The difference now is that it's much easier for BP teams to get defensive boosts, which when paired with Speed is all that Espeon needs to boost Stored Power to obscene levels and sweep opponents.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
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The difference now is that it's much easier for BP teams to get defensive boosts, which when paired with Speed is all that Espeon needs to boost Stored Power to obscene levels and sweep opponents.
Several things contributed to the rise of BP. The first is the weather nerf. BP teams couldn't handle a weather infested wetagame (get it?) rife with Rain boosted Hydro Pumps and Sun Boosted Fire Blasts. Now that weather has been nerfed, BP teams have a much easier time getting defensive boosts.
Scolipede is a huge contributor to BPs brokeness. With Scoli, getting Speed Boosts is trivial while at the same time boosting defense, unlike ninjask, who struggled to boost. This means that BP is almost impossible to stop after a few turns.
The rest of the members you mentioned aren't really broken but they prevent any way to phase the opponent or break through with special attacks. Combine this with Stored power and its gg.
A few other factors contributed (ie Special nerf) but those are the main ones
Alright. That problem specifically is what makes BP broken this gen and that problem specifically is not solved by limiting the number of baton passers on a team.
Just my piece of mind for the majority which is in favor of a limit.
The playstyle has lived up until now with no complaint, so I hope that it is not destroyed unnecessarily because of players who are now so adamant against it.
There are loads of ways to fix its brokenness, and all ultimately come down to preference.. Something must be done about either/both Espeon and/or Scolipede.
Speed Boost/BP ban?
Speed Boost/Magic Bounce?
If defense is the problem, then BP+Iron Defense? Leaves other boosting moves such as water veil open.
Perhaps a more complex ban like Scolipede on a team with 2+ passers? Leaves quick passing open. Kills the chain everyone hates.
Flamer said:
So essentially, the lowered power of the metagame has also contributed indirectly to BP's relevance. I would argue that while this is beneficial, it is not enough to matter because it similarly (prolly moreso) boosted stall. And no one is complaining about those, but that's neither here nor there.
In my eyes, Scolipede is still on the hot seat.
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These kinds of posts are pretty much irrelevant. Rather than discussing whether there are counters doesn't matter. What we should be discussing is whether it is neccesary to run those counters or not, and if so, what to do about it. Note that nerfing dedicated BP teams is different from nerfing stall teams or prankster teams or whatever because those teams are not broken. They do not require you to run obscure counters or dedicate your team to being anti-whatever to have any chance of beating them. That's the difference. That's why BP needs a nerf. What exactly the ban should be, I have no idea.
Scolipede's support is only broken when an entire BP team receives it. Everyone agrees this pokemon is not broken, so why not ban the combination?
There is a thick line between "how should baton pass teams be nerfed" and "which nerf would the council like the most". Pretty sure this thread's discussion should be based on the former, but so far the best argument towards a scoli ban instead of BP limit of 2~3 seems to be "we ban pokemon, deal with it".
Who do you want to take the collateral damage : anyone wanting to use the fattest bug or that one player that was playing a full BP team in a non-problematic way?
Even if you think simple bans are worth all the collateral in the world, this will be far from simple to do because Scolipede needs to be defined as the one and only thing that pushes BP over the edge. What if Sylveon, the great Espeon-counter counter could also kill BP teams if removed? What about Smeargle and his sashed Spores? Also Espeon. Sorry.
Yes, I agree with you that an Espeon ban would only increase the ammount of checks against BP, not prevent instawins from team preview, but it helps massively.
No stored power (at least not on top of magic bounce) means they need to buff offenses before one shotting everything, so that alone gives you many more turns.
No magic bounce means hazards such as toxic spikes will start tearing holes or give free turns, plus pokemon with infiltrator statuses, non-haze unaware, encore, non-prankster taunt etc will stop being useless. Roar/whirlwind is also much harder to avoid unless they lead with Smeargle.
No Espeons means A LOT more matches will be skill based instead of over at turn 0, simply because general utility now actually works, so perhaps the point where you are not expected to pack one of the checks for BP might be crossed, therefore Espeon should be suspected too if complex bans are just too damn ugly with clear skies.
Maybe I am just too biased towards being able to use fun pokes instead of ruinning everyone's day for the sake of tradition, dunno.
Multiple reasons. Some have been outlined above, but I'll add a few more and elaborate.
1. Weather Nerf - Why bother jumping through all the hoops to get +1 or +2 boosts per round, when by switching in one Poke you get instant boosts to your whole team? Rain-boosted Water attacks, Sun-boosted Fire attacks, and Sand's SpD boosts + residual damage all contributed to an environment where BP teams were just outclassed and overwhelmed. It was too easy to break BP chains by OHKOing the individual users.
2. Defog Buff + death of Spin Blocking - It was trivial to get Stealth Rock in Gen IV and V. Hazard stacking was even viable. However, in Gen VI a lot of people don't bother setting up hazards anymore thanks to it being so easy to remove them, and besides Espeon could even make it a liability by bouncing it back. Without hazards in play, BP teams can freely pass between members without taking damage each time.
3. Scolipede getting Speed Boost - Scolipede is a serious upgrade over previous mons in the slot of BP Lead/Speed passer. Only Speed Boost Blaziken is better, but that's because he can start wrecking on his own and start a BP chain if he runs into something he can't wreck. Scoli also has great synergy with both Sylveon and Espeon, as they cover each other's common weaknesses both type-wise and stat-wise.
4. Sylveon and Mr. Mime getting the Fairy-typing- Sylveon gives the team a crucial immunity to Dragon type attacks, notably Dragon Tail, rendering moot the one form of phazing that Espeon and Mr. Mime's Soundproof couldn't block before. This means BP teams no longer have to rely on Smeargle's Ingrain (or, in some cases, not run Smeargle at all) to keep their chains. Sylveon also makes for an excellent BP receiver, as his Pixillated Hypervoice + Stored Power wrecks almost everything in the meta.
5. Special attacks getting nerfed - this, combined with the weather nerf, means there are far fewer attacks that can OHKO BP users even after a couple of Special Def boosts. This also means getting SpDef boosts aren't as crucial anymore, and BP teams are free to also boost Def.
All this talk about Scolipede. Here's a thing to consider: BP teams that LACK Scolipede. You know, those teams that have to Agility pass or use Ninjask? Are these just as hard to deal with?
IIRC, without Pede, there's Jolteon and Zapdos to use Agility, Vaporeon and Glaceon to use Acid Armor or Barrier, and maybe Leafeon and Mawile to Swords Dance, yes?
It takes at least three of them to do what Pede can do in TWO TURNS.
While I hate banning anything, perhaps the place to start is Scolipede. No matter how you slice it, there will be collateral. Forget all your traditions and junk cause there's a first time for everything
IIRC, without Pede, there's Jolteon and Zapdos to use Agility, Vaporeon and Glaceon to use Acid Armor or Barrier, and maybe Leafeon and Mawile to Swords Dance, yes?
It takes at least three of them to do what Pede can do in TWO TURNS.
While I hate banning anything, perhaps the place to start is Scolipede. No matter how you slice it, there will be collateral. Forget all your traditions and junk cause there's a first time for everything
While I am neutral to Baton Pass' effect on the metagame, I oppose a simple solution like banning a Pokemon, because there's too many routes the strategy could take. But if there can only be one ban I'm backing a Scolipede ban. Setting up with Scoli takes nothing more than removing the T-Flame/Flying-type (Scoli can afford an attacking move to beat out things like Heatran) and protect/sub away. (granted, I haven't ever laddered above 1450, so take this with a grain of salt.) There are a multitude of problems with this, however:
1. Scolipede is way weak to Stealth Rock and common attacking types
2. SD 'pede is f***** by Foul Play, which is usually used to stop threats such as Scizor and Physical Mega Venusaur
3. While it can run attacking moves, its moveset requires Protect and Baton Pass just for viability. By the time you put up your boosting moves and/or substitute, you won't have a lot of room on your moveset. But hey, you're fast as hell...!
But the more complex solution, as mentioned by a few, would be banning Espeon and Scolipede on the same team. I haven't heard anything from the forums about a Sylveon, Vaporeon, or Mr. Mime ban (maybe Ingrain on Smeargle was considered because it was Gen III's solution), but that these two are by far the most discussed, and it's easy to see why. 'Pede sending in a ridiculous number of boosts to anti-stall, Stored Power Espeon, through team support or not, is exactly why people are disgusted at defensive and full Baton Pass chains. It could absolutely divert, but as of now, splitting those two makes the strategy much easier for other playstyles to handle.
That's the vibe I'm getting here.
1. Scolipede is way weak to Stealth Rock and common attacking types
2. SD 'pede is f***** by Foul Play, which is usually used to stop threats such as Scizor and Physical Mega Venusaur
3. While it can run attacking moves, its moveset requires Protect and Baton Pass just for viability. By the time you put up your boosting moves and/or substitute, you won't have a lot of room on your moveset. But hey, you're fast as hell...!
But the more complex solution, as mentioned by a few, would be banning Espeon and Scolipede on the same team. I haven't heard anything from the forums about a Sylveon, Vaporeon, or Mr. Mime ban (maybe Ingrain on Smeargle was considered because it was Gen III's solution), but that these two are by far the most discussed, and it's easy to see why. 'Pede sending in a ridiculous number of boosts to anti-stall, Stored Power Espeon, through team support or not, is exactly why people are disgusted at defensive and full Baton Pass chains. It could absolutely divert, but as of now, splitting those two makes the strategy much easier for other playstyles to handle.
That's the vibe I'm getting here.
Jesus, a lot of the last couple of pages has just been people who clearly haven't read the rest of the thread or ever faced a competent BP user telling me things like "Red card ditto can fit on any team". Shout outs to Kairyu_Gen1 for actually replying to these people intelligently. I think this discussion has started going in circles with our main options being
Ban more than X BP Users
Ban Scolipede and or Espeon (or combo of two)
Ban baton pass/speed boost or other ability combo.
Null option
I'd be interested to hear justification for other options, provided it makes sense.
Ban more than X BP Users
Ban Scolipede and or Espeon (or combo of two)
Ban baton pass/speed boost or other ability combo.
Null option
I'd be interested to hear justification for other options, provided it makes sense.
I completely agree that defensive boosts are the problem here, in previous gens, the chain started with 0 defensive boosts and as such was much easier to take down.
The weather nerf boosted Stall by leaps and bounds, however, any amount of smart plays and mons with offensive prowess can eventually beat stall, unlike BP, which can only be truly beaten in the first 3 turns.
EDIT
In my opinion, Scolipede really does not deserve to be banned because of its impact on a playstyle. I understand that the simplest way of doing things is often the best but honestly,the best thing to do would have to be something that prevents Scoli and BP in general from having Defensive boosts that snowball out of control. This is why I am asking everyone to consider either BP+Defensive Boosting Move(Not moves like CM or Curse) or Speed Boost+Defense Boosting Move The first of these is stops BP completely from getting those Gigantic +2 boosts and the second just stops Scolipede, both do not cause any collateral to Scolipede and Quickpass as well as hopefully nerfing Full BP to the extent that its much more manageable.
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Yeah! I concede to that. The problem with it being so strong right from the start lies in Scolipede. Smeargle/Ninjask can set up similarly, but preparing for a them in my eyes is is pretty basic (and they, just like most other BPers, were present in other gens where BP was fine).
I'll chime in with everyone saying that BP is just another threat that should be prepared for. With the elimination of key aspects, it becomes reasonably counterable just like any other play style.
Whatever that elimination may be, whether defense moves, speed boost, bounce, etc, or a combination of a few, as long as a team is not limited in BP users I will be happy.
I think Speed Boost + Baton Pass should be banned and whether Ninjask is counted in or out should be the next point of discussion.
Speed Boost can be abused to get outrageously high speed via boosting. However, these speed boosts should not be free and should be only accessable through boosting moves for the following reasons:
1. Speed boosts allow Baton Pass Teams to not have to worry about going second, which is the main weakness to Baton Pass teams, since a fast Baton Pass allows fast switches to counters.
2. Speed boosts allow Espeon (who already has Magic Bounce) to abuse Stored Powers (given x4 Speed) starting at 100 base power.
3. Speed boosts allow a pokemon to outspeed counters. While this may be related to the first, it is important because counters can be nullified just by the fact they cannot get a move out because their opponent goes first.
4. This considerable amount of power should not be given out for free.
You can't just give a single Ability access to all of this without being overpowered, can you? Whether or not this is what makes Baton Pass seem broken, I think this is a logical and educated first step to nerfing Baton Pass without going too overboard.
Speed Boost can be abused to get outrageously high speed via boosting. However, these speed boosts should not be free and should be only accessable through boosting moves for the following reasons:
1. Speed boosts allow Baton Pass Teams to not have to worry about going second, which is the main weakness to Baton Pass teams, since a fast Baton Pass allows fast switches to counters.
2. Speed boosts allow Espeon (who already has Magic Bounce) to abuse Stored Powers (given x4 Speed) starting at 100 base power.
3. Speed boosts allow a pokemon to outspeed counters. While this may be related to the first, it is important because counters can be nullified just by the fact they cannot get a move out because their opponent goes first.
4. This considerable amount of power should not be given out for free.
You can't just give a single Ability access to all of this without being overpowered, can you? Whether or not this is what makes Baton Pass seem broken, I think this is a logical and educated first step to nerfing Baton Pass without going too overboard.
The problem I have with that is it gets intrusive. Baton Pass + Speed Boost is not broken, it only is/might be on all out BP teams.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed mentions of deleted posts.
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How so?
Can we get on topic? I get it's discriminating but let's not bring it here.
So many people are supplying possible bans, but the problem is it doesn't remove it all in one fell swoop. You ban Speed Boost, it is slightly more difficult to set up as many boosts in one turn. It doesn't get rid of the simplicity it takes to boost up. Instead of starting with scolipede, you know start with Jolteon. It doesn't remove the problem.
So many people are supplying possible bans, but the problem is it doesn't remove it all in one fell swoop. You ban Speed Boost, it is slightly more difficult to set up as many boosts in one turn. It doesn't get rid of the simplicity it takes to boost up. Instead of starting with scolipede, you know start with Jolteon. It doesn't remove the problem.
Baton Pass + Speed Boost is not broken, it only is/might be on all out BP teams. QuickPass Scolipede is viable and is not broken. QuickPass Combusken is good in RU. Banning Speed Boost + Baton Pass intrudes on viable strategies. It would stop the problem, but in my opinion the best solution would only aim to affect all out BP teams.
That makes sense. Scolipede shouldnt be in OU. Just because of BP. Espeon onthe otherhand has magic bounce and when combined with baton pass it can get deadly. Are we able to ban BP only on Espeon, or is that not possible?
Wouldn't the simplest ban be against iron defense? It sounds silly, but we've banned specific moves all the time before and i does the job of necessitating a pass to Vaporeon before defense boosts occur. I doubt any other team archtype would miss it.
We keep talking in circles. . .
Banning a move that alone isn't broken, is not necessary. Unfortunately, if there were to be a ban, it'd probably be best to be a complex ban.
BP is not a broken "strategy" because of one Pokemon. It's broken because it's an entire team working together. Banning one move, or Pokemon, doesn't quite remove the problem like people think it would. It just makes it slightly more difficult to do.
I've said this before in one of my previous posts, and I'll reiterate.
We need to stop acting like one Pokemon is responsible for BP being "Broken". It's the team as a whole.
Banning a move that alone isn't broken, is not necessary. Unfortunately, if there were to be a ban, it'd probably be best to be a complex ban.
BP is not a broken "strategy" because of one Pokemon. It's broken because it's an entire team working together. Banning one move, or Pokemon, doesn't quite remove the problem like people think it would. It just makes it slightly more difficult to do.
I've said this before in one of my previous posts, and I'll reiterate.
We need to stop acting like one Pokemon is responsible for BP being "Broken". It's the team as a whole.
You know, I had this bad feeling when people found out Scolipede's new HA was Speed Boost that they'd complain for him to get banned eventually.
A legitimate question, why can't people just switch from Scolipede to Whirlipede? Whirl trades his massive starting speed and item for considerably more bulk, possibly guaranteeing even more boosts to pass. Does anyone have a replay with someone using Whirlipede to see if it even changes anything?
A legitimate question, why can't people just switch from Scolipede to Whirlipede? Whirl trades his massive starting speed and item for considerably more bulk, possibly guaranteeing even more boosts to pass. Does anyone have a replay with someone using Whirlipede to see if it even changes anything?
This is why:
I'm NOT advocating for a Scolipede ban. I'm just saying, what it does, nothing else can.
Speaking as someone who uses a BP team with Jolteon as a lead, not having Scolipede as the lead alleviates the "problem" a great deal. Jolteon has to manually boost and can only provide Agility and Work Up. While she does resist fly spam, and packs decent offensive presence, she's also incredibly frail to other attacks. A focus sash is pretty much mandatory for any lead Jolteon and usually after you get your agility off and pass away, you're already down to said sash, so if hazards get on there, you're screwed.
Scolipede is like, the god of baton passing. It does several stats at once, and can even rack up boosts by doing nothing. Furthermore, if all else fails, it has good enough stats to just start busting heads on its own right.
Espeon is only ever out when it's at +6 all. You need a crit to break through it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 109-133 (32.6 - 39.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 74-90 (22.1 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Plus, Espeon can BP to Sylveon to take like 1% from the dark move, and easily KO with +6 hyper voice.
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