren't that much of a problem.

 

[TheNextDimentions]

For Pete's Sake, this is only possible when you are faster than the opponent! If Baton Pass goes last what can you do? I just talked about this. Did you guys even read my post at the top of the page???

 

[the-bumper-car]

Getting Speed Boosts is trivial on a BP Team - there's Scolipede's Protect/Substitute/Iron Defense dance, there's Agility Zapdos, and there's even Quiver Dance Smeargle.

 

[SagMyPants]

Getting Speed Boosts is trivial on a BP Team - there's Scolipede's Protect/Substitute/Iron Defense dance, there's Agility Zapdos, and there's even Quiver Dance Smeargle.

Good point. However I think we should avoid Complex Bans as much as possible.

I suppose the following bans are not going to happen: Scolipede, Espeon, Smeargle, Substitute, Magic Bounce

I support the new clause idea. Baton Pass clause - BP can only be passed once.

 

[KztxL7]

For Pete's Sake, this is only possible when you are faster than the opponent! If Baton Pass goes last what can you do? I just talked about this. Did you guys even read my post at the top of the page???

Because Speed Boost does not exist right?

I wouldn't be surprised if people skipped over that post because it was literally just a block of text making it an eyesore to read. It also leads off by saying "why people think Baton Pass has no counters" when anyone who knows anything about this stuff knows that Baton Pass does have its counters and checks, mainly in offensive teams which is the problem.

 

[TheNextDimentions]

Because Speed Boost does not exist right?

I wouldn't be surprised if people skipped over that post because it was literally just a block of text making it an eyesore to read. It also leads off by saying "why people think Baton Pass has no counters" when anyone who knows anything about this stuff knows that Baton Pass does have its counters and checks, mainly in offensive teams which is the problem.

If you read the previous posts directly above my post, you'll notice that they really thought so. And plus, how else do I prove something without a proof. Am I supposed to write a few lines for it to be good? I'm sorry if so. I'm not that good at conveying my ideas and if I cannot contribute to this thread even when I spend thirty minutes writing it out, so be it. Plus you don't really give any proof to why offensive teams is the problem. Without any proof, I or anyone could say Magikarp makes a good sweeper. Do you understand why I wrote that whole text now?

 

[AuguryOfRuin]

I know smogon hates complex bans, but as far as I Can see theres no way of avoiding it. From What I have gathered the two issues that keep coming up Are Speed boost and stored Power. So I way We focus on trying to figure out What We Can do about Those two.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I know smogon hates complex bans, but as far as I Can see theres no way of avoiding it. From What I have gathered the two issues that keep coming up Are Speed boost and stored Power. So I way We focus on trying to figure out What We Can do about Those two.

The thing is, it's not just those two that deem the "Strategy" uncompetitive. It's the simplicity behind it, and the lack of skill required to get somewhere with it. Stored Power and Speed Boost just further make BP that much stronger. Even without Stored Power, a +4 SpA Scald from a Vaporeon is going to hurt anything without Water Absorb. And when these Pokes are at about +4 in each stat, there's a huge problem when it comes to getting rid of it.

The true problem lies more so in Scolipede's ease in setting up, and Espeon's ability to make sure the boosts stay around. But, outside of BP, the two aren't "broken" as some would consider them. And that's where the true problem lies. If you ban BP, that means EVERY 'mon that learns it can't use it, which is hurting more than just BP chains, and is too big of a ban to perform. If you ban Scoli or Espeon, the Pokemon themselves aren't "Broken" as much as the "strategy" is. If you limit the amount of 'mons able to learn BP on a team, you essentially end up with 3/4 Pokes setting up in order to pass to a Poke to utilize the stat boosts, forcing the opponent to either somehow get a roar off, or hope for a crit. The problem with that is, then mAbsol will just be the poke receiving the boosts making it impossible to roar it out.

Unfortunately, if anything gets banned or nerfed there will be an unfortunate side effect, whether it be, making a Poke essentially useless, or making a move that was typically used to secure a safe switch unusable anywhere outside of ubers. Neither of which most would like to see.
I could see a BP+Magic Bounce ban, but that only stops one Poke, Mr.Mime stops Roar and Dragon Tail too, which people seem to forget.

It's extremely difficult to see what needs to go that would make the meta a healthy environment to play in.

 

[asbdsp]

A bit off topic here, but I've been seeing sooo many more taunt users these days - Heatran, Thundurus-I, Gyarados-M (even with people saying it's not good), Mandibuzz (already runs taunt a lot but whatevs), DeoD-S(same as mandi), Gengar, Gardevoir, Mew - basically anything that gets taunt is running it, similar to the knock off phenomenon. I even started running taunt on M-Mawile, which is useful against lead Deo-D as they never think to taunt Mawile. It prevents them from getting more hazards up and then u can hit the switch in hard with play rough/coverage move. Annnnyway, besides taunt being a shaky check to BP, which can work sometimes if u constantly pressure espeon, taunt is also a great way to stop entry hazards, set-up, defog, status moves, phasing, recovery, and any other non-attacking move. I think BP has been at least a minor catalyst in this regard, and I think taunt is just a great move for many different reasons (see above ^). You might say, well, u could run a coverage move instead, but really, at least imo, the rise of taunt and other sneaky tactics (haze in a minor, otherwise useless way, phasing, trick, whatever >.<) is leading to a bit more of the Thief/Bandit/Ninja/Scout role as seen in RPG games that I find really fun and exciting. I'm not saying BP has been entirely responsible for this, but I think it has definitely influenced some of the changes we are seeing today. Just wanted to throw this out there as a bit of a change of pace. ~Peace


As to this post, please read at least the last page or two, please....

Actually forgot about taunt somehow when I mentioned phazing as a great tool to stop baton pass teams without Espeon. Taunt is another great way to halt the progress of a stat boosting, subbing bp chain, and can be run on both offensive and defensive teams. The combination of the two would be more than enough options to counter the baton pass strategy in a meta without Espeon.

Currently though, only priority taunt is considered a good countermeasure against bp because it goes before baton pass? I'm not sure, as I haven't tested prankster taunt against bp yet, mostly because most of its users besides thundurus are garbage. Regardless, it seems to me quite clear that Espeon ends up being the factor that puts this strategy over the edge so I'm once again forced to consider Espeon ban as the best option for nerfing BP.

 

[Anty]

Actually forgot about taunt somehow when I mentioned phazing as a great tool to stop baton pass teams without Espeon. Taunt is another great way to halt the progress of a stat boosting, subbing bp chain, and can be run on both offensive and defensive teams. The combination of the two would be more than enough options to counter the baton pass strategy in a meta without Espeon.

Currently though, only priority taunt is considered a good countermeasure against bp because it goes before baton pass? I'm not sure, as I haven't tested prankster taunt against bp yet, mostly because most of its users besides thundurus are garbage. Regardless, it seems to me quite clear that Espeon ends up being the factor that puts this strategy over the edge so I'm once again forced to consider Espeon ban as the best option for nerfing BP.

Every bp runs espeon, that and scoli are required staples and without espy you can just roar and whirlwind. I highly doubt anyone would use a non-espeon bp team.
Prankster thundurus is probably the best counter to bp, hitting them before they can bp out to espeon.

The problem with an espeon ban is that espeon itself is not op, but baton pass + team mates are op, it will stop bp, unless people are willing to use mega absol, but espy is not broken, the only way of stopping it fairly, is with a copmplex ban (only allowed 2/3 bp users in a team)

 

[asbdsp]

Every bp runs espeon, that and scoli are required staples and without espy you can just roar and whirlwind. I highly doubt anyone would use a non-espeon bp team.
Prankster thundurus is probably the best counter to bp, hitting them before they can bp out to espeon.

The problem with an espeon ban is that espeon itself is not op, but baton pass + team mates are op, it will stop bp, unless people are willing to use mega absol, but espy is not broken, the only way of stopping it fairly, is with a copmplex ban (only allowed 2/3 bp users in a team)

Well your first two sentences are precisely why I think we ought to ban espeon.

As for it not being broken, fact is the strategy is broken, in the sense that if top level competitive players actually used baton pass the whole metagame would shift and become much more matchup oriented to deal with it. Espeon just happens to be the most important and destructive part of this broken strategy. And just as with borken/overcentralizing cores of the past like lando/keld/tar in Gen V, we ended up having to isolate the most broken component and banning it. No need to resort to a rather arbitrarily designed complex ban.

 

[AuguryOfRuin]

Well your first two sentences are precisely why I think we ought to ban espeon.

As for it not being broken, fact is the strategy is broken, in the sense that if top level competitive players actually used baton pass the whole metagame would shift and become much more matchup oriented to deal with it. Espeon just happens to be the most important and destructive part of this broken strategy. And just as with borken/overcentralizing cores of the past like lando/keld/tar in Gen V, we ended up having to isolate the most broken component and banning it. No need to resort to a rather arbitrarily designed complex ban.

Espeon is not broken, neiter is scollipede, so why shold we ban them? What about my awesome eevelution team, that has espeon, so you're telling me because person X has used a strategy thats broken and involved espeon in it, now I can't use it? Complex bans are ugly, but even uglier is banning a pokemon that actually is not broken.

 

[Krysco]

Why ban Baton Pass, Espeon and/or Scolipede if alone none of them are broken? What's wrong with limiting the amount of users of Baton Pass? With the examples I've seen for Baton Pass outside of Baton Pass chains is there usually more than one Baton Passer? For example: Espeon using Baton Pass to get away from Pursuit. Whenever someone has an Espeon with Baton Pass for this specific purpose is there usually more Baton Passers on the team? I don't use Espeon or Baton Pass so I honestly don't know.

I've seen people suggest putting the limit down to 3-5 but even with 2 you still get access to Espeon and Scolipede both of which can Baton Pass buffs and Espeon prevents anyone (barring Dragon Tail users) from getting rid of them.

 

[U-Ralph]

Those threads are always a pain to read, yet i had hope when i was readind the OP. Anyway, i will give my point of view on the matter; even if it will be hidden under a flow of post more or less useful.
I didn't take the time to read the full thread, my apologize if those points were discussed before.

I start by defending the fact BP team do not need skill (or very few) to be effective; as a matter of fact you need very few predictions, the only thing you have to keep in mind is taunt, phazing moves, boosting moves, you must also know if the opponents will most likely hit on the special or the physical side. After taking that in account, it's very easy, for Taunt and Phazing use BP on Espeon, for boosting moves, Smeargle or Mr.Mime are your friends with Encore/Spore, ... Even if the opponent try to lure the taunt or whatever it doesn't matter as all your pokemons have bulky spread and can even recover thanks to leftovers/ingrain/MorningSun(for the espeon case). After knowing that the BP user needs to reach +2 Def, +2 SpeDef, +2 Spd and it almost win the game. Moreover, if a skilled player come to play that style it will most likely make very few mistakes and the winner will be disigned before the game was starting, it will completly depend of if the opponent has a tool to manage BP or not; then we can see how it's unfair comparing to other Teams and it has no interest.

Someone will answer, even those team are OP we have a few "counters" for them. I will start to say we can't talk counter for a PlayStyle, BP team (as the team word tell us) are not a Pokemon but well a whole team, and that is a huge difference. Even if a Pokemon can handle some BP teams efficiently, there still is a possibility to see a BP team were a pokemon will be there to counter it.
Pinsir and Talonflamme are a good example for that. They are quite effective in the meta, and manage very well the well known dEnIsSsS team. First of all the BP user can smartly choose to begin with vaporeon or smeargle in order to avoid the begining pressure it would have with scolipede. Also some BP teams use Zapdos which is a very nice check/counter to those pokemon.
I go on with priority taunt user as Thundurus. Thundurus is quite effective in the meta too, taunt is a underrated choice but may be useful against stall ... and against BP if we take it as a legitimate playstyle. In fact, Thundurus will have the potential to break the BP chain at every times it comes and is a BP nightmare. However i saw some BP teams with 5 or 6 of their pokemon with 1 offensive move in order to counter it, and then Thundurus doesn't manage anything.
We can go on with the mentioned quagshire+haze. Haze is a very deadly move for a BP team as it even works through subs. However we can imagine a 5 BP team + Choice Spe Gothitelle who can trap quagshire and remove it from the fight ...
A team can be addapted to manage a pokemon and a pokemon can't, also the fact BP team have a huge advantage over other play style is an issue for the meta, even if some pokemon may manage them better than others.

I will finish that post by giving my thinkings about how nerf BP. The problem of BP is not a pokemon itself. If you nerf scolipede, Zapdos/Gliscor will come with agillity; if you nerf Espeon, Ingrain and mono offensive moves will fix the magic bounce disapearing... As we can see all those potential nerf can be more or less fixed by an other way and nerf a pokemon who can have other usefulness outside of BP. That is why i think our problem is Full BP Teams/BP chain, limiting the total amount of BP users in team seems to be the most effective way (and the easiest btw) to nerf BP team; 2 or 3 users allowed seems to be enought to break chains.

 

[shuun]

Personally i've been running Infiltrator chandelure and substitute and it is able to handle some BP teams... the ones where vaporeon doesnt have Scald and it works quite well but it isnt a 100% counter although.
I play it with fire blast, substitute, shadow ball and toxic/calm mind and i promise that they got hard time with this, and they won't place espeon (with calm mind) or scollipede in face of chandelure, right ? (putting toxic under their substitute is really priceless lol )
This said, the problem from bp team doesnt come only by the fact that it is hard to deal with it but also for the user of this sort of team, it's not this hard to play (oh, foe put gyarados in front of scollipede while he used baton pass ? lets put vaporeon and place tons of acid armor) So even if it isnt the most used teams, i personally find that it is a bit cheap and need some unorthodox sets to be dealt with, seriously, you won't use haze just for this team as it is almost pointless when you got roar or whirlwind?

Although "we should deal BP teams like we deal other sorts of team", this doesn't work this easily because the excuse "you should be prepared to everyteams" is like " ok prepare yourself to mega gengar, mega lucario, blaziken or mega kanghaskan *

Personally i don't ask for banning BP but maybe decreasing the amount of pokemon having BP in a team or disallow the combo espeon-batonPass but then the problem would be that Espeon can't pass calm mind on it's own, so maybe how about espeon with baton pass and a second baton pass user?
Banning scollipede is imo pointless because he fulfill almost the same role as ninjask although he is more resistant so..

And seriously, you will not force yourself to use frost breath or circle throw just for this, right ? Considering that the distribution is quite poor (ololz using frost breath on vaporeon )

Few strategies and few thinkings are needed when using these teams, well you still need some, but it's quite restricted, its like using swagger : that's only relying on luck.

 

[Flamer]

I feel as a battler, you should be prepared for everything! Some people dont like Malamar Contrary. Some people dont like teams with hazards on almost every pokemon. Baton pass is a legit strategy and easily countered with whirlwind, dragon tail, roar, etc. If you dont equip your mons with these moves, thats your fault, not the person who created his team with this strat. Also, bp is very risky. So why take away a legit strat because some arent prepared for it?

There is a difference in preparing for a normal threat and preparing for BP. In the case of preparing for a normal playstyle/pokemon, you can choose a check/counter. The thing that people seem to immediately forget when they spew out idiotic phrases like "You should be prepared for everything" is that most checks and counters you can choose have other uses when they're not countering what you used them for. Take Sub Kyurem-B for example, lauded as one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. Even when you're not facing Stall, Kyurem still can punch gigantic holes in a team. In the case of "preparing" for BP teams, you're forced to run inferior sets that cannot perform effectively against anything other than BP.

 

[Moneyminty]

Wow, the amount of excuses for not being able to handle bp teams. Get rid of teams full of toxic walls and prankster teams while you're at it.
PS: dont reply trying to justify why bp is bad, heard all of your weak excuses and its really sad "roar gets reflected by Espeon" they have Quagsire with curse trust me ive done it before. Goodbye once a great strat, I see you going away in the future. (sigh)