Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[jbtc10]

If it carried taunt, I could see it, since it isn't exactly common anymore. But, as soon as it starts NP'ing someone in their right mind would switch into their attacker, and stop it. You literally have to be at minimum competent, to stop Thundy before he fires off a +6 TBolt.

Who said he has to be at +6 to tear holes?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even their best fully invested special wall is 2HKO'd after a NP (and they sometimes go physically defensive), so they can't just "switch in and stop you", they're getting smashed by that. All the other things on their team are pretty much 1HKO'd by +2 Thundy, and losing Sylveon can be disastrous for BP if their Espeon doesn't have a secondary attacking move (which it often doesn't because it likes the utility that CM and Substitute offer), since then Bisharp completely walls it, and Zapdos/Vaporeon aren't enough to trouble offense with their relatively feeble attacks.

 

[W1wi]

Who said he has to be at +6 to tear holes?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even their best fully invested special wall is 2HKO'd after a NP (and they sometimes go physically defensive), so they can't just "switch in and stop you", they're getting smashed by that. All the other things on their team are pretty much 1HKO'd by +2 Thundy, and losing Sylveon can be disastrous for BP if their Espeon doesn't have a secondary attacking move (which it often doesn't because it likes the utility that CM and Substitute offer), since then Bisharp completely walls it, and Zapdos/Vaporeon aren't enough to trouble offense with their relatively feeble attacks.

Do you expect that Sylveon won't have any SpD boosts?

 

[rachet67]

Who said he has to be at +6 to tear holes?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even their best fully invested special wall is 2HKO'd after a NP (and they sometimes go physically defensive), so they can't just "switch in and stop you", they're getting smashed by that. All the other things on their team are pretty much 1HKO'd by +2 Thundy, and losing Sylveon can be disastrous for BP if their Espeon doesn't have a secondary attacking move (which it often doesn't because it likes the utility that CM and Substitute offer), since then Bisharp completely walls it, and Zapdos/Vaporeon aren't enough to trouble offense with their relatively feeble attacks.

No one is saying that HO can't beat Baton Pass teams, because it can. Why we're considering banning it, is because against stall and balanced teams, it forces them to run non-optimal sets if they even want a chance at winning. Even if stall teams do run haze Quagsire, they're still at a large disadvantage, as Quagsire can do nothing back, and it's the only thing standing between the BP team and a clean sweep. Without haze Quagsire, they pretty much have a guaranteed loss against BP. No strategy should be able to give you a absolutely certain win, based purely on team matchup, against a competently built team.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Who said he has to be at +6 to tear holes?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even their best fully invested special wall is 2HKO'd after a NP (and they sometimes go physically defensive), so they can't just "switch in and stop you", they're getting smashed by that. All the other things on their team are pretty much 1HKO'd by +2 Thundy, and losing Sylveon can be disastrous for BP if their Espeon doesn't have a secondary attacking move (which it often doesn't because it likes the utility that CM and Substitute offer), since then Bisharp completely walls it, and Zapdos/Vaporeon aren't enough to trouble offense with their relatively feeble attacks.

Like W1wi said, chances are they'll have SpD boosts. The only way Thundy would stop it is if it lead. Which, if DeoD is on the same team, chances are it won't.
I have no idea why people come here and think we're saying it's an unstoppable force. . .

The problem is, it requires you to carry movesets that are uncommon on most Pokemon. Crits can stop it too. . . So, that must mean it isn't ban worthy. . .

EDIT: I ran into a Roar Jolteon, and a Haze Gengar. . . Why on earth am I seeing this? I'll tell you, because BP is becoming more and more of a problem for everyone.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

At first I tried to ignore it. I was like "Oh that's just some gimmick set". But then, after the 4th encounter on my alt account, I knew. I knew this fiend had returned and was trying to reclaim his OU spot with a vengeance. It didn't matter how many boosts BP had acquired, It didn't matter if Espeon's Stored Power was Base 460. It was impossible to destroy this menace.

Hide

+ RED CARD.

Guys, you realize that the only reason Smogon switched to 1760 rating is because they couldn't get this thing to stay in UU. If we don't stop Baton Pass soon, everything done so far will be for naught. The villain will win.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Magic Bounce + Baton Pass seems to be the issue. You can usually beat BP with status. It's true that Scolipede is the reason BP became popular, but without Magic Bounce you can:

• Use Taunt
• Phaze
• Use Haze
• Use Perish Song
• Use Curse

I think that's enough. Those moves together with Unaware Clefable and Quagsire are more than enough to make BP much less viable. If you don't have any of them, it's your fault.

Lol, Haze, Perish Song, and Curse aren't really things that should fall under the "expected" catagory, and phazing is still weakened by ingrain and Mr. Mime. Taunt's good, but you didn't fix the root problem of it being match-up based at all, just made it weaker to more match-ups. That's ok if that's what you wanted, but I don't think that should be the goal of any ban

 

[Nysyr]

I don't see why we can't just get rid of speedboost in its entirety. Its a stupid ability balance wise.

Heck we could even let regular Blaziken back into OU, if we got rid of the cancer that is the speedboost ability (Sorry sharpedo, but sacrifices must be made).

 

[rachet67]

I don't see why we can't just get rid of speedboost in its entirety. Its a stupid ability balance wise.

Heck we could even let regular Blaziken back into OU, if we got rid of the cancer that is the speedboost ability (Sorry sharpedo, but sacrifices must be made).

Or we could stick to just banning what's broken like we've always done, instead of throwing around broad bans like banning speed boost.

 

[Nysyr]

Or we could stick to just banning what's broken like we've always done, instead of throwing around broad bans like banning speed boost.

Except that speedboost is the broken part of baton pass. Ever seen a BP team successfully do what it does without protect + speedboost? Doesn't happen. Agilipass doesn't work the same way, since you can't safely boost 1 stat, or boost 2 in one turn.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I don't see why we can't just get rid of speedboost in its entirety. Its a stupid ability balance wise.

Heck we could even let regular Blaziken back into OU, if we got rid of the cancer that is the speedboost ability (Sorry sharpedo, but sacrifices must be made).

Why don't we just ban shadow tag or just swift swim and sand rush? Abilities and moves are just tools a pokemon uses to be broken. There's exceptions for uncompetitive things like swagger and moody, but we battle pokemon, not abilities.

You do have a point, but it's just not the way we do things.

 

[Nysyr]

Why don't we just ban shadow tag or just swift swim and sand rush? Abilities and moves are just tools a pokemon uses to be broken. There's exceptions for uncompetitive things like swagger and moody, but we battle pokemon, not abilities.

You do have a point, but it's just not the way we do things.

We currently have no compex bans in This gen, and I'm fairly sure they aren't looking to implement another. Banning speedboost, Batonpass, or Magic bounce as a whole are the 3 options they will most highly consider. Getting rid of Speedboost is the simplest way to nerf Baton pass.

So I have no idea where you got the "not how we do things" part of that. 5th gen Drizzleswim ban was an exception among exceptions.

I think that Espeon (more specifically Magic Bounce) is what breaks Baton Pass. It prevents Taunt, phasing (even Dragon Tail and Circle Throw because Espeon always carries Substitute.), and status. Mix in a few Speed Boosts and Iron Defenses from Scolipede, and you're essentially fucked. All you can really do at that point is pray for a really strong critical hit. Even then, it needs to be a Powerhouse to break Espeon's defensive EVs.

So my ideal solution would be to ban Baton Pass + Magic Bounce, so that Baton Pass can still be used but without Magic Bounce to mitigate its counters.

I personally do not think that Speed Boost alone breaks Baton Pass, since there's nothing really that's unstoppable after a few Speed Boosts. It can also be stopped easily with phasing.

Heres the problem. The reason Espeon can get away with what it does is because Scoli can Pass espeon speed and defence in one go extremely reliable, which allows it to get around things that could initially kill it. Get rid of that speed, and then espeon isn't such a big deal anymore, and can't safely pass its @ss outta bad situations.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I think that Espeon (more specifically Magic Bounce) is what breaks Baton Pass. It prevents Taunt, phasing (even Dragon Tail and Circle Throw because Espeon always carries Substitute.), and status. Mix in a few Speed Boosts and Iron Defenses from Scolipede, and you're essentially fucked. All you can really do at that point is pray for a really strong critical hit. Even then, it needs to be a Powerhouse to break Espeon's defensive EVs.
So my ideal solution would be to ban Baton Pass + Magic Bounce, so that Baton Pass can still be used but without Magic Bounce to mitigate its counters.
I personally do not think that Speed Boost alone breaks Baton Pass, since there's nothing really that's unstoppable after a few Speed Boosts. It can also be stopped easily with phasing.

I don't see why we can't just get rid of speedboost in its entirety. Its a stupid ability balance wise.

Heck we could even let regular Blaziken back into OU, if we got rid of the cancer that is the speedboost ability (Sorry sharpedo, but sacrifices must be made).

Because Ninjask, Sharpedo, Combusken, etc. aren't broken. Scolipede isn't either until paired with Espeon.

 

[Nysyr]

And Espeon isn't broken paired with any other pokemon that doesn't include speed boost. And yes scoli can be broken paired with other pokemon. Just setup and pass to some redic powerful sweeper. Someone comically during the suspect test for kanga was using baton pass to Kanga and Kyu-B and winning nearly every game.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

And Espeon isn't broken paired with any other pokemon that doesn't include speed boost.

The same can be said for literally EVERY other possible ban/nerf.
Well, Scoli isn't broken. Neither is Espeon. Neither is BP. Neither is Speed Boost, or magic bounce.

We need to stop acting like one Pokemon is responsible for BP being "Broken". It's the team as a whole.

 

[rachet67]

Except that speedboost is the broken part of baton pass. Ever seen a BP team successfully do what it does without protect + speedboost? Doesn't happen. Agilipass doesn't work the same way, since you can't safely boost 1 stat, or boost 2 in one turn.

If we decide that Scoliopede is breaking BP by itself (which I would argue that it isn't), we'll ban Scoliopede. We don't ban abilities unless the abilities themselves are broken, rather than the mon they're on (for example many people wanted drizzle banned, not because politoed was seen as broken, but because drizzle was).

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

We currently have no compex bans in This gen, and I'm fairly sure they aren't looking to implement another. Banning speedboost, Batonpass, or Magic bounce as a whole are the 3 options they will most highly consider. Getting rid of Speedboost is the simplest way to nerf Baton pass.

So I have no idea where you got the "not how we do things" part of that. 5th gen Drizzleswim ban was an exception among exceptions.

Where did I give the impression that I thought a complex ban was needed? What I actually think needs to happen is a ban of Scolipede, because it's his support that breaks BP (I think we agree on that). Ninjask isn't broken, and let's not pretend there's anything wrong with Yanmega or Sharpedo. As far as I know, abilities CAN'T be broken, only pokemon and pokemon combinations.

And don't even bring up "Drizzleswim," because rain in gen 5 is undeniably one of the worst things to happen to competitive battling

I think that Espeon (more specifically Magic Bounce) is what breaks Baton Pass. It prevents Taunt, phasing (even Dragon Tail and Circle Throw because Espeon always carries Substitute.), and status. Mix in a few Speed Boosts and Iron Defenses from Scolipede, and you're essentially fucked. All you can really do at that point is pray for a really strong critical hit. Even then, it needs to be a Powerhouse to break Espeon's defensive EVs.
So my ideal solution would be to ban Baton Pass + Magic Bounce, so that Baton Pass can still be used but without Magic Bounce to mitigate its counters.
I personally do not think that Speed Boost alone breaks Baton Pass, since there's nothing really that's unstoppable after a few Speed Boosts. It can also be stopped easily with phasing.

Read this post:

[By banning Espeon] you didn't fix the root problem of it [Baton Pass] being match-up based at all, just made it weaker to more match-ups. That's ok if that's what you wanted, but I don't think that should be the goal of any ban

I'm open to reasons why I'm wrong, but I don't think I am

Edit:
Thank you whoever deleted that terrible post after mine.

tennisedit: you're welcome

 

[GoldenSandslash15]

We currently have no compex bans in This gen, and I'm fairly sure they aren't looking to implement another. Banning speedboost, Batonpass, or Magic bounce as a whole are the 3 options they will most highly consider. Getting rid of Speedboost is the simplest way to nerf Baton pass.

The problem with that is that Speed Boost isn't broken on EVERYTHING that gets it. I challenge you to use a Torchic in OU and tell me that it deserves to be banned.

By comparison, Moody as an ability was broken in OU even on a simple Bidoof, and Drought was broken even on Vulpix in UU, so these things were banned from their respective tiers.

With Speed Boost, though:

* Blaziken - Broken
* Carvanha - Not broken
* Combusken - Not broken
* Ninjask - Not broken
* Scolipede - Broken
* Sharpedo - Not broken
* Torchic - Not broken
* Venipede - Not broken
* Whirlipede - Not broken
* Yanma - Not broken
* Yanmega - Not broken

There's far more that is not broken with Speed Boost than there is with it. The best solution, honestly, would be to ban Scolipede, imo.

 

[KztxL7]

The problem with that is that Speed Boost isn't broken on EVERYTHING that gets it. I challenge you to use a Torchic in OU and tell me that it deserves to be banned.

By comparison, Moody as an ability was broken in OU even on a simple Bidoof, and Drought was broken even on Vulpix in UU, so these things were banned from their respective tiers.

With Speed Boost, though:

* Blaziken - Broken
* Carvanha - Not broken
* Combusken - Not broken
* Ninjask - Not broken
* Scolipede - Broken
* Sharpedo - Not broken
* Torchic - Not broken
* Venipede - Not broken
* Whirlipede - Not broken
* Yanma - Not broken
* Yanmega - Not broken

There's far more that is not broken with Speed Boost than there is with it. The best solution, honestly, would be to ban Scolipede, imo.

Scolipede is not a broken Pokemon outside of Baton Pass.

Haze works just fine for countering baton pass. Also you can use clear smog. Neither haze or clear smog get bounced back with magic bounce. If you have a Bisharp, here is a good idea. First turn, use taunt when the scolpead uses protect. Then go for knock off and that Espeon (most players wont send in Espeon, but you could kill something)

You didn't even bother reading 10 or even 5 pages of the thread. Did you?

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

If you have ditto, your opponent is screwed.

Ditto is blocked by substitute.

 

[hurricane1414]

Baton pass on one pokemon, even espeon or scolipede, is not broken and easily countered. Banning baton pass on more than one pokemon per team would serve to prevent BP teams from annoyingly dominating while still allowing creativity and flexibility to have a single baton passer of your choice per team.

 

[Petrico94]

Baton pass on one pokemon, even espeon or scolipede, is not broken and easily countered. Banning baton pass on more than one pokemon per team would serve to prevent BP teams from annoyingly dominating while still allowing creativity and flexibility to have a single baton passer of your choice per team.

Setting a limit to baton pass would certainly fix chains but then we would never know how effective 3 or 4 per team was and if that would be enough. I also feel it's not needed to target a specific pokemon's contribution to baton pass teams as the reason why they can't be stopped. If we limit the people who can keep the chain alive it will cause some of those important defenses to be left out or cause a lack of coverage in the pokemon who are sharing their buffs.

 

[Quick]

Baton Pass doesn't need to be "nerfed", let alone banned; I made an alt and decided to use a really cheap baton pass team, and I got curbstomped. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112291911

This replay proved nothing except that if there were a rating cap for this discussion you wouldn't be allowed in here. BP still requires SOME amount of skill, even if its less than other playstyles. You have to at least know not to let your scolipede get nuked by Nidoking and not to send special walls in against physical threats and physical walls to soak special hits...

I feel as a battler, you should be prepared for everything! Some people dont like Malamar Contrary. Some people dont like teams with hazards on almost every pokemon. Baton pass is a legit strategy and easily countered with whirlwind, dragon tail, roar, etc. If you dont equip your mons with these moves, thats your fault, not the person who created his team with this strat. Also, bp is very risky. So why take away a legit strat because some arent prepared for it?

Hold up there Ash Ketchum, just because an obvious Pokemaster like you can easily counter baton pass doesn't mean everyone can.

Wow, the amount of excuses for not being able to handle bp teams. Get rid of teams full of toxic walls and prankster teams while you're at it.
PS: dont reply trying to justify why bp is bad, heard all of your weak excuses and its really sad "roar gets reflected by Espeon" they have Quagsire with curse trust me ive done it before. Goodbye once a great strat, I see you going away in the future. (sigh)

Oh, so you don't want us to reply to you calling out your BS because you already have heard why your opinion is not substantiated by facts and it makes you sad? And what was that last bit about curse Quagsire??? If you dislike discussion you shouldn't have posted in here to begin with.

 

[Regeneraide]

A team shouldn't have a main star and have all others boost its performance. A good team have good synergy, meaning one Pokemon should cover another weakness, baton pass makes it so that one Pokemon is sweeping while the others are support, they have no synergy and baton pass teams aren't gonna help someone win the vgc. Prankster is a counter yes, but not every Pokemon is open to this ability, and the other team will just rage quit from the battle. Baton pass should be banned to gel p the rest of the community

 

[Of Moose & Men]

A team shouldn't have a main star and have all others boost its performance. A good team have good synergy, meaning one Pokemon should cover another weakness, baton pass makes it so that one Pokemon is sweeping while the others are support, they have no synergy and baton pass teams aren't gonna help someone win the vgc. Prankster is a counter yes, but not every Pokemon is open to this ability, and the other team will just rage quit from the battle. Baton pass should be banned to gel p the rest of the community

Uhm, most times a team starts centered around a Pokemon. You start with one, pick another that covers its weakness and supports it, and so on. But, I see what you're attempting to say.

We're not talking VGC, so that's in no way relevant.

 

[Riolupe Fiasco]

I have read a large amount of the thread and get the gist of the arguments for and against PB's brokenness.
What I haven't seen is people questioning what makes BP so different this gen than last gen.

If I'm not missing something huge, the only big differences are Scolipede, Sylveon, and (lol) Mr. Mime.
I don't see Scolipede as the reason that BP is broken now (at all), but.. if he is the only "broken" addition, then what does that tell us?
(Not a rhetorical question. I would genuinely appreciate an answer.)